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Rotten Mango Podcast Episode Summary
Episode Title
“My Parents Were Pedophiles & Forced Me Into Being With Other Pedophiles”- A Day With Lisa Plumb
Episode Description
This episode features Lisa Plumb, who recounts her horrifying experiences of abuse as a child, detailing the disturbing environments that enabled such abuse, particularly at nudist camps, and the actions of her parents and other predators. The conversation dives into the complexities of her life growing up in a sexually abusive environment, her reflections on childhood trauma, and her journey towards healing.
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Key Themes and Concepts
- Child Abuse and Grooming:
- Lisa highlights how her experiences began with her parents' introduction to pedophiles, leading her into environments that normalized abuse.
- Grooming tactics used by predators are discussed, showing how seemingly innocent interactions can lead to manipulation.
- Family Dynamics and Dysfunction:
- The episode examines the roles of Lisa's parents, especially focusing on her mother’s involvement with predatory individuals, and how this contributed to a toxic family dynamic.
- Lisa's reflection on parental alienation and the conflict fostered among siblings.
- Nudism and Vulnerability:
- The episode discusses the existence of family nudist camps and their implications for child safety.
- Controversial perspectives on nudity and children's comfort level with it are explored, addressing the potential for exploitation.
- Psychological Impact of Trauma:
- The episode touches on the long-term effects of childhood trauma, including PTSD and the struggle for recovery.
- Lisa shares insights about mental health, therapy, and the importance of protective factors in a child's life.
- Justice and Accountability:
- The lack of adequate legal consequences for predators is a recurring theme, especially concerning the experiences of Lisa with law enforcement and the justice system.
- Lisa discusses her attempts to hold her abusers accountable, including a later confrontation with her past abuser in court.
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Key Takeaways
- Normalization of Abuse: Children can be unwittingly introduced to abusive situations, leading to a distorted sense of normalcy regarding relationships and sexuality.
- Impact of Environment: Certain environments, such as nudist camps, can provide cover for predators, necessitating a critical examination of adult supervision and safety measures in such settings.
- Healing Journey: Lisa emphasizes the significance of confronting trauma through therapy, inner child work, and the importance of narrating one's story as a form of healing.
- Awareness and Education: There’s a need for education on consent and the inability of children to truly consent to adult relationships, regardless of their intellectual capabilities.
- Advocacy for Victims: The episode encourages advocacy for victims of child abuse, highlighting the importance of believing survivors and creating supportive environments for them to share their stories.
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Conclusion The episode with Lisa Plumb offers a profound and disturbing insight into the realities of childhood abuse and the long-lasting effects it can have on survivors. Her journey from victim to advocate emphasizes the importance of awareness, education, and healing for both individuals and society at large. This poignant discussion serves as a wake-up call for listeners to recognize the signs of abuse and to support efforts to protect vulnerable children.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:02There are a few workplaces where most employees feel fear on a daily basis where they could actually die. Not just a I hate my job I could die or technically bad people and a meteor could strike anywhere at any time. But genuine, the second that I clock in for work, my adrenaline starts spiking because you can die at any moment. One employee states ominously, ultimately we're directly in harm's way every single minute. We come to work with the attitude of it's not if I'm going to get hit, but when I'm going to get hit. That's the way of life. Which is why when you clock in, you get handed an alarm that you wear on your body that has GPS and sends immediate signals to police when it's activated.
0:44You also get a giant whistle to make sure that if something happens, you can make a loud noise to alert someone. This is at Patton State Psychiatric Hospital, where the population consists primarily of patients who have been committing crimes, often violent crimes. Some of the patients have committed murder, violent assaults, and yet they're here because they have been found either criminally insane, incompetent to stand trial, or are waiting to stand trial and are being evaluated. One psychiatrist states, treating these people is not easy. Violence is part of our lives every day. It's not just a constant thing.
