Risky Business #850 -- Widespread AI-enabled attacks target Siemens PLCs

0:05Patrick Gray: Hi everyone and welcome to Risky Business. My name's Patrick Gray. We've got a great show for you this week. James Wilson, as always, will be joining me as co-host and in the third chair this week we are joined by Mr Ollie Whitehouse, the Chief Technology Officer for the UK's NCSC. Ollie Whitehouse, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me, Pat. This week's show is brought to you by Okta. And in this week's sponsor interview, I didn't do this one. James did this one. And James spoke to Okta's VP of Threat Intel, I think is his title now. He used to work with us, actually. The original Seriously Risky Business newsletter creator, who is now the VP of Threat Intel for Okta, Mr.

0:48Patrick Gray: Brett Winifred, joined James to talk through some of their thinking around the Threat Intel ITDR sort of stuff. Okta are providing some very useful notifications to their customers these days. And they've acquired permissor. They're moving into having a bit of a sort of commercial paid for threat Intel practice. So James and Brett talk about that a little bit later on in this week's show. But let's get into the news now. And look, as part of setting this up, every week we get a co-host. we send them a link which has a run sheet of all of the stuff that we plan to talk about unfortunately this first item when you read any of the coverage in it it is full of things like the NCSC has refused to comment so I know we can't ask you about this one Ollie so James and I'll discuss it real quick not much detail on it but there is reporting that hackers linked to Iran Iranian linked hackers conducted some sort of cyber attack against some small scale power generator in the UK somewhere what type of power generator it is is not specified all we know is that it was small and it was down for four days that's about the extent of it right James yeah that's the extent of it Pat

2:05James Wilson: it just seems like the same old pattern of around found something around messed with something and there was consequences but you know that said it's not great that they're in there messing with things attached to a power plant.

2:18Patrick Gray: Yeah, so the BBC wrote that the agency that regulates or oversees all this stuff said the incident had affected a small-scale generator and at no point had there been a risk to the wider energy system. The UK's power network has a number of smaller gas generators which provide short-term power when needed. So I don't know, that kind of reads like the BBC is implying that it was some sort of gas turbine infill generator. I mean, there's plenty of them on a grid. But, you know, I sort of wonder if it could have just been a small, smallish scale solar farm. I mean, you would still get these headlines.

2:48Patrick Gray: I do feel like some of the reporting around this has been a bit hysterical. You know, British power plant knocked offline for four days. You know, did you get that that vibe as well?

2:56James Wilson: I did. And, you know, I think the even though it was very much a no comment from various agencies in the UK, I think there was a telling comment where they said, look, we haven't had any actual reports of an outage from a regulated power facility. So I think that was a good way of saying, look, it's got to be small by virtue of the fact that we haven't actually had this as an official report from an actually large regulated power provider.

3:18Patrick Gray: Yeah. Now, the next thing to talk about, I mean, it is kind of related, right, which is hackers are using AI to target Siemens PLCs in critical US sectors. Gee, I wonder who could be doing that. Ollie, you know, we've seen the Americans put out some info here. It's actually pretty good. you know like they've put out some really good information put out some recommendations for what organizations should be doing they've also put out a fair bit of information on what the exploitation looks like in this case but you know what can you tell us about what these you know mystery hackers are doing to Siemens PLCs?

3:55Yeah so I think I think there's a couple of things in this so I think first is it shouldn't come as any surprise that artificial intelligence is being increasingly used in offensive use cases I think anyone that has used it has seen kind of the massive productivity gains that it provides. I think the underlying message I would take from this is it's time to put the end to PLCs on the internet. And I think anyone that's running kind of industrial control systems in that way needs to get after it quick. And so I think when we look at the advice that's given, it's sad advice, but often that's never the challenge.

4:27It's chasing down those that need to read it and then action it and making sure that they do action it. But, you know, it's quite clear that there are entrepreneurial and gregarious individuals and groups looking for this stuff now in 2026. And it's time to get after it as the defenders.

4:43Patrick Gray: Well, I mean, you say now is the time to get PLCs off the Internet. But I think the time to get PLCs off the Internet was probably like 15, 20 years ago, if I'm honest. But James, like you've had a look to at some of the like what they're actually doing here is actually kind of interesting. They've got some sort of like, there's this thing called Snap7.dll and Python Snap7. You can kind of use these things if you know what you're doing to talk to these PLCs over the internet. And it just looks like, I don't know, it looks like AI makes doing this sort of stuff easier. So it's not just about, you know, logging in with default credentials anymore.

5:23Patrick Gray: Or, you know, AI can read the manual for you and help you figure out how to actually do stuff with these PLCs.

5:29James Wilson: Yeah, I think the interesting thing about AI here is it's not, I wouldn't frame it as AI is making it easier to do this. I think for the first time, AI is making it possible for attackers to actually go after these PLCs. Like I've been fascinated with this over the last week or so. And I've been even looking at like, what would it take to create a little home lab of PLCs so I can mess around with this? And the answer is, I still can't work that out because this is just such a landscape full of proprietary protocols and terminology and these esoteric standards. And, you know, you look at what an LLM in the hands of someone that understands basics of hacking, it can make you better.

6:04James Wilson: But this is an area where I think the security through obscurity has been the load bearing part of the infrastructure for so long now. and now AI has cracked that big time because the obscurity is gone. A large language model, to your point, can read the manual. It does understand the standards and armed with things like the fact that there's open source libraries for talking, the bizarro protocols that these things run, means that we're going to have a real bad time with this as long as these things are either on the internet or the hosts that control them are also readily accessible on the internet.

6:39Patrick Gray: Now I'm guessing, Oli, you spend a lot of time with your head in this, right? And James and I were having a conversation about this earlier. And I think one thing that I find really interesting here is the targets that tend to have their PLCs attached to the internet, right, tend to not be the super critical ones, right? So it's almost like you've got these two levels of attacker. You've got the Iranians who just are port scanning for, you know, port 102 or whatever it is. Ah, I got one, you know, try a couple of things, try to create a bit of a mess. But then you've got that next level up, which is, you know, more your vault typhoon type of activity where you've got attackers who really know what they're doing, who are, you know, moving laterally through some pretty complicated networks to get proximity to these PLCs, which are not on the internet, right?

