RetailCraft 63: "The Shoe Matrix" - in conversation with Galahad Clark of Vivobarefoot

0:03Hello there, and welcome back to the studio. We are in the Retailcraft studio today, where we're chatting with the people behind the success, looking at the ways, the means, the methods, the whys behind direct-to-consumer commerce. And today, I have a wonderful guest from a pretty amazing company. Now, I think this is a bit of black and white in that you're either already an enormous fan and can't wait to hear more, or you have a little question mark thinking, tell me about. So why don't I hand over straight away to Galahad Clarke, who is the CEO of Vivo Barefoot, to tell us in no particular order about himself and about Vivo, and then we'll just continue.

0:47Galahad, welcome to the studio. Thanks, Ian. Lovely to be here. And yeah, very happy to unpack some of the Vivo Barefoot story one step at a time. There are lots of good little shoe puns to take us on the journey today. I want best behaviour because my wife will divorce me if I keep punning, but you of course are allowed to. So tell us first off about Vivo Barefoot, because I have to admit I've been a fan of the brand for many years and so I'm pleased to see how well it's doing now. But maybe if you just give us a picture of what barefoot means in today's shoe world and a thumbnail about the brand's growth as well.

1:28Sure. It is pretty much as it reads on the tin that we bipedal humans been going around on two feet for a couple of million years now, but it was probably about 100 ,000 years ago that our common ancestors first started making barefoot shoes. So we're not in the original innovation business by any stretch of the imagination. Our ancestors were making really good barefoot shoes before we even started farming, and it was one of the first tools Homo Faber, the toolmaker, would have made, because our feet are incredibly sensory organs and parts of the body like our hands and the part of our brain that gets information from our feet is is the same size as a part of the brain that gets information from our hands so um you know a huge part of the brain is dedicated to getting information from the feet and and movement in general oh so and all that sensory information allows us to move accurately and in route three but when we figured out how to do the running hunting on the plains of the kalahari the hot bait savannah and the camel thorns obviously threatened our deeply sensitive feet and so we invented basically simple running sandals and the first sandals ever made would have been made probably from elan skin which is the largest antelope and because of our ability to sweat you know we have this incredible endurance ability as compared to other animals especially antelope they're not able to to sweat so over a period of sort of seven or eight hours we can basically run them down to exhaustion because we're able to communicate in groups and track the the obviously we can't run as fast and we don't have claws or teeth or anything like that but this combined ability of endurance athletes and intelligence to be able to track and then work together as a group is what in the end sort of brought a lot of extra meat into our diets which then in the end you know all that extra protein allowed our brains to grow and made us you know terribly ambitious and so from those early days on the kalahari you know those small groups of humans that got terribly ambitious ran out into the rest of the world up the the rift valley and in gorugora highlands and out into and wherever we went we made fantastic barefoot shoes So whether the first peoples in Europe or America, probably deer skin moccasins or bison moccasins or elk and all the way up to the Arctic, reindeer skin moccasins or buffalo moccasins in your sandals in India, fish skin on the coastal areas of British Columbia and Japan.

4:21And so barefoot shoemaking is in our common ancestry all over the world. And there were always very simple footwear that just gave basic protection from either thermal protection, either too hot or too cold, or puncture protection, whether it's climbing over mountains or thawing ground or whatever. And so, you know, we've always worn really fantastic barefoot shoes that just allow the foot to do its natural thing. And those shoes were always made person by person, foot by foot, from the local sustainable materials. They fit perfectly and allowed everything to work as nature intended. So what are the modern attributes then of barefoot shoes?

5:00Because I'm with you on the dusty savannas, you know, and they're, you know, hunting. I mean, I wouldn't have been, obviously, I'd have been writing articles about people hunting, but you get my drift. So if we track forward to today, when the technology and material science in today's shoes, obviously you can buy leather shoes that are traditional. But if you think about today's trainers, walking boots, the kind of protections we're talking about, they've gone down one route of material science, construction, expertise, which is incredible. So if we're now saying other than just it's natural, what are the attributes?

5:45If you had to put your finger or toes on it, what characterizes a natural shoe? Well, the truth is it hasn't changed that much and it is literally allowing the foot to function. The body is basically made up of three systems, your skeletal system, your muscles, ligaments and tendons system and your nervous system. And all three of those systems are more than represented in the foot. Quarter of the body's bones are in the foot, literally hundreds of muscles, ligaments and tendons and fascia all in the foot. And of course, hundreds of thousands of nerve endings. And so the definition of barefoot footwear, I would say, is just allowing those three systems to work fully.

