Drinks With Real Vision: Andreas Steno & Mikkel Rosenvold

18:37Mikkel Rosenvold:So at the other end of vertical integration, you have stuff that's not even shipped yet. So no matter how good your idea is, no matter how good your software startup is, if it's not shipped yet, if it's not at all vertically integrated because it hasn't shipped yet, the train has left the station. It's too late in my opinion. And that's going to be big because there's still, at any point, there's so much stuff in development. We're like, oh, we're in better mode or we're playtesting this or whatever. It's too late. I mean, if you haven't got a mode built already, it's too late. What are you working against?

19:18Mikkel Rosenvold:You're competing with not only Mac 7, but also with Anthropic, Perplexity, OpenAI.

19:25Andreas Steno:Which is kind of Mac 7 anyway, right?

19:27Mikkel Rosenvold:Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, that is the specter of vertical integration. Duolingo is another example, not very well vertically integrated. It's very, very easy to switch to another app. They failed, as far as I can tell, I've never really used it too much, but they failed to build the network effects or whatever integration that would make it indispensable. So I understand the desire to disrupt Bloomberg. And there are so many organizations and people around the world. They're so eager to get rid of Bloomberg, but it's very, very tough. Which banker are going to be first movements and pull the plug on Bloomberg?

20:12Mikkel Rosenvold:It's not going to happen because they're so well integrated. So that's the way I view it. It's all about integration. And if you're working on a software product out there that's not released, it has no users, it's too late.

20:27Andreas Steno:Okay, Miguel. Are you watching the questions coming in? I am. I am. Oh, now I ended up deleting one of the good ones here. Good ones. Very good ones. We need to bring up this question from Gary. And you get a few insults, but we'll insult Gary. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, Dres, you need to explain your hatred for the silver box. Let me just start by answering that. That again. Yeah, because silver is up 5 % today. Bitcoin is down. So, of course, we need to touch upon this. I want to reiterate, I've been long silver and I haven't been short silver at any point. I'm still long a lot of metals.

21:07What I just highlighted in early January and through January was that the silver box were overcrowded.

21:16Andreas Steno:I think I kind of won that discussion. Is it tempting to get back into silver? I certainly wouldn't rule that out. I'm low gold and I'm low copper. So why not silver? I mean, very correlated traits. I just exited silver because of a too crowded positioning and a very clear sensitivity to leverage. And we had this biggest drawdown in history that Friday a few weeks back. And here we are. So I have no hatred for silver bucks. I just think you need to be capable of laughing at yourselves. and I say that with with the whole of my heart to be honest I don't know a community that is more rude than the silver box and as you can see Gary here Mikkel's definitely not retarded but he's fat he's calling me retarded right I guess that's the indirect conclusion here sure as I've said before Gary yes I am fat yes I am retarded but what does it have to do with my silver view, right?

22:27I mean, I think a few months back,

22:30Mikkel Rosenvold:we actually promised to do a recap of the best insults we've received. I think this is mid-tier, C-tier. The S-tier insult we've had was from when we did a Danish podcast. And he was like, your stuff is quite good. I like your analysis, but none of you have necks. So that is an S-tier insult. especially because there was an audio only podcast but still that is an SGO insult

22:59Andreas Steno:you could sense it through the mics

23:01Mikkel Rosenvold:absolutely this is C-tier in my opinion you can do better yeah

23:06Andreas Steno:on a serious note actually thanks for bringing this topic up Gary because what I've been writing for the past week or so since we got that SCOTUS ruling on tariffs is that I consider Trump's position of strength very weak ahead of the meeting on trade terms with Beijing in April. So I've upped my conviction on everything related to rare earths. I'm also getting a question whether I'm long UUU, which is a rare earth name. Yes, I am. It's the second biggest position I have, as far as I remember. So I'm long gold and copper exposures. And I have nothing against being long silver. I just think the risk reward is weaker than the two other metals.

23:57Andreas Steno:That's exactly what I've been saying the whole time. Give me some alpha restaurant recommendations for Copenhagen, please. Okay, we need an hour for that, Mikkel. It's the best. If you're into good food, this is the best town in the world. I honestly think it is. And I mean, OK, the simple answer to that question is to visit Alchemist, the weirdest restaurant experience in the world. And I can safely promise that. You're kind of traveling through six rooms during the night. You'll get 72 courses, I think. You need to set aside five or six hours. You'll struggle to walk out of there, at least if you're...