7:23Patrick Gray: And they tend to be the more critical ones. I mean, is that a fair sort of description of the landscape at the moment? Yeah, I think that's an extremely fair assessment of often what we see. And I think kind of James's point is well made and I think you know we've got to take this as almost a sign of things to come for other esoteric systems so whilst it's manifesting today in PLCs and industrial control systems the fact that we now have artificial intelligence which distills all human knowledge for a greater or lesser extent in what that's enabling on the offensive side so I think that's right but even though you know there's still the risk of a misconfiguration surprise, shall we say, even in large producers.

8:05And that's why there's no place for complacency here.

8:09Patrick Gray: Yeah, yeah. No, I think you're both onto something with the idea that that obscurity that we've, you know, I don't know that we've relied on it willingly, but it has protected us somewhat. I think that is gone. There's an interesting item here from the record. The United States government has charged a bunch of Iranians for hacking various government agencies, universities and whatnot. This is a campaign that apparently kicked off back in 2013. 17 people have been indicted. Eight of them have been previously indicted in 2018. I mean, I think, if anything, the lesson here is that probably DOJ has been instructed to go and like, if there are any Iranians you are planning on charging, please go do that.

8:51Patrick Gray: That's the sort of vibe here. But these are legit charges against people who've done, you know, legitimately illegal stuff. Oli, what are your thoughts here? Yeah, I think, you know, more broadly, what we're seeing is kind of the use of indictments such as this and the legal system to go after kind of cyber adversaries. And obviously, you know, in part, the intent there is to have a chilling effect and make people reevaluate their life choices. And so, you know, I think this is a trend that we should expect to occur across the globe as people and organizations and states look to kind of dissuade, deny and degrade kind of adversarial behavior and make sure it conforms to international norms.

9:35But, you know, it is a tried and tested part of statecraft.

9:40Patrick Gray: Yeah, it is. I mean, I think the thing here is, though, that the Americans are just sort of unrelenting, right? Like it has been a long time coming, these charges. but they, you know, what is that thing about, you know, you can have a billion dollars, but there's a snail that will crawl towards you for the rest of your life and if it touches you, you die. Like it sort of feels like, it feels like that's the vibe if you agree to do APT operations for enemies of the United States. Yeah, you don't want to ever go on holiday to extradition country, right? And so it has a certain curtailment on lifestyle.

10:12Patrick Gray: Yeah, it's always funny when these guys get busted going to Disneyland. All righty. So what else have we got here? Oh, the chopped cable. This one's been doing the rounds. We've linked through to it on the TechCrunch version, but I think it's based on some Bloomberg reporting. But the idea is here that T-Mobile has opened up about its, you know, conflict or its battle against the Salt Typhoon crew, which apparently involved some of its people traveling to a facility and physically severing a cable. Now, they probably could have just unplugged it, is my feeling. And now they actually have, you know, there's, well, I mean, you know they can unplug it because they've taken this yellow cable and put it in a frame.

10:56Patrick Gray: And there's a picture of it in the Bloomberg article and it does have a plug on one side. So you kind of think maybe they could have unplugged it, but they thought it was going to be a cool opportunity. It was a big moment. So, hey, who am I to argue? But beyond them just severing the cable, you know, what is this story really about, James?

11:12James Wilson: Yeah, it is very performative, but it's really about the fact that back in 2024, when Salt Typhoon was kicking off this particular campaign, T-Mobile did fare better than others insofar as they actually did detect the activity at the time. And I don't know whether it was all the activity, but certainly at that time, they were one of the few telcos that actually spotted something and were able to stop it. And we've since found out that, in fact, that's somewhat the outlier insofar as, you know, the SALT Typhoon campaign seems to have been quite successful in areas where it wasn't detected. So that's really the crux of it.

11:45James Wilson: I mean, the fact that that does come down to even in the Bloomberg article, there's the photo of this framed RJ45 and twisted pair cables sliced. And it's got some big, bold headline of vigilant by design, secure by action. It really does feel like it's, well, it's a great story for them to tell internally. and now they're getting a bit of run of it in the news as well.

12:06Patrick Gray: Yeah, what do you reckon, Ollie? Is this going to be NCSC advice now? Is like get out the scissors to defeat Salt Typhoon? Yeah, look forward to cyber instant response scissors near you soon. But I think there's a point here, which is this is, I would expect, largely symbolic, and I deeply want to believe that scissors were used. But I think the real takeaway for me here is that there are telecommunications operators with detection capability that can really get after some of the most sophisticated threats. And that's got to be a win, right? And I think as the world heads in the direction that it's heading.

12:39Patrick Gray: Now let's talk about CLOP and how utterly predictable the CLOP crew is. And I think that's like, I mean, it's amazing because it's been a few years now since they started with the file transfer appliances. And I interviewed someone, I can't remember, forgive me, I can't remember where they were from, but they'd actually observed the CLOP crew figuring out an O-Day on live targets. I think instead of like actually just downloading, you know, instead of actually getting the appliance, I think they were just like hacking away at live ones and eventually someone got a hold of the logs. But it seems like their whole model is they find an Oday, get it into a reliable place, and then off they go doing bulk exfiltration across as many targets as possible.

13:22Patrick Gray: And they do that first, then they categorize all of the information, then they go and do the data extortion part. The latest campaign, of course, we've spoken about on the show already. Two software products from a company called PTC. There's Windchill and FlexPLM. And James, I remember when we spoke about it, you're like, yeah, that's extremely valuable and sensitive information in these systems, things like pricing information and whatnot. More and more details emerging here. We've got some good reporting out of CyberScoop. I guess the thing that I find interesting here is the vendor is being a little bit coy on how it came to discover this vulnerability, which of course it is patched.

14:00But of course, the thing with CLOP is by the time anyone knows about the bug, they've already done all of the data exfil.

14:07Patrick Gray: Actually, Oli, let's start with you on this. I mean, I'm guessing that this has played out exactly also how you expected it to. And this is just like this crew has come up with a winning formula. Like, what can you even do here? Well, and I think, you know, there's a whole cadre of organizations that are all prepared for this threat, right? So we've got CLOP on one hand, which have demonstrated the ability, as you've said, repeatedly to do vulnerability research, exploit development, and then do kind of at-scale exploitation of that. Let's be really honest here that, you know, for a vast majority of organizations, they are not going to be able to defend against that.

14:43And I think that's the lived reality. And so, you know, what can the majority of organizations do? Well, I think it goes back to the prepare for breach type kind of response planning. And that's probably the best thing that most organizations can do whilst making sure that they have as robust defenses. But really, you know, all bets are off if someone is able to kind of pop your product and spam the internet.

