Pro Crypto: 2025 Market Outlook by Coinbase ft. David Duong

26:48Because, you know, as they're kind of already working on just stablecoin legislation more broadly, we're already seeing innovations in the form of like newer stablecoins, for example, Athena, like other things kind of like arising and actually, you know, representing challenges to the existing kind of framework that we have for just, you know, current fiat backed stablecoins. Yeah, and it's just a question now of getting it over the line. But one of the interesting things about stablecoin legislation and the framework for it, as you say, is this idea of, you know, look, lots of stuff in crypto.

27:21We've got to figure out de novo. This is something that there's a lot of evidence for, for example, the commercial paper market. How you back assets with cash and cash equivalent securities, U.S. treasuries, et cetera, is something that's been thought through very thoroughly already on the traditional finance side. Absolutely. And, you know, it's, you know, we keep kind of reinventing or rediscovering the same things. But, you know, to be fair, at least in traditional finance, it's not as if like there are like too many permutations of the things like outside of strict borrowing and lending. These are all kind of permutations of that, you know, everything that we have from like CVS's to other things.

27:59But I digress. I would say that when it comes to stablecoins and it comes to even looking into strategic Bitcoin reserves and other things, I think that the same concepts apply in terms of risk management, in terms of making sure that we're doing the right thing. But what's interesting about stablecoins is that so many people have come out here and actually looked at it, not just from the lens of like, what will this do to, you know, support like remittances and other things that are still fairly costly in the world. But like, how does it even help, say, the US, for example, like, we saw Paul Ryan, for example, making this argument in his op ed in the Wall Street Journal, talking about how this could be very supportive for the US debt market.

28:49Because, you know, right now, stablecoin issuers represent, like, I believe the 16th or 17th largest buyer of treasuries that are out there. So I think that this is also going to be the lens in which a lot of legislation is going to be perceived. Yeah, that's really an intriguing topic for sure. I know we keep doing this sort of lightning round thing, but there's just so much to cover here as we talk about the outlook for 2025. Let's talk a little bit about DeFi, which dovetails rather nicely with everything we've been talking about. That's a great place because I think the shift in the US regulatory landscape is definitely going to be very supportive for DeFi.

29:26And DeFi has had this kind of like, it's come in waves, you know, like I think DeFi, the real advent of it kind of happened in 2020 and 2021. And a lot of that had to do with yield farming and other things and, you know, projects trying to capture incentives. But it kind of came and went and then people were like, Oh, well, DeFi is dead. There's no opportunities here anymore. And there's been, of course, this DeFi resurgence. And what's been interesting is that you've also seen very large, important players in the traditional markets, like, for example, Fed Governor Chris Waller actually talking about DeFi just a few months ago, saying that it's complementary to traditional finance or centralized finance.

30:10And I think that was a big statement from someone who has kind of shown more skeptical crypto leanings in the past. So you're seeing that DeFi is capturing the imagination, not just among crypto natives, but also among people in the traditional finance space itself. So I think that DeFi itself is going to see a mass resurgence in 2025. You know, like I kind of mentioned things like stable coins, like Athena and other things, they're enabling a lot more risk taking than they did previously, and in a much more thoughtful kind of way. And it's kind of dovetails nicely with AI agents, other things, like new chains that are out there, they're trying to capitalize on this.

30:51So I very much think that we're going going to see DeFi come back. And it's not just going to benefit some of the older players, like your Uniswaps, or even some of your younger players, like Drift or other markets. But I think that we're going to see a change in the way DeFi is going to be played in the new year. Yeah. Let's move on to the other pillars. This is really interesting. We talked a little bit about this, which is UI, UX, account abstraction, all of these things, which in my view, at least, along with security are probably the two outstanding issues that need to be continued to be refined in order to get large-scale adoption.

