Decoding the C-Suite: Part 1 - The Thesis

0:17Hi there and welcome to Decoding the C-Suite, a five-part mini-series from Recruiting Future about how leadership really thinks about AI. Over hundreds of conversations with talent leaders, I've noticed a clear pattern. The organisations genuinely driving AI change in TA and HR all have one thing in common, and it isn't the technology they've bought. It's alignment with their C-suite. When the leadership team is behind the change, the investment, the urgency, and the permission to experiment all follow. Without that backing, even the best strategies stall in a business case that never gets quite signed off.

1:01So if you want to drive change in your organisation, you need to understand how the people around the top table actually think. From the CFO weighing the numbers to the CMO reading the market, and the product and people leaders who all see AI through the lens of their own function. And that is what this series is about. A few weeks back, I spent the day in New York with the leadership team at Smart Recruiters, seven months on from their acquisition by SAP, and right in the middle of an AI transformation. It was a rare opportunity to sit down with five senior leaders from the same company, on the record, each talking candidly about AI from the perspective of their own role.

1:47Over the coming episodes, you'll hear a CFO explain why the economics of AI break 30 years of SaaS business models, a marketing leader on building trust in a market full of hype, a product design leader on how far ahead of her customers she can afford to be, and a people leader rethinking what an organization actually is. Their answers will tell you a great deal about the conversations happening around your own leadership table and how to win them. This first episode is a little bit different. The team actually turned the tables and interviewed me. What you're about to hear is my honest assessment of where AI is taking talent acquisition, the outdated stories our industry keeps telling itself, and a prediction about candidates and AI agents that I'm prepared to be held to.

2:37It sets out the questions that I'll be testing in every episode that follows. This is Decoding the C-Suite, Episode 1, The Thesis. Matt, thank you Thank you for flying all the way out here to New York City I really appreciate it I appreciate you spending the time And having the conversations with the team It's really valuable time spent for us To be able to, one, talk a little bit about what's going on But also, thank you for letting me flip the script a little bit Because it's really valuable time for me and the team Because, listen, you spend a lot of time Talking to leaders and practitioners And people even outside our industry about what's going on.

3:17So I'd love to get your perspective on a couple of things. Absolutely. Well, it's always great to be in New York and it's great to be answering questions rather than asking them for a change. That's what you say now. Let's see what I can do to that. Anyway, no, I appreciate that. So let's start with this. You spent time, you've interviewed thousands, I mean, literally thousands of people across this industry. I'm really curious from your perspective, what do you think are the outdated stories that people are telling themselves? I think there are lots of them. And I think that we've been telling ourselves outdated stories about recruitment for hundreds of years.

3:54But I think from a technology perspective, I think there's still a sense that technology is something that makes things more efficient or makes things quicker or changes resource allocations. And I don't think people are fully appreciating the transformational potential of this moment and where technology is taking us and how it's going to change everything. I think that there is still a sense of looking at this as just another piece of technology development, and it'll make us faster and more efficient. And the story is much, much bigger than that. How much bigger? What else do you think is going to happen?

4:34I think this is a really key point in the evolution of the whole people function. There's almost a kind of a fork in the road here where AI just makes things possible that were never possible before. And it has the opportunity to add a huge amount of value to the way that companies hire and retain and develop people and probably solve a lot of the really stubborn problems that we've had for a really, really long time. On the flip side, if it isn't kind of handled properly and doesn't live up to its potential, it could also make things a whole lot worse. So I think there's a real choice there. And I think it's important that people realize that and make that choice deliberately rather than it being made for them.

5:25Yeah, I mean, I think that idea of making deliberate choices is a really important space. So if we're thinking about those sorts of deliberate choices, when you're advising and having deeper conversations with practitioners across the talent landscape, whether it be in talent acquisition, HR, or even business leaders in this space, what are the questions and spaces that you think they should be paying attention to? I think that the biggest danger around this is you use AI and you apply it to processes that you already have. Processes that may have not worked properly for some time. Processes that are just there because we have to work around things because we can't do things in the way that we want to.