1:16It's not like the violence happens now and again. Violence is part of the daily life. One employee at Patton State Hospital, they have 1 ,300 patients. She starts feeling uncomfortable because one of the patients there, it feels like he's tracking her movements. It's like he's observing her closely. Anytime she's at work, she feels like she's being stalked. This is a big deal. She tells her boss about it and they do nothing. By the next month, that patient punches her in the face, drags her into a room and stabs her repeatedly with a makeshift weapon. These are the types of patients that are held at Patton State Hospital, which is exactly where Donald Gordon is sent.
1:53He's going to be there for at least two plus years. He has on his record over 40 different charges for SA and abuse against a minor. but he says there's a reason for all of this he don gordon claims quote everybody does it also some of them are promiscuous and they were the ones that came after me side note his own children were his victims as well the neuropsychologist in charge of evaluating don gordon states his marriages weren't doing well he kept trying to stop himself he was thinking about stopping himself he knows that it was illegal that he could get into a lot of trouble but the more he did the the more chances that he would get.
2:30But he said he made the commitment to himself to stop it, but he just couldn't stop. He just didn't stop. He said the more he did it, the more actually stimulated and aroused he got, that his sex drive actually increased. But to his surprise, he wasn't getting satisfied. He was getting more stimulated by it. He became obsessed with wanting more and more. He tells the psychologist the main reason that he went after little girls is because, quote, it made him feel big, powerful, and good. But also, they seduced him. But it's going to be okay. They just need to let him free because when he gets out of the hospital, he will be putting parental controls on his computer.
3:08He will not be going anywhere where the kids are going. He promises. The police have alarmingly found locks of girls' hair in a plastic baggie at his house. And the only reason he was even caught, again, was because he went to a photo development center where you can turn in film for film cameras. he turned a roll in that had c-sam on there and yet because he argues he's going to have parental controls on his computer he's not going to go where the kids are they let him out even though he used this hospital as a networking place he met another sex offender in the same hospital and afterwards they met up at a family nudist camp where they competed to see who could molest more children at a family nudist camp which are a very interesting place children are allowed to go and most camps have rules that everyone must be nude to be at this property.
3:56A lot of people wonder if it's uncomfortable for children. One camp addresses in their very bizarre FAQ, which is a frequently asked questions portion of their website, they answer the question, are children forced to be nude? The word forced is an emotionally loaded word and suggests unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion. The reality is that as parents, we have a duty to teach our children to behave appropriately. We teach them to brush their teeth, eat healthy foods, even if their desires might be contrary. However, when it comes to nudity, most children are very comfortable with nudity until they are taught otherwise by society.
4:34With young naturist children, it's just as likely that parents force them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory. It's a very weird FAQ page, one that makes me personally uncomfortable. I will say that I'm a very pro-clothing person, so what do I know? And I know that in different parts of the world, nudity is not as sexually charged as maybe America, but it's strange. Another rule page states, Sunburned shoulders may require a reasonable length t-shirt, perhaps to the waist, but certainly not extending to the knees or to ankles. Going about the property wearing a towel, except perhaps for the first few moments out of the water, is always inappropriate.
5:18These camps clearly can be a breeding ground for predators, especially when only a few camps require that parents be with their children at all times, which means these camps have children's zones where children and adults can gather and play and swim in the swimming pool, play pickleball, play tennis. Why would predators not go there? Like Don Gordon and his friend from the institution. That was their hunting grounds. It was also somewhere where Donald Gordon would take Lisa. One of Don Gordon's victims will be Lisa Plum, whom he starts abusing when she was just 11 years old. Don will tell the neuropsychologist that, well, he just wanted to be a father figure to Lisa.
5:56That's why he sexually abused her. Because both of Lisa's parents were pals as well. And Lisa's mom was the one to introduce her to Donald Gordon. This is Lisa's story.
6:28What is Glen Eden Sun Club? Glen Eden Sun Club is a family nudist camp, which means everybody gets naked together. and it's a resort. There's pools, jacuzzis, sauna, cafe, hiking, tennis, camping. When you walk in, you will see a sign, clothing is not optional. So if you even try to throw on a jacket because you're cold? Well, maybe if it's cold, everyone might put a jacket on, but it doesn't get really cold too much there. Even children have to get naked. The first time you went was when you were five? Yeah. Who took you? My mom had a boyfriend, Larry Feldman, that decided we should all go to Glen Eden.