31:28Talk a little bit about this pillar big picture and why you believe it's so important in the space. Yeah, I believe that the UI UX, the user experience itself has been well thought of over the course of the down market. And, you know, like this idea that we build during down markets and then we sell like during like the up markets. I think was definitely featured very heavily here because we saw a lot of developers kind of say, well, hold on. If we want to actually onboard the next billion users into crypto, well, we need to have something that their average user can kind of get behind. And unfortunately, a lot of crypto infrastructure is still very cumbersome for people to use.

32:13People don't necessarily know how to get on board with wallets, for example, because for those of us who have been in this space, it's really easy to say like, Oh, yeah, I got some ETH and I started playing or I got some soul and I started playing on these markets. But if you didn't know that, if you didn't know you had to cover gas fees, if you didn't know that in order to use an app, you need to already have a wallet with some ETH sitting in your wallet, all this stuff is somewhat complex. I mean, it's kind of a bootstrapping issue. So a lot of that has started to be abstracted away because now we're seeing paymasters kind of come in from the app side of things, kind of saying like, well, we can actually cover those costs because the costs themselves have cheapened out significantly given the fact that we now have like either cheaper chains or layer two sitting on Ethereum that are also like, you know, less than a penny to kind of charge per transaction.

33:07So we're now in a place where we can enable that user experience. Smart wallets are now a thing. You can kind of just go inside and start using rather than kind of writing down a 12 word like passkey. So I think that this is going to enable the adoption growth that we've been kind of looking forward to. Now, is it going to come in all at once? I don't think it always works out quite that way. I think these things kind of come in in waves. But as like more and more people experiment with stuff and finding that it's a lot easier now to kind of use, I think this is what's going to enable and facilitate the greater adoption that we were looking for.

33:49Yeah, it's unquestionably a paradigm shift in terms of bringing users on board. All those technologies, everything we just touched on right there, so important to understanding the way that the next million users are going to be brought onto crypto and beyond. Let's talk a little bit about the majors, which you touched on there. Let's talk a little bit about your outlook for Bitcoin, ETH, XRP, Solana, the big ones in the space. Give us your 50 ,000-foot overview on what you see in 2025 as being your base case scenario. Yeah, some of the frontier ones, well, I wouldn't say frontier is not the right word, but your XRP, Sols, LTCs, HBARs.

34:26I think people are looking at the potential for ETF applications to be approved on those. enabling a greater wave of inflows. But I'd probably look more towards what's going to happen in terms of staking being included in ETFs or a move from cash to in-kind creations and redemptions of those shares because they have created inefficiencies that have also made it difficult for some of the larger institutional players in the space, I'm talking about your pension fund endowments, to really participate. And as that shift happens, I could see that those inflows could actually start to really continue this trend that we've seen of more funds, more flows going into these ETFs being a pretty large catalyst.

35:17So it's a different way of kind of looking at it than just the overall, like more, more applications, more ETF issuers going into like different, like different, like tokens. I don't think that's the way we should be strictly thinking about this. But also, I think for Bitcoin and for ETH, it's going to be a big year for them. I mean, obviously, we've already seen some pretty large milestones, especially for Bitcoin in terms of large round numbers. But I think that given how much attention has been put on a potential Bitcoin strategic reserves, not just at the top level, because, of course, we saw that at Bitcoin Nashville.

35:54But now you're seeing a lot more countries kind of talking about it as well, like Brazil, Germany, like the Czech National Bank just mentioned it. And as well as in the U.S. on a state level as well, because on the state level, you've seen Pennsylvania, Texas kind of mentioning the possibility. I think the idea that Bitcoin could be included in more corporate treasuries, if they can kind of figure out the insurance issues, the fact that they could be included in potentially like sovereign kind of reserves. I think all these things could be meaningful for Bitcoin's move to the next new milestones.

36:31Yeah, really fascinating topic. There's another show we could do, 60 minutes on just the implication of sovereign reserves of Bitcoin. Let me ask you this, since you touched on the ETF. This is an interesting debate because there are two schools of thought here broadly. One is, of course, obviously ETFs are good for the digital asset ecosystem to have the ability to take more exposure to it, to have institutions that are perhaps banned because of their investment charter from taking direct positions in crypto. The other position is that it's kind of antithetical to the idea of the space, that it's improved backward, that people should be holding these assets on chain.

