Family bonding with John & Hank Green and Julia & Jim Curtis

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1:52Hank Green: we like to get into it and get serious and talk about important things and we also like to goof and for me if the goof isn't there it's hard to vibe with a person i find it easier than you do if the goof isn't there because i'm so freaking earnest as i say about john some people are afraid to be corny but john was born on the cob that's such a bad joke don't reward that with a laugh, Adam. I'm sorry. It's so bad. It's almost funny. There's something great about born on the cob. Yeah. You love the goofs. Hey everyone. It's Adam Grant. Welcome back to Rethinking, my podcast with Ted on the science of what makes us tick.

2:32I'm an organizational psychologist and I'm taking you inside the minds of fascinating people who explore new thoughts and new ways of thinking.

2:44I just launched my new book, Vibe, The Secrets of Strong Connections in a Lonely World. To celebrate, I'm doing some special episodes with pairs whose vibe I admire. We kicked off with Olympic champion ice dancers Tessa Virtue and Scott Moyer. Today, it's a double feature with two pairs of dynamic duos who are family and collaborators. First, it's brothers Hank and John Green, who've co-created hugely successful YouTube projects together, including the educational channel Crash Course, which has over two billion views, and Vlogbrothers, where the videos they make for each other have over a billion views.

3:17Hank Green: I've had several people express surprise that I've seen all of John's Vlogbrothers videos. And this is insane to me. It's like getting a letter and not reading it. Like, you think I'm a monster? I love watching Hank's videos. Like, I feel that he has made them primarily to delight me, and he succeeds inevitably. Then it's Jim and Julia Curtis, a father-daughter duo. They're both pilots, and they recently went viral when Julia got to fly with her dad on his last flight with Southwest Airlines. This is a very special flight today. Our captain today, Jim Curtis, he's celebrating his 65th birthday.

3:50I'm really honored to be his first officer today because Captain Curtis is also my dad. The video gave us a glimpse into their amazing relationship, and I wanted to learn more, so I invited them onto the show. I knew that my dad was always going to have my back and was always going to be honest with me, whether it be good or bad. You have to let people in the other seat do what they need to do, but you're there to catch them if they're going to fall or, you know, voice them up a little bit higher, too. To kick off today's episode, let's start with John and Hank. Separately, they're best-selling authors.

4:26John's best known for his coming-of-age novel, The Fault in Our Stars, and Hank for his sci-fi novel, An Absolutely Remarkable Thing. But today, I wanted to talk to them about how they've cultivated their vibe over the years, especially because growing up, they weren't very close at all.

4:46Well, I'm excited that you were both willing to do this. Thank you. Thank you. Welcome to your show. Thanks, Hank. You know, I've never interacted with the two of you at the same time. Oh, interesting. Yeah, we have a good repartee. We've interacted with each other a bunch.

5:01Hank Green: Yeah. I was thinking I would just invite you on to vibe and watch the whole thing and see what happens. I've got questions for you. Yeah, if you don't have questions for us, I'd love to learn more about organizational psychology. Who is hosting this show? Please. Nice try. Although you're better at it and more experienced at it than I am. So I probably should just let you take over. Are we? No, we're not. I feel very new to interviewing. I really just started doing it and it is quite a skill. Well, I think for whatever it's worth, I do have a few planned questions, but I was mostly hoping we would go off the script and therefore I wrote very little of a script.

5:39Great. I'll actually start with something that I'd love to hear both of you react to, which is when you think of creating a great vibe, what comes to mind? What is a vibe to you?

5:48Hank Green: I don't know. I feel like hyper conscious of the vibe. I always want people to like me. I always want to be like non-threatening. I remember almost all my friends in high school were girls. And I'm like bigger than the average man. and I wanted very much to be seen as in no way threatening at all. And I'm like really like overconscious of how I am perceived. This is a burden. And so I kind of feel like a professional curator of the vibe to some extent. I agree with Hank. I think Hank and I both, especially when we were younger, desperately wanted to be liked by strangers, desperately wanted to be liked by everyone.

6:25And I think for me, it came from not being liked. It came from being bullied in middle school and being really unpopular, not having any friends and feeling really lonely. And I just remember thinking if I could cultivate a vibe of coolness, of friendliness, then I could be OK. So that's what I think of when I think of the vibe. But I also think of the vibe between people. Right. Like I think about the I immediately think about the vibe between Hank and me and how it's one that I count on. Like I count on the vibes being good between us because they always are. And if they ever weren't, it would be a catastrophe.

7:06Hank Green: Yeah. And it's interesting to like make friends as a 46 year old. Yeah. So like now that I have got, you know, an elementary school student living in the house, there's all these new people who are coming to my life who are the parents of my son's friends. And they have very sometimes very different worlds. And the vibe can be off. And I'm like, oh, well, Hank, you were talking about the weirdness of making friends as a 46 year old. And I was I was starting to get nervous because I just turned 45. I'm like, oh, no, next year is going to get really hard. You outline this in the book, but like it's so interesting to me.

7:43You've done such an amazing job of becoming a different of I don't know if a different person is the right word, but like a vibe cultivation that I can't recognize that kid in today's you, if that makes sense. That is a pleasant surprise Because I feel like That kid still lives in my head And tries to get out every day I'm sure I'm sure Yeah Just the bullied The bullied 7th grader Who's terrified of everything And everyone still lives in my head And is trying to get out every day too Yeah Well if only If only we'd known each other In 7th grade Life would have been easier

8:17Hank Green: Oh we could have crushed together I feel like we would have gotten along Yeah I feel like we would have played A lot of video games while sitting next to each other rather than engaging deeply. Gosh, there's so many things already that I want to pull as threads. But one thing is I have been sort of increasingly struck by the fact that talking about people as friends, colleagues, or family isn't that helpful. And it bothers me in part because I have colleagues who are friends. I have friends who feel like family. And I have family that I don't even want to interact with. And so I'm like, okay, the way that I met them is not a great determinant of the kind of connection we have.

8:57And so I've been working for the past few years on an alternate language, which sort of treats people as, well, at least treats strong connections as allies, pals, or companions. And I think of allies as people who share your goals, pals as people who share your interests, and companions as people who share your values. and I wanted to react to the goofing through that lens but John first like what are you and Hank are you allies pals companions does it go both ways are you all of the above we're a little bit all of the above but we're companions first like we share values first above everything else and hopefully are guided by those values such that we are able to be fellow travelers and colleagues and friends, but I think it's grounded in shared values.