24:47Andreas Steno:Pick the alcoholic menu. Yeah, visit it. That would be my recommendation. Alchemist, completely bizarre place. And you'll taste every single part of the body of an animal, including penises or bananas. That's a good one. Yeah. Are we allowed to say banana on this show? I'm not sure. We probably shouldn't. but let me say one thing in relation there's a reason why my show is called Macro Meets Micro so I'm not a subject matter expert on anything banana I'll leave it at that

25:30Mikkel Rosenvold:what I will say Andres if you can go to Alchemist of course I've never been there I would love to try it at one point so many good restaurants if you're briefly in Copenhagen in the center of Copenhagen and you want the best sandwich in Copenhagen you need to go to a place we were there today Andres called Itota. It's Italian schiachata sandwiches. That is incredible. It's a little bit pricey, but that's the absolute best. It's right off the main square of Copenhagen. So do check that out if you're here.

26:06Andreas Steno:We get a question in from Fugazi1990. I guess maybe it's his birth year. I'm almost from 1990. I'm from New Year's Eve, 1989. So good years will be born in. What is your view on the crypto market in total at this moment? And what is your outlook for crypto this year? Okay. We had actually planned on discussing whether crypto is fairly placed in the same basket as some of these mid-cap software as a service names, right? um and i had a long discussion with the software guy i met with uh over breakfast this morning around that exact topic and uh his take is and i i kind of share that um is that well a a blockchain with fees is a software as a service you know you're paying a fee to use a code there's obviously a whole you know infrastructural angle to this but in essence it is a software as a service my point is can you find a software as a service that is better equipped to deal with the age of AI and the age of disinflation if that's the outcome of AI you know margin squeezes, microtransactions, agents using chains, et cetera.

27:41Andreas Steno:I think that's kind of where we're heading, towards much smaller companies, towards much smaller transactions on average. And the good old fear system is not particularly well equipped to deal with that. And a chain like Solana, they couldn't care less if the average transaction is$0.05, whatever, right? It's kind of a chain designed for microtransactions and loads of them, right? So yes, I think it's fair to say that it's software as a service. I think it is fair that it sells off alongside software as a services until we see the agentic economy actually thriving on chain. And I think it will be difficult to get the growth results in that particular part of the asset space this year.

28:34Andreas Steno:So for crypto to receive returns this year, we need to see the duration scare in software overall to abate. I kind of said it earlier that I think it's overdone. And we need to see the duration scare from the post-COVID wide inflation outcome space fade as well. And we're currently getting there as well. If you listen to our NowCasts, we run this NowCast IQ platform. Inflation is running 15, maybe 17 basis points below inflation consensus right now. So we're getting there. And I think it's safe to say that it's very early to discuss the impact of AI on prices yet. I mean, it's kind of bullshit to state that it's AI that is driving the price level down in momentum terms right now.

29:27Andreas Steno:I think it's related to other things.

29:30Mikkel Rosenvold:Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's energy. It's a lot of other stuff. But it's getting there. I mean, you're seeing – one thing is this Jack Dorsey stuff, but we are seeing layoffs. We will get back to that. We are seeing layoffs. We're seeing – in Europe, we're seeing banks doing layoffs. We're seeing software companies. We're seeing logistics companies everywhere doing layoffs. And if it's not going into inflation, it's going into margins. I mean, it's as simple as that. So we are seeing this beginning. A lot of businesses are going to be very, very slow to get into this, but we're hearing about it even in some of the largest banks in Europe as well, Andreas.

30:10Mikkel Rosenvold:You have a big network there. They're working at being ready to execute on this because at some point one of their competitors are going to do massive cuts. And I mean, so far, the recipe seems to be...

30:28Andreas Steno:Okay, Miguel, I need to say something about the European banking sector, right? Because in my opinion, it has little to do with AI yet. In my opinion, you could have laid off 80 % of the workforce in European banks a while ago without anyone noticing. I sincerely mean that from having worked inside the biggest in Northern Europe. Eight out of 10 didn't really produce anything. and the two out of ten that actually produced something, they weren't really paid for it relative to the others, which is typical in Northern Europe. So no sector has been worse at finding all sorts of excuses to host internal workshops, ESG shit, woke there than banking in Europe.