6:31So, you know, in no particular order, the most important bone in the foot is the big toe bone. And the big toe bone is four times as thick and four times as dense as the other toes. And it's designed to be the body's pivot and anchor. Nearly all modern footwear takes the big toe and shoves it up against the other toes and sort of suspends it up in the air. So a good barefoot shoe basically allows the full functioning of the big toe to be able to push your big toe down and push off it and be in full function. The next part, the muscles, ligaments and tendons and the arch itself, for example. So the foot is designed to be able to splay and contract.

7:12The arch is designed to be able to go up and down. So they need to be wide enough to allow the foot's natural splaying and contraction to allow all the muscles, ligaments and tendons to fully function. Most normal shoes constrict the foot like a cast and hold the foot sort of in a fairly static position. So all the muscles are allowed to go dormant and get weak. And then perhaps most importantly, they need to be thin enough, thin-soled enough for the nerve endings to be able to feel the ground with every step. We normally say it's sort of less than 10 millimetres thick. So as long as a shoe is thin, is wide and flexible, you know, then it's a pretty good barefoot shoe.

7:55Some shoes kind of do the wide and flexible, but don't do the thin and vice versa. Some shoes are thin, but a little bit cramped. But you're ultimately just allowing the foot to function naturally. So those listeners who, like me, have feet that are optimized for crossing soft, boggy ground rather than being more svelte, this is coming as a great message. But let's maybe just step back and think about this from a business perspective, because we've talked about this from a natural perspective, but also from a body matching biomechanical perspective. But what you're saying, with all due respect, Galad, isn't a normal marketing message.

8:39We've spent a few minutes talking about it. It's not entirely simple. Other people aren't talking about it. So in a way, you've decided to build a business around a belief and a structure that customers may not yet share. So it goes against, if you like, all of the tenets of marketing. You're having to simultaneously educate the market and then get them to buy you. So just tell me a little bit about how you have approached this information education marketing route when there's so much, if you like, lined up against you that you have to communicate. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Obviously, the most successful shoe business in the world ever is Nike, twice the size of its nearest competitor.

9:25And Nike started off its journey in the 1960s, actually making very good barefoot shoes. and Bill Bowman, the founder of Nike, imported, along with Phil Knight, imported Japanese footwear that was very thin-soled, very flexible. And it was around the time of the American jogging boom, and people started wearing these early Nikes and reporting getting injured and being painful. So Nike at the time famously called in some doctors and said, what's going on? We're making these wonderful, lightweight, biomechanically accurate shoes, and everyone's getting injured. and the doctors explain, well, the problem is that people are still walking around in pointy-heeled work shoes every day, obviously more extreme for women, but still men.

10:10And still to this day, obviously, most men walk around in pointy-heeled work shoes on their day-to-day lives. And your sports shoes are too different from their work shoes. So you need to make your sports shoes more like their work shoes, which incidentally all come from horse riding shoes, because we made pointy shoes so we could get our feet in the stirrups and heels so they wouldn't fall out. High status to have a horse, so everyone wanted to have a pair of horse riding boots or shoes. Nike famously then made their shoes with a heel stack and cleverly put a bit of visible technology in the bottom in the form of an air bubble.

10:48Made the toes pointy, raised the toe spring, and so the shape of a Nike mimicked the shape of a work shoe. And so it became a very easy transition to go from you know similar shaped shoes basically so yeah this journey that we're on to sort of release people from the shoe matrix and it is literally kind of you know all the technology you talk about in footwear is that is there to solve problems caused by footwear themselves and it is a fantastic amount of wonderful technology and gels and foams and pads and pronation control whole industries like podiatry with inserts and insult you know have developed around it everybody making tremendous amounts of money there's more money actually in corrective foot surgery in america than there is even in the footwear business in america no so this massive industry and business around sort of non-foot shaped footwear and all the problems associated with it and then charging people to solve for problems caused by shoes themselves and so on and so forth and get stuck in something um interesting there that as well brings us back to the retailing approach which is um you know i was initially attracted to the shoes because they kind of looked cool but also you know i had wider high volume feet i was looking for something that was better for my feet especially because as you get older one of the key things you start noticing is the number of old people who fall and hurt themselves because they don't have this connection between their feet, their balance, their surroundings.

