Unlocking the Secret Cellar: Crypto Meets Rare Wine ft. Club dVIN

37:30So I created what was originally just supposed to be a working group. I called, Jana was one of the people I called, they called a bunch of people that I thought were smart, young, forward-looking people in the wine industry. So a bunch of masters of wine, master psalms, a bunch of cult winemakers from around the world, like the people that I thought were kind of cutting edge, forward thinking, and could really think about the time. And we spent probably six months or a year just talking. Like once a month, we'd have a speaker come on and talk about what a blockchain was. We'd have people come on and just answer questions.

38:12Like, I got this proposal from whoever, tell me what this means. And we'd kind of go through it and try to answer questions, try to figure it out. And then towards the end, what we realized was that the one thing that nobody was working on was what most of the winemakers wanted, which was transparency and authenticity tracking, provenance authenticity tracking, and data, and a connection to the customer. And so, you know, a lot of people are building marketplaces, which are super interesting, like really interesting to basically attach an NFT to a bottle and make a marketplace. I think that's super cool.

38:57And there's a bunch of those that I think are doing well. And one of my friends are involved in those. what we thought was more interesting is how do you create a global standard where you can create where you can essentially have a deed of ownership a digital deed of ownership or what they call in Europe a digital product passport for every bottle so that you can now have anti-fraud and anti-counterfeit protections you can have real ownership over a bottle of wine, turning it from a possession that you can't insure, you can't borrow against, like basically whoever has their hands on it owns it, to an asset that now has an ownership structure with a ledger that you can look up.

39:53Like I can look and see who owns that bottle of wine. there's a um there's provenance i can track that wine back to the winemaker um i can track chain of custody um so that i know that i know like how that wine has been stored or i can to the extent that i can i can borrow against it because now i there's transparent value right i can see what that bottle is worth and i can borrow against it i can insure it you know if you have a five million dollar wine collection that there's there's two things that i always tell um investors it's like a fun little thought exercise right thought exercise one is let's say that you had a five million dollar collection of wine try to insure it you can't right there's just no way like lloyds of london maybe you can get like some special thing but you can't insure it because there's no there's no you don't know what that's hard to know what it's worth.

40:48It's hard to... And because the industry is fakes and so much gets stored badly. So one bottle is not the same as another, I guess. Right. The second thing is, let's say you wanted to start investing in wine. Let's say that wine was interesting as alternatives. Right?

41:12Go tell me how you would invest a million dollars in winery. you can't right because like it's a completely opaque industry it's um it's very exclusive it's based on relationships like if you want to invest in wine you've got to do it through some third party that you know has the relationships or kind of understands what things are worth and is going to take a big chunk. There's just no real way to invest in wine, which is why you have some of these managed wine portfolios, like the folks at Vint and Vinfolio, really good companies, really good people, and they manage portfolios. But if you just as an individual wanted to put a million dollars in, in rare investment grade wine, which by the way, has a pretty solid, um, you know, return on investment, uh, you know, over the course of the last 50 years, like solid beats the S and B.

42:17If you wanted to do that, you're kind of out of luck. Like you'd have to spend the amount of time that you would have to spend to figure out how to do it, to make the right relationships, to kind of wrap your head around it. It's just incredibly difficult. And what that means is that there's just a lot of money on the sidelines, right? You've got an asset class that's probably worth somewhere around a half a trillion dollars, probably a half a trillion dollars in investment grade wine out there in the world, whether it's at wineries or in bonded warehouses like Berry Brothers in London or in your great uncle's basement, right?

42:59Something like a half a trillion dollars in investment grade wine that's out there that is this asset class that has, it's just, there's nothing to do with it, right? You can't do anything with that. It's not very liquid. It's not very transparent. what we wanted to create was a way to put all of that on the blockchain create that transparency create um like more a lot more liquidity in the market and um you know fight against obviously anti-fraud anti-counterfeit how do you do that what's the the actual physical mechanism of of doing this, of tokenizing a bottle of wine? So how does it know that I haven't just taken it off one bottle and stuck it on my fake bottle?

43:46So we've built a, we've built the standard, we built the protocol, but our protocol works with a bunch of different physical on bottle providers, right? So I'm going to tell you about like three or four that we work with. there's one called seller based in Australia that does very simple standard QR codes. Now they're tamper proof. So if you peel it off, it doesn't work. You can't peel it off and put on a new one and they're encrypted, which means that you can't just take a copy and put a copy on a new, on a new bottle. So, you know, that's pretty interesting. That's probably the lowest level of security, but they're great.

