#406: 16-Yr-Old Murders 98-Yr-Old Woman To SA Her Corpse For 2 Hours While Recording

26:12She doesn't really have too many friends. She doesn't really attend church or join any of the other communities, but I never saw her as confused. She was very sharp even at her old age, 98. I don't think that she would have wandered anywhere unless she recently woke up and became confused, but I don't know if that happens like that. The next neighbor the police talk to ends up coming to them. A woman is waiting at the lobby of the police station. She can't even sit still. She seems very nervous. I walk my dog in that area. My mother, who is also around that age, but very elderly, she lives nearby.

26:44So this whole case hits closer to home for me. And I just keep thinking about Margaret out at night, freezing in the cold. Anyway, I thought I would just drive around hoping to find her myself. But I saw these two guys sitting in the area, like loitering. Do you remember what they look like in their 50s? I don't really remember. But I know that one of them looked a lot younger than the other one. I remember that. They said it was foul play that Margaret is a nice person that didn't deserve that and I was like where are they getting this information? Look, I watch a lot of cop shows and I'm kind of into missing persons cases and stuff.

27:16I thought they were concerning. They were suspicious. The police take her account and continue with the investigation. But a day after Margaret is reported missing, it's clear that she did not wander anywhere. Howard, her nephew, Margaret's nephew, is searching Margaret's entire house for the second time. and there's a few things that Margaret would never leave the house with. Even in a state of confusion, she always brings her favorite coat in the colder months and all year round, she wears her favorite shoes, her favorite sneakers. So the first time they searched the house, Howard's wife Cindy found Margaret's favorite coat.

27:49This is in April in Ohio, so it's still pretty cold outside, but maybe she was so confused that she didn't take the coat. Howard opens up that little closet again and it's messier than usual. It looks like someone took all the clothes that were hanging and just pulled them down and then let them sit on the ground. Let them fall to the floor. He starts rummaging around on the floor and he's like, what is that? He grabs it. It's cold. It's a vacuum handle. It's very messy in there. He's digging and he comes across Margaret's favorite shoe. Then he finds the other shoe. Her favorite shoes are in here and both of them are still attached to Margaret.

28:19She is dead. She has been strangled, stuffed into this tiny closet with her head on the ground and the rest of her body upwards because it's a very small closet. Her underwear is completely torn, ripped off of her body. Her bra is pushed up, exposing her chest. And her nightgown is all the way open. So it's not even just murder. I mean, there seems to be a huge sexual element here. Whoever killed Margaret likely did it for sexual reasons. The oddest piece of this evidence that they gather once they find Margaret's body is the main clue. A jar of blackberry jam that's left in the living room. and it looks used, but not for intended purposes, not for toast.

29:03The Blackberry jam will have been used to commit acts of necrophilia. Testing would reveal male DNA inside the Blackberry jam bottle because it was used as lubricant. The friend that calls to alert Margaret's family that Margaret is missing, he had stopped by to check up on her and says that she didn't answer the door. This guy's name is David. David had grown up near Margaret with Margaret and her late husband, and he actually morphed into a friend and a caretaker than just a fellow resident. Recently, he moved away. And now that Margaret is found murdered, he's not answering the police's phone calls.

29:38They can't get in contact with David, which is alarming because maybe he did something to her. So as authorities are going in and out of the house to look for any signs of foul play, they just keep seeing this guy lurking around, hands in his pockets watching them. I'm sorry, can we help you? Well, I used to live in this neighborhood and I just wanted to see what was going on. I guess also I'm concerned. I used to know Margaret and, you know, I would visit a lot and sometimes help her around the house. And I bet, I bet all my fingerprints are all over in that house. I'm sorry, what was your name again?

30:10David? This is the guy that they're looking for just lingering around the crime scene. what they bring him into the police station and after a pretty lengthy interrogation as well as a dna test david is ruled out as a suspect it appears that his care for margaret was miscommunicated the police realize no this guy is actually just a friend of margaret's and he's trying to do his own little investigation basically so it's not david then what's the other motive i mean what motive do you does anybody have to kill a 98 year old woman perhaps a will she doesn't have kids but maybe she has relatives that would financially benefit from her death.

30:47Primarily a nephew, Howard, the one that found her body and his wife, Cindy, are pretty close to her. Howard and Cindy. But when authorities look into it, nobody has power of attorney over Margaret. She doesn't have a will. Financially speaking, nobody was going to benefit from her death. Cindy, Margaret's niece, tells investigators, Margaret bothered no one. That's why it's just so horrible. The detective is calmly watching her as she breaks down. I'm sorry. I'm just, it's emotional because she wouldn't even harm a flea. Then they talked to Howard, the nephew, and he talks about finding Margaret's body.

31:23And he said, it didn't register at first. You know, the shoe he was looking for was attached to Margaret. He didn't even connect the dots. He says, I couldn't pick up the shoe. And I'm thinking, what's holding the shoe? So I took and I grabbed another piece of clothing. and I threw it back. I've never seen this before in my life. I touched it. It was cold. It felt clammy. It felt like styrofoam to me. So I moved it and then I moved another piece of clothing and that's when I felt a part of her leg and it felt like the same thing. Styrofoam, cold, clammy. And I'm thinking, why does she have styrofoam in here?

31:55What is this? Then it hit me. That's basically when we left the house in a hurry. I've never seen, I mean, I'm sure you guys deal with it all the time, but I've never. I mean, to me, it didn't look like flesh or skin. It's pretty obvious when you hear Howard and Cindy talk about Margaret that they would never hurt Margaret. Obviously, they are still ruled out by DNA, but there is an interesting clue left in the 911 call when Howard reports Margaret missing. He calls 911. Hi, my aunt lives on Portage Street. A friend of ours stopped over there yesterday to check up on her and she was nowhere to be found.

32:28We didn't know if you guys found anybody that was perhaps wandering? No, we don't have any reports of anybody wandering. Well, we can't find her anywhere in the house. We went into the house, looked around the whole place. We couldn't find her and we just don't know where she is. She's 98 years old and she lived there all by herself. Yes, she lives there all by herself. And what's her name? Margaret Douglas. And she never locks her doors. The same detectives are working another case, a string of carjackings in the area. That's why they're bringing in 17 year old Gavin to tell them what happened to the man whose car he jacked after meeting up on Grindr.