37:04I'm curious about where you land on that. Yeah, I mean, it's tough because I hear them. I mean, what has made this particular cycle different from others is that in the past, because things were held mostly on chain, you saw this kind of progression away from like Bitcoin into ETH into other alternative assets as people took this stuff and used this stuff. And I think it is still happening because, Because just thinking about the virtuous cycle created when you have ETH that's of a higher value, for example, because the stuff sitting in your Aave or other places is now worth more and that you can actually free up capital to actually do more things in the DeFi space.

37:48I think that is still happening. So it's not necessarily this idea like, well, this gets all locked up in institutions somewhere and therefore it's completely on tap. I mean, it's not entirely untrue, but it's also not the complete story. So I do think that, you know, that's going to continue, you know, perhaps being a part of the narrative that we currently have. But we're still seeing that because Bitcoin is worth more, because a lot more Bitcoin is kind of getting locked up and honestly sitting there and not doing a whole lot. I think that this is what has motivated people to kind of saying like, well, let's build out this new like Bitcoin ecosystem with respect to like Bitcoin layer twos, for example, other things that I think are like seeing a lot more development right now.

38:40Things like Babylon, things like Stacks, for example, are starting to pick up. And people are trying to figure out, what do we do with the Bitcoin that's sitting there? And those institutional entities I mentioned are going to take advantage of that because they're not going to let money sit on the table. So we're just kind of sitting, waiting for these developments to kind of break out as more and more of these long-term Bitcoin holders that are kind of increasing, starting to figure out what to do with those tokens. Yeah, speaking of L2s and Ethereum, I was wondering if you could give us your thoughts about BASE.

39:14I know that you guys have a sort of separation of church and state there at Coinbase, and you take an agnostic view of markets. But I'm curious what your view is about the role that BASE is going to play in the Ethereum ecosystem. Yeah, so BASE has obviously grown massively in terms of both TVL as well as in terms of transaction activity. and it's now the second largest like layer two sitting on Ethereum. And, you know, I would say that right now and, you know, Jesse Pollack, who leads the team, could do a much better job of explaining what's on the horizon more than myself. But there are a lot of plans in place in terms of trying to bring a base into like the newer ecosystem and increased adoption of crypto users.

40:04And a big part of that has to do with kind of the applications that are kind of being attracted and building on here, virtuals being one of them, for example, that I've previously mentioned. I think that you're seeing the amount of wallets that are on base also kind of picking up. And this is kind of dovetailing nicely with other things that are happening at Coinbase itself. Because, for example, we have identity being a big part of that. And this kind of goes into what we were talking about earlier in terms of account abstraction and other things, because now that we have like the ability to kind of verify users and kind of create like kind of carve outs in terms of how applications want to use like verified users.

40:45I think that that could also be a very large prospect for like, you know, the crypto ecosystem as a whole, but also base in particular. Yeah, and by the way, talking of Jesse Pollack, I should say, I did a deep dive interview with him right here on Real Vision. Shameless plug, if you're not a Real Vision pro crypto subscriber, you should sign up now and go take a look at that on the platform. We talk about it in some detail. He not only runs the team, of course, he's the creator of BASE. Gosh, we've blown through so much information here in the first 40 minutes of this conversation. David, I want to throw the car keys over to you and let you walk us through some points of the report, some charts, some visuals that maybe might help bring down to earth some of these conversations that we've just had, some of these topics we've just addressed.

41:29Because I know you've done a lot of research. It's a monster 85-page report. We should probably tell people where they can download it because I believe it's available to download for free from Coinbase now. That's right. You know, probably the easiest thing for people to do is just go to Google right now or your favorite search engine and type in Coinbase CryptoMarketOutlook 2025 and it should be the first thing that kind of pops up. But, you know, like I think that there's about 85 pages worth of content in here. And, you know, like we try to, you know, aim for the middle in terms of making sure that we didn't go too far above people's heads and, you know, talk about things that they don't understand in terms of how the tech works or other things.