44:29And they're very inexpensive. I, we really liked them a lot. The next level up is a company called Proof Tag. They're based in France. They've made a name for themselves, and they're very obvious when you see them because there's like a little liquid in the tag that changes color if the bottle gets too warm or too cold. So that's really interesting. And they use RFID tech. And again, it's Tampa Proof. So if you peel it off, it doesn't work. but then the two most interesting companies that we're working with we really like a lot one is called distinct which uses which has has a patent on smart ink it's a nano nanotechnology smart ink technology where they print using nanoparticles and it's a i mean i can't pretend to explain how it works, but it's really cool.

45:27It's mostly used in passports and currency, but they're using it for investment-grade wine. And then there's the last company, which I actually really love. It's called Dust. And they use crushed industrial diamonds that you either put a sticker or you actually, there's this like kind of gel that you that you can put on the bottle that will create a unique signature with the crushed diamonds that is it's tamper proof it's impossible to copy it was developed the technology was developed for military aircraft parts um to make sure that they weren't because apparently there's a big problem with counterfeit military aircraft parts.

46:21So they developed this dust technology to authenticate those parts. And now they've made it so that it's economical to put on a bottle of wine. But from our perspective, the winemakers will choose what on-bottle tech they want. What we do is we provide the transparency. So you know, if it's seller, that it's going to have one level of trust. And if it's dust, it's going to have a totally different level of trust, right? But we built transparency into the system, rather than, let's call it trustlessness. We don't think that it's possible to be trustless, but it is possible to have a high degree of transparency, which really takes the incentive out of any sort of large-scale counterfeiter.

47:20And so you built a blockchain for this purpose, a ledger essentially. And then that ledger, then that allows you to give back data to the winemakers so they can see who's buying their wine, where it's going, all the other stuff. Talk us a bit about, because then you've built, with the NFT that you guys had, you've built a club around it, but also the very interesting concept of when you drink wine, what do you do? because you... Jenny, you want to talk about digital corks and tasting tokens? Yeah. Sure. Yeah. So every single bottle that is tokenized has its own digital deed of ownership, right?

47:59Its own digital certificate of ownership. And so that sort of digital twin to the physical asset is your asset that has been tradable on the secondary market or however. And then when you actually open that bottle of wine, so, you know, The fun part about everything is you finally uncork the bottle and then you scan it. However you interact with that bottle, whatever kind of hardware the winemaker decides to attach to it, you scan that bottle. And then in our app, it pops up and says, are you sure you want to open this bottle? And you say yes. And then what happens is you destroy that original deed of ownership.

48:33So that NFT is no longer saleable. And what happens at that moment is really interesting for a number of reasons, but it's really interesting for the winemaker. And then we can incentivize the consumer to actually do that behavior. And what that is, is the digital quirk is destroyed and it converts basically into like a POAP, like a proof of experience. So now you've got this new token that's dropped into your account or your wallet, right? And that is your proof that you tasted X bottle of wine, right? And there's things you can do. We're going to geofence it so that you can only share those proofs of experience with people that are in the room with you.

49:09But the idea is the winemaker now knows for the first time ever who their end consumer is, right? This is something that's never happened in the history of the business before, that you can actually track consumption. Like you can track that bottle from grape to glass all the way through the supply chain and then find out who's actually drinking that wine. You know, because usually a wine leaves the estate and it might pass through five hands, oftentimes more, and then trade on the secondary market three or four times. The winemaker has no idea who his truest fans are and who's really opening those bottles.

49:42Now for the consumer, so the winemaker gets the consumption data, which is really valuable, something they didn't have. And the consumer can now build their allocation, right, with these proofs of experience. So now if I'm Michelle Jack and I'm knocking on a cellar door or a winery door and thinking they might not let me in, I can say, hey, look, I have this proof that I tasted this many of your wines this year. I am one of your truest fans, and I can prove that through these tasting token NFTs. And when you go and speak to winemakers about this, what do they say? How difficult has that conversation been, or how easy has it been?

50:20Well, right now, we've got a two-year waiting list of wineries that want to do pilot programs with us. We've done, I don't know, two dozen of them so far, very small scale. But, you know, this is information. This is data that they know they need, right? Think about there's three kinds of data that you get. Number one is consumption data. So unlike kind of every other product in the world, most products are consumed as soon as they're purchased. but investment grade rare luxury wines are consumed 10 years or five years or 15 years after they're purchased you don't know when they're being consumed and if you don't know when they're being consumed or who's consuming them it's very difficult to manage product development right and you know winemakers are artists and they're always going to try to make the very best wine but they have to figure out price points they have to figure out what what their selection should be.