33:04Gavin is sitting there sandwiched between the male cop and his mom and the female cop is asking him the questions. And the female detective is still again saying, you know, we've got a lot going on in the neighborhood lately and probably more than the general public is even aware of. More than one incident. Gavin's mom is nodding along. I'm sure. Wow. Yes. Okay. Unfortunately, we're trying to see if, you know, they're all related. Right, right. Later, the officers ask them what they think should happen to Margaret's killer, since the case is all anyone is talking about in the area right now, and they just live like five houses down.

33:37What do you think should happen to somebody like that? Gavin responds, that kills someone? Kills a 98-year-old woman. I don't know. I think eye for an eye is the best way to go. My mom was saying she thinks two things it could be, like a grandson or nephew, because, you know, my brother's friend, his dad works at some county and he was saying like in her will, they were all getting like money and stuff. So he was saying like one of the grandkids or nephews or I don't know, even someone in the family, but they could have done that to get money or just some junkie in Wadsworth, which would not surprise me.

34:09The police will later ask Gavin's mom, when was the most recent time that your son got in trouble, mom? Because Gavin's always in trouble with the law. Even at 16 years old, he had a felony. He has not had any freedom at all. I mean, he literally goes to work and home probably for the past three months because he makes bad choices. And we're just, you know, we don't want that for our kids. So he literally has no life and he had snuck up before. I just recently moved his bedroom downstairs close to mine with his younger brother so that I can keep an eye out on it. And you know, it's terrible, but I did it.

34:38And it's still, it's not enough. It's been a few months since he's had any freedom. Gavin admits that he does sneak out and rummage through cars here and there, but he never really takes anything of value. It's just, he goes inside the car and looks and the police ask and you don't take anything not even change or anything maybe like 50 cents but i've other than that seriously nothing so he said he breaks into people's car to look yes not to steal money no well that's even more scary gavin's mom is super upset she's rolling her eyes turning i mean what would you do if someone did that to my car you'd be upset.

35:16It's so upsetting and scary. I understand mom, but it really is their own fault for not locking their doors. What did he just say? There's a massive global company that most of us have likely never heard of. It's called Celebrite. They're a digital forensics company that primarily works with law enforcement from around the world. It basically takes all the data from a phone, like the things you thought you deleted, and it helps officers get an idea of what you're doing. It can even pull location information from apps to try and get a general idea of your movements, as well as pattern recognition.

35:50You can type in a keyword and it'll search the entire phone going through search history, messages, videos, folders, everything, even deleted data, which gives the officers a comprehensive look at all the times this phone has talked about insurance fraud, for example. They can typically even pull pin numbers and passwords or even the pattern locks. Like, you know how some phones do the pattern locks? They can pull those, which would be the perfect thing to use in Gavin's case. He told authorities that he told the 50-year-old man on Grindr that he was underage. The 50-year-old man still wanted to see him.

36:24That's why he carjacked him. But all those messages are deleted because he deleted the Grindr app and he doesn't remember which one of his fake emails he used to create his profile because he has a thousand different emails for YouTube. For YouTube? He says for creating different YouTube accounts. it would greatly benefit Gavin if they can find all that because at least they can present this information to the judge he's still likely going to get charged with carjacking but still now they need to get Gavin's mom's permission because he's underage she's the parent she's the one paying for the phone and Gavin's mom tells authorities when she hands over the phone you know it is what it is whatever they find I pray to god there's nothing too horrible in there it will be worse than horrible the day that Margaret goes missing there's increased police presence in the area.

37:09They just found Margaret's body like a day later, but nobody knows that she's been killed or anything to the public. There's just more police. That day, Gavin's mom texts him. They're looking for someone. He responds, well, that's Wadsworth for you. Then he immediately Googles Wadsworth police reports. Margaret Douglas, Margaret Douglas dead. Margaret Douglas, Wadsworth, Ohio. Body found in Wadsworth, Ohio. Latest update on Wadsworth murder. Then deletes the search history. That is crazy. At the time of the search, Again, it's not public information that she passed away or that she was murdered.

37:42She's 98. One would assume that she was not murdered. Yeah. One quick search for passwords shows two interesting ones. The first being Gavin had set up a password to an account and the password is I like kids. So that's great. Then the next password of interest. Gavin had this locked folder on his phone filled with media files. So videos, pictures, live photos. It's an iPhone. and the folder name is dark and the password to that is murder inside the folder a bunch of media files the first video is of margaret asleep in her living room and they're recording from inside the house it's not through the window she's laying on the couch she's clearly alive she briefly moves her hand to scratch her face did you see the this one there is um it's in the case files that I received from the police department, but obviously the other ones are not.

38:37Then there's a live photo of Margaret lying down on her side. Her right eye is partially open. Her mouth is open and there is blood on her tongue and lips. She is not moving in the second long live photo. On her neck, there's a gloved hand holding onto her throat. She is dead. Then another live photo, this time of Margaret laying on her back. She has been posed in a sexual manner and the description reads, in the picture Margaret's nightgown is open and her bra is pushed up to her neck. The back of a clear plastic gloved left hand is seen pushing against the left side of her breast. Her mouth is open and shows fresh injuries to her face.

39:17So someone is touching her chest and posing her sexually. The next photo appears to focus on her right breast. Then the next video is about 16 seconds long And it shows Gavin using Margaret's deceased hand With purple blackberry jam on there To pleasure his private parts So he's taking Margaret's hand Covering it in jelly And then using it on his private area And near the end of the 16 second video He inserts a digit into Margaret's body parts A finger Then another photo This time Margaret's position so that the focus of the photo is on her lower private parts. Then another, a plastic gloved hand, is holding onto her bottom.

40:03After killing Margaret, Gavin stayed in her house from 2.09am to 4.10am to perform these necrophilic acts. He does not fully essay her corpse, but this would still be considered necrophilia. In most of the files in the folder, Margaret is either nude or partially nude and you can see the gloves that Gavin is wearing that night. There is no video of him actually killing Margaret because it's likely he had to use both hands to strangle her. Medical evidence indicates that it would have taken her several minutes to die. He killed someone that is 81 years older than him. A 98-year-old woman. She made it through 98 years and it's the teenager down the street to, what, engage in necrophilic acts and document the whole thing?