7:14Was there an explanation he gave? I don't remember a specific explanation for Glen Eden other than other times he said to us, specifically me and my sister, that he was doing what he was doing so that we wouldn't grow up to be frigid. Did you want to be there? Was it uncomfortable? No, we did not want to go get naked in front of each other. Yeah, that was like a horrifying idea when it was presented to us. And especially my brother and sister, you know, said, we don't want to get naked. That was just not an option. So you were five, how old were your brother and sister? My brother was would have been eight or nine, and my sister, 10.
8:00Oh, wow. I mean, I thought it was interesting because I was listening to another interview that you did. And I was like, there's no way this resort is still around. I googled it and it's still open. Like, people are going today. And then I was thinking, okay, well, maybe it's one of one that's still open. But there's so many throughout the country. There's just so many all ages, nude resorts. Do you feel like that is a place where bad things happen? Well, who wants to be naked in front of kids? I mean who wants to see naked kids it's definitely not safe for children because it's a pedophile magnet and if you're a pedophile and you know about it why wouldn't you go and they they let people go that's who took me it was pedophiles and then there's pedophiles there when you say that's who took you pedophiles do you mean just larry or larry and your mom well my mom I don't No, I guess depending on how you define pedophile, but she didn't have a problem being sexual around us children.
9:02What do you mean by that? One day I heard some strange noise in my mother's room. They had called me in the room and then told me to sit down. At five, I really had no context or idea. And I went in, and again, I did not understand what I was seeing other than I was freaked out. They were having intercourse. But at the time, again, I didn't understand. And I asked my mom, are you okay? Was there any discussion with your mom after that happened? Yeah, I don't remember any discussion other than another time. They did that on the kitchen table. I have no idea why the kitchen table. I had forgotten this part, but one of my siblings told me that Larry asked my brother to take pictures.
9:45I gave him a camera. And so it's us three kids kind of awkwardly giggling and just like, you know, looking around watching. Do you think that your mom was a profile who attracted other profiles? Or do you think that she was someone who was so starved for male attention? Not that it would justify anything, but. Right. I mean, she definitely was different than like Larry or other profiles. like they were very intentional and they had plans so i had a therapist once tell me that she was vicariously molesting me and us there was a actually a scholarly article he gave me i have it somewhere in a box somewhere i keep trying to find it but i don't know is she like she's a vicarious file um she didn't have any boundaries no problem i also feel like she was a malignant narcissist.
10:44I do believe she was abused and she has a bad reputation in her family for being an awful, scary person. In the beginning, it was you, your two siblings that were adopted, your mother and your biological father. And they divorced when you were... Four or five. What was it like up until four or five as a family unit? Right. So I don't remember a lot because we really don't have picture memory until about the age of five. We have implicit memory. What is that? So our bodies remember, but our brains don't start to make pictures with the memory until about then. Most people don't have very many memories at all.
11:25We have a couple here and there under the age of five. All I remember really from my early, early childhood is I was a little Episcopalian girl. and we went to church and I was very devout and I thought our priest looked like Jesus. Honestly, that's all I really remember. But as soon as my parents divorced, we were no longer going to church. So she had tried to kill herself. I didn't know it at the time, but I do remember, this is one of my earliest memories as well, is her laying down in bed. It was dark in the room and she was just kind of out of it. Then my grandma came and stayed with us for two or three weeks.
12:08I'm not sure. Then after that, as my brother has nicknamed her, Hollywood mom came home. My mom could be very charming, very personable, very put together. And she started having singles clubs, meets in her home, other single adults. Our home had to be perfectly clean at all times. And when she had these singles clubs, we were supposed to basically stay in the room or whatever. But people would meet us and see us. One minute before anybody came, she'd be screaming at us, you know, we'd have to clean and do this and that. And then someone would knock on the door and she'd be like, hi, you know, completely change her demeanor.