31:21Andreas Steno:It's been terrible. And I am thankful that I've left that shitty sector five, six years ago. I've never been happier. But finally, they're probably waking up now. But just last week, I saw this terrible panel hosted by Nordia Bank, my old bank, around some weird ESG stuff. And you would have thought that they had moved on after everything that happened over the past 12 months, but they haven't.

31:53Mikkel Rosenvold:No, but I mean, perhaps especially in Europe, I think banks were still, up until a few years ago, still reeling from 08. Because especially in Europe, the narrative was that this is the bank's fault. So they were left with zero credibility. They had been bailed out. They had to shoulder the blame for this. What do you do then? You pay lip service to whatever the government finds relevant. You're trying to piece the current big thing. You move into diversity. You move into climate change. You move into whatever is the big thing at the moment. And at the same time, they were able to, the big banks were able to have massive new legislation, regulation around banking.

32:41Mikkel Rosenvold:They say, oh, we have to accept that. And they were pleased to have it in there because it limits the scope for disruptions and new firms in those businesses. So I think it's been – and in that way, I get why you were laid off. I get that strategy of trying to fit in and get back within the good graces of society. I think they're probably there now. I think it's most people, there's been a generational shift, et cetera. But I kind of get that. But I do tend to agree with you. So the one sector that's going to be slower than banks, that's my old sector. That's government. In the U.S., there's been some movement.

33:27Mikkel Rosenvold:In Europe, it's going to be very, very slow because there's no disruption, really. No one is fearful of going out of business because you can't. And the pressure will probably have to come top down from a lack of income tax revenues. And that is still a few years down the line. But that is probably where it's going to have to come from. But Mikkel, everything you just said about the banking sector trying to get back on a good footing with society and all of that,

33:59Andreas Steno:It kind of reminds me of that old Lenin quote that capitalists will sell us the exact rope which we will hang them with, right? Because why would you accommodate all sorts of bullshit to become good friends with people who don't like you? They will never like you. I mean, if you're a socialist, you will never like a bank. You want to implement central bank lending and all that kind of stuff that they've been talking about for ages but haven't been able to implement. Actually, this software guy, he asked me this morning when I gave him this pitch on the agentic economy and how ETH, Solana, Sui, et cetera, could become the host of that agentic economy.

34:47Andreas Steno:And I'm not saying that it's a tangible scenario for this year. It's not really, but a few years down the road. And he told me, why wouldn't that be hosted by the government on some sort of e-currency, right? And it's the exact same logic that the left wing has used for a long time around commercial banks' ability to create money out of thin air, right? I mean, you hear that quite often from the left wing in Europe still. Why don't we just allow the central bank to create the credits to households and corporations, etc.? Why do we need a private bank to earn money on that? In that case, we kind of pass on the monopoly to a private sector entity.

35:36Andreas Steno:Why do we do that? I think there is some merit to this. The issue is obviously that if you only have one player and that player sucks at credit assessments, you're in a really, really bad spot, right? So, I mean, it is obviously a good thing to have competition between companies trying to assess credit. And one of the things that I really look forward to is how large language models will shape future credit assessments, right? because I'm, you know, the stuff that I tell Gemini with ChatGPT, my butthole hurts, right? I would never say that to anyone in real life, right? But I have no issues. I just did, yeah.

36:18Andreas Steno:Oops. But you know what I mean, right? You chat with ChatGPT around stuff that you would find very uncomfortable in real life, maybe even as a conversation with a doctor, right? you would probably find it much more comfortable to chat with an LLM around, okay, I'm not able to pay my bills for the first this month. What do I do? For example, stuff like that. That would be amazing data to have as a credit assessment company, right? So, I mean, this could shape the banking system in a way that we're not yet able to imagine. And I think there's a decent chance if they throw away all this vote shit that they can actually turn into technology companies on the back of this with much higher margins as a consequence.

37:09Mikkel Rosenvold:Especially OpenAI because I think it's ChatGPG that's being used for that way more than Jim and I thought, I think.