51:25They have to figure out packaging. There's a lot that goes into product development for a winemaker. And if you have no idea who is consuming your product or when, it's very hard to do product at all. If you don't know that your customers in Finland are opening your bottles after five years, but your customers in Korea are holding onto them for 12 years, if you don't know that, it's very hard for you to develop products for those markets. And right now they have no idea. So that's number one product, you know, the consumption data. Number two is supply chain data. Because remember, these are tiny wineries with a tiny amount of product.

52:06And they're sending, you know, three cases to Finland, and four cases to Seoul, and like, one case to the Cayman Islands, if you're lucky, right? So they don't know. And like those cases have been disappearing for 10 years. And then hopefully at some point they're being consumed. Well, if the winemaker knows when the bottles are being consumed and where they're being consumed, then he can track and he can say, okay, this bottle, I sold it to Finland, but it actually ended up being opened in the Caymans 10 years later. then that lets the winemaker have more control over their supply chain. And when you have a very limited supply, making that efficient is really important.

52:47And then the third thing is customer acquisition, right? Customer acquisition in Napa, average customer acquisition cost was$910 in Napa. Cost$910 to acquire a new customer. Now, that customer was worth about$4 ,500 over their lifetime value, so it was worth it. But it's very expensive. Think about it like, again, in the wine industry. When was the last time you saw an advertisement for wine? I'll tell you it was never because there are no advertisements for wine, unless you're reading like Wine Spectator magazine. Because you can't advertise for wine on social media. Obviously, it doesn't make sense to advertise for wine on television.

53:27So there's no ads for wine. There's no real marketing, right? Like your marketing is if someone shows up at the door. Yeah. Yeah, right, right, right. Your hope is that someone shows up at your cellar door, right, and tastes fine. Like that's what you hope for. So it's very, very hard to acquire a customer. So for example, Napa has to acquire your customer for you, essentially. Then you have to bribe them to get them in the door by giving them expensive tastings and a bit of food. And then they go on that email list or whatever it is, and they then become customers or they go home and find it from their wine store.

54:05Exactly, exactly. And what this does is it connects the winemaker and the consumer at the moment of consumption, right? You try the wine, even if like it's your bottle and you pour a glass for Jana and Jana claims a tasting token. Now, if I'm the winemaker, I can go to Jana and say, hey, your friend Raul gave you an amazing glass of wine. If you want to buy a case, I'll give you a 20 % discount. So they're acquiring new customers at the moment of consumption. And Jana, how many people do you think a case of wine goes through before it gets opened in terms of middlemen? People taking either margin from us as consumers or margin from the winery.

54:54I mean, kind of what does a winery seller at and what does the end consumer who opens it buy it for? And who are the people who take all the money outside of just the appreciation? Yeah, there's about five layers in the supply chain in the wine industry. And it's, you know, you have to think you're jumping from, you might start in Bordeaux and they either sell to a broker and they go see on. And then, you know, it goes from there. Maybe it goes through an importer and exporter, right? and then you've got your distributors in the USA and then it goes to retail maybe, right? And then you have a consumer buy it.

55:28These wines, we're talking about the luxury space. We're talking about investment grade wines. And usually statistically, they will also then trade for, I think it's three or four times on secondary. So what we say is, and now Dave, correct me if I've got this wrong, but we believe winemakers are leaving about 75, what is it, Dave? 75 % of what they could be earning on the table? So average$100 bottle of wine. That's a very disruptive. Yeah. The winemaker is making about$25. So the middlemen are earning$75 for$100 bottle of wine. And those margins are upside down from every other luxury product, right?

56:18most luxury products that have brand awareness where you're buying a luxury product it's the brand owner that gets all the value that gets all the margin not for wine and it's because of this opacity of the market right it's because it's opaque and the middlemen kind of like that it's opaque um because that's that allows them to to have these large margins it's also you know here's one interesting point, and this is a thing that we're trying to solve with our new Vincoin offering is that we did a little study last year and we think for a$100 bottle of wine, about$12.50 goes to banks. Because think about this, most of those transactions, it's not like your Hershey and you're importing containers full of sugar from the Caribbean, right?