12:54Did you find solace in your siblings? Or was it because it was so tough, you guys were having problems as well. What was that like with your siblings? Well, I think there was some, you know, solace, but really not a lot. I suppose it was probably because of the dynamic that my father set up and my mom. Like my parents participated in what's called parental alienation syndrome. Basically, one parent's talking crap about the other parent, the other parent's talking crap about them and you have to like share messages you know they're arguing in front of you my mom would say your dad i don't know if i should fully say it but um likes to f men in their ass you know like to us little kids how old were you i'm five my dad's like your mom's crazy and one day i felt like i needed a hug
13:52no i don't want your siblings who are adopted to feel bad in my mind i don't think i said it out loud but i definitely thought well just hug them too yeah it was always pointed out they're adopted i'm not they're adopted i'm not one time i was trying to comfort my mom because my mom would kind of cycle from angry rampage mom to sobbing, sobbing mom. And sometimes she'd just be up all night. She was a piano player and she would just cry at the piano. But this time she was in a room crying. I'm trying to go comfort her. And she said something like, I wish your sister and brother were like you. I wish I could just run off with you.
14:38And they're like, I could see them looking. and I felt bad for them and I didn't want her to say that but so we were kind of pitted against each other on top of that you know the Larry was also violent and oversized us because there was more than watching them have he would single out myself sometimes do certain acts with with him and my mom, you know, to me, and then my sister in the room alone. I don't recall him doing that with my brother, but he lost his temper one day, and he told me to make him a bath. Then my brother comes out of his room saying, you mother. So, whatever, my brother, you know, had a cuss her mouth, and Larry just did not like that disrespect.
15:26So, he was yelling at him, he grabbed him by his ankles and picked him up and dunked his head in the toilet a few times. Just for clarity, Larry, the first boyfriend after the divorce happened? Yes, there was another pedophile that targeted me, but he was more like just a handyman friend of my mom. But John, John Lippert, I feel like he was before Larry or they were almost like at the same time. No, John, you know, again, these singles clubs and single mothers or pedagogical magnets. So they're just looking for opportunities. And the more vulnerable, the better, right? John started doing repairs, giving us ice cream.
16:08You know, we grew up in Riverside and it's hot in the summer. And then he just started molesting me. Me. I was probably in his right age group. There was another time that John had taken me into a field. We lived in like a little middle class neighborhood and then there was orange groves and then there was like a horse property so it was kind of converting you know from agriculture probably so there was fields and like he would take us to thrifty's ice cream and he's like you want to get ice cream lisa yeah but instead of going there he drove me into a field i always remembered that right but then as an adult a trigger happened and then i had more memory and basically to survive that i had to do some inner child work.
16:56But what happened is he threatened, if I told that he would insinuate that my mom would die, he would kill my mom. And again, I really didn't even know what he was talking about. What should I say? Not say. I don't have the words. I just didn't say much. Could I ask what triggered you later? My mom's death. Yeah. And at the time, and I write about it in the book, It was really weird. After she died, I started getting like these images of him. It's like, why? Why him? Why now? You know, and but I realized after doing some work, some therapeutic work that because he said, if I said anything, she would die.
17:42But once she died, there was no, no need to keep the secret anymore. When did your mom pass? 2007. seven. Yeah, so he was molesting me. He had brought me crayons and a coloring book and told me to lay down in a certain place. And he had his hand up under my dress. My sister comes in the house. She runs in and sees John molesting me and just like gets like really angry and looks at me, what's going on, you know? And I didn't, again, I didn't have words. Some people have said, this is why you need to teach kids the proper names of body parts. I agree with that. You should teach kids the proper names of body parts, but that wouldn't have prevented me being molested or some other children in similar circumstances when your family isn't supportive or they're part of it.
18:36So your sister sees that she's almost upset with you. Did she tell your mom? She must have told my mom and my dad because then um a day or so later they called me into the kitchen my mom my sister and john and my sister's the one that's upset you know and she's like tell tell mom what happened or whatever she said and again you know at the time i'm five and i don't even whatever remember i just don't have much to say but i i didn't say anything So what did your parents take from that then? I don't remember anything happening after that other than John stopped coming by. And my sister told me later that he, she's friends with his granddaughter or something, and that she was being molested by him too, which isn't a surprise.