37:19Andreas Steno:You and I use ClockCode a lot and ClockCode work a lot. They have some issues matching supply and demand right now. That's at least my impression. Absolutely. The retail frenzy is coming to Claude now, and I'm not sure they're prepared. Dario, he's been saying to the media for the past couple of months, oh, why has Sam bought all this compute? Now you're going to recognize why, Dario, over the next couple of months if you keep posting all of these announcements that will lead to a retail frenzy into your product because that's why you need all the compute, mate.

37:58Mikkel Rosenvold:Yeah. A question, does anyone roast an address of the sweater or what on earth? I think it's quite nice. But the thing about credit scores, you've been saying it, we've been discussing it for a while, and I'm really trying to wrap my head around it because using your personal data, which this very much is, your very, very personal discussion with Chet GPT, to sort of lay that out in the open for a credit assessment company or for a bank or for a lender. First of all, it's extremely illegal. You could argue that the same thing happens with the algorithms. They're probably listening to this and trying to sell you medicine for that butthole that you'll probably get asked for that.

38:45Mikkel Rosenvold:So is that any different? It's possible. what I thought about this is possibly it could be done in a completely anonymous way. So that ChatGPG handles sort of, they're prompted with this, with Andreas Steno, what's his credit score? And it takes all these things into account without telling the bank or the lender about what goes into this credit score. It just sends back a credit score without telling why. That could be possible, actually. It would be highly, highly controversial. And I think it would be very, very, very detrimental to Chad GPT's business model here. Don't give this guy a mortgage.

39:27Andreas Steno:I mean, he's got a ring of fire. No, no, no. Back there. He's talking about his butthole all the time, right?

39:38Mikkel Rosenvold:It's a mania, yeah. No, I don't know, Andreas. This is both dystopian and a really, really good business idea. But in any case, what is happening in the credit risk assessment area is that obviously when you have a bunch of data on people, legal data, and you're trying to assist them, it's a very, very natural use case for AI on top of the existing data. Literally all the data that we put into our chat friends there.

40:12Mikkel Rosenvold:So, Andreas, let's do one or two more questions here. We have one from Theo here. Has a recession finally arrived for 2027? I'm not quite sure how to understand that question, but let's start with the first part. Are we in a recession? No, but no, just flat no.

40:32Andreas Steno:You could never rule that out, but no. I consider that incredibly unlikely. I think it actually leads me to something that I wanted to say today. After having this chat with this guy with connections to this mid-cap private equity firm, but also having similar discussions with other private equity firms, private debt firms, this is certainly where you should look if you're worried. I mean, I plan on spending some more time looking into this whole private credit sector because on a sector level, they probably have 25 % to 30 % software on their books. And we're not talking about quality software here.

41:22Andreas Steno:We're talking about mid-cap software. So, I mean, obviously less integrated vertically. And these companies, they're essentially levered bets on software because they're using leverage. And until a few days ago, I didn't get why markets sold off software, but only partially sold off private credit, private equity companies, and didn't sell off banks in the US at all. Because if there's an issue, major, major issue in software as a service, that will lead to a lot of losses within private equity and private credit. And the backholders are the banks because they provided the leverage to these funds.

42:23Andreas Steno:Do we know how bad it is right now? No. I think these vehicles, they're incredibly good at kicking the can down the road. We know that they've been busy re-striking a lot of these loans this year, also last year. We have some high-level data on that, meaning that probably some covenants were breached, and then they struck a new deal with these software companies struggling to pay and so on and so forth. So therefore, we don't see the losses yet. And these are pretty intransparent vehicles. I've had discussions with many CIOs from pension funds, sovereign wealth funds, allocating billions to these vehicles.

43:01Andreas Steno:and even they struggle to get any transparency out of these companies. So I don't think that's a good sign. And having said that, the good old saying that you do not really find out who's swimming naked until the tide turns, right? That's basically also what you need to consider here. As long as the credit cycle is doing okay, and it kind of relates to the question I got on liquidity as well, and we're seeing a balance sheet expansion across the entire banking system, etc., then I don't think you need to be worried because you're not going to see you swimming naked at such a point. But as soon as we're talking about a rate of change that is negative on credit, it's recession time.

