The Exponentialist: Fireside Chat ft. David Mattin, September 2024

30:25It's mind-blowing. I find this the most mind-blowing dimension. The base Beth Jesus guy, I mean, he's building biological compute. Yeah. And he's advanced. I read his feed and you see him say, oh, my God, everything has just changed. And you know what they're cooking because you're seeing as well. You've written essays that this is not one guy in his lab. There are thousands of people working on this. One thing is how do we use matter to compute? Live matter. Exactly. And like when, you know, one part of the essay where, you know, I talk about these brain organoids growing from human neurons, and you find ways to sort of get them to perform computations you want by rewarding them.

31:14And the new way they found to reward them is to flood them with dopamine. So, you know, the pleasure chemical, it's like, oh, my God. So we literally, it's like something out of Brave New World. I mean, Aldous Huxley, you have to give him credit. Go and read that, everyone, if you want to. I must reread that because I've not read it for 30 years. Yeah, it's always worth a reread because it's incredibly pressing in an interesting way. But yeah, I mean, okay, so we're going to run AI off human neurons. We're going to meter its exposure to dopamine to get it to do what we want. It's incredible, also terrifying.

31:49Also, immediately you start to think, you know, is that okay? You know, is it okay to sort of enslave human neurons and either flood them with dopamine or not to get the rewards you want? um but you don't mind you know you can cut your nails and you don't worry about it but if you're using them for compute you're like oh my god we're using you know we frame things in weird ways as humans you can cut your hair off and you're like well i didn't kill a bunch of neurons and atoms and all of that stuff but if i run compute through human hair let's say i was like oh my god this is preposterous this is this is inhumane like yeah well it's a very gray area yeah it's it's and we're gonna you know we're going and i mean us as a society we're going to need to have these conversations and in 10 years these maybe less you know these will be mainstream conversations and we can put this out on youtube in whatever form that exists then and say look we weren't nuts We weren't just like talking science fiction.

32:57You know, these things really have become mainstream issues. To bring this back down to earth a little bit. You know, another huge thing on my mind, reading Altman's The Intelligence Age. I'd really encourage people to go to read that against Mark Zuckerberg's big AI kind of treaties. I mean, again, I say big, like significant. It wasn't super long. Open source AI is the path forward. Because growing in my mind now is something I've been thinking about for a long time, is the realization that, you know, AI is the next big computing platform. And one of the ways that story is going to play out is an absolutely titanic clash between open and closed philosophies, just like we saw with the PC era and, you know, PC versus Mac.

33:48And we saw with the mobile era with, you know, Apple and Android. We're going to see this titanic battle and an even more consequential battle of open versus closed philosophies. And, you know, and I've said this before to the community. It's so unexpected the way Mark Zuckerberg has now risen as the kind of great, inspiring hope of this open, decentralized, ultra democratized AI future. He's absolutely played a blinder from the 2016 Mark Zuckerberg, who was kind of hated and Cambridge Analytica and Facebook's destroying democracy. I know there's still a lot of that out there. And not all of it was illegitimate, but he is now like 180 to being the kind of great hope of a non-sort of deeply corporate, non-centralized, open future for AI.

34:40What he needed was competition. He had no competition as Facebook. Largest network in the world. Yeah. And now he's in a fight. And suddenly the guy changes his wardrobe, change how he looks, change how he talks. He's like, he's fucking in it, as you say. He's in it to win it. Again, Sam Altman, who feels dangerous in comparison to Zuckerberg, who are both approaching it in different ways. Yeah, yeah, exactly. It feels that the next great computing platform is becoming a battle between, to a certain extent, Altman, Zuckerberg, representing open versus closed. And I want to write, you know, we were talking before the show, you know, know, it's GMI is coming up.