57:23You're a tiny winery and you're sending two cases to Finland and you're sending three cases to Korea and you're sending two cases to the Caymans, right? So every time you do that, there's cross-border transaction fees. There's currency risk. And these are$4 ,000 invoices. So your bank is charging 25 bucks for your$4 ,000 wire, the same as they're charging 25 bucks for your 400 ,000 or your$4 million wire. So much money is getting eaten up in bank and currency fluctuations and cross-border transaction fees for these little tiny orders, right? Millions and millions. We think about 100 million tiny transactions a year in this$100 billion market.

58:19It's crazy. So you've been experimenting with all of this, working with some small winemakers, getting all together, building the app, doing all the stuff. We'll talk about the token shortly. how are you going to scale it because you know people are looking at you know these kind of markets the tokenization of real world assets and networks around these things and destruction you know getting back the margin that is being taken by so many people so you're really in where people are super interested with where all this is going but we need somebody to scale to prove it how are you going to do it So what's nice about our model, I think, is that it scales very easily and very inexpensively.

59:09So if you take, so the luxury wine industry is about$100 billion a year. And if you take it about$10 billion is in sort of rare investment grade, ultra high-end wines. So in that sector of the, in that kind of slice of the industry, about 95 % of the bottles already have some sort of unique identifier. And the reason that we didn't get in the business of creating our new on-bottle tech is because we wanted to scale, right? We wanted to be able to work with any product out there that's already providing a unique identifier for a bottle. So it's about 95 % of the kind of rare and investment grade and about 70 % of the rest of the luxury industry.

1:00:04So if you add all of that up, it's about 70, let's call it 2 billion bottles a year and about$70 billion worth of wine a year. And that's growing pretty quickly. How much wine has got an identifier on it already? Or is this a new thing? About 2 billion bottles a year. Oh, and then going back. Yeah, yeah. Most people don't get that point, but yes. Um, going back about 10 years, we don't have the exact math, but I'm going to, I think that we're getting close to a hundred billion to 200 billion that already has a unique identifier and hasn't yet been consumed. So we could take a bottle that was shipped out two years ago, if it has a unique identifier on it and create a digital code for that model.

1:01:01Now, we have to figure out a way for proof of purchase. And that's going to be, we've got some AI tools that we're building around that, that will get you pretty close, maybe not 100 % trustless, but we should get you to feel pretty confident that that bottle is authentic and has been purchased. But we can scale pretty fast. As long as there's a unique identifier in a bottle, we can attach a digital cord. Yeah, I'm more thinking about the scaling of getting the winemakers to say, yes, I want this data. Yes, I want to partner with you. And then getting people to use the app. It's those two parts, you know, the tech side scales.

1:01:44But how do you get both sides of the equation to scale between the wine companies and the users? So that's a good point. You need to create an incentive structure. We spent the last two years figuring out product market fit. And this year we're launching the incentive structure and the incentive structure is our own native token called Bitcoin. And and so we're building out in a couple of different ways. The first way, and this is something that we're working on actually with the ProCrypto, with your ProCrypto folks, where we're building behaviors and distributing Bitcoin by letting people tokenize wines that are already in their sellers.

1:02:31Okay. So we're giving them the ability to do that. And we think that solves two things. One is it helps with behavior. I mean, it gets people to claim the tasting tokens and claim the VIN coin. We'll have lots of valuable things that people can buy for VIN coin. So that'll be interesting. And we'll train people on how to use it. The other thing that it'll give us is a ton of data. And that data will be partially useful, right? Maybe not perfectly useful because some of it will be a little bit suspect or a little bit garbage data. but we feel good enough about it where we'll have a data set that we can show winemakers and say, this is what your dashboard will look like.

1:03:16This is what the data will look like. And by the way, here's your first 500 or a thousand customers. So we're going to the winemaker with Vincoin. And we can talk a little bit more about Vincoin later, but we've held back about 50 % of the Vincoin in the treasury to issue to winemakers as they come on the platform. So basically they're getting money to then send on to their consumers. So they're kind of getting on the platform for free basically in the beginning. And they're getting data for free. So, and as they see the value in it, that's what is going to drive demand for Bitcoin. But here's something to think about.