43:53Andreas Steno:I think that's probably recession time, right? And I think private debt is where you need to look for clues around that. It doesn't look overly pretty right now, but it's not landslide. Let me just also stress that. But I'm getting increasingly worried what's hidden in there. That's my honest answer to that. So I think it's 2027 likely for a recession. I wouldn't rule out that it's feasible. interesting Andreas it's very very interesting

44:31Mikkel Rosenvold:what happens beyond because we're talking a lot about this and this and this needs to happen before the midterms we're going to run the economy hot into the midterms very very few are talking about what happens beyond that maybe AI fixes it all maybe we're stuck with a huge debt in the US and who knows it's going to be really really interesting and a lame duck government essentially

44:54Andreas Steno:so my favorite Dario has also joined the comment section I can see Dario Perkins our friend at T.S. Lombard thanks for watching Dario he's a macroeconomist if you want a very contrarian take go read Dario's stuff right now his take is that AI is a nothing burger right now that's a pretty everyone is either screaming oh it's the shit or else that oh no it's going to ruin the world but Dario's there you cannot see it in any macro which is a pretty nice take um so thanks for that dario uh and by the way he dario is also very good at insults i i remember having a coffee with milk um i think at like 11 a.m uh recording a podcast with dario at one point and he went mad so that's the italian spirit right uh do not drink coffee with milk after 10 a.m i can guarantee you that you'll piss off a lot of people in Italy.

45:53Mikkel Rosenvold:I never do. That's the easy way of getting around that. You do a lot of advice. I have to throw you under the bus here. It's flat wide. It's Cortana. It's whatever.

46:05Mikkel Rosenvold:I don't know if that's allowed. Probably neither.

46:10Andreas Steno:It's not even allowed to ask for one in Italy. I think so.

46:17Mikkel Rosenvold:Absolutely addressed. Let's look at the questions we're getting here. I need to go to that. I'm on the platform from my phone. I just need to. One second here. We had a question on US crypto regulation. I'm just trying to find it here. Yeah. Oh, what's up here? Sorry. Nice to be chatting with you today. Likewise, Jimmy. Maybe this is the right forum to explore this. But do you see the new US crypto regulations as the start of a kind of survival of the fittest phase, where a large share of altcoins might struggle to stay listed or relevant in the US. And how do you think this will play out over the next few years?

46:54Mikkel Rosenvold:More of a gradual shakeout or something that could hit the currency fairly quickly?

46:59Andreas Steno:Okay, let me say a few things, right? To me, it would be great if we could kill some of the more moronic altcoins. You know, I've always been a crypto utility guy. So even though I've occasionally traded meme coins just for the fun of it, I actually think it would be a good idea if Dogecoin and Fodcoin and all that shit went to zero. And I sincerely say that. I mean that. Because it would allow the crypto utility case to gain more focus. And the crypto utility case has never been more bright. Never. We're talking about stablecoin issuance that is growing 100 % a year-ish, something like that. at least if you look at it from a transactional volume perspective, right?

47:41Andreas Steno:Issuance is growing 50 %-ish. And we're talking almost, I think, 10 trillion-ish in annual total transaction volumes on stablecoins. So I went through this whole exercise in trying to make a bottoms-off valuation of ETH and Solana and some of these chains earlier this week. and I'd like to oh what a good question that's coming in right now we'll take that we need to answer that as the last question today but what I was about to say is that I'm at least partially a fundamental I'd like to see some sort of valuation case that makes sense if you put in some growth parameters that make sense and for ETH in particular but to some extent also Solana and Sui, for that matter, you'll need to see an incredible growth in transaction fees for the current valuation to make sense.

48:43Andreas Steno:And that has been the case for years. So for now, I mean, most of these coins trade on their terminal rate in a sense because it's not a tangible scenario to get that kind of transaction fee level, new return rate. But is it possible that we 20x fees on Solana, for example? In my opinion, very possible if we get the agendic economy rolling. Is that a story for 2026? I mean, if you had asked me first of GAN, I would have said no. Now, with all of the announcements we've seen in the AI space, I'd say, who knows? I mean, at least I'm not categorically refusing it now. Now, my point is just if you get microtransactions running between agents, which is where we're heading?