12:25And so this is another thing on our mind with aging parents. But I remember going into one of your early Covent Garden stores and there was a really big emphasis in store on, A, just try them on and trust me, they're going to feel different. And then this 100-day guarantee, along with quite a lot of training input because it's so different to run on a barefoot shoe than on the Nike and other more padded, higher rise, heel first shoes. So you've put a lot of effort, not just telling people, but backing that up with, if you like, the change needed for people's feet to get back into shape. Yeah, and we're obviously keen to make that transition as unintimidating as possible.

13:15And in some ways, it's a bit like going from eating processed food to just eating organic food. It's, you know, our bodies know how to do it. We all instinctively know how to do it. Like if you want to see a good example of natural movement, you just watch a five-year-old child running barefoot around a swimming pool and they can run all day long. They're laughing. They're taking lots of little steps running barefoot on hard surfaces. You know, they'll never get injured. that they're running as hard, you know, and that's in all of us. And so you're just turning back to some layers in a way. Yeah, if you think about kids, when you take your precious little lumps of protoplasm to have their first shoes, you're told, you know, don't put your kids' feet in shoes while the bones are still soft, let them run around.

14:04And then when they have shoes, they're always, you know, those sort of early years Clark's shoes with plenty of space for their toes and, you know, appropriate support. We put a lot of effort into that. And then if, you know, our dear listeners' kids or anything like mine, they get to eight years old and all they want are branded sneakers. And the battle then starts for, you know, you don't want dropped heels, blisters, dropped feet, et cetera, et cetera. So I'm sure that other parents in particular will see that change. So this is if we have this idea of good foot health up to the age of about two, and then things start falling apart.

14:44I mean, in my opinion, it is a massive public health scandal that the footwear industry makes footwear that literally weakens and deforms people's feet. I have met most of the big executives in most of the big shoe companies, and they all understand the science and they all say we agree with the, we get the philosophy, we agree with the science. And the science is pretty black and white that a child's foot should be allowed to develop naturally, but the consumer isn't ready. It is literally this sort of, you know, in my opinion, putting children in shoes that literally deform the foot, develop a lifetime of movement habits and pain is akin to giving them cigarettes.

15:24And it's something that the footwear industry, I think, is really guilty of sort of just turning a blind eye to and not doing the right thing when it could do. it's definitely one of the big missions we're on and to your earlier point about transition for every adult you know just the very fact of when we wake up in the morning we're barefoot we walk to the shower barefoot we walk around our house you know more or less barefoot everyone can do it there's very few medical exceptions the diabetic foot being one some other rare medical conditions of where barefoot movement is unavailable. As long as you take it slow and allow the foot to rebuild itself, it's a bit like taking your arm out of a cast.

16:08And from an early age, we put our children's feet in effectively foot casts. Which just weakens them when the cast comes off. It weakens, deforms. And the first thing you do when you take a cast off, you wouldn't go and play tennis. No, not at all. You'd have to build up the muscles. You'd build it up. And so slowly, slowly, The research shows that young people in their 20s' feet get 60 % stronger after six months of just walking around in barefoot shoes. That's not to say that barefoot shoes make your feet stronger. There's no special exercise, nothing going on. That's just young people walking around in barefoot shoes for six months.

16:48What it shows is that your average person growing up in the civilised world wearing civilised shoes has feet that are 60 % weaker than their natural base layer. It's a shocking number when you think about it. But let's maybe jump back into the retailing because so far we've been violently agreeing about the importance of good foot health. we have nearly invented the term big footwear after big farmer and big tobacco. Big shoe. Big shoe, that's it. Big shoe. So, but if I look at your stores, they seem to be getting plusher and posher. Those are very technical terms, obviously. But I can remember the first store in Covent Garden was maybe a quarter the size of your current one.

17:36I saw you had a shop in Bristol's I passed the other day. So from a retailing perspective, it's clear to me that the message is getting out and customers are buying it. You seem to be, in terms of ranges, balancing the sort of healthy movement with fitness movement with some more urban styles. So tell me about how the brand is growing and how the message is getting out. What's the sort of state and direction of travel? Well, the wonderful thing about the barefoot movement, I would say it's sort of coming in different waves, notwithstanding the first wave of antelope hunting sandals made 100 ,000 years ago.