42:12but enough data and enough content in there that allows even a newbie to kind of come in and pick it up and be like, oh, okay. Like, you know, L2 is on Ethereum. This is something that I didn't need to think about or like, how should I be thinking about the stable coin market? So, you know, like I really would encourage people to kind of pick it up and find whatever topic that you think is most interesting to you and kind of dive into it. Yeah, and I should say, I think it's available. The link is available on the description for this conversation as well. One of the things that maybe we could bring this up, the chart that's on page nine, which is the correlation matrix, 2024 data year to date.

42:50This is the full year to date or close to it on correlations. This is an interesting table always to look at and one that you always bring in this report. Talk a little bit about what we saw in 2024 in terms of asset correlation, cross asset correlation, and what your expectations are for 2025. five. Yeah. So this is just a snapshot based on like the data we had at the time, which basically spans 11 months from January to November 2024. And, you know, what I would like to kind of point out is that the correlations we've seen between Bitcoin and the S &P 500, for example, or NASDAQ, pick or pick in terms of US equity markets that you prefer.

43:29I mean, it's really doesn't really make a huge amount of difference. Is that still the correlations, even though like people, like to kind of point out, oh, well, they tend to converge higher over different periods. It's still on the lower end. And actually, the relationship between, say, Bitcoin or crypto, more broadly, with the S &P 500 or US equities is still fairly low, which is to say it doesn't have much of a strong relationship at all. And actually, I think somewhere in the report, We also have a scatterplot chart where we look at different periods. And it's very eye-opening because you can kind of see that really the correlation periods only happened in periods where everything in the kitchen sink was going out the window.

44:21Like when all markets were kind of converging because the Fed hyped rates by 500 basis points. Yes, the correlation spiked higher, but that was a very, very unique period. outside of that, the correlations tend to remain fairly low. But also what's interesting is that if you look at Bitcoin's correlation with most other assets, for example, it's either low or has no relationship at all, which is to say that it still exists as a very strong diversifying asset in most people's portfolios. And what's really interesting about that is that as you add like more and more crypto into your portfolio. And I'm not trying to advocate for an optimal percentage in a portfolio.

45:09But as you increase it, your amount of diversification goes up on a faster than linear basis. So if you add 1%, it's around like 1.2%, for example. But if you add 3%, then it's closer to like 4%. So as you kind of put into this, you have to kind of keep in mind that it gives you exposure on a systemic perspective on a systemic basis to something that exists outside of what would commonly be in your portfolio with respect to like equities or bonds so i think that this is what is best captured by a correlation matrix like this um and something that you know we really need to add on here which i'm going to do in the future is like we've now just launched our coin 50 index as well and it's also a good way of kind of examining tell us about Yeah.

45:54So the coin 50 index actually is a little bit different from the existing indices or benchmarks that currently exist. And I think that's all the way in the last section, probably the last few pages, actually. Wow, you found it in one go. I'm really impressed. It's like you read this thing. So the coin 50 index actually tries to get exposure to a broad set of sectors in the crypto ecosystem. because we have other benchmarks out there. I'm not going to disparage those benchmarks, but they are heavily balanced towards smart contract platforms. And we, of course, have that as well. But the Coin50 Index caps the weight of any particular token at 50%.

46:39So even when Bitcoin's dominance actually increases to, say, 60%, we will cap it at 50%. And beyond that, we are looking at the top 50 tokens by market cap and try to rebalance it in a way where you get exposure to different things. So here, beyond just like layer ones and layer twos, for example, you also have access to meme coins. You have access to payments and stable coins, media and entertainment, D-Pin, DeFi. So this way, if you're someone who doesn't want to do research into every little asset that's out there, but you just say to yourself, I just want exposure to crypto. I don't want to have to research every AI agent, a particular token, related token out there.