35:26I want to write a bit about this in GMI this month, try to sort of shake out my thinking on this, because I think it's hugely consequential. Of course, again, I'll bring it to the exponentialists. I think the entire community needs to understand it there. Because, you know, part of my position is Altman's piece is very inspiring and big picture. And he says lots of, you know, exciting things about AI. Zuckerberg is actually a much, has a much more coherent, rounded philosophy around why open source AI is better for his company and better for everyone. Because Altman doesn't want you to know anything.

36:07You know, they're two different ways, right? And he is the leader and he has a lot of secrets. They've clearly built unbelievable technology and their roadmap is probably two years ahead of where we are today. So his job is to say nothing, and everybody else's job is to compete with him. And it's interesting. The other thing is in the middle of all of this, you see this, and then you see Elon in the fray and Google in the fray and everybody else. And there's one arms dealer, which is NVIDIA. There's a single arms dealer funding both sides of the war or profiting from both sides of the war. And it seems like that's not going to stop.

36:52I thought everyone would say, we've ordered all our chips, we don't need to do them. They're like, no, that was just the start. We need to order a shit ton squared of chips to keep going. Because even Sam Altman said, the miracle we've discovered is that we just keep adding compute and it gets smarter. Yeah. So what he's telling you there is NVIDIA is going to be an endless, array of people buying. Yeah, what an incredible company and what an incredible story. And it just looks, you know, all the stuff about, you know, a few months ago, everyone's saying, well, is NVIDIA the new Cisco and what's going to happen?

37:31It just, I just, yeah, I cannot see it. I can only see good things for NVIDIA for the foreseeable, because like you say, the thirst at the moment for, Or the thirst for chips is just insane. No one can match them right now. They're 18 months, two years ahead, which is like forever ahead at the moment. They have this deep relationship with TSMC. The TSMC fabs are all kind of fitted out to make the NVIDIA stuff. And they've just been so clever about managing that relationship. They're talking to TSMC about what's coming in 18 months so that TSMC can prepare the fabs for that. And then no one else can get a foot in the door or much of a foothold on that relationship.

38:20And it just keeps them so far ahead. I mean, look at and then look at I wrote about Intel. I mean, I've written about Intel in the Exponentialist and GMI saying, you know, this is becoming really interesting because the Chips Act is going to throw$12 billion at Intel. the American government desperately needs Intel to succeed because, you know, this quote, proper countries make their own chips or all this stuff. But, you know, it's difficult. And you see it this month, it's struggling. It's not going to be an easy ride. And NVIDIA are just the only game in town right now. A couple of other things I want to talk about before we go to questions as well is the other thing is this is moving so fast and everybody's got a race and there's different tools to use and different use cases of AI, and every two months it's changing.

39:11I just don't understand how businesses can build. I just don't understand how you commit to AI. Because everything you do is out of date, not by a bit, but a massive factor every two or three months. it's really difficult to know you know to skate to where the puck is going you have no idea where the puck is going and you know every time we see all these startups destroyed but it's not just startups it's like how are you if you're General Electric going to put AI in

39:53I mean you can't yeah they don't know everything you do because you're a huge corporate is going to be five years out of date in minutes. Yeah. They don't know. And they're trying really hard to figure it out. And they feel totally lost. And I have some sense of that because at the moment, all my consulting is large organizations coming to me and saying exactly what you just said. Like, please help us try to start to make sense of what this means for us and how we use it and how we talk to our people about it and how we explain it to our people. And I guess that informs my sort of frustration with the markets and some of the narrative you get, right?

40:37Which is like, oh, it hasn't shown up in the productivity numbers yet. This is all hype. It's not going to work. It's like, guys, they're still figuring it out. They will figure it out, you know, actually. I'm not sure they will. But it's going to take time. But the chances are, because of the bureaucratic mess of trying to get something through a big company is that they may never get they may never get there well some of them won't some of them won't yeah i'm sure there'll be some casualties and it's very hard right now i mean you saw another thing that happened this month you saw microsoft launch like wave two they're calling it of co-pilot right and the most interesting thing about Wave 2 is co-pilot agents.