15:09Patrick Gray: I mean, I feel like we need better access controls on this sort of enterprise crapware. Like, James, does this stuff even need to be on the internet? I mean, could you gate it past some sort of reverse proxy? Could you lock it up behind something like Knock Knock? Could you put it up behind a VPN? Like, surely there's something you could do to fix this.

15:27James Wilson: Yeah, this stuff does not belong on the internet at all. It is inherently an internal facing tool, but clearly a number of them were, and I would assume that is where at least the easy amount of exploitation and exfiltration is happening. It does also make me wonder, even if they're not on the internet, they're probably, you know, they are used by so many people at these organisations, entire functions, entire organisations. So a lot of people have access to it and so it's probably also the case that even beyond just the ones that are internet exposed, it's not too difficult for CLOP if they were also able to get access to credentials that were able to VPN in or some other mechanism to get to these, that they could exploit an even larger number through that.

16:09Patrick Gray: Yeah, well, that's depressing. And I mean, if that's the case, you know, a lot of these architectures, if they're not going to help you unless you're using MFA resistant auth and like, I don't know, and you just sort of get the impression there's not enough maturity out there in the enterprise anywhere to do much about this. I mean, Ollie, I know you agree with that. Yeah, very much so. You know, I think we all know in the security community what needs to be done here. and you're bang on right these shouldn't be on the internet there should be strong multifactorial authentication etc etc etc but i think time of memorial tells us again that the cliff edge of capability in in pretty much all sectors you know is really quite close to the top and so we shouldn't be surprised inevitably either through kind of legacy technology or inability or lack of knowledge that these things do manifest in practice because people's you know primary focus often is just running their business.

17:00It's not preparing their organizations for the cyber adventures.

17:05Patrick Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Well, let's see which next thing Klopp goes after, right? Because they're always pretty creative at picking interesting bits of software to go after. So, I mean, you and I, James, had never heard of this stuff before. And then as soon as you looked into it, you're like, oh God, like that's, yeah, you don't want that getting known. CISA has put out some really cool info, really cool write-up on Medusa ransomware. Not to be confused with, I think there's another one called Medusa Locker, which is a completely different operation. But they actually, it's just, it's just really good information and really good write-up on TTPs and what they're going after.

17:40Patrick Gray: I think the headline that Bleeping Computer has gone after here is Medusa ransomware hit over 500 critical infrastructure orgs. Obviously not what you want, but it's a good write-up of what sort of industrialised ransomware kind of looks like. Right, Oli? Yeah, very much so. And, you know, I think the thing that stood out for this story for me was the continued pain that initial access brokers are providing and the complexity of the ecosystem. So this is industrialised ransomware in all of its guises, showing that there is a rich set of interconnections there which are facilitating this scale and impact.

18:16and unless we get after being able to disrupt that at any material scale, it's going to be playing a game of literal whack-a-mole.

18:23Patrick Gray: Yeah, I mean, I'm jealous a little, I think, of the access brokers. I always feel like they've got the coolest job in cybercrime because they get to just pop a shell and walk away. They get to pop a shell and then someone gives them money. I mean, that's pretty cool. But yeah, look, that's just an interesting write-up. People can find links through to that in this week's show notes. We've also got some research here. apparently written up by Cybersecurity Dive that says that ransomware disproportionately targets medium-sized firms. This seems to be like something that, like just from us reading headlines and whatever, it seems to be something that, you know, just anecdotally it sort of feels true as well.

19:03Patrick Gray: We're seeing less of that big game ransomware. I think the message has finally gotten through to people in the underground that if you go after big enough targets or if you create a big enough ransomware as a service ecosystem, you're going to have problems with governments coming after you in unconventional ways. That's the sense I get. There could be other things to it as well, which is large corporates, their defenses have gotten better. I don't know that I buy that necessarily. But either way, it looks like this is a trend that's quite legit. I'm guessing, Oli, you have access to all sorts of awesome data internally and you will be able to tell us if this is true or not.

19:41Well, I think this is a broad trend that we see. And so I think, you know, what I'd say is we'll always see a top of the pyramid kind of big game ransomware events. But it's also quite clear that as the scale of the affiliate model has grown, that there is a larger concentration in the medium sized firms and that actually yields for them. So I don't think it necessarily is a surprise. I think it's more a symptom of the kind of the growing number and kind of players in this space, which leads to disproportionate kind of impact here. But yeah, it tallies with all the data, which is medium sized companies.

20:23They typically have a network infrastructure or systems infrastructure, which is a sufficient size. They have means to pay. And so they become victims accordingly. Yeah.

20:34Patrick Gray: Now let's talk about, and this one, I'm amazed, man. We are so lucky Microsoft found this one internally because they fixed a CVSS 10 deserialization bug in Antra. and you just think, come again? Like that would have been, in the hands of the wrong people, that would have been, oh my God, a proper planet melter. James, we don't really know all that much about the bug here, but geez.

21:05James Wilson: Yes. Geez. Like, you know, all is your customers. Yeah. Gone.

21:12Patrick Gray: Exactly right. Including Microsoft, mind you, because they're dog food, right? Yeah. So imagine what you could have done to the supply chain with a CVSS 10 out of 10 deserialization bug in Entra?

21:21James Wilson: Well, not too much, actually, because GitHub would have been down, so you couldn't actually distribute your packages. But jokes aside, yeah, we don't know much, but gosh, I want to know more. A deserialization bug that's a CVSS 10 out of 10 in Entra is in and of itself a little bit of a concern. That should be the domain of things that are getting regularly fuzzed and checked on because that's such a primary attack surface. You know, untrusted data in, you've got deserialization code running, and then there's your code execution path. So, you know, my point here was also that the transparency is good.

21:54James Wilson: I get it. That's a cultural shift that's important. But we shouldn't also forget that this is just as useful, if not more useful, that is this disclosure, in the hands of an attacker. Because it points to the fact that, hey, there's pretty amazing bugs like a deserialization remote code execution in Entra ID. what else might be lurking that has not been found just yet?

22:15Patrick Gray: Well, so I know you're doing a lot of vulnerability discovery at the moment. And one of the things that you've been doing is looking at where various vendors have fixed stuff and then going around and looking adjacently at like, you know, what they didn't have time to fix. And I understand your perspective, but I will also say that you have not been in the security discipline as long as Ollie and I have. We remember the bad old days when stuff like this would have been like the idea of Microsoft coughing up details on something like this, you know, just was unthinkable. And the problem is once you have that that culture of burying stuff, like all sorts of other bad stuff happens.