40:49Why? The police rush to arrest Gavin in his house and the officer asks him, did you know i'd be coming to see you after we got your phone i figured as soon as i heard the knock on the door i honestly if my boots were tied i think i would have ran once they bring him into the same interrogation room this time he's much more distraught so his first interrogation was like a week before and now he's brought back in because they go through his phone and it's all connected wait so the first time interviewing they didn't know what he did no but this time they came for that now where was the mother when when the door was knocking like when they came for him she was in the house she knows it's pertaining to margaret she doesn't know what they found on his phone and this interrogation she's not in the room she's in the lobby okay so she has some some clue but i don't think she understood it's gonna be necrophilia abuse of a corpse right right maybe she is trying to justify like some sort of crazy thing in her head yeah and he's in the interrogation room he can't even sit still he's crying he goes from sitting on the chair to rocking back and forth to full-on laying on the ground in a fetal position, the female detective comes up and puts her hand on his back to soothe him.

42:01It's an interrogation technique. I'm upset. That's what Gavin says. I know. Telling me about it isn't going to give you much relief. It doesn't change the fact that I ruined my life. He's on his back on the ground crying. We can't go back and change that, Gavin. I know. At this point, we just have to figure out what's going on with you, okay? And you didn't take anything from Margaret's house, right? Like I said before, it doesn't make a difference either way. I mean, what other crime could I commit that would really matter at this point? Which side note, I do see people upset that the female detective is showing him so much quote-unquote grace, but I think in this case she's just doing her job.

42:41She's getting a confession regardless of the evidence, the confession is more likely to get a just verdict from the jury. To hear someone, especially a minor, say what they did, how they did it, and why they did it, that's almost always going to help the victim's case. That's what the officer is trying to do here. During the interrogation, the audio is quite difficult to hear and it's not particularly insightful. The only time Gavin gets emotional is again when he realizes what kind of trouble he's going to be in. He tells authorities that he's never been inside Margaret's house except when he went to kill her.

43:11He thought he was going out that night to go through some unlocked cars, but instead he saw Margaret sleeping through her home window. He tries her back door. It was unlocked. He says if it was locked, he wouldn't have gone in. He walks in, records her sleeping, but as he was getting closer, he tripped on the chair and she woke up screaming. He claims he didn't know what to do, but he saw Margaret reach for her phone. So he strangled her and she knows him. She knows that's the kid five houses down. He killed her. And then he proceeded to stay for the next few hours committing acts of necrophilia.

43:42You see how none of that adds up. He says it's a crime of passion, but suddenly an opportunity to engage in some of the most depraved acts on the planet. They ask, have you talked to Margaret before? I mean, I think we discussed this a couple of times, but just this one time when I was 13 or 14, I was going to shovel driveways and stuff, you know, when I was actually doing something good with my life. So when she died, was she on the couch or on the floor? The floor. Were you on top of her then? Kind of. Like straddling her? Yeah. Did you use one hand or both? Both. And did you squeeze it or push her against the floor or both?

44:18Both. And you said you don't remember if she was bleeding at that point. The only reason I can think of her bleeding is when I put my hand over her mouth. Okay, so when you're holding your hand over her mouth, you might have pushed too hard and made her nose bleed. Yeah. Were you in her house for a little while before you woke her up? like I came up into the porch and I didn't even know what I was going to do. And I looked in the window and everything. I don't know. I felt like I was, I just felt like going into the house. It was like the biggest adrenaline rush I could get, I guess. So then I tried the doorknob and that just happened to be unlocked.

44:51He talks about after killing Margaret, he shoved Margaret's body into the closet all by himself and quote, he's stronger than he looks. So earlier you said that he applied to work at? A funeral home. A funeral home. Was he working there already or he applied? He applied, but they did not hire him. When did he apply? Before this killing or after? Before. Okay, that says a lot, right? A little while before. Right, okay. The police asked him, that night you were at Margaret's, have you drank or smoked anything, done any drugs that night? No, I was actually sober that night, which is another reason why I smoke and drink because I can't handle myself when I'm sober.

45:31I can't like comprehend. I don't even know how the word goes. My thoughts when I'm sober are dark. When I'm high, they're like good thoughts. Have you ever thought about harming anyone before or taking someone's life before? Not like planning it out, but like, oh, I'm so mad I could kill someone right now, like that kind of thing. But you never imagined yourself actually doing it. No, I could never envision myself. I mean, I've wondered what killing someone would feel like, but I've also wondered what jumping off a building would feel like. So it's not like anything was premeditated. Gavin explains that he has thoughts of self-exiting, but he never could do it because it was too evil for his family.

46:07His mom would not be able to handle it. Gavin would even text his best friend, Brayden, about these thoughts and feelings about life. The text would read, I've been doing some light research, and I'm not saying that I have this or whatever, but shit, like this is an actual disorder. Pretty much caused by wires in your brain being wired the wrong way, if that makes sense. Hopefully it's not like that, but I guess I don't really care if it is or not. I believe every person is made the way they are for a reason Whether they're as pure as God or as evil as the devil It's who they're supposed to be I think it's like that So that there's a balance between good and bad in the world But what did he say?

46:43How is his brain wired? He never describes, but he thinks he's pure evil Gavin tells authorities that he spends every day Getting high on weed, stimulants Drinking a fifth of alcohol per day That's about 17 shots of hard liquor per day That's a fifth of alcohol he says his biggest obsession though you know i will tell you the symptoms you tell me what drugs this is when this drug kicks in it's a sense of euphoria it almost feels like you have increased energy and strength it feels like you could probably lift a car if you get punched in the face you might not even feel the pain until way later you feel practically invincible you feel like a rush.