41:22So this is a new form of co-pilot that doesn't just sit there waiting for you to sort of have a conversation with it and ask it questions. It just autonomously does things and you can build your own agents really easily. So you can build an agent that, for example, will take your inbound customer inquiries and sort of, and read those emails and do problem solving and just email them back. Yeah. And, or just takes data, puts it into a spreadsheet does what you do with it and kind of outputs that to the whole marketing team every month or whatever. And it just does it autonomously. And you can build that by just describing the agent you want to co-pilot.

42:00And look at that. I mean, again, this is another thing I read and thought, Raoul and I have been talking about this for a while. We've been talking about agents for a while. Here they are now. They're really arriving. They're going to smash into the corporate world that I spend a lot of my time inside. And that's going to really start to bite and it will change the way people work. And it will be much more consequential for the labor market. We're going to start to see some of these labor market implications because that's people's jobs. Salesforce says the future of its business is to have millions of agents.

42:33Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Salesforce announced a load of agent capability this month too, and a partnership with Google so that the agents can get into Google workspaces and do stuff for you. But he's saying that's the future of the company. It's like, you've got all this architecture, all of it's irrelevant. Agents are going to do everything for you. And that's the end of that. And it's like, holy shit. The other thing that's really important on this topic is I'm starting to think we've seen the big tech people move from left political leanings to right. And I've been watching this with interest, and obviously it's self-interest and blah, blah, blah, but generally they've not moved from left to right for self-interest.

43:22But they've all seemed to be getting behind a candidate they don't really care about, they don't really care about Donald Trump. But I think what they think is the next four years, is the make or break. Within four years, blockchain goes from wherever it gets to the end of this cycle, call it$15 trillion or$12 trillion or$10 trillion, and by the next cycle, it's$50 trillion. Then it's done. There is no argument it is taking over the world. AI, four years, AGI. Clearly ubiquitous AGI. So I think they are going to try and use the political process to remove as many roadblocks as possible, which makes sense because the Chinese will build too.

44:11And the Democrats have been very slow in this process in accelerating this. So I think the accelerationists are going to take over the government. Yeah, I mean. Whether Trump gets voted in or not is a different matter, but it feels like the accelerationists are going to take over. Yeah, the sea change, the change in sentiment in Silicon Valley and on tech Twitter has been really interesting to watch. You know, I mean, yeah, I mean, Silicon Valley traditionally progressive, you know, definitely was extremely wary of Trump in 2015, 2016. and that's really about faced, like you say. And like you say, I mean, you know, especially the people at the top of this, like, you know, I don't know, Peter Thiel, like Elon Musk.

45:04Yeah, it's hard to believe they deeply care about Trump. They deeply care about technology and they deeply care about their businesses and their trajectories. And I think this taps into a phenomenon, again, that we've talked a lot about, that's about the way that in a world where permanent technology revolution is the primary condition of our shared lives, is the most important thing happening to all of us, that basically shreds, it exhausts the traditional like conservative versus progressive or conservative versus liberal kind of framework that we use to shape our politics. It just doesn't make sense anymore.

45:45And the framework's going to become much more about your relationship to or your attitude to technology and essentially, do you want to go full steam ahead or do you want to slam on the brakes? Are you a full-scale optimist or are you scared shitless? Those are both un-nuanced sort of simplistic positions, but those will be the two poles via which people make sense of their position. And I think that deep underlying truth is what's fueling a lot of this. Like you say, they don't care about Trump. They want to accelerate. and they think that that's the best way forward. But it's terrifying too because that comes with all kinds of implications and all kinds of ramifications for the rest of us.