18:19But in more recent times, around 2008, 9, 10, sort of modern barefoot shoes started getting remade. And Vibram Five Fingers came out and became a really big business in America. and there was a book called Born to Run that kind of captured people's imagination. But unfortunately, around that time, it became associated with running. And everyone thought, oh, this is a silver bullet that's going to help me run faster. And as we just discussed, the first thing you do when you start your journey back to barefoot is definitely not go running. So you walk before you run. And there was a bit of a collapse, let's say, around 2012.

18:59But since 2012, the whole category has been growing slowly but surely, very much word of mouth. Definitely no thanks to any big marketing campaign any company's done. About four years ago, there were less than 10 barefoot brands in the world. And the category was kind of quite serenely, let's say, organically growing by word of mouth. Today, we find ourselves with nearly 100 barefoot brands in the world. So it's a wonderful sort of proliferation of new barefoot shoes being made in all corners of the world, particularly in Eastern Europe, funnily enough. So with all of the growth that we're talking about, we now have the dichotomy between managing the impact of those materials, everything from the puncture-proof membranes to the materials in the shoe.

19:47So how do you manage to ensure there's not just good foot health, but good sustainable business with circularity in the footwear? Always tricky to repair and update, but you've got the Revivo as well as Vivo Biome. So could you maybe just tell us a bit about how you're baking in circularity to what can be a difficult business to make sure that everything is reused properly? But definitely the elephant in the shoe sustainability room is end of life. The world makes 24 billion pairs of shoes every year, nearly all of them with very little end of life thought behind them. And so most of them end up in landfill.

20:26So the huge prerogative is how do you make shoes that are able to be circular, that don't just go straight into landfill? And interestingly, the European Union are getting their act together and starting to pass some legislation around this. But crudely speaking, there are two solutions to this. One is making shoes from nature that can be returned to nature using natural materials, ultimately biodegradable, compostable. It's a whole can of worms, literally. Literally. You know, levels of compostability and whether you need heat or industrial conditions or genuinely chuck them in your compost at the end of the garden kind of thing.

21:03And then the other side is polycircular, so effectively making things from polymers, ideally never using virgin plastics again, and then being able to keep existing plastics in circularity. Now, the truth is, as we sit here now, there's very, very few shoes that are made that are perfectly biodegradable or perfectly polycircular by any stretch of the imagination on either side by any company. I think in fairness, a lot of companies are trying hard to figure out, especially the polycircular. Millions and millions of dollars are being invested into figuring out chemical recycling rather than using just mechanical recycling, which is nearly always downcycling.

21:48So a plastic water bottle becomes a fleece, becomes a shoe upper lining, becomes a rubbish bin, becomes some flooring or something. so yeah so very little i mean there are proof of concepts now but very little actually in the world of bringing food grade plastic back to food grade plastic but some of that is because of the non-separability of the elements so some things you can put them together but when you take them apart they can't be properly separated so if you think about something like one of your shoes then And some of the models are as if they've been sort of moulded and formed. They fit together very organically.

22:32Whereas if you had a traditional pair of leather shoes, the whole thing can be taken apart. So you've got the additional problem, not just of making the shoe well, but then making it repairable, fixable and take-apartable, decomposable, if you like, at the end of life. So there are lots of manufacturing challenges, which maybe the first owner or first buyer of the shoe won't appreciate because they'll be wanting the best performance, the best look, the best style, not in two years time, I'm so pleased you'll be able to take this apart easily. So there's sort of a conflict there between the efficient manufacturer and then planning for the taking apart, repairing and recycling.

23:14You articulated it very well. And I mean, look, it's definitely not been easy on on any of those levels and like you said just because we make the shoes repairable doesn't make them easier to sell in the beginning definitely you know arguably the opposite and so on and so forth so you know we learn a lot about how to make the shoes more repairable more circular by having a program we called revivo where we take the shoes back repair recycle refurbish resell so by doing that and we're doing over a hundred thousand pairs a year We learn a tremendous amount about how to make them more circular in the first place, as it were.

23:53We work with a wonderful company called the Boot Repair Company in Leeds. And we have a centre there where we take back a lot of the shoes and repair and refurbish. We have a centre in Amsterdam. And we're just building one in America and in Japan now. But, you know, the journey to truly circular shoemaking is one that is pretty nascent, honestly. It's interesting how much of that you're having to build. So I mean, it's great to hear that. It does show that for the industry to progress, people have to invest. It's great that you're doing that. But I also see that you are now reselling refurbished, reconditioned and repaired shoes as well.