47:23Do you know what drug that is? Alcohol? Adrenaline. Gavin says he's addicted to adrenaline. What? He says the adrenaline is the only thing that makes me feel like I'm even alive. Did you go into the house initially just to steal something? Honestly, all I did was I just wanted the adrenaline rush. Oh, just going into the house? Yeah, I think that's why I broke into cars and stuff. It's that risk factor. All I've ever done is take risks because that's the only thing that makes me feel. So that's your drug. Adrenaline? Yeah, I don't know. Like nothing feels wrong with me when I have adrenaline. It's like everything's all right.

48:03You feel alive. Like there's meaning, right? I don't know about meaning, but it feels different. Like I don't know how to explain it. He's telling the cops that. Yeah. Any bad stuff about you goes away? I guess. So your whole intention of going into the house was just the adrenaline of being in somebody's house? Yeah, I didn't want to rob the house. Okay, so it's just the sneaky thrill of can I get into somebody's house and get out and get away with it? Yeah, but if the door was locked, I would have just walked away. The whole breaking into the house was the adrenaline part. I think I didn't even have a grip on reality.

48:36Whenever I did that, I didn't even know whose house it was at first until as for his motive he claims his whole motive was adrenaline and then margaret woke up and he felt panicked he had to kill her but then why did he commit the acts of necrophilia he says it's not even like that is this like the first time we ever heard somebody talk about adrenaline yeah in this type of scenario yes um in this scenario yes typically you will hear adrenaline in serial killers. It's, yeah. They're kind of addicted to that too. Yes. I mean, I think that a lot of people are addicted to adrenaline and that's why you have people who are heavily invested in skydiving all the time or they're chasing certain thrills.

49:24It's just varying degrees of addiction. This seems more of like the serial killer addiction to the thrill aspect. I think it's tied to the fact that they're doing something that they shouldn't do and they get off on that. But he's very angry when the acts of necrophilia are even brought up. He's angry about being accused of this whole crime committed for the purpose of SA, but he can't explain anything further. Like he can't explain why it makes him so angry or anything else. And I don't know if this has anything to do with adrenaline, but it does later come out to the authorities that Gavin would chase his siblings around with knives when he was younger.

50:00He'd be like 10 years old, chasing them around with a knife. Regardless, he keeps stating it's adrenaline. Adrenaline is why he committed the crime. And the officers are not convinced. They tell him, we know that you were wearing gloves. And we found one of the gloves that you were wearing and there was purple stuff on it. They ask him, what was the purple stuff that was on it? Gavin looks very embarrassed. The officers already know what the purple stuff is. The officer pushes. I get it. There's like this whole piece of this that you don't understand why you do. But the purple stuff, it's the whole sexual piece.

50:31No? the purple stuff was that jelly. I don't even know where it came into play. Did you maybe use it as some kind of lubricant for something? Is this the part that you're just embarrassed in your own mind? You know what I mean? None of this is okay. Gavin is saying that. Well, I'm saying we understand that it's an embarrassing part. We're not sure if it's you don't understand or if it's just embarrassing. It's something that I don't understand, I guess. you didn't have any sex with her did you he shakes his head no but you put the jelly on the glove and is that when you used her hand to rub your private parts he covers his face yeah was it at the same time that you were taking some of those pictures yeah like like what is this that's when the shock set in yeah it's like what am i doing There's a couple of videos of you peeking over the edge of the couch and videotaping her.

51:31When was all of that done? That was the same night. He puts his head in his hands. Why did I lie about anything? This is so stupid. Throughout the interrogation, he claims multiple times that he never took Margaret's red wallet that's missing. It is later found in his drawer, shoved next to a bottle of Hollister cologne that he stole from another grinder carjacking. It appears he took Margaret's wallet and those photos and videos of her as some sort of trophy. The police talked to Gavin's friends and they talked to Maddie. This is a fake name. This is Gavin's on and off girlfriend. And she's sitting there confused.

52:07And she's explaining this whole situation where she was sitting with a girlfriend of hers. Let's call her Rachel. And Rachel is telling her what Gavin said about her. Rachel is like, hey, your boyfriend said this about you. And she's like, who even says that? Rachel is explaining, remember that night we went to the movies? Well, while we were at the movies, Gavin, I don't recall if you went to the restroom or you went to go grab popcorn, but Gavin was talking about how he wouldn't even care if someone came in and held a gun up to your head. He said, quote, if someone came in here and pointed a gun at Maddie's head right now, I wouldn't do anything.

52:44I would not do anything. I would just watch. Maddie and Rachel are like, what does that even mean? What is going on with this guy? I mean, nobody's expecting a 17-year-old to suddenly become a Navy SEAL, but also, you're not going to do anything. Why are you even telling someone this? The way Maddie describes it to the police is, Gavin seemed like he was finally getting better with his life, but for whatever reason, reason unclear to everyone else, he got swept up in the wrong path. That's how she describes it. She would go at 3 a.m. to check his Snapchat location on the phone, because you can share it with friends.

53:16He'd be out breaking curfew. He'd be in the middle of nowhere at 3 a.m. Gavin and Maddie had known each other since they were in the first grade, but recently started dating. And she just tells police there's just so much more to it. She says, quote, We're all in this group chat, and Gavin said once that he could kill someone and not feel anything. But he wasn't going to kill someone because he knew that it was wrong. Maddie says that she was speechless, but she thought maybe it's a joke. She texts him back, you would never do that. He says, yeah, I know. Which, okay, maybe he's just trying to be edgy.

53:48That's what she thought. But then Gavin's co-worker, Hillary, another fake name from the pizza shop, she says Gavin would always tell her at work that he's never actually happy, that he just is faking it, when in fact he feels empty on the inside. He would tell her about his plans to catfish people on the internet. He wanted to catfish someone for the sole purpose of meeting up with them so that he could hurt them. The police ask, was he ever abusive or violent towards animals? Not that I know of. But when news broke of that 98-year-old woman being found dead, it just had a sneaking suspicion.

54:20Why? Hillary shows the investigators a Snapchat message between them where she asks Gavin if he's okay. She says, quote, what's the matter? He responds, N-U-N, I guess nothing. It's cool. I don't know. I just get some really fucked up thoughts like about murdering people and it doesn't bother me. And I watched one of those self-exit videos on YouTube and I laughed and I'm pretty sure I could kill someone in cold blood and not feel guilty or sad or anything about it. I honestly have two emotions and they're angry or laughing and I'm never really happy. I'm just faking it. I don't even get sad anymore.