47:30Like, let me just buy or kind of get exposure to the Coinbase 50 index instead in a way that allows me to have that. Now, right now, to get that, you can probably do perps if you're outside the U.S., but inside the U.S., you aren't able to do that. But we're working on trying to figure out ways for people to do this right now. Yeah, that's really interesting. And, of course, the vibes in the space change every 22 minutes, it seems, when you talk about what those bleeding edge assets are that everyone's talking about and buzzing about. But really interesting in terms of ways to get exposure. I also wanted to take a look at this chart on page 13, titled Tokenization Revolution.

48:07Holy hell, look at private credit on that chart. Talk a little bit about this. This is fascinating. Yeah, this is interesting because a lot of people tend to think of tokenization mainly on the US debt side of things. And yes, we've seen that money market funds, US Treasury debt, they capture the attention because a lot of the large institutional names that we know in this space, like BlackRock, like Franklin Templeton, are doing a lot with those assets. But actually, a lot has been happening on the private credit side. And this is not a new thing. This has been happening since at least late 2023, early 2024, but people don't pay attention to it.

48:51And this is kind of what we mean in terms of we think that tokenized assets actually represent a new paradigm for a lot of institutional investors. Because now, because things are tokenized, you can actually have it sitting as collateral for when you're buying call or put options, for example. And it's fungible with other things. And you can actually program it so that if you need to actually have a margin call or other things programmatically, it can be done immediately. So you don't have to have an intermediary standing between and kind of managing that. So it's a new way of doing things that we think are going to be massive and change the way that, you know, the way traditional finance is done today.

49:37So this is why we think as things grow, a lot of these other sectors in terms of corporate bonds, stocks, which, you know, still represent very little in terms of tokenized assets, you know, these are very, very low hanging fruit for this space, because it's already like digital. So because of that, it's super easy to take that and actually tokenize it. Yeah, so interesting, the points that you make there about the ability to do straight through processing and other programmatic things when you can post assets as collateral on-chain directly. It opens up just whole new worlds. Really, really interesting stuff that I'm sure we're going to talk about more in the future.

50:16David, I'm always interested to see which charts make the first 20 or 25 pages. This is an interesting one on page 15. Telegram bots. Take a look at this, if we could, and tell us a little bit about the significance of Telegram bots. Yeah, this is interesting because I don't think a lot of people realize that Telegram bots actually represented one of the largest profit centers in crypto in 2024. And, you know, they've probably been, I would say, like the most profitable sector, which you can kind of see in terms of, you know, like the blue lines on this chart. They've actually even eclipsed some of the other traditional like kind of DeFi profit centers that we've seen in the past, like Aave, MakerDAO, which rebranded themselves Sky, in terms of net protocol revenue.

51:02Because a lot of that was actually the result of, to be honest, meme coin trading activity in 2024. And, you know, meme coins were one of the best performing crypto sectors in 2024 by a wide margin. And a lot of people have disparaged that because they're like, oh, meme coins, what value do they really have? Well, there's real trading activity that's happening with meme coins. And for whatever they're worth, I mean, people are pretty upfront about what they represent. Maybe they don't have inherent value in and of themselves, but people want to trade them. People want to bet on them because A, they represent an attention market.

51:39And B, having a pulse on that is a skill and it's a talent. So Telegram bots are a way that people were using that. They were there. It's a chat based interface for being able to trade not just mean points, but other tokens as well. But a lot of custodial wallets were created, you know, in order to kind of respond to this. So, you know, like they can be funded, managed by just like text commands that you have on Telegram, you know, which is for people who don't know a chat program. And, you know, like these bots were trading on different platforms, but primarily Solana. I'm glad you brought up mean coins.

52:17I was actually just talking about this on Real Vision yesterday. I'm a little bit skeptical of mean coins myself. It's this question of underlying utility. I mean, no question about it. They can be very profitable if you're good at trading them. Unquestionably true. But the question that I always bring up is where's the ultimate accretive value of this? How do you expand the Pareto frontier on this? How do you create more value other than like, you trade better than I do. So my gains are your losses, your losses are my gains. Like, is there any real fundamental utility here? Is there some way for this to be grafted on top of fundamental utility?