1:04:04um we model ourselves very closely after the airline airline miles air miles yeah back when i was first collecting air miles in the 90s in order to collect an air mile i had to take my boarding pass after my flight and put it in an envelope and lick a stamp and send it into the airline, right? That's how I got my miles. And I did that because I was a, you know, I was a road warrior, right? I wanted, I wanted my miles. I wanted my upgrades. I wanted access to the lounge. I wanted all that stuff. And so I was, because I was a beast user, I got my miles. over time it's gotten a lot easier and the value has as the value of an air mile is so well known and it's so universally accepted that everybody always gets their miles right everyone always does whatever the little thing you have to do to get your air miles you do that thing even though they keep devaluing the value of your air miles that's right that's right but still everybody does it.

1:05:19And it took 20 years, but everybody does it. And that's our timeline, right? We think it's a 20-year timeline, but we know that it's the people that want the status in the beginning, right? I want to be Grand Cru status with Chateau Lafitte because when I go there, I want them to know who I am and bring me into the back door and give me a barrel tasting. I want to get like the when they have a library offering I want them to offer it to me first so I'm going to collect my vin coin and I'm going to collect my tasting tokens because that's going to get me status with the wine also democratizes I mean crypto one of the key things about crypto is democratization because the wine industry is like the banking industry of old it's behind dusty boardrooms power brokers you get literally no chance no chance of getting anywhere close to it i mean i i realized how rigged the system was i think i've told you this before is a friend of mine's brother-in-law owned what was the largest fine wine dealership in england and i it was i was in my mid-30s and i thought i was going to buy some champagne for my 40th birthday and i'm going the guy up and said hey listen what do you think i should buy i said you should without question um it's not been released yet but you should buy the 96 don perignon so i bought like five cases or whatever stuck it away 10 cases um and thought nothing of it you know there's there's always a release of don perignon but then i get a phone call nine months later saying you should buy as many cases you can afford i'm like why is that he goes i'm just walking out of the door of don Perignon and me and Robert Parker are wine tasting and Robert's raced at 100 out of 100 and I'm like that is so crooked that is so insidery that people don't get a look and the idea is if you get to be known as a drinker of whatever wine you like ting yellow or something that's what I had last night and they know that I'm gonna be able to get the wine and get some preferential treatment because right now i might i've probably spent well you know whatever my favorite producers are i've spent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars on them and they have no idea i mean i'm out relentlessly promoting rioca which nobody realizes converting so with dave yeah and carver well i brought tondonia to the last uh to the last pro crypto i brought that tom don't i've got and i love it but you know but they don't know this right you need to get your tasting tokens and that's so the winemakers will do it because they want to know who the consumers are and the consumers will do it because they want the winemakers to know who they are right they want the status that status is hard to get yeah you can't get in the door at chateau petruth you can't go and taste it at screaming eagle or 100 Acre or any of these places.

1:08:23To the extent that you can start showing with an authentic proof of experience that you're a great customer or even just a great lover of the wine. So 100 Acre is a really good example. The winemaker is an old friend of mine. And it's one of the most highly allocated wines in the world. If you want to get a bottle of 100 Acre what you do is you go to their website and you put your name in the form on the website, and then you wait 15 years. And then maybe you can buy one bottle that your kids can drink, right? Like you just can't get an allocation. And he hates that because there's no less efficient system than like, I got, I've now, okay, now I have an allocation opened up, I'm going to go call someone who wanted my wine 15 years ago.

1:09:23But if he could go out and say, all right, so I'm going to look and see who has the most tasting tokens. I want to see who has, who's actually done the work and can authentically prove to me that they've been a good customer or at the very least have been seeking out my wines and are, and I know that they're going to be a great consumer. That's who I want to get the allocation to. That's who I want to invite over for a barrel tasting when I'm doing my blending. That's who I want to invite to a winemaker dinner when I come through town. That's when I have my harvest experience. I want to bring my best customers there.

1:10:00Right now, they're bringing in trade people, which is fine. I'm in the wine trade. I love people that are in the trade, but they want those experiences to go to consumers, right? The consumers are jaded. The consumers are going to love that. Just think if you got to go and, you know, do a harvest experience at Sussacaya, like that's a magical, cool, wonderful experience that right now only importers get to do. Do you think that people might flex these tokens on social media? Are you going to make it so it's something that you can kind of give yourself status because there's probably somewhere you know wine groups on instagram or twitter or wherever it may be and there's a way that you can give yourself status and prove it right because everybody's a bullshitter in this world but this way you can prove it are you thinking yeah absolutely absolutely i mean before instagram took down the nft kind of showcasing feature we were already doing it um but for sure with Bitcoin now, we've got an incentive structure built up for, you know, around the launch of the token where we'll be incentivizing people to, you know, to help people adopt these behaviors.