54:49I literally don't care about anything whatsoever. Other small things that the police learned about Gavin, it's pretty clear that he has a strange relationship with his parents. One friend claims that Gavin and his dad got into a really bad fight once and it compelled Gavin to choke himself out. I don't know if he was trying to do it in spite of his dad to scare him, to make him feel guilty, or if he was in distress or both, but it's alarming. A few of the friends do remember Gavin posting a Snapchat, taking a picture out of his bedroom window and showing all the cop cars out on the neighborhood streets.

55:21And some of them even messaged Gavin saying, whoa, that's crazy. Speaking of Snapchat, one of his friends says, quote, he always seemed happy at school, but then on Snapchat, he would just seem so mad. During the search on Gavin's home, police come across a 70 page notebook, like the ones that they make you buy at the beginning of every school year. It's bright purple. They find it under his bed. The first few pages are research papers into two notorious serial killers, Donald Gaskins and Ted Bundy. The more notable being Ted Bundy, considering he too engaged in heavy acts of necrophilia. But then when you flip the pages, the serial killer biographies slowly morph into horror movie skit ideas, none of which are good.

56:04One page reads, Skit ideas, Horror at the Factory, Introduction, Brayden, his best friend, is playing at the park and I am a murderer and I'm plotting on how to kill him. Then he notices me watching him from a distance. So he stops playing, looks at me, then I start walking towards him so he runs into the woods. The end. Fin, finale, critical acclaim, and Oscar. I don't know what he's thinking. The next page reads, skit ideas. It looks like a page from a brainstorming session. Serial killer taking person into the woods. Interactive horror story. Hunted for a thousand dollars horror at the factory scene setting different outcomes and scenarios a series i will say there does seem to be some sort of fascination into his best friend brayden he writes three potential mini sewed series which i do not believe will be picked up by any network anytime soon episode one is written brayden comes back from college travel running away etc he we decide to go on a hike and catch up and bond at the old spot we went to as kids silver Creek.

57:05As we're walking, we get into a heated conversation about Brayden leaving and going away, which leaves me at home with a shitty home life and abusive drunk dad. And as we're yelling at each other, I lose my footing and realistically fall down the cliff. Episode two opens back up on the cliffhanger. Literally, it reads, Brayden frantically rushes down the cliff to come help me and show me that he will always be my big brother and that he will always be there for me and never leave me. Once he reaches the bottom, we have a heart to heart talk and then he starts to help me up. In episode three, as they're making their way back up the hill, Brayden falls and gets more serious injuries than Gavin.

57:40So they're both injured and both their phones are broken. That's it. It's not the most riveting stuff, but the journal becomes more pertinent to investigators when those skit ideas start morphing into a diary. Gavin is journaling. This has been shortened, but his first journal entry reads, this writing thing is new to me. So I'm going to give this my best shot. I hate being at home. I hate being downstairs with my family because a lot of the time I feel like I don't really belong here. If I'm at home, I prefer to just be alone in my room. I feel like I don't belong anywhere. I can contain my thoughts and urges most days, but sometimes I just want to fucking go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore.

58:18It's not even for attention or anything. I honestly want to take someone's life. I want to know what that would feel like, what it would feel like to stand over some dead body. I don't feel empathy or sympathy for anybody. Like I just don't give a shit and I want to know why. Like I wouldn't feel bad if I killed someone, but I don't want to fucking sit in prison. Like that would suck. I really need to stop drinking, but it drowns out the pain. So I probably won't stop. His next journal entry reads, all right, so I'm back and man, do I have some shit to say. Today I'm listening to I'm Sorry by Joyner Lucas, which side note is a really painful song about self-exit and how it affects family members after a loved one is gone.

58:55Viewer discretion is advised. It was very emotionally rough, but insightful, but just be careful going into it. Very beautifully done though. Anyway, Gavin writes, it really makes me get in my feels. After I listened to that, I went and hit the punching bag and really needed to let it out. A lot of built up rage and anger. I fucked up my hands, but I knocked the bag completely off the chain. It was hanging from and it felt good to have that kind of power. I think if counseling doesn't help me, I'm honestly just going to kill someone. Like I'm not just saying that. I'll probably take a girl out into the woods, R word her and kill her.

59:24I wouldn't even feel bad about it, but I know it's wrong. I think I'm a depressed sociopath, to be honest. I don't fucking care about 99 % of things. The only things I truly care about are my friends and my close family. While Gavin is confessing to murder, both of his parents, mom and dad, are sitting outside in the lobby of the police station. The authorities inform them that they have some news and updates to share, but they need to conduct another search on the house, and it would be best if nobody was home. Gavin's mom calls her other kids. Hey, honey, listen, this is going to be a weird request, but I need you to take your brothers and take them out of the house right now.

59:55Why? I'll explain later. Maybe go to Uncle David's and just hang there and we will call you when you can come home. Is everything all right, Mom? No, everything is not all right. But don't tell your brothers right now. After they get out of the house, the two parents are waiting for the police to finally tell them what's going on and the female officer tells him, the mobile phone contained images of Margaret before and after her death as well as videos of your son with her. both of them have a physical reaction it's not an extreme reaction at least not visibly but they seem shaken gavin's mom is the first to talk having sex with her engaging in sexual acts with her yes they appear even more shocked the mom asks again was she alive when he was oh my god because the officer shakes her head now both of them cover their mouths with their hands and honestly, Gavin's dad seems to be hit the hardest.

1:00:49He's grabbing the wall. He looks lost. He doesn't even know what to do with himself, where his mom keeps going. This isn't happening. This isn't real. I want you to know that I spoke to the director of the juvenile detention facility. I explained the situation. I explained that Gavin is highly emotionally distraught. I asked him to put him on self-exit watch. Okay, okay. I asked him to keep him under 24-7 observation. I know this is an emotionally devastating situation. Gavin's mom is nodding. It's unclear if she's just going into mom mode, trying to pay attention and think for her son, or if she's in shock, I don't know.