52:50I know these are big picture questions, and it's really early to think about, but I'm curious, just from your gut level, like, what does your instinct tell you about these coins? I think that we're seeing the transformation of this sector right now. And a lot of that has to do with kind of things we've already mentioned on this call, like AI agents and other things, because, you know, AI agents, one of the things they've done is create their own meme coins, for example, and kind of allow that to be traded and kind of promoted them. And we've seen what they can do with it. I think it's more of a template for what we can see in the future in terms of transforming like other assets, for example, that are out there.

53:28And you've seen that with AIXBT, for example, kind of making comments on other aspects of, you know, like other analysis on assets that kind of exist out there. But I think that you have a point as far as, man, like a lot of the meme connectivity, and I'm not good at trading it either. So you're not alone, Ash. But I would say that some of these like meme coin launchers, like Pump, for example, have done fairly well because they've been able to take advantage of it. But that's also created this infrastructure around it in terms of making the infrastructure better. You know, I think Anatoly from Solana made this comment that actually because of all the meme connectivity sitting on their platform, like they were forced to kind of adapt and actually make their platform better in order to kind of accommodate all of that trading.

54:17So I think what we're going to see is that as a first instance, it's going to change the way Dex trading kind of works, like how the ease of use for a lot of users are. And again, it kind of goes back to account abstraction, for example. And, you know, like tokens that aren't listed on exchanges yet, but might in the future, like how do these kind of agents kind of respond to that? How do they use it? I think all of this is going to add on to the functionality that we have to the existing infrastructure and probably make things like market depth better as well as like improve liquidity. So I think from that perspective, it's actually improving the user experience for everyone.

54:57But I hear you from a very like superficial, like kind of shallow level. You kind of look at it and be like, oh, meme coins, like what do they really offer us? It's offering us all this stuff in the background, but like active trading, if you're not really kind of involved in this stuff, I can see how it's a little hard to see. Well, that's actually a really good answer because, you know, I've sort of said before that meme coins allow the haters to point to it and say, look, this is all silliness. You guys are just ridiculous. But you bring this interesting point up, which is it develops infrastructure, creates liquidity, demand depth, and perhaps that helps to build out some infrastructure for some things that there is greater utility for in the future.

55:33By the way, this is a really interesting chart. Page 17. Talk about things that are really early, but really fascinating in terms of the opportunities that might present themselves in the future. I find that this intersection between gaming and digital assets to be a really fascinating one. Walk us through this chart. Tell us a little bit about what we're seeing here and what your view is for the future of crypto games. Yeah, we talked about gaming in our 2024 outlook as well. And at the time, we also said that we were on the precipice of seeing more crypto integrated games actually becoming dominant in the crypto sector.

56:11And to some extent, that has happened. And the reason we thought that was because it takes about, you know, two, maybe three years, sometimes longer to come up with a really good AAA game. And because a lot of that investment in crypto integrated games were made back in 2021, like 2024, 2025, was right around the time we would see the fruition of those efforts. And, you know, to some extent that's happened. Like Off the Grid was a very big game in 2024. and we saw that on some of the streaming platforms where people kind of watch gameplay, for example, all of the grid was in the top five, not top 10 for those things.

56:55So I think that that was probably the first instance of it. And we're moving away from this play-to-earn model, which I think many people were familiar with, with respect to games and crypto and a lot of that had to do with Axie Infinity because that was the first time people started realizing, hey, like there's a way to start integrating crypto into games. But we're kind of moving away from play to earn and more into this, what I refer to as already a few times, as crypto integration. And I think that the difference is that now, like the way you kind of use crypto in games is a lot more optional.

57:30You can opt in to actually how you want to use crypto in a game and you can kind of own the game fully on-chain now in a way that you didn't previously with the previous model. So it doesn't necessarily detract from the gameplay itself, which I think sits better with the gamers. And so I think that this is kind of where game developers are meeting gamers who have in the past been somewhat skeptical about having crypto in their games. Yeah, and to your point, it's just so very early. Look, games have to be fun. If they're not fun, people don't want to play them. But this is just a huge, huge industry.