6:10And unfortunately, I've seen that happening. That's happening quite a lot. And And really, my advice to people would be to take a step back and look at exactly why they do things the way they do them. And I think there are lots of questions that have never been asked, particularly about recruitment. Why do we do recruitment like this? Why do we have resumes? Why do we have interviews? And I think that those are the questions that we need to ask right now, because everything kind of needs to be stripped back so we can get a real sense of how do we do this in a way that is a win for everybody? everyone is a win for the candidate is a win for the recruiter is a win for the the employer that the hiring manager and that's only going to happen if you ask those questions and and take that pause and and look at everything because you really need to kind of redesign the way that you do things before you add ai to make them quicker or automate them or make them more intelligent or whatever whatever that is so i think the advice is to ask questions that you've never asked before about why you do things.

7:12And that's not just for recruiting. I think it's for everything because we live in a world where we've just inherited ways of doing things over a really long period of time. And they crystallize and they build up and they become the process and the way that things get done. And I think the companies that are going to really win at this are the ones who ask those questions and say, why do we do that? And do we need to do that? And should we do that? So this isn't a kind of a new concept, right? We've been talking about this for a while, Right. The idea that we needed to kind of reinvent from the from the ground up and have conversations about what this entire experience of both work, connecting people to work, being able to align people to the right work.

7:54These are these are questions that have been out there for a while. And what does this look like? But transparently, I mean, I know I've seen it. I'm sure you have. It's not something that we've been able to answer as of yet or people have been willing to go in and have that deeper conversation and dialogue. What do you think is preventing that? I think it's really interesting. I think it's the kind of layers on which this is built and how things change. So when we sort of talk about change in this area, the first thing is we look at people's behavior. So how are people behaving? If we can get them to behave in a different way, to do things in a different way, then that's going to be the change that we want.

8:30And then the people who go slightly deeper than that look at systems. So it's like, okay, actually the systems are driving the behavior. So we're going to change the systems or change all the systems, the way that it works, that kind of thing. And then it just kind of goes back to where it was and we don't get the change and nothing happens. And I think the reason for that is behind all of this, there are mental models about how work works, how work's supposed to be, how recruiting works. And we never challenge those mental models. And I think to give you an example, so the pandemic was something that came along and did challenge those mental models.

9:06Suddenly everyone you know people were working at home who didn't think they could possibly do their job at home but as time's gone on since the end of it things suddenly start to bring spring back it's like no no we need people back in the office and a lot of that is because it's challenged those mental models and they're sort of springing back into place so i think understanding that is really important and when it comes to work and it comes to jobs everyone in the world who has a job has been through some kind of recruitment process and has expectations about what that includes and how it works.

9:39And I think this is the real challenge. But I think if we understand that, if we understand that we're actually resetting the DNA of all of this, that's a very easy thing to say in a conversation like this, then we stand a much better chance of being successful. But it's not just about changing the system. It's about changing the thought process and the models that sit behind it. Yeah, I mean, I take that a step further. One of the conversations I was listening in that you had was with Tom, our CFO, and you were talking about going and building a business case, having a conversation about the evolution of AI inside a company, and talking about kind of ROI in that space.

10:13So I think there's this interesting challenge, right? Which is to build a business case, you have to have some sort of assumption or something that you can validate, prove a hypothesis, right? Yeah. And a lot of that is based on those mental models. Yeah. Right. So how do you see people starting to move past that? Are you seeing places where that's happening successfully, where people are able to position or have a conversation about how something may be different and move it forward? Yes, I think that it's been in, there's two types of companies where I've seen it happen. First of all, startups who are starting from nothing and can kind of build these things from the bottom up.

10:56But actually, if we're talking sort of specifically about AI driven change in talent, AI companies and technology companies, because it's just in their DNA to kind of understand it. And you see some of the things that companies like Zapier are doing, they're just reinventing it and enjoying the process because they have the resources to do it, they have the safety to do it. And it's just kind of within the kind of overall objective of their business. So those two types of companies, definitely. with everyone else. I think that whole sort of business case thing, I think that what we miss sometimes is a vision, if that makes sense.

11:37So I always say to people, it's like, what is your vision for talent or TA within your organization? And that sounds like something that's kind of a bit out there and aspirational or whatever, but everything kind of comes back from that. So if you are able to present a business case tied to a vision that sounds achievable, that is going to bring value, then I think there's more chance of people getting behind that because people get behind visions and directions and things like that. They don't get behind strategic plans and business cases. So I think having that vision is just really important.