1:01:24But the dad is very distraught. He's sitting down, he's shaking, and a male cop says, it's a horrible set of circumstances. You deserve to know that he will be tried as an adult. The dad starts crying eventually. Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God, 98 years old. She was just living out her days. And here's my son. My son did this. You have all, you motherfucking all these people out there. And it's my son? Eventually, the interaction ends with the mom asking the officer, does Gavin understand that he's going to prison probably for the rest of his life?

1:02:14everyone who knows margaret says she's not what you think when you envision a 98 year old woman she was strong she was fierce she was born in 1919 this took place in 2018 she was a few months away from turning 99. She lived through the second world war, the moon landing. I mean, she just seemed so excited to live out the rest of her days. She would tell her family, she just wants to hit a hundred because why not? You know? And we don't know too much about Margaret, but in almost every picture of her that I've seen, regardless of her age, there's always a dog. There's always a dog nearby. And she's a big gardener.

1:02:48She lived in that house, tended to it for the past 50 years. Someone who once knew Margaret says, when I was a little girl, this woman would actually babysit me. Now I'm in my 80s thinking about her. The crafts and games that she would play with me. And on my fifth birthday, my family and I moved away and I never saw her again. Just finding out about her death, I feel like it's too late to help. But she's with God now. I love her and I miss her forever. According to everyone that knew Margaret, she's just very independent. She handled her own finances. Her husband had passed. She didn't want to move.

1:03:22She wanted to live in this house that she had created this whole life with him forever. And that was her dream. And then she gets murdered by a 17-year-old kid. Back in the interrogation room, the officer confronts Gavin with the belief that she believes if he had not been caught, Gavin would have gone on to kill more people. Because even after Gavin kills Margaret, he says he didn't really feel different. He said, I didn't really feel like anything had changed or had happened. I really didn't feel anything. I just continued to break into cars and drink and smoke dope. Wow. The officer says, unfortunately, I think you would have hurt more people.

1:03:56Was that in your plan? I mean, it wasn't in my plan, but I could see that happening. Many netizens believe that he was ramping up to be a serial killer. So remember how I said in his little journal, he had those serial killer reports. Also, to call it reports or research is kind of goofy. He makes it sound like he's sitting there doing some sort of focus work because he was telling his friends, almost bragging about it, that he's researching serial killers. I'm not entirely sure what compelled me to go down this route But after listening to hours and hours of his raw interrogation footage The idea of him writing these snippets of these serial killers It just didn't really make sense As to who I was hearing in the interrogation footage As to who was writing in the journals It was just copied and pasted from a crime magazine Oh, he's copying a crime magazine's words onto his own journal pretending that this is his own thoughts.

1:04:48Yes. So I don't think that he had a particular fascination in serial killers. I think that he had a fascination in wanting to be perceived as one or to be perceived as dark. Oh, like all the, okay. So it doesn't seem like he's sitting there studying Ted Bundy, his MO, how he was caught, why he was caught, why he did those things. So it's very interesting because a lot of people, some people feel sympathy for the way that he keeps telling his friends He wants to understand what's going on in his mind. And then you would kind of, it would be safe to conclude that if he's researching serial killers, maybe he's trying to understand their minds to see how it connects to his mind.

1:05:27But that's not the case. I think he just is a bad person. But he's saying these things, not because he truly wants to understand himself. But I think, I personally think, he just wants to be perceived a certain way. Because he's not really researching other minds that he feels are similar to his. He's not researching serial killers and their thought process. He's practically copy and pasting their Wikipedia pages down. It's hard to say that he's trying to understand himself through that. Gavin Ramsey is indicted and charged with one count of aggravated murder, two counts of murder, three counts of felony murder, one count aggravated burglary, one count kidnapping, and one count of abuse of a corpse.

1:06:07Gavin did see a counselor a few years prior to the murder, but I don't think that he told anybody about his necrophilic tendencies. the counselor does go on to prescribe him at one point 100 milligrams of zoloft per day zoloft is an antidepressant 100 milligrams is a pretty high dosage now i was inclined to assume that the counselor knew nothing but according to his medical files it's noted that january 2018 just three months before the murder gavin's pediatrician noted that gavin was displaying psychological difficulties and having intrusive thoughts of violence his mom states if i could change one thing, I would never have agreed to put my son on Zoloft.

1:06:45So his whole defense during the trial is the Zoloft defense. That Zoloft made him more aggressive, more violent, which there are some studies that show that it does happen. That's their whole defense. The mom even says, you cannot believe that my decision to let him take Zoloft was not part of the cause of this. She claims that from January to March that he was on Zoloft, she noticed him getting increasingly irritable, hostile even saying quote bizarre things and prior to that he was just the sweetest boy i guess which like i said there are studies done to show how zoloft can impact people especially teenagers that it does increase aggression there's symptoms of you know agitation restlessness anger irritability and she tells the judge before this gavin was loyal to a fault he's compassionate and this thing this thing that we're sitting here discussing is not who my son is i don't care how much you want to pluck out evil fast.

1:07:41That's not my son. Side note, there is another odd moment with Gavin and his mom during the interrogation where he hasn't confessed to murder yet. I'm just giving you the dynamic of mother and son. He has not confessed to the murder of Margaret. He's only confessed to the carjacking. He's rocking back and forth, ranting and pointing at his mom. And he's saying, I'm costing them thousands of dollars because he's always getting in legal trouble. Constant heartbreak. I honestly probably never made either of them proud. I don't do anything fucking good ever And his mom just whips to him And instead of being like, no son, you do make me proud She just goes, stop cussing Okay She does not deny it, just tells him to stop cussing It's a weird interaction And now she's up on the stand saying he's compassionate He's loyal to a fault In addition to the Zoloft defense, if you will His attorneys bring up his past There are records that Gavin was allegedly A victim of a sexual offense back in 2009 So that means he would have been 9 years old We don't know exactly what happened, but we can kind of imagine and presume based off of what he told authorities that he had been with a man before, but it was, quote, involuntary.