46:31It's pretty crazy times. And, you know, I mean, we say a lot of deserved great things about Elon Musk here, but yes, I'm really losing patience with some of his ranting on Twitter. But don't forget, Trump, they basically all bought Trump, who's just a paid mercenary. And Elon said, I want to get to Mars. And Trump has gone, we'll get you to Mars in four years. Elon's like, I want my EV. I want to do all of this. Trump's gone, we'll do it. Just give me money. We've seen that with, even Zuckerberg says, I'm not supporting the Democrats. Yeah. Huge. Yeah, Google's still the biggest supporter. But we're seeing this across the board from technologists that are just like, get out of my way.

47:21We've seen the whole crypto industry go across there for the same reason. It's like, nobody cares about Trump, and Trump doesn't care about crypto. Trump cares about the money, so he can make himself rich. But what he will do is allow these accelerationists through. So fascinating. This election is a big one because if Trump does get in, does get in from our perspective of the exponentialists, expect full acceleration because they've got four years before the next change of government. And the next change of government, they will be in a very different world and will have very different needs.

47:58We'll never be worried about how humans and AI, and we'll probably swing hard left, I think, once that happens. Exactly. I think this is the last election. I've said it in the Creatures and Machines installment. I think this is the last election where our relationship with machine intelligence is not the overwhelming subject and the overwhelming place that the candidates need to take a position on. And OK, it won't be talked about in some of the abstract terms we talk about it here, but it will be talked about in terms of, you know, what the fuck are you going to do about the fact that legions are becoming unemployed because AI is doing all the knowledge work and humanoid robots are doing a ton of the physical work?

48:40You know, what are you going to do about it? What are you going to do about the fact that, you know, my children now want a chip in their brain and they want to commune with the Internet? And I feel like they're becoming something other than human. What do we all do about this as a society, right? That has not been talked about in this election, really, at all. I think in four years, we're in a place where you cannot avoid talking about that. And, you know, it was incredibly short sighted of Biden not to invite Elon Musk to that big discussion about electric cars and what the fuck he thought he was doing there.

49:10And if the Democrats want any meaningful future, they need to think hard about how about what a progressive, you know, Democrat future looks like with these incredible emerging technologies and create a compelling vision of a high tech machine intelligence, progressive future. Right. I'm not saying this to be a Democrat or Republican. I'm saying if Democrats want to survive, they need a compelling vision of a high tech future. But also, if the Republicans have got their own version of that. And if the Republicans want to survive, they're going to have to think about society and that change. Because you can't have a dog-eat-dog world when the dog that's eating you is superior intelligence, faster, better, cheaper.

49:57It's impossible because that dog eats everything. It's like putting a lion with a pack of Labradors. Right, right. It's kind of easier for the Republicans now because at the moment... Right now, yes. Trump doesn't understand this stuff. Like you say, he doesn't give a shit about blockchain. I don't think he knows what a blockchain is very properly. Sorry if I've introduced him there, but I don't think he does. He just says, I'll get out of your way. You accelerate like mad. And that's all he needs to say to them, and they're good with that. Like you say, the problem the Republicans will face is, okay, once you've done four or call it eight years of that, then the groundswell of people at the bottom going like, what the hell is happening to us?

50:37will start to bite. They don't have to worry about them at the moment. They're just talking to the powers that be. But yeah, you know, and if I can see this, the Democrats really need to see this. They need people who understand technology and the Republicans too. And if they can't, the trouble is in the end, I don't have much faith that either side comes to meaningful positions on this. So I think that we're in for potentially full-scale revolution, total transformation in the political landscape. It just feels that Republican and Democrat, left and right, the old traditional left and right, is just exhausted and dead as a framework for making sense of the big choices we face.

51:19So amid every, you know, and it makes sense, right? When you have incredible consequential technological change, you get huge social and political change, too. And I think we're going to go through a period of that. I mean, this is like fourth turning stuff, right? And I actually asked ChatGPT about the fourth turning of this election. It says the next election, 2028, the fourth churning suggests the government becomes more heavy handed or. But it's wanted by society. I protect us from the crisis, from the big things. So authoritarian is the wrong word, but a heavy handed government or a very molly cuddling, supportive government.

