Empowering Independent Voters: The Keys to Ending Political Polarization with Lura Forcum

0:00Do young people value the idea of the American dream in your mind? Oh, absolutely. I think that's a really interesting question too. And it's something we've seen in our research. Younger generations absolutely have an American dream. It just doesn't look like what older generations had. This is Right About Now with Ryan Alford, a Radcast Network production. We are the number one business show on the planet with over 1 million downloads a month. Taking the BS out of business for over six years and over 400 episodes. You ready to start snapping next and cashing checks? Well, it starts right about now.

0:39What's up, guys? Welcome to Right About Now. We're always talking about what's now. We can talk about the future. We can talk about the past. But we're talking about today. What you need to know, how you get ahead. And look, I think you're going to recognize a name today because I've been talking about it for a few months. It really matters today. a lot of the stuff that's going on is very partisan and very political. And I like to cut through the bullshit and ultimately talk about policies that matter. That's why I love the Independence Center. And that's why we brought the president. We're going straight to the top, baby.

1:18Straight to the top. We got the doctor of independence, Lori Forkham. What's up, Lori? Hey, Ryan. Good to be here. Good. Thank you for having me. Yeah, it's good. It's good. In person, too. You know, I was like, hey, can't pass that up. I know. I'm your neighbor. I know. And you're down the road. I'm down the road in Pendleton. And you're in marketing and you're a professor at Clemson where I went. How did we not know each other? Well, I were the same age, so I was not a professor when you were there. This is true. No, I was a professor after you finished there. But I spent several years teaching marketing there, studying human behavior, psychology.

1:57sheet. Yeah. What motivates people? Oh, that's a long, that's a whole separate podcast. I know you did that though. Like it did not boil down to like one or two things though. Yes. So I would say like the key motivation for everybody is their relationships and feeling connected to other people, the people around them. It's their family, it's their friends, it's neighbors and communities. Like we are inherently social animals and you can explain so much of human behavior by trying to like protect those relationships. People flourish when they're connected to other people. And they, like, we know now that people who are socially isolated, just life is really hard for them.

2:41They have poor health outcomes, all kinds of things. So we are social creatures. Yes, we are. And, you know, I'm not Mr. Academia. We had that discussion. Another story for another day. I've talked about it on the show, But I do like some marketing books. Some of my favorite are like The Art of Persuasion and like those kind of things. And because I always say people think with their head and they buy with their heart. Absolutely. I mean, so one of the relationships we have is with ourself, right? Like you could think of that as almost a social relationship. And people buy things and ideas, right?

3:19And like relationships in some senses, when it helps them feel more connected to themselves, like that's their identity, right? Like that is our relationship with ourself. So whatever marketers can do to make it seem like their product helps you be more connected to yourself or to the other people in your life, like that's such a motivating factor. I think so. I think it actually ties into the American dream too. Yeah, absolutely. When you think about those motivations and the history of that, And that's what's so fascinating. We've been talking about that on the show. And I love what the Independence Center is doing around this, you know, bringing the studies, the data, the stuff.

3:58We've done the man on the street stuff, which you've probably seen in some of my content. But I mean, when you hear like, you know, Laura Forkham, like what, what's the American dream to you? I have a very geeky American dream. And this is kind of what I have realized as my career has developed. But like, to me, what's really exciting is when people are participating in public policy conversations, which I know is not for everybody, right? But I know it's important to you too. I think the thing that's really important is people making their voices known about what they need to live their lives the way they want, what they don't need.

4:40And that's how we make everybody better off. And I know that politics right now happens in a way that's very off-putting to people. A lot of people are checked out because they don't want to participate in the vitriol and divisiveness that you talked about. And so what I realized was I wanted to take my research expertise and like that background and translate it into like, can we make this better? Can we make it so that people want to participate in politics? It doesn't feel polarizing. It feels like something for everybody. So I look at policy as like, this is how we as different complex individuals sort out our values and what we need and like figure out how to make our lives better.