1:08:46I couldn't find the case files anywhere, probably because he was nine at the time. But I'm not even sure if that's an argument that could be had. Some netizens think it is a fair argument, considering that trauma could have shaped his brain differently when he's nine years old and sent him down this path. But be that as it may, other netizens say, what does Margaret have to do with that? A lot of people have been victimized, but they don't go out and do what he did. They don't go out and commit necrophilia. Also, who targets a 98-year-old woman that feels completely unrelated to his alleged trauma?

1:09:16Ultimately, Gavin's defense and mother have argued that it's his taking of Zoloft that led him to commit this crime. The only time Gavin seems emotional throughout the entire trial proceedings is when his mom is testifying and stating that all of this is because of Zoloft. He does not get emotional even when Margaret's family members give impact statements. Meanwhile, the prosecutor's main focus is not just the killing of Margaret, but what he did to Margaret's body afterwards. The police chief says this murder was the most horrific crime that he had ever seen in his 30 years of working as a cop.

1:09:46He says, Gavin just has evil in him to do something like that. That's the only way I can explain it. Another officer says he degraded her body, videotaping and taking pictures. He's actually been in there with her for a while. He stayed for two hours. the only reason that he went home is because his mom wakes up at five in the morning and he had to pretend to be asleep who knows how much longer he would have stayed who knows what more he would have done the prosecutors also argue that Zoloft cannot be the reason for his aggressive behavior they call into evidence that he starts his Zoloft prescription January 31st 2018 a week before January 19th 2018 he's writing in his journal quote I just want to fucking go off on someone and beat them until they're not breathing anymore I honestly just want to take someone's life the prosecutor also points to the fact that even during the interrogation the time that he gets the most emotional when he is practically rocking back and forth this is again before he confesses to killing margaret this is when he thinks he's going to court for carjacking he says i was 16 and already had a fucking felony like five misdemeanors and now i'm going to be in more trouble and i have to go back to court and i'm so done with it i'm done with it honestly i don't even want to live at home anymore i don't know i'm not fucking normal i just need to live somewhere else like i don't know some halfway house or something i honestly would not care at this point i don't even care what's on my record i mean like i do but like not right now i know i might have to deal with it for like another next nine months and this is what makes me so mad he acts like he's a victim that he has to go through the court process he's crying because of consequences later when he's talking about what he did to margaret the authorities ask him are you sorry this happened yeah i'm really sorry i did all this were you sorry about all of this before you got caught yeah like i constantly think about it a lot and i feel bad about what i did like i don't i feel bad i know it's wrong but i can't express the emotion if she was here live in front of you what would you say to her i'm sorry that never that never meant to happen if i could take it back i would like is he mimicking the yes none of these are actual descriptions of feelings these are um what people call dead phrases so when you're like i guess when you're writing or reading or even speaking there's things dead phrases i if i could take it back i would it doesn't really actually mean anything and it's been overused to the point where it does not evoke a feeling yeah you're not describing a feeling you're almost just saying things yeah absolutely yeah it's he's just saying what he thinks he needs to say yeah there's no emotion behind his words no so scary and he also talks about how his dad is going to be so upset and he says i know it's going to ruin our family name that's what he says it's going to ruin their family name see so okay it gives the feeling is he understands the consequences what this means how bad this is what's going to happen he he he heard enough of it he knows it but he has no attachment nothing there's no emotion behind any of these right no that's what's so terrifying about the only emotion he has is when he is facing prison and court yeah and even that like it doesn't sound like he is it's still different like he still is still it's like he's annoyed by it yes it's like agitating versus devastating.

1:13:17Eventually, Gavin pleads no contest and is found guilty November 2018 of all the charges against him, including aggravated murder, murder, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, gross abuse of a corpse. He also provides a statement to court to Margaret's family, which honestly is not a great statement. I think it provides no closure. He can't even explain why he did what he did. He just says, I don't know how to explain why all this happened. I don't think there is an explanation to begin with. I think about it all the time. I'd take it back in a heartbeat if I could. I feel terrible for what I've done and I will never do anything like that again.

1:13:49I'm sorry for what I did. I constantly live in regret and shame because of it. Margaret's family gave their victim impact statements and her great niece said, had he not been caught, I have no doubt that he would continue to escalate his crimes and continue killing. And I believe he planned to kill numerous people. He used my aunt as a warmup, so to speak. gavin was sentenced to life without the possibility of parole 10 years for aggravated burglary 10 for kidnapping and one year of abuse of a corpse to be served consecutively which side note a lot of netizens hope for the death penalty but he was 17 which means he cannot face capital punishment he has appealed his sentence which was denied but it doesn't really matter because in ohio a new senate bill passed it's the new law sb 256 and abolishes life and imprisonment without parole for juvenile offenders even if they're charged as adults.

1:14:42They have automatic chance at parole at 25 years. Wow. Now the keyword is chance. Now side note in 25 years Gavin will only be 42 years old so even without Gavin's case the bill is pretty controversial with one expert stating the person you are at 16 is not the person you are at 50. The juvenile brain is not fully developed. They do things impulsively. While a prosecutor argues back that well maybe that's true for certain cases maybe like drug related offenses but in these types of cases like gavin's they say quote someone who has a propensity to become a serial killer and then gets out in 25 or 30 years i don't agree with that at all yeah especially if they don't have the resources to to help him you know in that 25 years so how do you know in the 42 is way too young you know like it's it's the never-ending circle of debates on this right so a lot of netizens have pointed out if a juvenile has no chance of getting out of prison they have no motivation to rehabilitate right so then you give them that chance to rehabilitate but the same netizens now argue but there is no rehabilitation being done in our prisons so if you don't fix that then who cares about giving them a chance to be free right because you're not going to rehabilitate them because you don't you don't spend the resources our prison system is so messed up it's not going to happen so it's like this whole of what comes first the chicken or the egg i guess is what a lot of people feel about this debate now margaret's family member says when he was sentenced it was like okay we took a criminal off the road we took him out of society and now we're looking at here we go again now he may be back in society at some time which i don't even think that they're opposed to rehabilitating teens margaret's family member just says it puts all of these juvenile criminals into one box whether they were being reckless and shooting a gun that accidentally killed someone or if they're committing these devious plotting crimes like gavin did one senator argues i mean this the bill was looking at many of those cases where people have changed and turned their lives around, became good model prisoners and done everything right.