52:04So I said, well, what about this election? how important is that? It's like, well, the book doesn't suggest that this one is one way or the other. I said, would this be the last throes of the prior thing, i.e. a complete free will government, which is what Trump would be? And it's like, well, that's probably pretty likely, according to the fourth turning, and then the big rejection into whatever, whether it's existing political parties, or as you say, a complete wholesale change where everybody has to get together, left and right, and say, okay, what are we going to do here? We've just changed everything.

52:38So let's get into questions because we've been nattering for 50 minutes already. So look, there's not many of you asking questions today. Daryl Woods, welcome back, RP. I was worried you'd be eaten by hyenas or some other catastrophic shit. Well, two friends of mine ended up in ICO because of sleeping sickness from tetsiflies. We had to medevac them out of Zimbabwe, where they'd gone to after Zambia, and medevac them to South Africa, where they were in ICU for a week and they're just starting to get a bit better. We all really need you. Your question, laying under the stars, any further thoughts on economic singularity in 2030?

53:15Faster, maybe. Thank you for all you do here. Well, I think David and I have talked about it. Under the stars, I still am erring in my quiet moments of thought to the much bigger topics of beyond that is what is this technology truly? Are we just tapping into a larger structure which it pre-exists and it's universal in scale which is what i think this all is which dave and i talked about but thank you for the question daryl uh asad what does the exponentials team think about the latest twitter talk on ayahuasca and psychedelics on more perspective it seems silicon valley has serious mental and spiritual crisis does this get better or worse with ai okay so just to recap for those who haven't been following this story it's become Something that people are talking about is we all knew that ayahuasca has helped many people and given them a profound sense of universal consciousness or connectiveness and all sorts of things, seeing their own future in ways that are actually somewhat similar to near-death experiences or DMT is another drug that does this.

54:23and we know that religions and spiritual groups across the world have access this different mental plane whether it's actually this consciousness idea or something different and people have been using it to try and make sense of their own lives but what we're also seeing is it's driven a bunch of people fucking bonkers and they're all quitting their jobs and running away and doing all sorts of stuff so that's what's going on with this ayahuasca stuff Psychedelics are being used, obviously, as much smaller quantities to really help people with mental health issues, stuff like that. It doesn't look to me like I could do that ayahuasca thing.

55:05You see the videos of the people looking so nauseous, and I'm like, no degree of enlightenment is worth it. I mean, I've been tempted to. My wife very much wants to. But, you know, there is the risk that you just say, fuck it, run off naked into the woods and never come back and say nothing means anything. I'm just going to lift the trees. You know, it can do a lot to you because you're doing some deep stuff. What if that is the truth, though? This is my point. It says, does it get any better or worse with AI? Again, I've gone down this rabbit hole somewhat. I think it's all the same thing. I think these are all portals into the collective...

55:52energy of the universe and whether knowledge is energy consciousness is energy whatever it is i actually think it's all connected um and that's been a theory for a lot of people for a long time but the ai is the new side of it it's just a different portal and the ayahuasca makes you vomit the ai just takes your job but they all do the same thing i think we should promise that we're not going to do ayahuasca and run off screaming into the forest until the economic singularity is over. Let's at least take people up to that. Exactly. Exactly. Because, you know, that is fast becoming a reality. So if there's any other questions, I think there's not many of you.

56:37I think they're probably bored of me on the platform because I've done an MIT with Julian given the business cycle view. I've done the pro macro GMI view. I did the drinks with Raoul, gave my kind of current views. And now with you, I've covered all of the things. And it's weird. My whole perspective has changed over time where the everything code and the business cycle kind of runs on rails now. I don't know whether we've really just cracked the code or at least for now, at least till the end of this economic singularity. And it kind of runs on rails. I mean, it just proves itself out every time.