9:48So I think we're companions first. We do have some shared interests, although we have very different interests in a lot of ways. You know, Hank is much more interested in science. I'm much more interested in history and literature and that kind of thing. And then I do think that we have an allyship as well, but I think it begins with companionship.

10:11Hank Green: You know, I use the word colleagues a lot, which is a bit of a shared economic interest, I feel like. So I talk about other YouTubers often as colleagues because this is the nicest word I can come up with for talking about them. Yeah. Because I'm like, I get it. Like, you and I share problems with the systems of, you know, Internet content. We share beefs with YouTube. We share struggles with audience and struggles with getting our content to be selected by an algorithm. But like, boy, do I not see these people as shared values oftentimes. So this is interesting because in part, I think that you can have these like shared, you can kind of have these things with people you don't even really like.

10:57But I do think there's an element of almost forced allyship between YouTubers, right? You have this common enemy, which is the algorithm. And to your point, even if you don't like them, you're kind of in the same boat against it.

11:10Hank Green: Mm-hmm. I have found it helpful to sort my relationships into these categories as well, because the places where I have a shared interest and the places where I have shared values are very different. and I find that I am most deeply drawn to that sense of companionship, that sense of like fellow traveling down a road of certain values. What we're gonna worship essentially. Are we gonna worship money? Are we gonna worship celebrity? Are we gonna worship power? Like what are we gonna follow down toward? Do you think you get to choose those things, John? Yes, I do. And I know that you don't, but I think you're wrong.

11:54Hank Green: I do. I do. I do. And I think that choosing them is hard. Well, you have to be very intentional about choosing it because there is a default form of worship, right? Which is like you fly to the light of power and you're like a moth and you don't know why, but you're flying to the light. Like I met with a senator once and I was like, oh, this guy is literally just flying to the light of power. Like he is just doing what will ensure that he can keep power at all costs because he likes having it and he doesn't want to lose it. And it's that simple. Yep. So one of the things that I may be over inferring, but that I was intrigued by that just bubbled up from the two of you is we all need allies, pals and companions in our lives.

12:36And some of us are lucky to have people who check all those boxes. I would say I know a fair number of authors and also creators who are kind of annoyed that you both won the sibling lottery. You just lucked into a sibling who is your perfect ready-made ally, pal, and companion for any project you could want to do, any interest you might have, any emotional challenge you might run into. And I'm a little skeptical of that assumption. And I would like to believe that this did not just happen automatically. You've actually had to work to build your vibe on each of these wavelengths. And I would love to know if I'm right or wrong.

13:13Hank Green: I think that we have worked to build it, but I think that we've worked to build it in part because we sort of saw it as an unassailed good. Like, I don't really question that John has my best interest at heart ever. That's such a valuable thing to have in a collaborator. Right. Never, never, never have I felt that way. Never have I felt that he was jealous of a success that I have. Never have I been jealous of a success that he had. It's always felt like we've been sharing these things. And like in part, I think that we're really lucky that we don't strive for the exact same kind of success. Like if we were both like young adult novelists at the same time at that period of our lives and like we both published our first young adult novel at the same time and one of them was looking for Alaska and one of them was like whatever crap I would have written, then like that would have been really hard for me.

14:03Hank Green: But we've always sort of been going for different successes. And so, like, deep down at the bottom of it, it's always felt like the brotherhood was the most important thing to protect of the things that we were doing. And if, like, we messed that up, then none of it would have been worth it. I think that's the key insight is that we have had to work on it, but we've worked on it from the perspective of, like, our brotherhood is more important than any of our work, is more important than any of our collaborations. we don't maintain our relationship so that we can collaborate. We collaborate so that we can maintain our relationship.

14:40Hank Green: That's how it started, yeah. For us, you know, finding shared projects is an important part of how we stay close. Like Hank and I weren't very close. I went to boarding school when Hank was 11. So I didn't know Hank as an adolescent or an adult. And we weren't that close until we started making YouTube videos together on Vlogbrothers. And it's really only since then, which is the last 20 years of our lives, that we've been so close. And I think partly because we weren't always close, it has always felt very worth it to do the work of being close because we see how rich and meaningful and giving it is in our lives to have that relationship.

15:18Okay. So I love how, Hank, you were just kind of casually anticipating the self-evaluation maintenance theory of relationships, which says that if you're both pursuing the exact same goal at the exact same time, then you're more likely to envy each other in ways that might be a little bit uncomfortable. And I think in particular, the fact that you weren't comparing yourselves to each other. You know, Hank, you're not aspiring to be a YA novelist per se. John, you're not aspiring to be a science communicator or a sci-fi writer. It seems like that created healthy complementarity for you, where you didn't have to compete as much.

15:58Yeah, although even when we have been in somewhat direct competition, like I make a YouTube video every Tuesday, Hank makes one every Friday on the same YouTube channel. We have the same number of subscribers. It would be easy to compete on who gets more views. I have no idea who has more lifetime views. I have no idea who gets more views. that I don't want to know either. And so even when we are competitive or like could be competitive, we just choose not to frame it that way. We choose not to frame it as like, who is the better brother or who is the favorite brother on the internet or whatever.

16:30Instead, we frame it around how are we doing as a unit? Yeah, it's so interesting

16:36Hank Green: because I don't like, it's not that I don't want to know. It's that it's never occurred to me to check. No, I mean, I don't want to know, but it also has never occurred to me to check. Right, like it wouldn't mean anything to me. You know, it wouldn't be like, ah, that makes sense. After all this time, of course. Right. Because, like, in part, it's like who made the giraffe sex video in 2012. Yeah, we've got a couple of videos that have, like, you know, like, most people who are showing up to watch the giraffe sex video, in which we discuss the, like... Mating habits of a giraffe. What they thought they were going to get was just a video of giraffes having sex.

17:09Hank Green: And so most of them didn't watch the video anyway. Yeah. They just clicked on it and got a video. Instead, they got kind of a science lesson in giraffe mating. Yeah. Wasn't as exciting as they thought. They were click baited, Hank. We click baited them. We did. We did. Okay. I'm going to try not to invoke that image during the conversation. Poor Adam is trying to keep this on the rails, and it's not easy. We can tell you about giraffe sex. Well, I mean, there are questions about how giraffes vibe that could be brought into the conversation, but I don't want to go there. Oh, man, you don't want to do that.