24:34So it's not just for the first owner to extend the life, but you're bringing in vintage shoes back into the retail chain. So again, another level of complexity beyond the repair, but the restocking, the describing, the reselling. So you're doing quite a lot of heavy lifting. True. And it's a funny business model that because obviously the more you need to repair a shoe, the less you can sell it for. So it's a sort of business model that kind of the more it costs, the less you can sell it for. So that is very heavy lifting for sure. And it's just, you know, I guess it's a penance we pay to some degree to commit to these things.

25:14And like you say, in a perfect world, the industry would be much better set up to do a lot of this stuff better from the beginning. Hopefully, we can play a small part in educating the industry by pioneering some of these efforts. So our other companies like Dr. Martins, who are starting to do it alongside us, Timberland are doing it a little bit. But yeah, we're learning a lot as we go. And, you know, it's something that, like I said, the legislation is coming. So other companies will be forced to do it. So at least you're ahead of that, which is good. At least we're ahead of that, yeah. But even as you're pioneering on those fronts, you've added in a new thing now, which is Vivo Biome, which if I'm wrong my understanding is that it's a scan to print made to order made to measure and locally so you're ticking off literally everything in one go tell us a bit about that and where we can experience that as consumers so you know this takes us back to the beginning of the conversation all footwear once upon a time pre the modern industrial age was made person by person, foot by foot, made from local circular materials, perfectly repairable and nearly always biodegradable, obviously.

26:39So Vivo Biome, you know, is an attempt to almost get back to that type of shoemaking where currently nearly all the shoes in the world are made in subtractive big Asian supply chains. Our shoes too, they fill up warehouses around the world and, you know, a lot of them sadly sold at discount and treated as commodities and end up in landfill. So VivoBiome is getting back to that intimate form of shoemaking where the customer, in this case now using modern technology, scans the feet either with an offline scanner in a store or the technology is just getting there now where we can use a mobile scan.

27:19And then we bespoke make using additive manufacturing, i.e. 3D printing and there are hybrid forms of 3D printing but basically make make to order made bespoke to the customer and when you get something that's truly individually yours the emotional durability and a connection to it is is that much more feels uniquely yours you tend to look after more it frankly feels exponentially better because the variety of foot shape out there in the world is such that anybody wearing shoes just made in one shape by one company is by definition wearing shoes that don't fit them. Most people have never actually experienced shoes that truly fit them.

28:03So it's a completely new experience on that level. And then because it's a much more intimate interaction, the take-back loop is much more profound. And that's the biggest problem in circularity in the general shoe industry is the take-back loops. People are just, you know, reluctant for whatever reason to actually send shoes back. But anyway, so VivoBiome is launching on May the 4th. May the 4th be with you. May the 4th be with you. And we're launching it in select geographies around the world where we have franchise store, where we have concept stores. And yeah, you know, starting off with just a candle.

28:39Just a candle, okay. And then the idea is it will blossom from there. we have made prototypes of complete shoes and things like that but it's all coming soon that's very exciting i saw something on my instagram the other day which is for a bike a cycling shoe which is a road cycling shoe meant for people with you know larger higher volume etc etc feet which basically you're not catered for so you just suffer on your bike for a couple of hours. But this is all done with a scan your own foot app. And then it's CD printed and sent to you. So I think there's so many technologies now that are embryonic, but getting that connection between the manufacturing side, the presenting in store, the customer support.

29:27And then of course, if they want to have them repaired, recycled, or I don't know, digested in a composter somewhere, then I think having that full connection is obviously going to change the way your stores work as connection points for consumers. Absolutely and you know in the store that you know to go in and get your feet scanned and then with a foot scan we can then do health diagnostics of your foot we can recommend things to help you sort of accelerate your journey back to healthy feet. In the stores as well we have plantar pressure plates where you stand on the and that's you know The theatre of just seeing how you stand on your feet is amazing because most people, because they're used to standing on heels and used to having their toes sort of almost dismembered by their chute, when they stand on a plantar pressure plate, which is a sort of pictorial map of where the pressure is in your feet, you'll see all the weight is in the heels.