57:16And so I spend 70 % of my free thoughts on this stuff because I think this is even bigger. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think this is where it all comes together. You know, I mean, these emerging technologies are where the economic future, the social future, the human future for all of us, just it's all converging on this technology revolution. So if you want to understand the big picture, at the moment, all paths, all roads lead to the exponential age. I have one question in the doc that I think we should take a look at. It's quite a long one. Let me just take a kind of excerpt of it from John C. Thanks, John.

57:56If you consider the information to date indicating less than a$20 ,000 cost for replacement labor for humanoid robots, essentially, Once robot production output meets human production output, how can the pre-cost and post-cost of labor, including the need for any form of immigration or the need for reproduction level, replacement level humans, I guess that means be needed? Basically, I think this question is driving at once you have humanoid robots doing the work of human beings, the physical labor of human beings, why do we need immigration anymore in the global north? And why do we need people, I think, is the way I'm reading it.

58:39And I think it's a great question. It taps into something very deep. We talked a bit about, well, quite a lot about politics. And one of the big ostensible political issues right now is immigration here in the UK, for sure, certainly in the US. You know, that's being talked about a huge amount in the US election. That whole narrative, political narrative, is about to be utterly transformed by mechanical humans. and it's going to make it really difficult to argue that you need this immigration for economic reasons, I think. Yeah, and that's the whole... What's your take on that? That's the whole magic formula thing.

59:17It falls apart. That's the economic singularity. But I think, again, and it irritates me that it's him, and I'm sorry, but Elon has made it clear without being clear. It's like he knows, and it's just very weird. He's just like the biggest problem that humanity faces is the collapse of the birth rate. That is because everybody's incentivized to build more AI and more robots. That's the end of humanity. So what he talks about, again, really interesting. Listen to his words. He wants consciousness to survive. He doesn't talk about humans. He talks about human consciousness to survive. It's freakish when you actually listen all of the other bullshit around Elon.

1:00:02Just listen to some of the things that he says. They're kind of freakish, like he can see the future. Anyway, that's my other thing. We've got a couple more questions here. Volker, never boring, always thought-provoking. Yeah, Volker, that is the point of the exponentialist. Nicole Wright, agree, very thought-provoking. Thank you. Thank you, Nicole, for being part of this journey. And it is a journey, right? this is a community. We're trying to figure this out. David and I spend a lot of time thinking about it. We don't know any of the answers. We think we know the direction of travel. And even then we will be blindsided several times.

1:00:44Yeah, I mean, exactly. I mean, no one, no one knows where this is all heading. No one has the framework that makes sense of all of this. And exactly. This is a community where we all want to learn from one another. And the way people need to treat what we're doing as it is as a, I hope, useful, cultivated form of thinking aloud. You are hearing us in real time, trying to make sense of what's happening step by step. And of course, we're building on frameworks and analysis and ideas that we've been building for a long time. So hopefully we're developing useful analysis. But yeah, we're running, it we're laying the track as we're we're going because everyone is that's the only way you can try and make sense of all this stuff and at some point in the exponentialist we all yeah we need a big event all come together all share ideas all share thinking and i'm sure that's in the works we'll make it happen yeah um otherwise you guys read nick bostrom's new book i can't remember what it's called uh something utopia yeah yeah that's it's a it's a i've read it it's a great one.

1:01:51It's all about what, you know, what does life mean and what's society like in what he calls a solved world, right? Where AI does, you know, looks after all of us. How do we find meaning? Life 3.0, a bit older, but staggeringly good way of thinking about it. And Ray Kurzweil's The Singularity Is Nearer is a really in-depth look at basically our exponential age framework. He follows a very similar path to us. Also, look, I also urge you to just spend time getting your YouTube algorithm to serve you interviews with some of these people. The guy from Anthropic, Sam Altman, Elon, when he's talking about this.