5:25And so that's that's my American dream. Yeah, we love the man on the street interviews that you guys did, because I think what they show is that like instead of everybody having the same American dream, right? People have very unique American dreams, but the thing that matters is you're pursuing what's important to you and that you can get those things through your own effort. I was surprised. We've talked. I mean, they almost felt scripted because of how thoughtful they were and how they aligned with what we assume to be kind of like the silent majority of people that feel this way about the American dream and have diverse feelings.

6:09But, you know, there's also this era of feeling scared to sort of talk about it. Yes. And because no one wants to be polarizing and they're kind of tired of it, so they don't want to feed that. Yeah. And it's like, it's almost hard to have an opinion and feel like you can have a dialogue. I think this is a terrible place to be in when it's like, I need to make sure you agree with me before we talk about politics. Exactly. You know, how can we have conversations about how we want elected officials to behave or what kind of laws are right or what kind of programs are right if we need to know that we agree before we can even talk about it?

6:48Yeah, exactly. Of course, we're different people. This is a really like diverse country. It's OK to disagree. Right. Like, I think we're actually better by the fact that we like and value different things. That makes us stronger. Yeah. I mean, creativity comes from the very fabric of different ideas and thoughts blended together. Yeah, absolutely. Like if you were only exposed to ideas and people you agreed with, like your life would be impoverished. That's right. I mean, and I think about myself growing up, the diversity within my own family dynamic is what makes you who you are. Like, and we get in these, I don't know, echo chambers and I don't know when that, you know, I'm in my forties, but I don't, it wasn't always that way.

7:35Even in my growing up, I didn't feel like, I feel like, cause I can remember, I feel like in my twenties where I'd have disagreements with people about certain things and it was okay. You know, like we'd still have beers at night or go out or play a sport. I just, I don't know. When did that flip? I don't know, but I think what's accelerating it, one of the things accelerating it is, you know, algorithms and social media are just showing you the stuff that they can tell that you like. Right. And so you just get more and more insulated from other points of view. And, you know, sometimes you hear somebody else's point of view and you change your mind.

8:11Sometimes you hear somebody else's point of view and you're just like, well, that's interesting, but no thanks. Yeah. But I you know, I don't think that you are made worse off by hearing what other people think, because sometimes they agree with you for a different reason. That's right. And I think like we benefit from being connected like this, even if we're not in total agreement. Do young people value the idea of the American dream in your mind? Oh, absolutely. I think that's a really interesting question, too. And it's something we've seen in our research where younger generations absolutely have an American dream.

8:48It just doesn't look like what older generations had as their American. A shiny house with the white picket fence. Right. It's not a house. On the little house on the prairie. And like 2.5 kids or something, right? Whatever that number is. Yeah. And a dog and a cat and maybe some fish. yeah i think sometimes like older generations think like oh i can't relate to the kids today they don't even want the things we used to want and like they do it just looks a little bit different right like they're more interested in younger generations are more interested in experiences rather than material things um and i think that's there's actually a lot of research showing that um people consuming experiences is like really meaningful um and so i i think it's really cool, the research you did too, the interviews, because it shows like, this is how different it can look, but it's all still the same overarching thing, which is we know who we are and we're pursuing the things that make our lives rich and meaningful.

9:46And then the question for the IC, for the Independence Center is like, okay, well, what kind of policy environments and governing makes that easier for people to accomplish? You know, I've thought a lot about this and it comes back to like some really simple things to me. Security, safety, and the right to do whatever the hell I want when I want, you know, like within reason, within the law. As long as it doesn't hurt other people. But it's security, safety, freedom. That's the American dream. It might be a shiny house. It might be a rented apartment, but you have security and safety and an assurance that that you can make it on your own, right?

10:30Or with your family dynamic, whatever that is. Yeah, absolutely. Actually, so some previous research I conducted, what we looked at was instead of asking people, what's your political party? We asked them those same things that you just named. We asked them questions about, do you have the resources you need? How socially connected are you? Do you feel like you're part of a community? And we asked them about harm, which is related to your idea of security. We asked them, what is harmful? What hurts other people? What should we do about harm? So we took those and we formed them into these segments.