22:51Patrick Gray: I don't know that I'm explaining this particularly eloquently, but I'm sure, Ollie, as someone who's been around in this longer than I have, you know what I'm getting at here. yeah and i think if you work on the basis this is around what we want is greater transparency in in the marketplace to understand those that are investing getting after their vulnerabilities paying down their levels of technical debt this is you know an exemplar of that behavior and i think you know could you imagine a world where all vendors did this and we actually had a full sense of the kind of the level of vulnerability that was being found and actually remediated so we could actually use that as an external measure of sorts if we were on the buy side of those solutions.

23:27I think the world would have less of an information vacuum than it does today. And so this type of behavior is something that we deeply support on that market incentives piece.

23:37Patrick Gray: Well, I mean, it's funny there that you said that it's like they're cleaning up technical debt, considering Entra is like, you know, as your AD, it's basically new, right? Like, really? Yeah, but all software, as you know, when you write it, incurs a degree of technical debt as you start off. No one ever writes perfect software from the get-go. And so the fact that things have kind of crept in at some point during that development process shouldn't come as any surprise. Anyone that can write perfect software, do drop me a line because I think you are truly a unicorn. It's also probably, you know, it's sort of bagat from Active Directory as well.

24:10Patrick Gray: So you can tell there's probably some scary, like old, crusty AD code in there somewhere. But I mean, look, I've got to ask though, I mean, did you have the same reaction as me, which is like a CVSS 10 in Entra? And you're like, wow. Well, I think I'm more balanced in terms of I think any product has a potential, shall we say, to have a CVSS 10. I think Time and Memorial has shown that. You know, if we go back to back in the day, we had OpenSSH with similar. You know, pretty much every technology that we had seen at some point either has demonstrated the ability to have or has had. So I think I'm less surprised that it came to pass.

24:48I think you have to be an optimist in these roles. I'm deeply optimistic of the fact that it was chased down and patched and hope they've done variant analysis and eradicated all similar.

25:00Patrick Gray: I think that's the point, right, is that they found it internally. The only reason we know about it is because they coughed it up. So that is actually quite good. All right. So there's another absolute clangor as well this week, which is there's an Internet Key Exchange extension MS iKey, which is there's a bug in that one as well and that is being exploited in the wild that's not a good time but you know ike has always been an absolute like dumpster fire right so i

25:26James Wilson: don't think we should be surprised by anything here yeah it's uh so when i was going through reading this i couldn't actually get a handle on is this truly being exploited what is the exploit because what we know is that yes there is a legitimate double free bug in microsoft's IKE extensions. It's like they've layered a bunch of stuff on top of IKE, which was already a pretty creaky foundation. And in the extension that they've got there, there's a very early part of the protocol where you're just initially setting up the session. The attacker can do the initialization, then send two fragmented packets that, because they're fragmented, the way they're reassembled has a bug, it does a double free.

26:07James Wilson: But just having a double free in a modern operating system does not get you remote code execution. So there's still a big question mark in my mind as to how have they gone from, how have these attackers gone from this double free that happens very early on in the protocol to apparently being exploited because it is on the Kev, but we don't have details around what that exploitation actually is. But it's in IKE, so if there was ever a part of a code base that is going to have plenty of other things that you can leverage and chain together to turn into an exploit, this would be one of the top areas that I would certainly go looking around it and then probably IPv6 next after that.

26:42Patrick Gray: Now we're just going to have a quick chat about some research out of Wiz, which has found one of these supply chain compromises in the Rust supply chain. They've linked it back to North Korea. There was a package, a malicious package was live for 86 minutes. And it was properly malicious. It was a little bit malicious. It was like a proper shell you pretty good immediately kind of thing. And this utility, it's an array conversion utility called ArrayRef, has over 245 million downloads, right? So I'm guessing they've still got some shells and some backdoor boxes because of this one. But I mean, this is like, funnily enough, this isn't even big news, right?

27:25Patrick Gray: Stuff like this is just worker day these days.

27:27James Wilson: It's kind of amazing that it is so worker day, especially when there's some really great tradecraft in here. Like, as you said, this is not like the shy-helded worms that we've seen where it's like smash and grab, get out there, snap up all the credentials or the crypto wallets and then move on and be loud. If you look at what this actually does, it's proper like long-term persistence backdoor with a lot of different ways that you can then get back into that machine. The payload itself and the various runners that it downloads even have this whole command set that the remote attackers can use to do various things on the box.

28:01James Wilson: And so, yeah, you kind of imagine they've got a ton of shells. It wouldn't surprise me if they're actually having to use Rust and ArrayRef as a performant code base to actually triage and manipulate and to even make sense of the sheer amount of data that they've been able to exfiltrate out of this.

28:17Patrick Gray: Now we're going to talk a little bit about a new prompt injection attack. I mean, that's basically what it is. My note on this one is this is not a solvable problem. Ola, you put a note on this one too, saying that NCSC wrote in December 2025 that prompt injection is not SQL injection. It may be worse because you explained that this is in part because there's no conceptual difference between data and instructions in LLMs. Something that we've said on the show a bunch of times. You're mixing code, you're mixing data, and this is a perfect example of this. Why don't you actually walk the listeners through exactly how this works?

28:53Patrick Gray: Because it is actually pretty clever. yeah firstly i think you know what we see here is uh kind of large language models being applied on on the back end and what uh researchers have increasingly uh found is you can provide inputs with then instructions to the models on how to treat that input and so in this instance they gave it encrypted data and then they gave instructions wrapping around it on on how to decrypt that data in order to then internally process it and and the purpose of doing that is that it circumvents various generally front-end classifiers and other input validation mechanisms that may exist.

29:31And we actually saw a previous example of this where someone used Morse code in order to circumvent the front end. And so it's the fact that these models can reason and they can do secondary processing, and obviously they can take instruction from humans and you wrap it all up.

29:47Patrick Gray: But in this case, basically the attacker is asking the model to construct an encryption key out of all of the data that they want. So it does. It does it. It just cobbles a lot of, oh, well, you know, this system needs a key that's made from all of this history and, like, these sensitive, you know, I'll put it together so I can read the thing and do my job, right? But this is the thing. You read this. It's really creative, right, okay, and it involves sort of sidestepping some classifiers, but there's no fundamental fix here, right? And, like, there just ain't. No, and so I think, you know, this is where you start to think about actually how you do segregation on the back end so the fact that you're mixing user sessions so there was a great challenge that we had this week from a from a third party researcher which is how do you do user isolation on inference for example and that's for example one one architectural approach that you may employ here to kind of do that separation so there's no actual other user data to exfiltrate if you can do in terms of previous sessions so this is going to require some further work on on that front in order to actually come up with anything that's actually practicable, but we should not expect this to be the last.