1:02:36There's a bunch of these people, perplexity. Just listen to these people and your algorithm will start selecting these people. and you'll then start to discover more and then get down to some of the craziest stuff about what does this all mean and what is it. There's a lot of content out there from very serious people. Oh, here's the other guy. David gave me this, got me down another bloody rabbit hole, exactly the same rabbit hole that I've been going down, the consciousness idea. And that's a guy called Joshua Back, J-O-S-C-H-A, Back. I'm going to drop two videos in the chat. Yeah, he's brilliant on all this.

1:03:17The guy's a little bit difficult to understand because his German accent's strong, but oh my God, his clarity of thought and this shit is crazy. Let me just drop these in here. Yeah, and while you're doing that, I mean, look, we're working on some really great interviews to bring to the Exponentialist community. We have a great one coming up. with the guy in charge of, I'm not, I think it's Noose or Naus, I'm never quite sure how to say it, who, you know, they're fine tuning Lama to do amazing things. They think they've made an incredible breakthrough when it comes to the compute, the energy needed to train the next big models.

1:03:55So I'll be interviewing him for Exponentialist subscribers, I think next week. We'll try and get Joshua Buck because I think he'd be an amazing, well, he would be an amazing guest. So we are lining up some great interviews to do in the community. A friend of mine just introduced me to the co-founder, the ex-co-founder of SpaceX. So I'm going to be speaking to him as well. Nice. So that's a very interesting one. Sorry, a couple more questions. Might as well finish them off. There's only two. We're running a couple of minutes late. Kim, thank you. Still struggling how to direct high schoolers in these new times.

1:04:26Looking forward to the new Reed recommendations. I think they will figure it out. They're more adaptable. They're still at high school. they will be born into this and of it and it's us who have to adapt i would worry less and i think david's viewpoint has been that for a long time is like they'll figure out their own accord not in a bad way it's like you know not in a darwinian way but they're malleable they they understand they'll come into a different world don't forget their friends will be ais from character ai they will be so deeply embedded with this stuff that they will merge with it without you even knowing So, Kim, I wouldn't worry.

1:05:06And it's the question we get. It's another dimension of the question we get. We've talked about this before. You know, the question we get endlessly, what do I tell the children? And we're going to do a big piece of work on it. You know, I want to write something. We're going to do a video too. Get on with it. That sounds like a December special. Yeah, exactly. Or a January special, right? It's one of those big think pieces, you know, because I have got some high-level advice. For the GMI January think piece, that's a good piece. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Final question from Adam. Hi, David and Raul from Spain.

1:05:38Hey, I don't know where in Spain you are, but welcome. Thanks for all your hard work. As an investor and CMO at a conversational AI company, there's so much value I get in this community on both sides. Fantastic. And thank you for being here. Tell us about what you do as well. Hit me up directly on messaging. I want to hear about that because I'm working on it too. I want to hear what you guys are up to. So you can hit me directly on the platform and David on the platform, or even start creating a group chat and we can start adding names of people in here and start building it. Community, build group chats on the platform without having Real Vision part of it.

1:06:11Just do it. Okay, when it comes to energy, particularly nuclear, is there anywhere to capture the upside and innovation or is it pretty much limited to VC? Look, I think nuclear is overplayed. Everyone plays the uranium thing. I think that's probably still there, playing uranium. I think I'm interested in these bombed out solar companies. I think that's interesting too. And as ever, Tesla's right in the middle of all of this. So don't forget that one. You know, they're very important within this whole space. Right. I think we're done. As you know, we could do this for hours and hours and hours and hours.

1:06:52Thank you, everyone, for joining. I hope you enjoyed it. Yeah. if you guys can try and self-organize to just start adding people of a chat on Twitter, then every time we have a thing, we can get people to join it and we can start building a proper community. That'd be fab. So if anybody does it, put it in the comments section. Then whoever comes can see, oh, there's a group chat to join, stuff like that. And we'll figure it out, whoever it is who wants to run it. And I've given you those videos to watch. Watch those. they'll blow your mind and read the books. Until next time.

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