11:10And the interesting thing about that is they're not political segments, right? So politics is not any one of those needs that you just named. And somehow we put it on top of our lives and made this really destructive kind of argumentative polarizing conversation like so important when really it's not any of those things that you just talked about. Yeah. Yeah. It's definitely grown in perceived importance that doesn't really align with the actual value or interest. Yeah, that's one of the things I've found about living in South Carolina. So I'm not originally from here. I'm a transplant. But one of the things I noticed is that, you know, the people around me may have voted really differently than I did, but we can still all get together and run our town in a way that is healthy and makes it a strong community.

12:09Like we don't have to agree with each other in order to be good neighbors with each other. Still Americans. Yeah, we're all Americans at the end of the day. And I think this like political rhetoric that the other side is the enemy and has to be obstructed. Like this just pushes people out of politics. And I want to bring them into I want to bring them in. That's what the IC is here to do is bring people into political participation. What do you think are some of the bigger, I don't know, meaningful topics that are at the heart of people today that need to be elevated? I think one of the really big things that we hear from our audience is about entrepreneurship.

12:57And I think that's something your audience is interested in as well. And so, you know, if you're trying to build a business, I think that has aspects of like your relationship and your identity, because it's about like, what are you really good at and what really excites you at the end of the day? And you can do in a way that nobody else can do. Right. And so we know our audience is interested in entrepreneurship. And then the question is, like, what are the policies that make it easier for you to succeed in growing a company or growing a business? and what kind of policies are going to make that hard.

13:30So it touches all kinds of things, right? And like really complex areas that you and I are not experts in. Yes. In finance and like all kinds of complicated stuff, right? Immigration policy. But the overarching question is sort of like, well, what are the things that we could do? And what is the legislation that could be enacted so that people can build their businesses and they prosper? And then they're making life better for all of us because I buy your products, right? I can use the services and things that are being created. I mean, what makes America great is our ingenuity and creativity and small businesses, entrepreneurs starting and then growing them maybe into the next Tesla or maybe the next local coffee shop.

14:18But that's sort of the fabric of America. So if we're not stimulating that, we're in trouble. Right. And, you know, if you have policies that make it hard for somebody to open a business, whether it's a coffee shop, a salon, right? Like if it's just impossible to build things and to offer your services, then that makes everybody worse off. It makes it hard for people to like get their American dream. and so we need to I think it's it's cool to see the extent to which people I think this is part of like the side hustle right like that way of looking at work is is sort of saying well what am I good at and what does the market need and then you know the independent centers angle is sort of like okay what else would make it so that you can pursue those things right and what are the barriers?

15:11Do we really need gatekeepers who are saying like, no, you can't open that business or no, you can't build that? Yeah. Laura, this likes to lead me right into the water that I'm wanting to wade into. I love it. Talking to Laura Forkham. She is the president of the Independent Center. So Laura, I think when you think about politics, the right and the left, I'm going to oversimplify, But I want to know where we feel like the independent. I know the independent center is Switzerland, but it's more the policies than not the politics. I'm going to lead it with the politics. I think the right, less government, less involvement.

15:53Get out of my shit. The left doesn't necessarily say get in my shit, but we need governance. We need hardcore. I mean, I'm simplifying, but I think that's a big difference of the right. Like the Independence Center being Switzerland and listening to people that's about policies. Do people lean more right or left in that or not even right or left? Let's get politics over here. Do they lean more regulation or less regulation from what you guys hear? Our audience, when we're surveying them, we are absolutely hearing them say like less gatekeepers, right? Like less regulation is probably the right way to go.

16:34they want government that is effective. And the problem with the polarization right now is that these are two parties that are just entrenched and doing their own thing instead of what's best for the American people. So what we hear from our audience is like, we expect government to be effective, end of story. And, you know, when parties are instead just kind of obstructing and not working with the other side, that is not serving anybody but them, right? So it's really interesting. Obviously, we do a lot of research on our audience. We do surveying and polling. We do some AI insights work. And we do focus groups and one-on-one interviews.