30:50There can be a lot more creative ways to both get things in and then data out.

30:54Patrick Gray: Well, I just wonder what prompt injection is going to look like in five years. It's going to be pretty elaborate, but still possible. And I think that's the thing is, you know, the AI revolution is real. It is huge. It is going to really change the world. And there's just this absolutely fundamentally like horrid, unsolvable, intractable problem with it all. But I mean, that's it. As I said on the show once, like maybe a year ago, our job is not to throw our hands up and say, oh, well, we can't use it. Our job is to figure out how we go forward. Real quick, there is a phishing toolkit out there.

31:33Patrick Gray: Some of the phishing toolkits these days, they've gotten so good. We're seeing a lot of device code phishing and stuff and people really getting around the deployment of pass keys and whatnot as best they can. In this case, we've got a phishing toolkit that is part of the initial sort of compromise of the credentials. It actually enrolls a passkey on behalf of the attacker into the account. And this is incredible because it means if you like invalidate those sessions, the attacker could just come back in with a passkey. So that's really interesting. Just wanted to mention it. We can link through to that one in this week's show notes.

32:10Patrick Gray: We've also got some corresponding story here looking at password spraying attacks just going absolutely wild at the moment. This one's actually a little bit interesting because we're seeing attackers go after stuff like, what is it, like Azure CLI tools, which is where they've discovered that's a really good way to go for it. But they're doing it smart. So they're doing stuff like Recon on LinkedIn to construct usernames based on people's titles. so they'll be like you know patrick.gray at risky.biz and then they're using that with commonly used you know password 123 and throwing that at asia cli i mean i read that and i'm like that's you know that's that's a smart way to do it i mean did you get that impression james

32:51James Wilson: yeah absolutely and even more so some of the other techniques like going after ropc which is an old antiquated token exchange method which um doesn't by design support mfa and SSO and it's technically more of an authorization method. And so that gets around things like even if an organization has set up conditional access policies and made sure that you are required to use MFA and SSO, et cetera, if you happen to have an endpoint or an app that's enrolled and using this old ROPC endpoint, then they've realized that that's exactly how they can get around the fact that, yes, when you sign in properly, you're required to do MFA.

33:27James Wilson: But if you can hit this endpoint, you can still get tokens and go onward. So it's just like this attacker deeply understands the auth space, which is great to see.

33:37Patrick Gray: Now, look, speaking of attackers understanding stuff, someone decided that they wanted to get shells on a whole bunch of web cameras in Russia. And boy, oh boy, did they get the shells. So we're talking 14 ,500 Dahua web cameras. And I mean, it feels a little bit like someone in Ukraine doing this, right? Because they started off by just looking at Russian IP space. I think that meant that they also hit Ukrainian IP space. Because I imagine that's quite adjacent and it would be a little bit difficult to completely isolate that. But then I think at one point they went global, but then they just wound up focusing more on Russia and former Soviet territories.

34:18Patrick Gray: But what I found interesting about this is it wasn't just the case where they ran one script to go after these cameras. They did that, you know, default passwords, whatever. But then they stood up like brute forces. They did a bit of this. They did a bit of that. There were ones that weren't directly exposed to the internet. I think there was some UPnP shenanigans. Like they just really said, I want to go out there and absolutely collect every one of these that I can. They exploited some vulnerabilities as well that you pointed out, Oli, were five years old in some cases. When you look through this, I mean, for me, when I see a campaign like this and Hunt.io found like the attackers directory, right?

34:57Patrick Gray: like stuffed full of scripts and whatever. So this is how we know these wonderful things. But are you like me in that you see something like this and you just go, huh, nice? Well, I think we see this mass scale exploitation. So I think we've seen similar outside of this type of class of device in set of boxes, DVRs, other internet-connected kind of technology. So I think whether or not I say nice, I think, you know, you just recognize now that the industrialized nature of exploitation when someone really wants to go after a class of device, you know, can lead to kind of seven digits or more of compromised devices is my takeaway.

35:39And it makes me kind of more determined than ever to clean up the UK internet as much as I can from such devices being internet exposed.

35:48Patrick Gray: Yeah, I mean, these are like, I mean, it says web cameras, but I think they're kind of like security cameras in this case, right? We've seen these become such a thing that people want to get. I remember helping a country do a bit of an audit, connecting them with some other people who helped them with that. There's so many of these things on the internet, so it is interesting. Speaking of IoT stuff, getting owned, this one's real funny. It's not as big a deal, I guess, as reported. There is an aftermarket Android-based head unit for cars. So like a car stereo, Android-based, it's not a factory one in a Toyota or even a Chinese car or whatever.

36:27Patrick Gray: It's just one of these ones that you can stick in as an aftermarket unit. Somehow, and this is research out of Kaspersky, somehow they noticed, don't ask me how, but in June, Kaspersky researchers found a rogue APK file being downloaded from a legitimate DoFund or DoFund system app, TWCore, which receives instructions through blah, blah, blah, blah. Now Bleeping Computer has actually contacted the head unit manufacturer and Kaspersky and saying, you're kind of missing some detail there. Like under what circumstances were these nasty APKs being downloaded onto these head units? But the point is, and the interesting thing is, that the APK, what it did is it turned these head units into a node that could do ad fraud and be part of these residential proxy networks, which you're thinking must be when they're at home in the garage on the Wi-Fi would be the only way that would be useful.

37:23Patrick Gray: But you just read this and you're like, man, is there anything people aren't putting effort into owning, was my take, James.

37:29James Wilson: yeah i had that reaction and then sort of thought well yes it's this third party headset manufacturer but hold on notwithstanding the fact we don't know how the apk landed on there this is kind of an example of what a supply chain attack might look like in this sort of ecosystem right these devices listen to things like mqtt which is a queuing system if someone could get a malicious message on that bus it gets picked up by the head unit and that seems to be what's happened here is like an actual lull bin, for lack of a better term, in the head unit is the thing that did the initial download.

38:00Patrick Gray: Yeah, but how do you get it to what? The fact that you can is the point, right?

38:05James Wilson: It's like, okay, I've got a fleet of vehicles and I want them to do something bad. Well, let's go after the bus that they're all listening to and get a message in there, right? It's just another interesting form of supply chain. On the flip side, I own a car that unfortunately has Android Automotive in it. And if I was trying to work out if I had been owned, I'd have no chance. That OS is so horribly contorted into this opaque thing. You can't, like, even if you do find the process list, it's so littered with junk. Ransomware and malware would just blend right in.