17:44It's way more intense than you'd think. It's way worse than you think. Maybe it's because the mating habits of the giraffe are profoundly fascinating. For instance, did you know, and by the way, this is all going to be disturbing, when boy giraffes want to have babies with girl giraffes, the first thing that they do is use their heads to nudge the girl giraffes in their lady parts. They do this, and by the way, Hank, you may want to put a bucket nearby, because it causes the girl giraffes... I'm adding it to the list of things I did not know I didn't want to know. Okay, check. Okay, another complementarity that I think is interesting that I think both of you alluded to, it sounds to me like, Hank, it's more important for you to connect with people on a PAL wavelength, the goofiness you described.

18:26And John, it's more critical for you to have the companionship, the sense of care and affection. True or false? I mean, it's 100 % true for me. I think it's true for Hank as well. I'm interested to see Hank's response, but I would much prefer to have similar values with someone than have, you know, a shared interest in AFC Wimbledon or whatever.

18:46Hank Green: I think that shared values are important, but yeah, I mean, like the way that you said it, I was like 100%, yeah, I want to have a good time. I want to like be enjoying this time that I'm spending with people. You know, I'd rather do karaoke than go to a lecture, you know? Oh, I mean, the exact opposite. I would rather go to all lectures for the rest of all. I would rather, I'd rather be in an eternity of lectures than go to karaoke once. I mean, every time I've ever done karaoke, I've thought to myself, except for once, I've thought to myself, I'm not drunk enough for this. And then one time I thought, I am exactly drunk enough for this.

19:25Hank Green: Johnny, do you want to know the worst? You're going to cringe so hard at this story. I went to karaoke recently and the karaoke machine was broken. Oh God. And the guy who was running the karaoke was a friend of mine. And he's like tech supporting himself. And he was like, I don't know what to do in this situation. And he's like, you know, the mic's up here if anybody wants it. And so I went up and I sang Smash Mouth's All-Star. Acapella? To no backing track. Oh, just an acapella all-star. Uh-huh. The whole thing. I would have to be in an altered state of profound, profound degree in order to do that.

20:04And I know that. I mean, I know the song. It's not that I don't know the song. I know it well. I think it's in my range. I just I would never do that.

20:10Hank Green: Oh, that is that is a great thing about Smash Mouth is they're not doing it. It's in everybody's range. Vocally difficult.

20:18So this is leading me to, I guess, a curiosity. I mean, we've already established something that I failed to capture in the book, which is we have different preferences for what wavelengths we want to connect with people on. And I actually think my go-to wavelength is to be allies with people. I want to know, how can I help you solve a problem? I want to figure out what goals do we share and how can we accomplish them together or at least elevate each other's ability to succeed. And then, yeah, I'd love to have some fun and maybe a little bit of emotional support along the way, but that's optional.

20:52So we are seeking three different kinds of connection by default, the three of us. Yeah. Right. But the three of us combined are an incredible person. Oh, come on. No, I'm just kidding. I think that's really interesting. We might be a whole person combined. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. One whole person. I see that so much in you, Adam, that the way you want to connect with people is by helping them solve problems and by asking for help when you need it. And it's so interesting to be able to construct it that way, because not having had that structure or that language before, I could never have seen that before.

21:27You give new meanings to existing words a lot of times in a way that allows you to frame something that you maybe didn't have form for before. Like, the interesting thing about language to me is, without it, we can't necessarily have form for some of the stuff that we go through. And so giving something like that language is very powerful.

21:48Hank Green: Yeah. Yeah. It's almost like it opens up exploration space. So there's like somebody needs to like bushwhack through the first layer of brambles in order for those conversations to even happen. Yeah. And then once you're in there, it's like, oh, look at all of this introspection or exploration we can do here now that we have found this new spot. And language does that. And if we don't have the language for things, it can be harder to get into them. Well, this is going to actually solve a dilemma for me. The next time somebody asks me, what the hell is an organizational psychologist? I'm just going to say, I'm really just a weed whacker.

22:23Yeah. I can do words for things that you've experienced. Sort of a linguistic weed whacker. Yeah. Yeah. Don, you know, it's funny because you're making me rethink something that I felt pretty strongly about for really the past few years, which is the best connections happen when we're on the same wavelength. And so Hank, you and I would hit it off if we both wanted to be pals. And, you know, we discovered we wanted to geek out on the same kind of science. John, you and I would click if, you know, we both wanted to be companions and we called each other up in dark moments. But it's kind of interesting to me thinking about how strong your vibe is that, you know, Hank is looking for more of a pal.

23:05John is looking for more of a companion. Is that a kind of complementarity that each of you provides something different in the relationship.

23:12Hank Green: Yeah. I mean, John is an amazing companion. Like, and it's not like I don't need one sometimes. And Hank, in turn, is an amazing pal. And it's not like I don't need one sometimes. You know, I was just saying that, like, I've seen you, Adam, connect with people through wanting to help them through something, shared goals, solving problems, et cetera. It's something I've really admired about you. It's something I really think is cool that I would like to bring more of to my own life. So I think the part of it that's maybe complimentary is the part that's, that thinks like, oh, that's not a sort of natural strength or point of connection for me, but it would be cool if it were, it would be cool if I could develop that.

23:50Well, thank you. I appreciate that. And, you know, I have the same reaction in reverse, which is I, I watch, John, the way that you, I think more than anything else, you describe things that people think are idiosyncratic or kind of unique to them and you make them universal, but you do it through showing vulnerability that only somebody who understands what companionship is like to give and receive would do. And I think that that's a skill and it's something I normally shy away from and think, I don't want to be part of that. It could be too heavy. It might be too personal. Let's try to do something more productive or keep it a little lighter.

24:32And I've realized I have underinvested in saying, no, some of these things are really hard and that doesn't mean we can't talk about them. Right. As the great Mr. Rogers put it, anything mentionable is manageable. I like that I like that better than the standard psychologist refrain name it to tame it oh that's pretty good you can't always tame it but you can manage it name it to tame it feels very like a little too easy I can name all kinds of things that ain't tame

25:06Hank Green: a little too organizational psychologist guilty as charged Okay, another dynamic that I have to ask you about. So one of my favorite organizational psychologists, Amy Razoneski, told me once that a recipe for a great marriage is both people believing that they got the better deal. Each person thinking, I'm the lucky one. Yeah. And I think that's true in all kinds of relationships. And I think you both feel that way about your relationship. Yeah. It's funny because, like, you can see it purely through the lens of, like, the one that's writing the tale of the other one's comet, as John and I have put it at various times in our careers.