49:35Andreas Steno:Again, this morning, oh, I've got a lot of good anecdotes for that breakfast. Maybe I should eat breakfast with this guy more often. But he told me about this simple payment monitor that they had created for worksmen, basically. So when they park their car next to the apartment, the house that they're going to visit, and it's a paid parking zone, this agent that they built automatically adds the parking fee to the bill for the client. And this is something that most of these workers, they typically forget, right? Very, very, very simple agentic setup. and something that you could run as a business without any operators, which is, by the way, probably the future for a lot of entrepreneurs.

50:19Andreas Steno:I mean, it's basically the way that we're trying to guide our business makers as well. Launch small shops, one, 200K annual recurring revenue, many of them. You already see it in the business formation statistics that we're seeing a lot of single-man shops opening up around the countries, right? So, wow, I'm getting completely out of attention. I'm going completely out of attention here. What I was trying to say is that I actually think that it's good if we enter the survival of the fittest phase that he was referring to around old coins and that regulations push us in that direction. Yes, I think it's correct, and I think it's good.

51:03Andreas Steno:That was a very long answer to that question.

51:06Mikkel Rosenvold:At least you could get some decoupling of that. It would be very interesting. Do you want to get to the good question here? Because I think we could spend a few minutes on this. Yes. So Prudent Theo asks us here a question for you guys. We're both Danish. Just to introduce the question here. Norway or Sweden? In all aspects, not only investing. I'll let you begin on that.

51:35Andreas Steno:Okay. investing right now, Norway. I mean, energy is a good bet right now. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Sweden. They actually have London. It's one of your favorites. I like that. I like that. Yeah. Not the murderer, but the company. It's one of the few best murderers we have in Denmark. He's called London as well. Yeah,

51:57Mikkel Rosenvold:yeah, yeah. And their founder was called Adolf London. And Adolf is kind of a name. and Londin is in Denmark, is on the same level in Denmark because it was Denmark's worst mass murderer was called Londin. So to be called Adolf Londin is like being called Adolf Manson or something in the US. I don't know. Doing great, Londin. They're even going into space tech for their mining operations. So that's always a good way to get in there.

52:26Andreas Steno:Okay, so they're going to mine the gold in space. Maybe. I've heard a lot of pundits talking about that.

52:31Mikkel Rosenvold:I mean, come on. I'm not sure. We'll see. so first of all Finland for me but besides that I love Finnish people they're the best aside from that I love going to Norway but it's got to be Sweden for me in all aspects I have to say I love Sweden I love the language is so beautiful it's yeah okay

53:01Andreas Steno:Before I throw insults at the Norwegians here, pardon my French now. I've always considered Norway like the Qatar of Scandinavia, right? They have absolutely no work ethic. They leave office at 2 p.m. at the latest. Why not? Because, you know, they know, oh, yeah, we have the oil, right? and then probably a handful of years back they started sounding like you know okay we're not going to drill for any more oil and we don't want to invest in oil and so now they don't sound like the Qataris anymore and I actually respected the old Norwegian style more where they were like yeah we have the fucking oil we'll leave at 2pm who cares so they've actually they've gotten closer to us in their rhetoric, which I actually, I don't find that fitting.

54:00Andreas Steno:Go back to your old Qatari style. I mean, you have so much money out there. What I've always lamented, and it's a suggestion if any Norwegian politicians are watching, why haven't you bought a Premier League club yet with that fucking oil fund? Buy a sports team. Buy a team in the NFL. Do something. do something that the one Grand Prix

54:24Mikkel Rosenvold:in the shorts

54:25Andreas Steno:whatever yeah create a golf tour yeah I mean we really need a European country with that kind of leverage of the Americans please Norway you're the only country with a fund that is capable of doing stuff like that buy Scotty Scheffler that's what I'm saying buy him please yeah

54:45Mikkel Rosenvold:Cristiano are not going to play for Bordeaux Glimps probably or not. So the way I view this address, of course, one thing to remember that people often misunderstand about Scandinavia is Scandinavia really was only two countries for most of history, Denmark and Sweden. Denmark was the big one. Then Sweden was a lot better and dominated Denmark for the past few hundred years. But Norway and Finland were appendixes. Norway to Denmark, Finland to Sweden then Norway uh switched over to Sweden um but but but Denmark and Sweden were the countries Norway if you go to Oslo look at all the statues where were they kings were the kings in Norway yeah but they ruled from Copenhagen so it's all Danish kings so no uh we probably got lost all the Norwegians now uh the thing about Swedish and and and I don't know if you agree with this but the way I feel about Swedes is that they are they're very they're they're the same as they're just 5 % better in everything.