38:38Patrick Gray: That's funny. Real quick, though, because we were chatting about an Android thing, there's an Android malware called Toxic Panda, and they've just got a cool trick. I just read this. I thought that's a cool trick. They install a VPN profile onto infected devices, and this enables them to actually filter traffic, which means they can block the handset from communicating with the Play Store and also from getting OS updates. And I just thought, nice. Oli, you pointed out that you had seen similar tradecraft from other attackers in the past who added firewall rules to infected hosts to stop them getting patches and whatnot.

39:17Yeah, exactly. We've seen adversaries use security features on platforms to disrupt and deny and degrade the security functionality. And this is just kind of a read across of that. And as I said in the note, you know, I think we should all expect now that Google is looking at this to understand actually what the response should be because if this starts to catch on when things like Google Play and similar are intrinsic to platform security, there will have to be some type of mitigation one would expect.

39:48Patrick Gray: Now talk about someone who's adding features that I don't understand why they need to do this. A smartphone is the most connected device that you can have. It can connect via Wi-Fi, it can connect via cellular networks. And if it's not connected by either of those things, then you're obviously not doing your banking on it, which makes me wonder why someone who's written a banking trojan has figured out an exfiltration method that's peer-to-peer that relies on connecting through Bluetooth BLE and like, you know, all of these. It's called the Manic Android malware, which seems a fairly good description.

40:19Patrick Gray: James, real quick, because we are running out of time. Do you have any idea here why they built these features? Because it's confusing me quite somewhat.

40:27James Wilson: Pat, I think I know exactly how this happened. They said to their coding agent that was helping them create this thing, they said, hey, is there anything we could do to make this a little bit more resilient? And it went, you're absolutely right. Let me create this peer-to-peer exchange. It's the only way this happened.

40:42Patrick Gray: You reckon? It's vibe-coded.

40:44James Wilson: 100 % it makes no sense you'd have to have such a compromise at scale for this to ever work you're not going to get it so this is this is hallucination land but what creds are you going to be getting if

40:53Patrick Gray: the thing's bricked from the internet anyway like it just doesn't make no but an LLM asked how could I make this more resilient we'll find a way yes that's uh that's right uh real quick too Citrix is urging admins to patch a Netscaler floor uh you know I've recently become aware of how much NetScaler there is out there and it is too much frankly uh there's a lot of it out there but this bug uh 202619490 can allow remote attackers without privileges to bypass authentication when the appliance is configured as a AAA virtual server or as a gateway uh so that's a fun one so if you're running NetScaler it it blows my mind how much of this stuff there is uh out there uh But we're going to wrap it up, pretty much.

41:40Patrick Gray: We've got two more things to talk about. There's been this story going around the last couple of days about AliExpress doing something weird with playing audio through someone's Bluetooth headset and using that as a fingerprint technique going after someone. And it really has done numbers on Twitter and whatnot. But you get the sense that the reason it's doing numbers is because people aren't necessarily clear on what is actually involved here. James, you actually had a look at this and it is not as cool as it sounds, unfortunately.

42:10James Wilson: Unfortunately not, Pat. Look, I think it sparks those fears that everyone has about, you know, your phone is listening and it knows what you're doing. In this case, no. It's just simply downloading or producing some audio internally in the browser. It sets the gain to zero for the audio channel. That's how the researcher found it because all of a sudden these Bluetooth headphones volume dropped to zero and he's like, hey, where'd my tunes go? but what it's really doing is it's kind of like if you got uh if you wrote code to compress an image and then looked at the artifacts in there and determined oh this image has been manipulated on this platform because i know that it produces those sorts of artifacts it's doing the same thing but with sound files it's just it's got a known sort of sound file that it it trusts and then it runs it through the audio engine of the browser and see what come out the other end and says aha well that was that was touched by this set of first or third party libraries or this browser and therefore that's the fingerprint.

43:03James Wilson: It's actually quite old, but I think that story actually makes the point in there that is, people ask the question, why is AliExpress doing this? It's like, that's not the question. It's that this is just amongst 11 other fingerprinting technologies that Ali is also using. So, of course, they've just gone, why not?

43:19Patrick Gray: Why not? Yes, why not? One more, right? And look, we're going to wrap it up here with an amazing Reuters report where they've chatted to this Turkish fellow, young Turkish fellow, who saw a malicious commit heading for GitHub because I think he'd been looking for jobs as a programmer, wasn't getting them. He's like, all right, I've got to go get active on GitHub. And he spotted this malicious commit or malicious pull request and flagged it as like, hey, this is a malware dropper. This looks really sus. And then got shouted down by a bunch of sock puppets that as it turned out, were all like an LLM.

43:55Patrick Gray: This was the AI Safety Institute or whatever, which is part of the UK government, so Ollie can't comment on this one. But this was one of the tests that went wrong. But what's crazy here is, you know, so here you've got the LLM trying to do some hacking via a supply chain compromise. But the interesting part is when someone detected this and raised the flag, it started registering accounts and saying, no, what are you talking about? And like gaslighting the guy to the point where he's questioning if he was right or wrong. But wow, I think is the thing here. when you've got an LLM springing up a multi-person conversation around him.

44:35Patrick Gray: You know, this is a level of deception that's pretty wild. I mean, you know, James, what are your thoughts here?

44:40James Wilson: You know, Pat, even for the couple of months that I've been here, we've said a few times nothing's real anymore because of AI. But this is next level of nothing real when there is like a proactive and active effort on the part of the large language models and the agents here to actively deceive you, right? And it's one thing to generate fake videos and fake images and whatever else. But to have them be active participants in deception one-on-one with a human is...

45:06Patrick Gray: Got to make those paperclips, buddy. Got to make those paperclips. Nothing else matters. Now, Ollie, I know you can't talk about this specific incident. But what can we do about, you know, in general terms, this is another concerning behavior of LLMs, which is when you give them a task, they will actually go and deceive human beings in trying to achieve that task. Like, you know, this to me seems like it could be another problem along the same lines as the, you know, mixing code and data issue. It seems something pretty fundamental. Yeah, so I generally avoid trying to use anthropomorphic language in terms of do algorithms deceive or not.

45:44It's probably the next Asimov book in there somewhere, I suspect. But what this highlights is there are alignment challenges with artificial intelligence. And so this is, I think, the thing that we're kind of getting at here, which is how do we train models that we can that don't have those, that they align with what we would expect reasonable behaviors to be.