1:16:57They made a mistake when they were juveniles and were sentenced as adults. In no way does this new law guarantee release for offenders, only an opportunity for parole if they can show that they are truly rehabilitated. And while I get that, how do you really know? Sure, the judge presiding over the case said that Gavin is irreparably corrupt and unfit to reenter society, but it won't be the same judge that determines if he gets probation. and what you see on the probation records is kind of a watered down version of the actual facts of the case. It's not going to be as in depth. You're not going to get the emotions of the family members, the victim impact statements.

1:17:32You're not going to have as much of that involved. And of course, people like Gavin are really good at faking remorse. This is how he writes about himself. He has a profile on the website writeaprisoner.com. He's looking for pen pals and it reads, Gavin Ramsey is 23 years old and incarcerated in Ohio, USA. He states he is an Aries, a Christian, but not seeking prayer partners, and he's straight. And his profile reads, hey there, I'll keep it short and sweet. And if I spark your curiosity, you're more than welcome to write to me. I'm looking for people who are interested in spirit, soul, and body growth and development.

1:18:09I enjoy conversations that delve far beneath the surface and I love to laugh and see people smile as well. I believe everybody has something beautiful to contribute to the people and places around them, but it takes the right person to unearth so great a gem. Perhaps I'm that person for you. Perhaps you're that person for me. I enjoy writing music and poetry. I play sports and have a high regard for my health and fitness. I also crochet, which is more therapeutic than I originally thought, but only in prison would I learn such a craft, lol. I'm in college and I'm always searching for proactive ways to mature as an individual, both for myself and for those around me.

1:18:44I believe if you want to see a difference, you have to be the difference. this gives me he's amping up for parole in 25 years he says thus i invite you to come be a difference with me i look forward to hearing from you smiley face wow he will be eligible for parole when he's 42 years old in 2043 margaret's family says it's terrifying they say several family members chose to give victim impact statements at a sentencing before his sentencing they have to give victim impact statements they don't know what his sentence is going to be they know that he's been found guilty, but they don't know the sentence, he could be out and about.

1:19:18They said, we know that if we put our true thoughts in our statements, Gavin would be able to read and hear them. And we discussed the risk of giving him fuel for the rage he carries inside him, knowing that at some point he might be released from prison while my siblings and I are still alive. He's relatively young and knowing he may come after us, but we all decided to move forward with our statement and trusted that the criminal justice system would ensure that justice as well as our safety and the community safety would be prioritized when sentencing. The amount of relief when we found out that he had life without parole, immeasurable.

1:19:49That relief is now gone because of SB256. We now spend every day worrying about Gavin's release. His release may happen not only when my siblings and I are still alive, but when my parents are alive. So this is the great niece, Cindy's daughter, Cindy and Howard's daughter. Wow. I still have nights when I need to check closets and under the bed out of paranoia. I still have nights where I wake up suddenly and have to put my gun next to me on the bed in order to feel safe. If he wasn't concerned about getting home prior to his parents waking, how much longer would he have stayed with Margaret? What else would he have done?

1:20:22I mean, I think I can feel that like because of his, his crying is so senseless, so unreasonable. Like this is truly a mind of a serial killer. So you feel so terrified because there's no closure. You can predict how this person is going to act. Because I think we as humans all run on a system of calculating other people's risk tolerance. It's, I don't believe this person will kill me because then they will forfeit this. They have this risk of what happens to them. But it truly seems he does not care for that. He actually likes the thrill of taking risks. So it's very unpredictable, I'm sure, is the feeling.

1:21:03And so scary. they say our sense of safety has forever changed but they're going to fight every parole hearing every chance that he's going to be free or every chance he could be free they're going to be there many netizens have also said it's scary because in court he's very polite very polite to the judge he presents as a very well put together young man and the top comments read was he this polite when he was murdering a defenseless elderly lady the only time that he's emotional during the trial is when his mom is talking and when they tell him that he's going to county jail rather than juvenile detention and he looks physically ill.

1:21:40A lot of netizens are focused on the victim's age. They write, Imagine being 98. You escaped death by accidents, illness, lived through world wars, the Great Depression, and more, so close to dying in your bed peacefully only for a low life to do this to you. Some netizens feel very conflicted on whether or not he has the ability to rehabilitate, stating, Mixed emotions on this one. What he did was absolutely disgusting and evil, but this is a child whose brain is not completely developed and trained. I really don't know what way to go in this case. Others think, oh, he's way too far gone now.

1:22:10They write, it's a good thing they caught him while he's young because this type of action just escalates as they get older. Some people cannot be fixed. Another writes, I don't know how people can question it. Some people are just born this way. They should be eradicated from society. You cannot fix them. Or Senate Bill 256 is going to protect this kid to an extent, but hopefully a parole board will see the serial killer in him and deny him parole for life, if they let him out, he will absolutely do it again. Serial killers do not stop unless they're dead or caught. Another comment reads, this is Jeffrey Dahmer in the making.

1:22:41Thank God he was stopped at his first victim, rest her soul. There would have been many more to come. Other netizens are shocked at the crime itself, saying the father's screaming, it's my son, my son that did this. It's heartbreaking. Others comment, his parents seem like all right people, but I just get the feeling that something is off with his mom. She's saying the right words, but I just felt something off about her. I don't know, I can't explain it. Which many netizens who watched her statement in court agree. They say, did she just call her son compassionate? Not sure what this woman knows what compassionate even means.

1:23:13Other moms agree, if that was my son, I would not be calling him compassionate. I would be taking him to prison myself. Or another one reads, that boy is like that because of his mom. You know, even when slapped in the face with how much of a monster her demon spawn is, she chooses to ignore and coddle him. She raised that. She should be ashamed. His mommy says he's compassionate. Yeah, well, so is the justice system who gave him life sentence with parole now. Another comment just points out, if a detective ever asks you, what do you think should happen to the person that did this? Just know that you are their suspect, lol.

1:23:49And that is where we are with this case. What are your thoughts? Do you think that he can be rehabilitated? can someone this far gone be rehabilitated or no? What are your thoughts? Let me know in the comments and I will see you in the next one. Be safe. Bye.