25:51Hank Green: So, like, certainly for a long time I was writing the tale of it. Because, of course, like, John had the number one selling book in America for a solid couple years or something like that, especially if you don't count Harry Potter. Even if you do, not to brag.

26:10Sorry, didn't mean to interrupt you there. Just quick fact check.

26:15Hank Green: And I appreciate that. I love a real time fact check. And so like, it was weird to be like the guy who had a YouTube channel with John Green. But like, we never really thought of it that way. I remember I was on the streets of Philadelphia coming home from a drugstore after an event. And I just heard someone from across the street go, Hank Green! And I was like, yes, hello, it is I. And so I feel like even in that time, I was the tail to your comet. I think it's essential for us to be able to see it that way, to view each other as the lucky one. I mean, I definitely think I'm the lucky one, so much so that it's hard for me to imagine that you think that you're the lucky one.

27:02Yeah, so yeah, I think that's true. I think you're both very lucky. I don't think that Catherine thinks that she's the lucky one.

27:12Hank Green: I don't think Sarah thinks that. It's funny, like when you said that's the recipe for a good marriage, like a cold shiver went through my body. I was like, we're only 22 years in. Like what's coming for me? Because there's no way. If Sarah thinks she's the lucky one, she's bonkers.

27:30That was a conjecture, not a statement of fact. Just to be clear. Okay, okay. Good, good, good. It's a recipe for a great marriage, not the recipe. Yeah. There you go. Many paths. Many paths. I think there's also a different path, which is one person feels so lucky that they're always trying to be worthy of the other. Yeah. Yeah.

27:51Hank Green: I don't think that we have that dynamic. That would make me a better spouse, probably.

27:59um so i'm curious i want to go back to this this comment that you made a little while ago about how did you put it you said you never questioned that you had each other's best interests at heart and you collaborated to build the relationship you didn't build the relationship to collaborate how did you get to that place and what i really want to know is there are a lot of siblings out there who don't have that kind of vibe? What can they learn from your dynamic?

28:27Hank Green: God, I just think we got lucky. I don't know. I think a lot of it is luck, honestly, but I think some of it is having a shared project. A lot of times, you know, there's a great Donald Hall essay where he writes about third things in marriages, how like most of a marriage is not staring into the eyes of the other person. Most of the marriage is that you're, you have joint attention around a third thing. The third thing is often children. It can be the orchestra. It can be the Sunday New York Times crossword puzzle. It can be whatever. But third things are essential. Huh? Birds. Birds. Birds is a huge one.

29:01Yeah, it's so often birds. It's so often birds. I don't know why. But I got a linguistic weed whacker for that. Those are called boundary objects. Boundary objects. What's the boundary mean? I don't know. There's a classic paper by Lee Starr on them. And the idea is, I think that it's something that you both pay shared attention to and then react to together. But I don't know why they're called that. I need to find that out now. At any rate, these boundary objects are really essential to marriages. And they're also good for, I think, other relationships. And a lot of times that's aging parents for siblings, right?

29:42Yeah. Okay, I just remembered to that point why they're called boundary objects. Great. Because there's a boundary between people, and you put an object there and it becomes a bridge so you can cross the boundary together. Yeah, exactly. Those boundary objects, I'm really embracing this language, are super important for us. And so Vlogbrothers, like having a place, having a thing that we do together every week for the last 20 years has been really important to our relationship. This episode is brought to you by Planet Visionaries, a podcast in partnership with the Rolex Perpetual Planet Initiative.

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32:21So I want to hear a little bit about the lesser known rituals that keep your brotherhood strong. I'm just thinking about all of the inside jokes, the secret languages that close siblings develop. Do you have rituals for how to have a difficult conversation or give each other feedback or have conflict? When it comes to things like having a difficult conversation, we don't really have any rituals around it. We don't have a lot of conflict or we diffuse it very easily and very quickly. and we diffuse it primarily by believing the other person when they tell you how they feel and like there were times when our allyship wasn't perfect you know like where i wanted something from my career that hank didn't want especially like we used to own vidcon this big uh youtube conference it was a huge conference and it was extremely stressful for me to own still is yeah because i was like at any moment something terrible could happen at this conference and it will be my fault.

33:22Yeah.

33:23Hank Green: People would say things like, well, what's the worst thing that could happen? And the worst thing that could happen was terrible. Yeah. Very bad. Like I'm responsible for security at an event with tens of thousands of people. Imagine what's the worst thing that could happen. All kinds of horrible things could happen. People could die. Yeah. Yes. So this was always on my mind, weighed very heavily on my mind, weighed less heavily on Hank's mind. Hank's mind generally things weigh less heavily, which is a not everything. It's a mixed blessing. But it's a mixed blessing. Yes, exactly. It's a complicated blessing.

33:54It's good to be reckless sometimes. Sometimes. But I remember like for years before we sold VidCon, I wanted to sell VidCon. And there was a little bit of lack of allyship there where like we were just misaligned on what we wanted out of that experience of owning this conference.

34:13Hank Green: Yeah, I mean, the VidCon thing was so interesting because the way that John communicated his strong disinterest in continuing to own VidCon was, one, he told me that and he explained it. And then every two or three months, he would say, this would be a lot easier if we just had money instead of a conference. Somebody would give us a bunch of money to solve our biggest problem. We would win twice. In addition to not owning VidCon, we would have money. And like, but the reason why we didn't then sell VidCon, even though John was an owner and he was involved in it, is because like it was primarily my work.

34:54Hank Green: Yeah. And so, you know, when we have these conflicts, the question becomes like, OK, who wins? Whose thing is it? And the answer to that question is whose thing is it? Unless it's Vlogbrothers, in which case it's our thing equally. It's 100 percent our thing. And so in that situation, the answer to that question is which decision would be best for the audience, for the community, for this project? And, you know, you can disagree about that. But, like, ultimately, the less risky choices tend to be the right choice in that situation. Well, you can disagree about it, but you're not disagreeing about what you want.

35:31You're disagreeing about how to get there. So you're not disagreeing about, well, the goal is to do what's best for the community, for the viewership, for all that stuff. And so if you're grounded in that, if you're grounded in that shared value, the disagreements actually don't feel that high stakes because you're not fighting over values. You're not fighting over, you know, whether or not this is going to be more important or that's going to be more important. You agree about that. Do you, I'm just wondering about the portability of this 20-year Vlogbrothers project. Would you recommend that siblings should do it even if they don't have an audience?