19:30At the time, your sister's anger, was that towards John? Was that towards the situation? Was that towards being young and having no idea what's going on? I mean, I think all of it. She's young. She's not being parented, right? She's seeing bad things happen and her instinct and, you know, is kicking in her wise self. And she's probably getting like really frustrated with my parents. You know, my mother really didn't. She didn't do anything. There was no comfort. There was nothing like that. And then one day around that time, my dad, I'm in the car with him, and he said, I heard you were molested.
20:12Again, what do I say? I don't even know what to say to that. And then he said, just don't make a big deal about it. Why do you think he said that? Well, now, because he's a pedophile. He is, for sure. He's a bad father. He has no nurturing bone in his body. He doesn't think it's bad for kids. And I don't know what that meant, don't make a big deal about. But I remember thinking about it. Like, what does that mean? A lot of people, their parents will tell them not to make a big deal because maybe they don't want it to reflect on the family or maybe they care about what other people think. But it seems like your dad genuinely didn't think it was a big deal.
20:50Yeah, I know that's a fact. So John's out of your life. And now Larry starts dating your mom or around the time. He is the first person that forces the entire family to go to Glen Eden. While we were at Glen Eden, there was at least a couple of molesters lurking around. I'm sure there was more, but there was a, I call him the hairy guy. He was in the little pool, the kiddie pool. And he had us all lining up and he would pick us up and throw us. He slipped, right, grabbing my groin area. It hurt, you know. He's lining up children. Children are all lined up, tossed in the deeper, you know. Where are any of the other adults at?
21:32Just walking around. They see it. They're walking by. No second thoughts about it. I mean, I did go down a rabbit hole because I was like, I didn't even know nudist camps for families existed. So I'm looking and I was trying to understand why people would even advocate for it existing. and I mean there's this one place they were doing a Q &A because I was trying to see maybe the other perspective of is this an establishment that should exist right and it was our children forced to be naked and their response was so bizarre it was force is an emotionally charged word in fact if you force your child to wear a bathing suit that is also a use of force children have to do things they don't want to do all the time yeah they're all philosophers and i'm sure some people go to news camps aren't pedophiles in the big pool there was what the kids this is from the kids hey there's this guy the doctor they call him i don't know if he was a doctor but he um would wear goggles and just swim underneath oh my god i know people and nobody was like we gotta well us kids i don't know what the adults were doing or if anyone told the adults but we'd be like this you know when he'd go to swim under or he's there we can't really go swimming because everyone was like creeped out by him and so there was that and then also you know when you're actualized early and you're looking at naked people looking at each other like kids are starting to try to, you know, act out prematurely.
23:14I was reading online of someone saying they had a term called COG, creepy outside guys that would try to get into the nudist camp to look at the children. So it seems like it's a big issue that they try to do. Let's just keep doing that. Yeah. How about if you want to be naked in front of adults, keep it to adults. Right. Yes. Leave the children alone. So how frequently would Larry force you guys to go to Glen Eden? We probably went every weekend or once a month. But then he gave my mom a letter breaking up with her, which she had us read. Basically, he had to break up with her because he just couldn't take us kids anymore.
23:57Your mom made you guys read the letter? Yeah. What's the reason behind that? Because she's pointing out how we ruined her relationship with this guy. They were going to get married, you know, and us kids again. Were you happy to hear that letter? I mean, I felt sad for my mom. Because I did. You know, when you're kids, like, before you hit puberty, usually children are just all about their parents and always trying to do the right thing and really care about them. And anyway, that's how I felt. But also, I didn't miss him at all. Life just went on. And what happened, you know, like when you molest a child, you molest the neighborhood, really, right?