12:09And I think that as a as a sort of discipline, our vision should be huge. I think we've got the opportunity to kind of really reinvent the way hiring works. And we haven't had that opportunity for hundreds of years. And I think that we should step up and do that. So I think it's that having that vision, I think also you could look at the future and say the future is unpredictable and uncontrollable and anything can happen. And that's true. But at the same time, people make the future. And I think if you have a vision and you're driving towards it, you're helping to shape the future around that.

12:43And that gives you more control. So I think that's how people should be thinking. Yeah, absolutely. So thinking about that vision, right? So there's a lot of different perspectives in the market, right? Do you as a practitioner or somebody who is trying to drive change inside your company, do you look towards academics? Do you look towards the vendors and the products that are coming out there? Or should vendors and products be looking to the businesses to see what they're trying to do? What is that kind of blend, right? Where do you see that going? And what's been working well? And what do you think is kind of some hot spots?

13:17Yeah, I think it's interesting because I think the problem is that there is just so much information. There is just so much, so much going on. And it's very difficult to kind of cut through that and really, really understand it. I think it's a mixture of all of those things, because you have to have a view on what the art of the possible is going to be, I think. And I think that's important. I mean, I think that talent and HR are in a reasonably lucky position because change is difficult. It can be quite change, you know, risk averse. There are other parts of the enterprise that have already taken this shift and moved forward more than HR has.

14:02So even finance in a lot of respects is kind of way out there when it comes to looking at the technology in terms of rethinking how they do. So I think you can look at the other parts of the enterprise and get a really good steer on what might be possible and what we can sort of achieve, what we can achieve with this. But I think it's a mixture of things. And I think a lot of it comes down to the individual as well and how much they educate themselves and understand what's possible and have that sort of that that degree of AI fluency whatever that looks like in the with everything changing every two weeks so I think that's that's a big part of it as well.

14:36Yeah are there places or experiences that you're seeing out there with companies who are successfully being able to build that AI fluency within their organizations? Yes, a lot of it comes down to understanding what that actually is and what that looks like. The key part of this is safety. It's psychological safety because this is a very strange situation where lots of people within an enterprise are using AI on a daily basis in their personal lives or in the software that they use at home. And their corporation might not have caught up with that yet. And actually, they're afraid to speak up. They're afraid to speak up because they might be seen as violating some kind of corporate policy.

15:22They're afraid to speak up because they might be doing themselves out of a job. I know a number of people who have automated big parts of their job under the radar and are not speaking up about it because they're fearing the consequence. And I think that organizations need to kind of really wake up to that because these are the people actually will help them drive change. So I think a lot of it is about making it safe to talk about AI. And it's difficult in an environment where AI is constantly being used as an excuse to cut jobs and change things and those sort of things. So I think a lot of this is, it's not even about technical ability, it's about safety.

15:59And a big part of this is risk, because this is risky. Things are changing. We don't know what works. And I think that companies who will be successful are the ones who realize that and tolerate it within, obviously, guardrails. Because the only way to get through this is to actually learn from failure, learn from getting things wrong. And I think that for a lot of organizations, that's not in their culture. And it just has to be for them to navigate this. Yeah. This risk question is a big question in this space, right? I mean, there has been, you don't need to discuss where and how, but listen, there's been enough lawsuits and a lot of government scrutiny around what's happening with people and people's data and how it's being leveraged and utilized and et cetera.

16:44It's making a lot of companies anxious, right? It's hitting against that risk tolerance. Where do you think that's going for all of us? It's an interesting one. And when you dig into it as well, a lot of the cases and the things that have happened haven't even been resolved yet. They may not even be cases. So we don't know what's going on. But I think that actually, having spoken to a lot of legal professionals around this, in many organizations, the legal function is kind of getting its head around this and getting ahead of it and understanding that things change all the time. It's important to protect the business, but actually, if you stand still and do nothing, there's more risk in that than doing something.

17:27But I think it's a problem. And I think the biggest issue is the perception around all of this. It's almost the perception of legislation and risk that hasn't actually happened. And it's going to be like this for a while. So it's going to have to be something that people find a way to navigate. Right. So to the companies who are out there saying, okay, well, fine, I'm just going to wait then till all the dust settles before I start kind of diving into the world of AI, what would you tell them? I mean, that's always the default stance, I think, with a lot of companies and certainly a lot of HR functions.