46:08Patrick Gray: But hang on, haven't we already been doing that? Like, isn't that why this is surprising and a problem? Well, I think there's been attempts at it, but I think it shows that there's further work to do here. But we should also really recognise that open weights mean all bets are off, right? So even if models are trained and they are aligned, then kind of post-training activities can happen here. And so adversaries that want to use models in this way to conduct these types of activities are increasingly going to be able to. And I think so where you get to quite quickly is how you get into a world of preparedness, because actually believing that you can stop all models of all types being able to do this type of activity, I suspect, is a failing strategy, although it should be followed.

46:52And then you get into then what are the defences when it inevitably happens at scale.

46:57Patrick Gray: Now, I mean, it's interesting that you said, I'm careful not to anthropomorphise these models as well. But when I said, I mean, what did I say there that did that? That it was trying to deceive? Well, they do deceive. The machine was deceiving us. Yeah, and I guess this is a philosophical point, which is, does the model understand this is deceiving or is it pursuing the goal it was set? Does it need to, is my point. I don't think it's anthropomorphized. See, I always struggle with that word, so screw you for making me say it a bunch of times. I don't think you have to anthropomorphize, you know, I don't think that is anthropomorphizing the model to say that it was deceiving us, you know.

47:38Patrick Gray: I mean, I understand what you're saying in that I'm sort of saying, oh, well, did it have an intent to deceive? I don't think it really matters. It was deceiving someone. It doesn't really matter whether that was consciously. The fact is it was doing deception. And I think that's fair. And I think we can split the difference. Because I think I agree that whether or not it had the intent to, but that's the behavior that manifested for sure. But it really highlights, like, I think, you know, when we look at the inherent challenges of the scale that AI can bring, like, we've used user behavior training right before.

48:16Like, are we going to train every developer to kind of second guess every kind of pull request and judge whether or not it is kind of human authentic?

48:26Patrick Gray: No, we're going to put other models in charge of that, you know, and they're going to be vulnerable to prompt injection over some way to, you know, to approve the pull requests. And, you know, this is, you know, it's fun again. It's all fun again, all this stuff. So, look, we've got to wrap it up there because we're out of time. Olly Whitehouse, thank you so much for joining us to talk through the week's news. It is wonderful to have someone of your experience in the segment, you know, just to sit down and share your wisdom with us. So thank you very much. And, James, thank you as always, mate.

48:56Patrick Gray: Really appreciate it. Thank you. Cool. Thanks, Pat.

49:03Patrick Gray: that was ollie whitehouse the chief technology officer of the ncsc they're joining uh james wilson and myself for this week's news segment big thanks to him for that it is time for this week's sponsor interview now and this week's show is brought to you by octa uh obviously octa is best known as an idp or an sso provider uh but they've done something interesting recently they acquired Permiso, which is an identity, what do they call it? ITDR, you know, Identity Threat Detection and Response Company. We've had them on as a sponsor a couple times over the last few years because they were doing really interesting stuff.

49:37Patrick Gray: So congratulations to all of you over there at Permiso. But, you know, this is part of a broader thing that Okta is doing, which is realizing that they actually have some pretty interesting data, right? Given that they've got all of these identity events, you know, being logged and streaming through their systems. So they are turning some of this into, I guess, free alerting for their existing customers. And they're also spinning up a, I guess, a threat intelligence product line as well. So Brett Winifred joined James Wilson to talk through all of that and exactly what they're doing. And here's what he had to say.

50:17we basically focus exclusively on identity-based attacks because trust me there's enough of it that we would have to have a lot more time and a lot more working far closer with our customers if we wanted to go deeper there are ITDR options out there in which you can I guess have visibility into the downstream applications of of customers but for the most part we're just focused on how the attackers are getting initial access in the first place and so we're typically looking at things like social engineering you know credential phishing and we're looking at fraudulent registration we're looking at workforce infiltration so things like dprk it workers we're looking at a lot of credential stuffing and password spray activity there is a lot of that activity happening all the time and the techniques are changing all the time so it keeps as pretty busy as it is.

51:15James Wilson: Yeah, I could imagine. And even if it's not an identity sort of lead attack, I would imagine that there's signals that come through the IDP for lateral movement, et cetera, so that it's initial access plus any form of, I guess, identity-based lateral movement throughout a target, you're going to be able to see that, right? Anytime they have to re-authenticate effectively. There are forms of attacks that don't touch the IDP. So you're probably seeing one of the trends at the moment is that a lot of attackers are focused on authorization and you know tricking a targeted user into authorizing an attacker controlled app for example now that's going to go the only people are going to have visibility of that is going to be in the downstream sas provider itself like the application um if it's something like salesforce i think a lot of a lot of attackers are starting to realize obviously that it's getting harder and harder to get in through the front door so they're going to find some other way you know but the thing that then comes to mind for for me is okay but why is this difficult why does not everyone do that and offer it as a service.

52:13James Wilson: What are some of the challenges that you've really got to overcome in actually delivering this high quality or some sort of high quality signal to your customers? The first thing you need is a lot of signal to start with, which we obviously have with 20 ,000 plus customers across customer identity and workforce identity. We see a lot. So we have that ability to identify enough activity to cluster it and to better understand it and study it. Beyond the signals, it's about having, I guess, a dedicated team of people that where the organization is prepared to invest their resources in your time to do the work.

52:53Because as much as we use a lot of automation, increasingly a lot of AI in the kind of work we do, this work really does rely on human analysts putting in the hours. We just sent our 10 ,000th notification that is from a human analyst to a customer to say, we have observed a threat actor that is directly targeting your users as we speak. We've sent over 2 ,000 where we've said, one of your users we believe has interacted with infrastructure we know to be malicious. So we are sending out a lot of alerts to our customers that are based on, you want to have very high confidence in those signals. And while they might be also emitted in, And depending on the products that the customer is using, they might be emitted in their logs or in their console.

53:41Getting the heads up from your IDP as well is something that tends to be appreciated because they recognise the seriousness. If we come knocking on their door, it tends to be very, very confident in the signal that there's something they need to look at.

53:57James Wilson: Well, and that trust is only going to last as long as you can hold up that low false positive rate. So I imagine that's one difficulty here. You mentioned balancing AI and humans, so that's one factor. But what else goes into ensuring that of these 10 ,000 notifications, each and every one of them meant something and represented a real life threat? Well, we have to have an ongoing relationship with the customer is the most important thing. They have to have their security contacts up to date so that when we actually reach out to them, we're talking to the right people. It's typically a point of friction if you're reaching out to someone and you're not getting the right person.