36:08100%. Yeah, I mean... Okay, and tell me what that would look like. Yeah, it doesn't have to be this thing. It can be a podcast. It can be, you know, you do the rough cut of the woodworking and I do the fine work. It can be anything. but I do think that having a shared creative project, you know, whether it's an exquisite corpse painting or a podcast is hugely valuable in a relationship. It gives you a site of joint enrapture. It gives you something to care about together. It also allows you to root for the other person, like to enjoy the other person's work and appreciate their work. If everybody stopped watching Vlogbrothers tomorrow, Hank and I would stop making Vlogbrothers, but we wouldn't stop doing stuff together.

36:53Yeah, for sure. Oh, I love that. It's been such a pleasure and a privilege to have you on. I cannot think of a vibe that I enjoy more or that the world can learn more from than yours. And I still want it, but I think the next best thing is to be a third party to it and get to observe it and soak it up a little bit. Oh, thank you, Adam. It's been a pleasure.

37:19I love the point that sibling bonds can benefit from shared projects. The same is true for parent-child bonds, even in adulthood. I couldn't wait to ask our next pair about that. And John and Hank had some questions for them too. So stick around for my conversation with father-daughter pilot duo, Jim and Julia Curtis, coming up after the break.

37:44This episode is sponsored by LinkedIn. Hiring for a small business is hard, and you don't often have a team of people weighing in and helping out. That's why LinkedIn built HiringPro. It truly is like having a hiring partner throughout the hiring process. HiringPro listens, adjusts, and surfaces the people who actually fit what you need. Hiring by yourself can feel like guesswork. There's no one else in the room to catch what you might be missing. That's why having a partner to go back and forth with, one that learns what you're looking for over time, makes such a difference. In fact, LinkedIn found that its users are 24 % less likely to need to reopen a role within 12 months compared to the leading competitor.

38:22You can be confident in your hiring decisions when you use LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Get started by posting your job for free at linkedin.com slash rethinking. Terms and conditions apply. This episode is sponsored by Scribd, the knowledge platform home to more than 350 million documents shared by real people. We're often encouraged to think differently. And sometimes thinking differently starts with seeing how someone else thinks. When you're working through a difficult question or trying to understand a complicated subject, you don't necessarily have to begin with a blank page. You can start by exploring what others have researched, written, and figured out, then take those ideas somewhere new.

38:58Whatever you're working on, Scribd is where you go to find information, build understanding, and get it done. And if you're a student or educator in the U.S., a valid school email address gets you a discounted subscription plan. Head to Scribd.com to claim yours. That's S-C-R-I-B-D.com. Must be 18 or over.

39:31Hank Green: Brandon and Bruno, the business owners of SandCloud, reinvested their 2 % cash back to help build the company's retail presence. Capital One, what's in your wallet? Find out more at CapitalOne.com slash SparkCashPlus. Terms apply.

39:49So to introduce our pilots, we have now retired Captain Jim Curtis and First Officer Julia Curtis. Julia and Jim, thank you for joining me. It's such a joy to get to talk to you after I've seen you everywhere on the internet. It was a surprise to us what happened on the internet. And thanks for having us too. I mean, you're even sharing headphones. One earphone each. There's no clearer sign of a bond than that. That's a bond. Yeah. Two people who don't love each other will not share headphones ever. Especially when they were in my ears before this. We're using bleach. I guess I would love to start with the story of your Finney flight.

40:33I know from being around pilots a little bit, I know Finney flights are a very big deal. I would love to find out kind of the backstory for how this one happened. I was chief pilot at Southwest and I always try to convince people to have a Finney flight because it's not just for you, it's for your family too and your friends because you can invite people on board. So we get to set it up and get to fly with the first officer of our choosing. So I decided to do my Finney flight with Julia. And we show up to the airplane like we normally do. The whole family's there. We board the flight. I set up everything in the flight deck.

41:09We do our walk-arounds. We do our normal checklist and our briefings. And then we get out to tell the passengers weather, ride reports, let them know what's going on. And so in that moment, I told them what was going on this day, why this flight was so special to us, and the whole lowdown of my dad, his aviation career, and what the flight was for the day, which was his Finney flight, his last flight as Southwest Airlines pilot. That was the last time that I was on the 737. Julia, did you know this was coming? Yeah, I mean, obviously I know his age. And when I started flying, that was the goal to be able to fly with him and be able to do this flight with him.

41:51I think the importance of a Finney flight, too, is you're kind of just like closing out a chapter of your life with the people you want to have around for that moment. And it was really touch and go being that I was retiring at age 65. Julia had just gotten hired in February. So a lot had to go and be put in place for that to happen. First of all, she had to perform well in training. If she didn't perform well in training, they could keep her back. And we knew the window was gonna be tight. We knew it was about a month. Just so happens, Julia did great in training and she got out. So I did get to fly the whole month of May with her, which was, it was a blast.

42:30Wow. Oh, I love that. Hold one second. Asia, I'm hearing a little, like a thumping noise in the background. I just wanna make sure. That's me. Oh, it's a tapping. Yeah. All right. We got somebody who talks with his hands and it may be Jim. It's me. He's on the radios when I'm flying with him, talking with his hands. I'm like, no one can see your hands. Why are you doing that?

42:54You would probably know that habit better than anybody who's flown with. Yeah. There was a lot of back and forth between us. I can only imagine. So tell me, I'd love to hear from each of you. What was it like to fly together, father-daughter, for that month? Well, I'll start off with me. I actually, we had a conversation because there is the father-daughter relationship, but then there's also the captain-first officer relationship. And so if I was going to critique her or give her advice, I knew that was, I wanted her to know it was coming more from the captain than it was from the first officer.

43:32but I also, like any first officer, they make mistakes as does a captain and I have to rely on her. So if I'm making mistakes, so I also had to let her know, hey, if I'm doing something wrong, I'm not trying to trick you. You may not know this, but dad does make a mistake every now and then. Doesn't happen often. So she had to be comfortable for that month to step in and say, hey, you're 10 knots slow. And I had to take that critique from my daughter and adjust. So to me, it was awesome. It was a great dynamic. Yeah, for me, I think I've always, since I was born, seen him as a pilot. So like walking into the flight deck and him being in the left seat, it wasn't weird to see him there.