24:40So my brother had experienced violence, early civilization. And he started to take that out on me. I think there was something you said that stuck with me. It was like when you are labeled as having been used, people feel like you're fair game. humans are like that yeah my brother just started um he was kind of like the leader boy in the neighborhood my brother and sister were they were tough kids started pouncing me we definitely didn't have video games at the time and stuff we're always playing outside hide and go seek and all that and it became a game chase lisa down and pounce her and so they'd rip off my clothes and then you know like pin me down and force my legs open and all of that like over and over and pretend or try to put objects in and just like thought that was the most hysterical thing what is your relationship like with your brother now yeah so i'll just say when i um started the healing process i decided i was going to confront the people i could because i was really pissed yeah i started to get really in touch with that and although my therapist is like i don't recommend And, you know, I'm like, oh, well, I'm going to get to it anyway.
26:01But I started to confront my brother. Out of all the people I confronted, he didn't let me finish, and he said, Lisa, I'm sorry for what I did to you. Do you forgive him? I do. I forgive him. And forgiveness is a really difficult word, and how do you define it and all of that, right? But it doesn't erase emotions right away. Sometimes people prematurely forgive. Sometimes they're not open to it. my relationship with him now is not it we don't have a relationship right now he's really struggled his whole life struggled to be regulated we'll say i wish there was something i could do or to be helpful in that but i'm also not going to take verbal or otherwise abuse how old were you and how long did that last so i feel like it happened about the time of larry maybe when larry was still around or right after he left and it stopped when my stepdad came in my life is this ray yeah uh unfortunately though the neighborhood um kids like the boys that were involved i do remember one friend's brother one time was kind of at it or you know a part of the group and then he never came back around you know like he's like no i don't want a part of this but some of some of the other boys did continue.
27:20So just saying kids have choices too, right? And he didn't, he didn't want to be a part of it. But these other boys down the street, they, I don't know what was happening to them too, but they just took on a life of their own. Like I'd be riding my bike down the street and they come and pull me off my bike and drag me into their room. And one time I'm sobbing on this guy's lap and his mom hears, knocks on the door, opens it. Is everything okay? And I'm sitting there like six seven eight i don't know how old i was and she said is everything okay to her sons and they're like yeah that's fine and she closed the door and walked away so these are other like six seven eight year old boys where they're a lot older they they were not six seven they were older i'm not sure if they were four years older or six years older but they were definitely stronger than me.
28:17And I'm sure if you're riding your bike and they're pulling you off your, I mean, someone's got to see that at some point, right? You would think so. So nobody says anything, nobody, it just keeps continuing. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what the neighborhood saw or didn't see, but we were just kind of wild kids in the neighborhood. You know, we all smoked, drank, stole what we could from the store, weed. But I was a regular smoker at eight and you could get cigarettes from vending machines. But my mom always had a carton and we'd just like take cigarettes. And so I don't even remember my first cigarette.
28:56So Ray comes into your life. who is right um so raymond mcknight one morning i was gonna go to school my mom was actually gonna take me um but this guy knocks on the door and i go and open it and he's just like hey you know big old smile and he was carrying fuller brush stuff do you know what that is cleaning supplies, I guess, and mops and whatever, selling fuller brush stuff door to door. And so my mom invited him in, got him some coffee, and they started talking, and then she took me to school. And when I got back home that day, he was still there. But luckily, he was a good guy, because he could have totally been a bad guy.
29:49You know, my mom's like hey anybody it's fine um and so they stayed together and raymond he was just um again a good guy and he started to notice some of the dynamic in the family and he was probably the first one that ever told my brother boys don't hit girls yeah like that's not okay he started to parent us do you feel like all of you guys felt safer better with freeman around yeah but then he leaves your mother leaves well so he was a merchant marine he was a cook on oil tankers mostly so he would be gone a lot but i guess when he wasn't on a ship sometimes he'd do sales like fuller brush and stuff but um i was the youngest and he made up a nickname for me but he would always call me baby or sugar you know like from north carolina you know and um but then he's like i want to call you vanilla and he's chocolate you know but i remember thinking at the time like i don't even like vanilla I'd much rather be chocolate I like chocolate but he wanted that and so he'd always say hey vanilla I guess I cried a lot at night I also had a problem where instead of peeing the bed like I wouldn't pee for a long time I was just like so like in the middle of the night I'd wake up and I'd have to go I was in a lot of pain but he wasn't really part of that but when I was crying at least a couple times, I remember him coming in and picking me up and carrying me and putting me next to my mom.