55:45Mikkel Rosenvold:They're a little bit more perfect. I mean, they're better hair, a little bit of looking. They have industry. They can make cars. They're better in sports. They beat us in most sports. And they're, I mean, they're just a little bit better in everything. A little bit more self-righteous, a little bit more, yeah, that's the way I view the suites. They don't have as much fun as us, perhaps, but a little bit better in everything, a little bit more perfect. And yeah, I love going to Stockholm. I love going to Udeborg to all over Sweden essentially, so that's going to be my pick.

56:16Andreas Steno:Mikkel, you're our soccer, football expert here at Real Vision when was the last time Norway played in the World Cup? They're going to play in the World Cup this summer. Was it in 98? When did they beat Brazil? Was that in 98 as well?

56:32Mikkel Rosenvold:Yeah, they beat them in the group phase, I think I just recall that

56:37Andreas Steno:soundbite from the Norwegian commentator just shouting, we're the best in the world! Brazil and yeah, they didn't I don't think they progressed from the group either.

56:50Mikkel Rosenvold:Yeah, they did. They went to the second round. I think they lost to Italy. Denmark went around further there. We're not going to be better than them this summer. We have to admit that. We're complete shit compared to Norway. Norway is probably a dark hole to win the thing. So that would be horrible, Andreas. That would be the worst. I don't know what I'd do in that case. They can win all the medals they want in the Winter Olympics. They can do whatever they want. No one cares. But, you know, for them to win that trophy, that would be horrible. It would be very, very horrible, Andres. But let's hope we even get there.

57:22Mikkel Rosenvold:That's the thing. So any final remarks, Andres? This has been a lot of fun. We've had a lot of great list of questions. I hope we get to do these more often. We'll see about that. So let me just briefly recap.

57:37Andreas Steno:I think yesterday was at a hard moment in relation to this white coding of Bloomberg. And, you know, I think the cell office is overdone in everything that is quality software here. I actually think Citrine's doompaper on Monday might have marked the exact bottom. Our now casting is pretty upbeat. That, of course, doesn't exclude the possibility that these AI fears would drive everything. And, by the way, we got a tremendous reading from the Chicago PMI today. So I think we should expect some fireworks from the PMIs next week. So, I mean, the cycle is improving. Inflation is actually, at least in consumer terms, moving lower.

58:19Andreas Steno:It's not really in producer terms. And that's not a bad backdrop. And can crypto leave this software-as-a-service basket? No, I don't think it can leave it because it is software-as-a-service, in my opinion. But it is a part of the software as a service sector that is well equipped to deal with AI and very well equipped to deal with the move from macro transactions to micro transactions. And I think that's basically what we're staring at. I don't know whether the agentic economy will thrive this year. Of course, we'll see bits and pieces from it. But it's probably something that is feasible within a few years.

59:00Andreas Steno:and I don't know anyone outside of this RV community really on top of that. I mean, if I say something like this to my old colleagues in banks, they don't even know what I'm talking about, right? So, I mean, there's still a potential here. Having said that, and I happen to admit to that, also given the question we got on silver, we probably have, between friends here, 20 % plus in metals bets, something like that. and around 8 % of our portfolio in crypto. So I guess that's a little telling, but I like transparency. That's how I'm positioned right now. Absolutely.

59:40Mikkel Rosenvold:So great to join you, Andres. I'm going to do the wrap-up really quickly because I'm getting cold by the boss here. So thanks to everyone for joining. It's wonderful timing, my daughter. So anyway, thanks for joining. Thanks to you, Andres. Thanks to everyone, I really wish you and all your listeners for joining in. check in with us every monday for macro mondays and check out the options at real vision if you want even more of our research have fun out there have a great weekend you obviously enjoyed the episode because you're here with me at the end but listen don't forget to go to realvision.com forward slash join and grab a free membership it's an incredible community packed with alpha great investment ideas and the research that you need to help you unfuck your future so get started now, go to realvision.com forward slash join.

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