44:16I think that I was more nervous because I was like, I, you know, my dad has high expectations for me. And so I wanted to perform really well to show him I'm here. I'm not just your daughter. I'm an FO at this company and I could do the job. So I was more nervous. I think, than I would be with like a normal captain. But then once we got flying, it was like, okay, this is just a normal flight. We work together really well. We have fun. We're serious when we need to be serious. So it wasn't weird to see him in that seat. But I think once I sat there, I was like, oh, we're here now. We're doing this.

44:50So. Was it easier or harder to point out a mistake that he made than it would be, or than it was when you're flying with a captain who's not your dad? It was so much easier to point out his mistakes. I love doing it. Also, I think when you're flying with someone else, you don't really know their personality or how they might take criticism. So you have to word things the right way. I know my dad, I know he's not sensitive. And so I'd be like, hey, you know, have you ever thought about this? Like when he would make a mistake, but he didn't make too many mistakes. So I would be nitpicky with him just to find them.

45:27And it was actually a good dynamic because the younger FOs, they just know the technical aspect using our electronic flight bag. Like she was showing me on things like, Dad, do you know you can do this? So I was learning from her too about the technology that I really wasn't up to date on. So that was a great thing to see her showing me as I'm also showing her how to fly the airplane. So it was a nice dynamic back and forth. I love the reverse mentoring that's happening there. Yeah, you have to have a thick skin when you fly airplanes. Because we all make mistakes, and the person who doesn't want to admit they make mistakes, that's the dangerous person.

46:08I could not agree with that more strongly. One of the thoughts that immediately jumped into my mind as I watched your video and read a little bit more about your story was, I watched the way that the two of you interacted, and well, I feel it now too. but I remember very vividly when I first saw your video thinking that's the kind of relationship that I want to have with my daughters and I think it hit me personally at a meaningful time because we just sent our oldest to college earlier this month and oh no don't leave us I'm thrilled for you, I'm proud of you but also you are officially an adult now and it's gotten me thinking a lot about what does a great vibe look like between a father and a daughter.

46:55And I just, I felt like I could see it written all over your faces. Julia, it was so clear how much you admire your dad and what a great person he's been in your life. Jim, clearly you were just beaming with pride that your daughter was first officer and had followed in your footsteps. And so I just looked at this as an unusually strong father-daughter bond. And I want to know, how did you build it? First of all, I wouldn't say it just was me. It was my wife too. We had three kids and we were strict on them. Strict in that we set pretty high expectations, knowing that they wouldn't reach them all, but we did that.

47:32So I think at a young age, we started letting them know that they can achieve what they want to achieve. And, you know, we were always there. My wife and I used to laugh because when people said, hey, you have really nice kids, we'd say, yeah, we learned when they turned about 12, we should stop parenting them. because the more we parent them, the more we screw them up. And we let them stop making decisions for themselves. And they always made good decisions. And then I also said, you also want to be happy in life, right? It's okay to pivot. A lot of kids go to schools now and they feel like if they change their major or if they change their school, it's the worst thing.

48:08And it's not. It's okay to pivot in life. And if you're happy, you will do well and probably make money at it if you're happy. And so I think all three of my kids, I think all their careers, they're right now in positions where they're going to be happy doing what they're set up to do for the rest of their life. For me, I think there were two things that my dad would always say to me growing up that I always remember. And no matter what I was doing, he would say, put effort in. Whether it was a sport, a test, a instrument, he said, I'm only going to get mad at you if you don't put effort in. and the other thing he would say is that there's consequences for everything so if you want to do something just know there'll be a consequence if it's the wrong choice he was hard on me in sports and I remember him saying to me one time I thought he was being too hard on me and I was like you're being too hard on me and at that time I wanted to play college soccer he said if you don't want to play college soccer let me know and I'll tone it down and that's fine with me if that's not your goal, but I'm pushing you right now because I want you to accomplish your goals.

49:17And so I think when I was younger, I didn't understand, but as I got older, he kind of explained to me, hey, this is why I'm hard on you. You know, I want you to achieve your goals. And if you have different goals, voice those to me and we'll pivot. And I think that has always stuck with me that, you know, he pushed me in the right ways. He didn't push me to do something I didn't want to do. And I just had to communicate that with him. He challenged you because he cared. Yes, exactly. And And when you're young, it's a little bit frustrating because you don't understand. But when you're older, you realize that in general, people are tougher on you because they care.

49:52And if someone doesn't give you an honest answer or a real criticism, they might not care. And so it gave me perspective once I got a little older and could, I guess, realize that that's why he was doing it. It is interesting. I think a lot of people overlook the point you're making that when someone takes the time to give you constructive criticism, it is a gesture of care. It's not always easy. It's not always comfortable. We wouldn't bother to do it unless it mattered, unless we care about the relationship, unless we care about the other person. And I think, well, I have to ask because you left us hanging, Julia.

50:29So where did soccer end up? Did you play in college? Yeah, I ended up playing at UC Berkeley and graduating from Berkeley and started flying my senior year, but I did end up playing in college. Congratulations, belatedly. Go Bears. I can't say that. I'm a Wolverine, but I like it. So one thing I've been thinking about a lot as I study how people build bonds is I become mildly obsessed with the rituals and routines that families create. to nurture a bond. And I've been thinking a lot about family traditions. I would love to hear about some of the family traditions that are most distinctive to the Curtis family that really brought you close together, maybe even some that you maintain to this day.

51:16You know, I could think of something that really bonded us growing up. My dad being a pilot, we all got to fly standby for other airlines. And so when sports were slowing down a little bit, We'd take time each year to go visit somewhere. And my dad refused to book flights because he was like, we could go for free. So why am I going to book flights? And so he would say, pack for a warm vacation. We'll go somewhere warm. And so we'd show up to the airport. We might miss like five or six flights before we got on one. And so the five of us, we'd be stuck together. And, you know, we were in close spaces.

51:58Traveling is stressful. We had no idea where we were going. And us five just had to figure it out. We'd argue it out. And so I think we learned how to fight and learned how to deal with each other. And then we knew when we got there, we'd have a great time. So I think that bonded us growing up. That's such a great family tradition. And what I love about that tradition, I'm just trying to break down as a psychologist, the elements that I think make it so powerful. So tell me if this is accurate or not. I hear a few things in it. One is you're really challenged to adapt together and to sort of figure it out together.