30:21looks like they don't have any toes at all and and just sort of almost coaching them back to just standing in an accurate way being able to put their toes back on the ground yeah getting their weight in the middle of their feet it's a whole new experience for them because shoes don't normal shoes big shoe doesn't allow you to do that throws you off balance you know takes your toes out of the equation and completely change it and you know if your feet aren't working then the rest of your Your body doesn't work, right? The rest of your body has to compensate for it. Every step we make, every bit of movement we make goes through our feet.

30:57And if the feet are not where they need to be, then you have to compensate in your knees and your hips and your back. And, you know, hence 50 % of people over 50 in the civilized world are in some kind of chronic pain. And it's mainly because of the shoe industry. Wow. A little bit to do with sedentary lifestyles as well. Yes, centralised style while wearing your athletic shoes. But, you know, the exciting thing about, from a retail point of view, as it were, is like there are these technologies now that can sort of bring these journeys back to life. And you can visually see all of these things that, you know, it's the same way with.

31:41Yes.

31:45how they don't or don't work more to the point is you're going through this journey of kind of unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence on your way to ultimately getting unconsciously competent again where you don't have to think about it anymore and everything's working in the natural way i think you just described the the trading approach at retail x so thank you for that. Now, Gallagher, on your way to perhaps getting the first citation in the New Year's honours list for foot health and commerce combined, let's just look ahead to the rest of the year. So new developments in store, new developments technologically, some welcome growth, even as your initial pioneering position has been validated by the market with more competitors.

32:31How is the rest of the year looking for you now? Throughout the whole of our interview, although it's audio so no one can see how much you've been smiling, you've been very perky about it. Do you think that somehow all the arguments are coming to fruition and that there's a golden light ahead? How do you see the rest of the year panning out for Vivo? Well, this is a long journey, I think, and the wider macro picture of humans trying to emancipate themselves from nature and being dazzled by technology and its guises is one that is going to go on in many shapes and forms. Like you said, big agriculture and big farmer and these industries are hell bent on disconnecting us from nature.

33:16You know, we'll also go on. Big shoe has also got some miles to run. So, you know, we have a pretty long term view on reconnecting people back to nature, starting with their feet far, far from conventional wisdom. And it won't be by the end of the year, unfortunately. So, you know, my perspective is definitely beyond the year end. But in the short term, we, you know, we're cobblers. Ultimately, we're coming out with new and better shoes. We're opening up new stores. We've got a new store opening up in New York. and we're getting ready to launch the brand in China, which is exciting. Japan has been a particularly brilliant partners in Japan who have built amazing communities and opened up three concept stores.

34:01So it's exciting to sort of bring Barefoot back to Asia because ironically, of course, understanding health through feet is a very ancient, you know, Ayurvedic and Chinese. Absolutely, yeah. You know, the funny thing here is this is not a Western brand going to Asia and you know this is just sort of coming home yeah coming home and you know and i studied actually chinese medicine at university so i think probably there's some connection to to that and my sort of sympathies to barefoot so you know with the the show goes on and in the spirit of just trying to build a business that in some ways is kind of almost anti-technology but using lots of technology to build that business and you know the big thing we're trying to do is something called my vivo which is the sort of omni-channel customer experience stitching together the 3D printing of Vivo Biome, the circularity of ReVivo, together with the main shoe business, together with educational bespoke tools and things like AI can help create very bespoke customer journeys, very micro-personalized, and then obviously connecting to your local community for events and in real life connection.

35:12So it's this sort of strange dichotomy with lots of technology ultimately used to just getting people out there, putting their feet back on the earth, reconnecting with nature, reconnecting with each other and trying to get the best out of technology to help people live these in real life, happier, healthier experiences. Great. Well, I very much hope that our listener has been listening while reconnecting their toes with the earth. And we've gone, if you like, from big shoe back to big toe. And we're all the better for that. Galhad, thank you so much for taking us on that 100 ,000 year perspective journey, which we don't normally cover on the podcast, but also connecting that, as you said, with cutting edge technology, but grounded in the customer, her feet, posture, health and community.

36:08an inspiring session and thank you so much for joining us in the studio thank you pleasure to hang out with you today and uh hope you managed to get out of the studio and put your toes in the grass at some point today and enjoy my toes my toes are currently free and i will leave our lovely listener with that mental image thank you so much galahad thank you take care