17:20And one of the things that strikes me a lot is that independents are, excuse me, independents are like incredibly thoughtful people who understand that policy is really complex and there are trade-offs in policy, right? Like you think you're getting one thing, you end up with something else. And so they're just aware that like, this is a complicated process and having these two super polarized parties is not going to get you the kind of good, high quality policy that would make people's lives better. Yeah. I think we've lost compromise. I know. It sounds weak. And I hate, as a strong opinion guy, it is like, you know, like, I don't know that I always like to, but I like effectiveness.

18:11You do. Yeah. And it's ineffective not to compromise sometimes. Yeah. Somehow compromise means like. Oh, you gave in and you're weak. Yeah. No, it means that there's usually middle ground. Yes. You found common ground. Like that's, that's actually some strength because it's like, you knew what was important to you. You understood what was important to the other side and you found an area where you could overlap. Exactly. And that's what's missing. I mean, that's like, it's just, I'm going to have my way. And we've gotten to where like used to be that, But then it's just now brute force of my way or the highway.

18:47Yeah. Seemingly. Yeah. I mean, some people describe this as politics where you're saying like the problem in politics is that my side doesn't have more power. And I think independents are saying regardless of who has power, we expect you to govern. We expect the government to work. We expect some fiscal accountability. Like let's be sensible here with our spending. and let's be sensible on the social side too. Like we can tolerate other people's behavior that doesn't impact us. Yeah. And we see a lot of that. We see it in younger generations, especially are more likely to say that they're independent because they really don't see either side as totally representing who they are.

19:31Yeah. I mean, it's a melting pot of, you know, I like this, I like that. And it's supposed to be that way, right? Yeah. We're forced seemingly by our social groups into one camp or the other. Yeah. Like it's really more like a tribe than it is. It is. Very tribal. It's very tribal. And social media is, you know, the stomping ground of it all. Yes, absolutely. And the other thing that comes from my research and some of the social psychology looking at human dynamics. So there's this work about in-groups and out-groups. And out-groups over human history were like people you warred with. They were the other guys, the bad guys, right?

20:21And the problem, I think, in American politics is that we've gotten to this in-group, out-group dynamic where the other side is the out-group. It's okay to take from them. It's okay to harm them. They don't count. They're not us. That's not how I think anybody wants us to be treating fellow Americans, right? Like we can have a politics that is about differing opinions, but at the end of the day, we're still citizens of the same country. Like these are not our enemies. We are not outgroups to one another. Yeah, exactly. It's all one America back to the thing. And I think that's what most people want.

20:59And again, we forced into these camps and it's even a struggle for me because you think about how you're independent. You're still trying to be wooed to one side or the other, typically, especially like when it comes to voting time. And it's like, yeah, we have a two party system for the most part. I mean, independence never won the president. Right. And so I don't know where this, you know, how do we break the pattern that we're in? So, I mean, this is absolutely what we are saying to people is that you don't need to vote for a third party to be an independent. You can be an independent and exercise your vote and and vote for the candidates and the policies that you think are more successful.

21:47I think what's really unhealthy is when people are dropping out of political participation because they don't feel attached to either party. So they're sort of saying, well, I'm apolitical. And what we want to say to independents is if neither of those parties are for you, that's fine. But like come in and express your opinion at the ballot box. They swing vote, right? They split ticket. We saw tons of split ticket voting this last election. So somebody at the top is voting for Donald Trump. Lower down the ticket, they're voting for Democrats, for governors and senators and representatives. So like that's what an independent does.

22:25And that's awesome. We need that kind of political participation because they're saying what matters most is not my tribe. It's a government that actually works. Yeah. And I've been vocal about where I voted in the last election, but I voted on both sides of the aisle in multiple elections in past elections. I am a true independent. But then I felt even my own personal experience of getting thrown into one camp or the other because I like a certain policy, being an entrepreneur on the side of things. and not because I'm in love with the person, but I like the policies. And so even I've felt the, you know, the wave of one side being happy and the wave of another side just, you know, lumping me in with something else.