52:30And that's a force for bonding. I think two, the element of surprise is something you share. And so you have that moment of delight of, we don't know where we're going. And now we get the joy, the excitement, the thrill kind of all at once as a group. And then three, I think it lends itself to different people stepping up and sort of taking ownership over, well, what are we going to do this time? It's not always the same parent planning the trip or dictating the vacation. And as different people get a say, you end up having different kinds of experiences together. I'm just thinking out loud, but break down for me.

53:07Why was that bonding for you? Yeah, I think you're exactly right. I think that on top of the excitement of getting to go and explore a new place together, which I think is bonding in itself, we had to learn how to deal with each other when we were tired, when we were hungry, when we didn't have a plan. And I think that learning how to deal with those emotions and still be civilized with siblings, I think that helped us bond. Jim, what do you think? I think the same thing. We literally took them over to the airport and we said, okay, hey, our plan is to get to Tahiti. If we don't get to Tahiti, we'll go down to Mexico.

53:46And then we ran into some of my wife's friends and they said, hey, if you really get stuck, come to Utah. So we are all over the map. We've headed to Disneyland. And after three days, we had enough. I'm like, you guys wanna go to Massachusetts? It's my friend's birthday party. And they're like, yeah, let's go. So we picked up, packed up, headed off to Massachusetts. So we just like to travel like that. And I think if you're having a great time, you can stay. And if you're not having a great time, you can pack up. But it does take that mentality to do that. I think that for some of us, I think we all had a lot of growth doing that travel.

54:21But now my sister does refuse to fly standby. She will be buying a ticket. So I think there's different effects for all of us, but we definitely bonded. Understandable. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I'm also thinking about just the intensity of that experience together. right? That you're going to scramble to figure it out. You probably ran through more airports than the average family. And everything has to fit in a bag this big, because we're not going to check a bag. Yeah. It's got to be a carry on. Yeah. That makes sense. Love it. Okay. So I want to, I want to talk a little bit about the evolution of your, your relationship.

55:00So Julia, when did you decide you wanted to be a pilot and what role did your dad play in that? Since I was little, I always had the idea in my head. He took me in the simulator at Travis Air Force Base when I was really little, and I thought it was the coolest experience. And I had never heard him a day in my life complain about work. So I was like, his job must be pretty good. But he was always like, go get your degree, go play soccer, and then you'll figure it out. And so at the end of my senior year was when I took my first flight, which is called a discovery flight. But it was funny because he didn't want to be involved again because he wanted it to be my path and he didn't want me to do it because of him.

55:39So he set me up with other mentors who guided me through the beginning stages of flying. And then I think once I was hooked, he kind of took a little bit more of that role. But just seeing how happy he was and seeing how much he was around and how much he loved his job made me always want to do it. Wow. And I look at it. So I talked about my father earlier. And I think one of his best attributes is when I was thinking about going into the military, we were not a military family. He would always give me 10 reasons why I should do it, 10 reasons why I shouldn't do it. And then he would say, Jim, it's your life.

56:18You have to make that decision. So when people said, boy, are you going to push it? Do you love it? I always said, you know what? I'm happy if she's happy. That's what I really want is for her to be happy. But it has to be a decision she makes. Yeah. I mean, I would love for more people both to have that experience, but also to have that attitude. All the helicopter parents listening right now, what you really want to do is you want to be a pilot parent like Jim. Not a helicopter. That's a good one. I couldn't resist. I'm sorry. The dad jokes flow freely, but I think, you know, the, just the respecting autonomy, right?

56:56I think that is, it's interesting, Jim, to hear your philosophy as a captain is very similar to your philosophy as a father. I think it is. Okay. So I want to give you a little bit of language to, to work with here that may or may not land with you. No pun intended. We may not reach lift off with these terms, but here we go. As I've been studying different kinds of relationships, I found that there are basically three different kinds of people in our lives, and I've come to call them allies, pals, and companions. And so I think one of the problems that a lot of people run into in families is you're supposed to be companions, right?

57:31You're supposed to care deeply about each other and share all these values in common, but you don't necessarily like each other, and so you have a hard time having fun and being pals, and you don't have a project to do together. And so there's no sense of allyship of, we're trying to accomplish something together. And I thought this was one of the other really interesting things about your relationship is, I felt very strong, both companion and pal vibes from you. I felt it throughout this conversation. You clearly have a lot of emotional connection. You clearly like goofing around together, but then you added this ally element of, we're going to be in a cockpit together and we're going to fly a plane together for a month.

58:12I would love to hear a little bit about how did that change your relationship? What was it like to add the ally dimension to what might be pals and companions? Did I get all of that wrong? Give me your view of everything I just tried to make sense of. I think that our relationship kind of started as that because when my dad would tell me something, he'd say, I'm not your friend, I'm your dad. And once you get older, I could be your friend. And so I don't think we had that companion relationship. I think we grew into it. And so I think we always had that, I think you said the ally relationship.

58:46before we had the companion. And I think the companion grew as I got older. That's my take on it. And I would echo exactly what Julia said. And I think as we were raising them, right, you treat them differently as they're young. And then each stage, as they mature, and they have their personalities and their likes and dislikes, that's fine too. That's what we should be having. And then going back to now getting in the cockpit with her to look over, I mean, I couldn't be prouder. I know what it takes to start off as nothing, not even a private pilot. And she worked her butt off for five years to get to her goal, which was Southwest Airlines.

59:26So how can you not be proud when your kid sets a timeline and then achieves that timeline? Jim, now that you've retired, you're not flying together anymore. Do you think about looking for other ways to be allies? Do you have other projects that you'll do together? So, yeah. So first, all of us, we love our sports and our family. So we love doing those things together, whether it's skiing or in the backyard, throwing the ball, kicking the ball. So that will always have. I did just take a job with Southwest Airlines as a sim instructor, part-time. Congratulations. So that's all I get to do is go in the simulator.

1:00:01And I get to train pilots during requalification training. And it also keeps me involved with Julia because she'll have to come to that training center. And I may know some people after 25 years where she may end up in my sim with me. So that's how I'll stay involved in what she's doing also. And I enjoy it. And that's for me too, not just for her, but for me. How did adding this collaboration dimension to your relationship change your personal bond? It's just another thing that we get to talk about, right, that brings us together. and whether it's talking about an actual flight or the people or the company, right?