58:09If you're not a gamer yourself, if you don't have kids who game, this is like a$200 billion a year industry, bigger than Hollywood and the music business combined. And if you think about it from a demographic perspective, these are the folks who are going to be interacting with the financial system and everything else. Just as an ecosystem, as a model for UI, UX, for interaction, it's been just a massive, overwhelming success. us, it's hard to believe that crypto wouldn't have something to learn from some of those models. That's right. And, you know, I think that the focus has been on the AAA games, and I think rightly so, because that's where a lot of the blockbuster, like money making stuff kind of occurs.

58:48And, you know, you can think of choose whatever game that pops in your head for that. But I also think that we'll see other distribution channels as well, because so far, like mobile games, for example, haven't been quite the focus. But I think that that's another distribution channel for crypto integrated games. You know, and we've seen some of that already in like passive things like Telegram mini games and other stuff, which already kind of been the template for assuming that. So I think that that could be like the next wave of where gaming and crypto will intersect. And, you know, the less you need to have like this external wallet set up to kind of do this, I think that's going to more often reduce the onboarding frictions that have kind of kept people away from this.

59:31Yeah, and again, talk about things that are just at the beginning. The UI, the UX, the secure enclaves from the hardware perspective that could provide greater security, the ability to manage those wallets on devices like iPhones or your Android phone. It's such an interesting, interesting topic. Gosh, we've covered just so much here. We've just bounced around talking everything that is happening in the ecosystem right now in our outlook here for 2025 as we explore this Coinbase report. David, anything I missed? Anything you think that's important to get in? I mean, we've covered a lot. There are some things that, unfortunately, we don't have the time to kind of tackle.

1:00:06Like, I really wanted to get more into decentralized identity because I think that's also going to represent a very strong paradigm. And things are changing on that front because now, for example, to set up a wallet, you can just use a link or use your Google account or other things. So I think that's going to be a massive one as well. I do think that just the way things are changing with respect to the layer one, layer two, even layer three landscape is also going to be really big because more and more we're seeing this change in terms of liquidity fragmentation and how apps want to have their own app chain, how that could shift.

1:00:44I mean, infrastructure is always going to be a big topic. But I mean, we could probably go on this all day. But those are just like two more things that I'll probably just quickly highlight. David, there's only one solution. As always, you've got to come back and do this with us again. Come back and we'll dive into some of these topics in more detail. Obviously, we can only touch on them slightly here today because there's just so much happening in the space. But it's great to be able to get that 35 ,000-foot cruising altitude view of everything that's happening in the space as we head into this new year.

1:01:13Go and download the report if you haven't already over on the Coinbase website. There's a link right here in the description on Real Vision. And in the YouTube, I imagine when this posts on YouTube, great conversation. David, you make this fun. It's always fun to do this. Your infectious enthusiasm comes through every time you come on the show. I love being on this show. Don't tell any of the podcasts. This is my favorite show to be on. Final thoughts, key takeaways that you'd like to leave our listeners and our viewers with from this conversation about the 2025 Outlook. You know, just please go ahead and download it.

1:01:47I'm always open to chatting. You can find me on Twitter. and LinkedIn. And Ash, no, thank you so much for having me. Coinbase Institutional 2025 Crypto Market Outlook. David Duong, great conversation. Hope we can do this again soon. Thank you so much. Thanks for watching. Thanks for listening. Thanks for joining us. That's it for now. And remember, you can still get tickets for the in-person crypto gathering event later this month down in Miami. Head over to realvision.com forward slash CG2025. That's realvision.com forward slash CG2025. I will be there. Looking forward to seeing you there. Thanks for watching.

1:02:26Thanks for listening. Have a great afternoon, everybody. If you like this episode, I'd love for you to head over to realvision.com forward slash join for a free membership. Start your journey today to unfuck your future just one click away.

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