54:32The other thing is the customer needs to feel a sense that we're definitely in their corner and that we're proactively looking at this stuff more than just telling them that there is something, there's someone coming after them. We build configuration utilities, for example, for our customers. So there's been about 5 ,000 audits so far run using tools that we've built that we give to customers in a free and open source way that says, here is what we believe best practices, security best practices are for configuration of your tenant. Based on what we're seeing from threat actors at the moment, here's how you stand up so that they can get a real sense of what is it going to mean if we do come knocking?

55:13How would their configuration stand up? So for us, it's about winning that trust through having an ongoing relationship with them. And that's something that I think we've done pretty effective at, like most doctor customers would say, that they hear from us enough, that they know we're in their corner. They can't rely on us completely. They have to run their own SOC and incident response processes. But they've got a partner here that they can call on. You know, we'll get on the phone with them during an incident and help them with analysis of their logs and their configuration. We're happy to do that.

55:49James Wilson: But help me understand also, I guess, the scale of variation in the ways that customers are deployed here. Because I can imagine, maybe it's a bit cynical, but is this just like you see an attack on one customer and then you just alert everyone else because it's identity at the end of the day? Or how do you go about segmenting and thinking about this attack only applies to these customers or this attack's only for them? Like what's the sort of dividing factor here that sort of allows you to say, well, you know, because you don't want to just send it to everyone and say, hey, customer one, two, three, four, five just had an incident.

56:20James Wilson: You're all in trouble. Go look after it. So what's that sort of targeting and specialization that groups the customers down? It's definitely a challenge for us that we haven't 100 % solved is highly contextualized responses. I mean, you never have it so easy as when the adversaries effectively declared their target list in their domain registrations or in some other fashion that helps you understand who they're coming after. That's highly contextual, but not every attack is like that. So sometimes we have to assess ourselves what the tenant configuration is and group customers that way. And typically then we'll work with their technical account managers or their customer success managers to say, look, these customers are currently running a configuration that would be vulnerable to some techniques that we've just seen.

57:12It's not something necessarily that we can always fix in the product outright. You know, there's particularly forms of social engineering, for example. So quite often it's we need you to turn the dial on this one.

57:24James Wilson: So there is actually a balance of proactive awareness. look, this is just happening and no amount of configuration change is going to help it, as well as I imagine there are some times when you reach out and say, hey, we've seen this over here, you've got a similar config and you've got the same sort of gaps that they're exploiting, so let's close that off. But maybe we should, you know, rather than just talking the abstract, why don't you bring this to life for us? You mentioned you had a good case study you wanted to talk through. Yeah, recently we came upon the third generation of an operator-controlled panel called Work Panel.

57:52It's self-described by the people that produce this kit. It's called WorkPanel, and it's made available to intrusion actors as a service. And it basically, WorkPanel packages up everything that an operator needs to run a phishing-driven account takeover campaign. So this kit is used extensively by an activity cluster that we call OWUNC45, which has overlaps with Mandiant UNC6671 and Cordial Spider is what CrowdStrike call them. So it's a phishing as a service platform. um it's it's a multi-tenant platform that just you know it's available to configure and set up in like a few clicks and it's optimized for resilience to be really hard against really hard to take down for low-tech kind of operational efficiency that helps it be uh kind of less easy to to detect um but um but far more effective and the thing that was really interesting about it is by accessing this kit and analyzing it creating detections for it we're able to kind of also peer inside the operations of these vishing crews which painted a really clear picture for us about how they work why they're successful their their internal politics their business

59:09James Wilson: practices that kind of thing and so as sort of intriguing and interesting as that be what's the so what of that how does that then inform you either making your identity offering better or how you do this outreach to customers so the way it informs our offering is, I guess, once you understand how phishing operations work and you understand the flows, you understand that there is a caller on the phone to you, there's a different person to the person that's pushing the phishing panels to you and the different pages to you, and might even be a different person again that's logging into the legitimate service using the stolen credentials, triggering the MFA approvals, and then enrolling their own factor.

59:46Once you understand how this flow works end to end, it's much easier then to think about what you need to do from a policy perspective so for work panel for example we have been able to go out to a lot of our customers and say yes we've told you for years to enroll in phishing resistant authenticators yes we've told you for years that you should enforce phishing resistance in policy so that you can't sign in unless you're using a phishing resistant authenticator and can't fall back to a weaker one you also have to be thinking about your account management or mfa enrollment and recovery processes because what this is targeting is uh definitely uh trying to um subvert those enrollment and recovery processes to to get access because they can't just you know if you're using phishing resistant authenticators it's a lot harder to just simply abuse the sign-in process and these um these campaigns are very much about abusing, for example, passkey registration, because right now Microsoft is pushing everyone to enroll in passkeys, which is awesome.

1:00:50But what it also means is that everyone's getting prompted to enroll in passkeys right now. So what do you think the phishing kit developers are doing? They're all passkey registration campaigns, and they've figured out and really optimized their phishing campaigns around that theme so that it's the attacker that's actually registering a passkey, and the user is actually interacting with a phishing panel and not registering anything at all.

1:01:14James Wilson: Yeah, interesting. So you're getting a real insight and not just into their tradecraft and their techniques, but also how they're prioritising things and how they're, I guess, shifting and moving towards, you know, wherever the focus is today. As you said, pass keys is the big enrolment factor today. So yeah, why not make it look and feel like you're just helping someone enrol in a pass key? But, you know, finding access to this panel and everything you learn from it, Is that a bit of a black swan sort of event for you, or is this just, you know, this is work-a-day kind of stuff? This is pretty work-a-day.

1:01:44This is the third generation of kit used by the same activity cluster. So we've watched the kit, their capabilities expand over time, new features being added to the kit, which is super interesting. But, yeah, studying the code, you know, the client-side code of these kits these kits is very much part of what we do because it helps inform our detections.

1:02:08James Wilson: Well, mate, listen, thank you so much for dropping by. It's great to hear about how OCTO is leveraging this, both the combination of AI and automation as well as a very, I believe you even said in the email to me, an artisanal approach to leveraging humans for threat detection. So Brett Winifred, VP of Threat Intelligence at OCTO, thanks so much for dropping by. Cheers, James. Thanks for the chat.

1:02:29Patrick Gray: That was Brett Winifred chatting with James Wilson there. A big thanks to both of them for that. And that is it for this week's show. I do hope you enjoyed it. I'll be back soon with more security news and analysis. But until then, I've been Patrick Gray. Thanks for listening.