23:15They assume they know everything about you because they know about one policy you support and one candidate, you know, this time around. Yeah. No, these like blanket kind of assumptions about people, you know, people support the things they support and they value the things they value for all kinds of complicated reasons. But like when we assume that the other side votes the way they do, because they are bigoted or snowflakes or whatever, we're just not understanding each other. We can't govern like that. Yeah. What drives you every day? Like, you know, like what, what, what sets your frame of reference for, you know, why you do what you do?

23:54Oh, that's a great question. So, I mean, like I have three kids. My kids are, I think like parenting them, maybe this has been your experience too, but parenting them has made me realize like it doesn't work the way I thought it would work. Right. Like they don't follow orders. Okay. Doctor, maybe you're parenting better than I am. No, I don't know about that, but I'm probably a little less structured. My wife is not though. She's a principal at a middle school. So they get both sides of the aisle. I can sit my watch. I know exactly what she's doing right now. Okay. I parent the way you do. But it's like they have their unique gifts.

24:37And I want them to be able to flourish as human beings. And I want a world where they can flourish. And I feel like I have to trust them to do the things that are important to them and that are who they are. and so I think that applies to like how we think about politics too actually it's like we have to trust people to pursue the things that are like deeply who they are deeply meaningful to them that makes their lives more meaningful it makes the world a better place but like it means you let go of a lot of control right because I'm not going to dictate what is best for them I'm going to have to like, let them choose that, find their way.

25:21Right. And I try like for my kids, my, a big part of my energy is like, how do I, how do I help you find that and put the things in front of you that, that will let you express yourself the version of you you'd like to be. And so I think like, that's how we should be looking at public policy too. It's like, How do we help people flourish and be abundant and trust them to make choices for themselves instead of saying, well, we're going to tell you what the answers are and how to live and how to run your life and what's okay and what's not okay? It's hard as hell to let control go. Oh, it's really hard.

26:01Not because you're – I'm not a controlling person at all. uh myself yes uh very particular but like others or even but with your children though you know because you know what they don't know and you want the best for them and it's you know there's the fine line of living vicariously through your children which some people do i'm thought let's put that over to the side and more like wanting the best for them and knowing what are hard paths and what are easier paths and letting them figure that out while also coaching them. It's funny because I just had the thought, maybe you were a kid like I was.

26:41I was a kid that you could not tell me anything. Yeah, I was close. Were you kind of like that? I got along with everyone, but silently you couldn't really tell me much of anything. Yeah, I did not take any feedback or advice as a kid. Right. My oldest kid is like that. It is infuriating. And now I know. It's my payback. Yeah, it is your payback. Yes. But yeah, like he's just going to have to figure it out. Right. And like I need to stop him from doing things that have permanent consequences. But the rest of it is like, well, you're going to you're going to figure this out. Eventually, you'll realize like your mom knows one or two things.

27:23Yeah, that might be it. But oh, PhD, you know, if you learn one or two things. what's success look like for the Independence Center? Oh, that is a great question. You know, we're really focused on being like bottom up. We're not trying to tell this audience of people what to do. We're concentrating on listening to them through our research and focus groups and polling, all this stuff. And we're trying to help them voice what is important to them and what they need through the political process. Right. Like we want them to participate politically and in policy conversations. So we're in a lot of senses like listening to them.

28:11So I would say our metric of success is like, can we get more people engaged in public policy conversations? Can we get more people checked back into politics? Because, you know, where we are so polarized, right, like we can't get really extreme positions out of politics, but we can add in more people who have more nuanced views. And I think that's where there's a huge opportunity for us. Yeah, I think about social media and the podcast. I mean, I'm marketing. We're marketers. You're marketers. It's such a great vehicle for exchanging ideas and doing things. But when I hear you answering that question and I even think about my own life, I feel like it gets in the way sometimes, though, of progress, of this type of thinking and thought and independence.