1:00:43The more you have in common with someone, usually that's going to bring you even closer together. My favorite part about flying with my dad is the first officer typically does the walk around, but I told him he needed a little exercise. He had to do a couple laps, so I'd make him do the walk arounds.

1:01:01And that was a fun thing that we got to do, and I would tease him about it and stuff. So I can make a little bit more jokes with my dad than I could just another person. Yeah, the psychological safety is built in there. Yes. And it really was. When actually kids go to college, they're on their own and they want to be on their own. So this really was the most bonding time we have had, really, since they were in high school. So that was also really, really nice. Okay. I actually have a... Asia, I think you have a pair of questions to play. Let's do them one at a time. So I don't know if you're familiar with Hank and John Green, but we were talking to them about their brother bond, which is just fascinating.

1:01:41And I thought you were the exemplary father-daughter bond. But when I was talking to them, I thought I would prompt them to ask you a question because they had seen your clip and they were very curious about your connection, too. So, Asia, can you play John's question first? So, John, what would you want to know about their connection? I would want to know, to what do you credit the closeness in adulthood? My kids are still young-ish, but I'm very curious about how to cultivate a good vibe as they become adults. And I would like to know any feedback they have on how best to do that. Do you want to talk first?

1:02:24No, you can go. I would say for me, I think having an honest relationship from when I was young is kind of what set the tone. If I had a bad soccer game or got a bad grade on a test, he would tell me straight, like, I don't think you studied hard enough or I don't think you put enough effort in. And I think knowing that he always was going to be honest and have my back at the same time is what really cultivated that relationship for me. And I would say for me, you know, it's a two-way street. It's the way your kids treat you also and how we were able to trust them. So I think I cultivated a relationship when they were young to them to have high expectations, but then to watch them succeed.

1:03:11And again, they didn't make excuses and they tried. They always did what I asked of them. And then as they grew older, you understand that they're going to have difference of opinions in you. And I think that's a good thing, you know, that we think of things differently. And we all do in this family. We have discussions about, you know, everything from politics to religion, and it's okay to disagree. But then again, I think that helps build respect for each other and compatibility and love for each other when you can do that without getting down each other's throats. Yep. Great. Okay, let's go to the Hank question.

1:03:46Hank Green: I want to know what they complain about. They have this shared experience of being pilots. You know, in the public-facing part of it, you need to exude competence. That's a lot of the job is to just, like, look extraordinarily competent. But I bet there's all kinds of annoying stuff about being a pilot that they get to whine to each other about.

1:04:07Pilots love complaining for the most part about things. gosh that's actually harder than it should be because you don't really complain that much he complains about people who complain that's he complains about he's like gosh this person's complaining and they don't realize how good they have it why are they complaining and he'll complain for hours on people who complain meta complaining I do compare with Julia at times because she is our stubborn one. And you learn that over the years. She was stubborn when she was two, when she's 28, and she's still stubborn. And that's just her makeup, right?

1:04:46And sometimes we have to give her a chance just to vent and have one or two alone moments. And I'm the type who keeps going at her. And my wife says, well, Jim, just back up for a second. Give her a second. And so that's our dynamic there, which is different than with my other two kids. It's just a different dynamic. So I've learned that. So related, I guess, to that, as we wrap up, if you were to both give one tip about how parents can stay close to their adult children, what would you suggest? Communicate, constantly communicate. You know, as parents, we're not perfect. And so I think the kids have to understand that we make mistakes, they make mistakes, and it's okay to admit those mistakes.

1:05:31And it doesn't make you a bad person when you make a mistake. I would say as the child support, whether you like agree with every decision or not, just having your parents support means a lot. And if they support you and your decisions and your endeavors and dreams, I think that that allows the communication and allows your bond to grow and you can maintain the bond that you have created. I'm just curious about what that looks like. So I disagreed with one of our kids recently on a choice, but I still wanted to be supportive. And I said, personally, I would make a different decision based on what I know, but this isn't my decision.

1:06:15It's yours. And whatever you decide, I support that. Did I fail or succeed? That sounds exactly word for word, something that my dad has said to me before. He said, I don't agree with your decision. I don't have to respect your decision, but I respect you. And if these are your decisions, then I will support you. Oh, I like that version better. If I was giving fatherly advice to you, I think that's exactly what you do, right? Because you know what? Your kids aren't going to agree with every decision you're making either. They're your kids, but they can still look and go, you know, I don't agree with dad.

1:06:50But same thing. I want that respect and that support and to understand that we have differences. We're human beings. Beautifully said. Well, I can't thank the two of you enough. This has been everything I hoped it would be and more. And we got a tiny glimpse, a snapshot of this special relationship the two of you have. And I've just loved every minute of getting to see more of it. And it makes me feel even more strongly like this is the kind of relationship I want to have with my kids. So thank you for sharing that with me and also especially with our audience. Well, thanks for having us. We appreciate it.

1:07:30Rethinking is hosted by me, Adam Grant. The show is produced by TED with Cosmic Standard. Our producer is Jessica Glazer. Our editor is Alejandra Salazar. Our engineer is Asia Pilar Simpson. Our technical director is Jacob Winnick. And our fact checker is Paul Durbin. Our team includes Eliza Smith, Roxanne Hilash, Banban Chang, Julia Dickerson, Tansika Sung Manivong, and Whitney Pennington Rogers. Original music by Hansdale Hsu and Alison Leighton Brown.

1:08:01Have you ever been to the town Hell, Michigan? No. They actually have a great pizza place on a lake called the Zuki Lake Tavern, but it's mostly a biker town.

1:08:08Hank Green: Did the bikers come first or were they like, ah, there's a town called Hell, we should hang out there and eat pizza? I'm hoping they named it to scare people away. Because they don't want people to see it. They're just playing Jenga. They just do pub trivia and karaoke. Their boundary object is Hello Kitty.

1:08:29And the award for best callback goes to John.

1:08:32Hank Green: Yeah, that was very good, John. This episode is sponsored by Scribd, the knowledge platform home to more than 350 million documents shared by real people. We're often encouraged to think differently. And sometimes thinking differently starts with seeing how someone else thinks. When you're working through a difficult question or trying to understand a complicated subject, you don't necessarily have to begin with a blank page. You can start by exploring what others have researched, written, and figured out, then take those ideas somewhere new. Whatever you're working on, Scribd is where you go to find information, build understanding, and get it done.

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