1:11:12You have to obviously make people aware that this is even happening, right? So by having our true fans as we onboard them share their digital corks and tasting tokens on social, then we'll be incentivizing them as well with Bitcoin airdrops and things like that just to get the awareness out but for sure the flex of just i don't know how many accounts i follow on instagram or you know that just post bottle shots it's just it's basically like their soldiers cabinet is their social media you know it's like hey look what i drank this week and and the people that comment on it's blurred but you can see behind that is my soldiers there's all old bottles that i've drunk that i the ones i really like i stick them on the shelf afterwards to remind me putting in the work i like it yeah so yeah everyone every real wine collector has a soldier's cabinet right yeah so um a couple of things firstly when does the film launch you think so uh i'm gonna be in can um in uh in may and we're doing a preview and actually I'm going to show you I'm going to see you next week I'm going to show you a little bit of that footage so we think that this film will be ready in Q4 this year but we don't want to release it until it's been through the festivals.

1:12:40We feel really good about it being a festival film I don't know if we're going to win but like the story is really fantastic and the character is just really great Is it quite quirky as well? it's very quirky yeah um so you know we we like it for a festival film um and that would mean that we can't we wouldn't be able to release it until probably q4 of 2025 um so that said we're gonna do a series of private screenings around the world so um you know if you can hear my voice um i think that there will be an opportunity for you to see it before everybody else and when does where do people find details of the nft community what you're doing because you know as you know i've had friends of mine reach out to winemakers saying hey listen i want to speak to these guys there's people who's wine consumers a lot of people interested in in this kind of area where do they find details uh and any details about when the token launch is and how that works um so the token launch is going to be in q4 this year right um maybe q3 uh we're still early early stages uh but there will be lots more information about that um uh we're doing another um we're doing another happy hour with uh with real vision in the in a couple weeks i think and we'll we'll share a lot more information about on the road map for that is on the 12 um to for to find more information if you just go to dvin d-v-i-n dot tech uh that's kind of the that's our corporate website um if you're interested in joining the community we're closed for membership right now but if you have a friend who's a member you can become a member like we have this little policy where you can you can drink your way in or taste your way in to the to the club um it kind of keeps it nice because it's like the only people that are members are people that are members like to drink with.

1:14:37So that's kind of a good social book. But if you go to clubdvin.com, then you can find out more information about the club. But dvin.tech will get you more information about what we do. You can see the white paper for VinCoin there and more information about kind of where we're headed. Fantastic. Guys, look, I really appreciate your time. It's been a fun journey coming down this journey with you as well and seeing it develop you know you've always been uh great with the real vision community and i think they've loved what you've been doing as well they've been following this whole story along so good luck on all of the stuff coming because you know it's now the rubber's about to hit the road with everything from the film to the token to everything so exciting times for you guys thank you sir thanks so much yeah good to see you and i'll see you in morocco in a few days time yeah we'll see you soon americas yeah bye bye bye so i thought that was fascinating um i just think that use of blockchain is incredibly disruptive for supply chains overall just even in terms of inventory management knowing that you can trade wine on blockchains is a start but knowing what's been drunk knowing that when you know what's been drunk, you can kind of know that the price is going up because less bottles are around.

1:16:01We talked about that with the giant cellar, that some of those bottles were the last ever. Well, if you can know that, you get a better pricing mechanism for wine. But also, you can see how the winemakers themselves lose 75 % of their entire economics. That's crazy. Now, so many have this email list where you can turn up the door in Napa or wherever it is you can get on it. But many wineries don't do that at all. And they just use negotiations who get in the middle and off it goes through the processes of middlemen after middlemen before you get to buy it. So I love the way that it's going to democratize the access to great wine.

1:16:43It also is communal. It's fun. You can show what you've been drinking and you can keep a record of it yourself but you get rewarded for it not only by the the tokens that you get for being active in it as most of these deep in projects are but in addition by the winemakers themselves who say you're a good customer anyway there's a lot here to think about where the future of industry meets blockchain and particularly kind of high-end brands and parts of the market that have always felt opaque to many of us. Anyway, have a glass of wine. Enjoy. Cheers. We hope you enjoyed this episode. At Real Vision, we arm you with expert knowledge, time efficient tools, and a powerful network to help you succeed on your financial journey.

1:17:32Get a taste of financial freedom with our free offer at realvision.com forward slash free. That's realvision.com forward slash free. Thank you.