17:58And this time, it's just not going to work because you are going to be so far behind your competition and everything that happens. So it's just not an option in this time of technology change. I think if we look at all the other technology changes that have come in that have affected business, they've all taken a lot longer. I remember I started working in the internet in 1999 and it wasn't until about 2003, 2004, that a lot of the changes actually really happened. And with AI, while we're sitting here, they could have announced something that changes everything. And it's just moving too quickly.

18:37And I think the wait and see position that's served so many companies so well for so long just isn't going to work. Yeah, it's not necessarily the way we can move forward, yeah? So, Matt, I'm going to really flip the script on you. We've had many chances over the years to sit down and chat with each other. Usually where I will come off the cuff and say some wild thing that changes the world as we're going. So I'm going to pose one to you. I'm saying that. What do you think is going to happen to the field of talent acquisition and HR in the next two years that we're not ready for? It's already happening and we're still not ready for it.

19:16So what I mean by that, I think the innovation in this space is coming from the candidate side. It's not coming from the employers because they can't move quick enough. It's coming from the candidates because the market, the way it is at the moment, they're desperately looking for jobs. They want to stand out. They're using AI in lots of different ways to do that. They might be using some of the standard large language models that are out there to rewrite resumes or whatever that might be. They might be using specialist software to bulk submit jobs or whatever's going on. And I think that talent acquisition sort of looks at that as a bit of a fad or a bit of grifting or doesn't take it very seriously.

19:57But I think that's where the innovation is going to come from because they're the people who can move the fastest. And ultimately, the candidates are breaking recruiting. It's happening. It's already happening. And I think that's just going to continue. Where are we going to get to? Here's a prediction for you. We can see if I'm right. Okay, let's see where we at. We're going to get to a point where there's a huge focus on employers having agents and AI agents working in sort of various areas of the employee lifecycle. The candidates are going to have their own agents. And the candidates' agents, they'll end up talking to the employers' agents.

20:28That changes everything. It's just like, at what point do the humans talk to each other in that process? And it's going to happen. And I don't think that employers are thinking about it or they're not ready for it or they're just not even considering it. We're already seeing aspects of it in how people discover opportunity and jobs. So they're asking ChatGPT or Claude to find a job for them. They're not going to job boards or using the things that employers have sort of put in place. So I think they're setting the pace. And I think that that is what drives change. And that's what I don't think time acquisition is ready for.

21:07Yeah, it's like a full circle moment back to mental model conversation. Absolutely. Yeah. It's really pushing on all of those fundamentals of what we think actually this whole process of connecting people to jobs is all about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the implications of that are huge. Because your agent, your career agent, is effectively making decisions for you on the type of jobs that you're good for, where you can apply and all of those things. And it's like, how do you influence those decisions as an employer? So I think it's really interesting. And I think that's the direction we're going in.

21:38Fascinating. Thank you for million to will of that. So before I let you go, I know it's been a long day, but I have one last question for you. I sat here and I watched all of your conversations with all the executives across our team and you asked every single person, really interesting question. You asked them, what does it take to really lead and what does leadership look like in this new age, in this new era? Why do you ask that question? Because I was really interested in what they were going to say, because if we think about everything that's changing, the skills that are important are different.

22:12But I think also it comes back to this whole idea of uncertainty and risk and safety for teams and for employees. And although a lot of that, as a couple of people said, a lot of that, you know, good leadership doesn't change, but actually there are bits of it that amp up in this current environment. And I think embracing that and not being afraid and really making your teams realize that is so important. And I was just really interested in what people said and how they were thinking about it. Thank you, Matt. Once again, I appreciate it as always. My pleasure. Thank you. That was my conversation with Aline Bailey at Smart Recruiters.

22:52In the next episode of this series, we start with the lens closest to home for most of the audience, the people. Lehua Stonebreaker leads the people function at Smart Recruiters. And she makes an argument that genuinely made me stop and think, which is that the org chart as we know it is gone. We talk about psychological safety, fear, and what happens to organisations when the work itself starts to change. You can subscribe or follow wherever you listen to your podcasts, and I'll see you in episode two.

23:39Bye.