31:34And then he went to the couch. Now, my mother never did that on her own. She just let me cry. But he, because he is a good guy, figured, oh, she needs to be with her mom. It was that act that was nurturing, not him putting me with my mom. Having Ray in your life, did it make you realize, because at that point, you said right afterwards, you didn't really understand that you were traumatized? Did that maybe put things into perspective or you were still at the age where you weren't processing it? Yeah. I mean, I don't even think trauma even became a word for many, many years later, at least in regards to childhood.
32:13Although one day I did see a child abuse commercial. Oh, I was looking at it. I was like, does that am i you know am i included do i count like just kind of a weird first introduction to it so see advertising works yeah that's the first thing that got me thinking about child abuse with ray i know now looking back what he what we would say in the therapeutic world is he was a protective factor can you tell me more about that yeah so there's a study called the ACE study, Adverse Childhood Experiences, which I don't like the way they ask some of the questions.
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33:04But adverse childhood experiences are basically severely traumatizing or stressful events or occurrences that happen in children's lives. It was actually a California doctor, an obesity doctor that started it at the time he was interviewing his patients to see if they were ready for surgery. And he accidentally asked the wrong question. How much did you weigh at your first experience? And the person said 40 pounds. And so he was like, oh, oh, I wonder if like, he didn't mean to ask that, but it's pretty logical now. But he started to wonder if being molested was correlated to being obese and it is they've discovered but not just that it's not just a hundred percent correlation but any adverse childhood experience physical abuse abuse parents divorcing losing a parent parent in prison feeling neglected or unloved I forget the other ones I don't like how they ask the molestation question because they asked did someone five years older than you that's a why that's a big gap used to be kind of like two years.
34:11You can be molested by someone your own age, someone just more powerful. Adults can be molested. But of course, it's different. It's not a child situation. But anyway, there's still it's ongoing across the world study. What they have found is that the more ACEs you have, the more likelihood in adulthood you'll be obese, have cancer, heart disease, drug, alcohol addiction, and mental illness. Again, it's not 100 % correlation, but it's a much higher correlation. And really, one of the main reasons is when you go into the stress state, fight, flight, freeze, or fawn, your body releases adrenaline, norepinephrine, cortisol, these chemicals that help us in case, you know, a tiger's attacking us or something.
34:55And we need that because then we numb out, we don't feel it, or we're extra strong, we can lift the car off our husband. But you only want to go in it and out. but when you're under these constant stressors you're always your body changes to always being in the stress state and that feels normal but it's not good for you because then you're always in an inflamed state and that's like sucks the dopamine or serotonin from our brain right and then we we're dopamine seekers and there's healthy ways of getting dopamine and unhealthy ways but you know like drugs alcohol all that is quick quick dopamine hits and but when people have protective factors in their childhood their outcomes are better so it kind of it's like a balancing scale maybe yeah so i really think if i hadn't had ray i mean maybe maybe i wouldn't have been able to survive because he gave me a taste of what love feels like what it actually feels like But a protective factor could be a parent, a teacher, a friend, a coach, you know, just somebody.
36:04Like every little good thing that you can say to somebody matters. It really matters. Like, you're really special or, you know, I can see you're going to do good in life or all of that adds up. I know there's a guy named Donald. Don. How did he even come into your life? You were 11? Yeah, I was 11. My sister, I guess she graduated high school early, but this is my memory. She graduated high school and went back to Indiana to visit our grandmother via train. And on the way back, she met Dawn and Jodi. Being the parents that they were, they saw a young girl. You know, I'm guessing this is how it happened.
36:46And started talking to her. Where are you from? Somehow, they figured out that she had been to Glen Eden before. and they're like well you should come to glen eden with us you know and oh and you have an 11 year old sister she should go to glen eden so they come over and meet your mom yeah but the first time i met them like my mom said you're gonna go to glen eden and i didn't want to go to glen eden because i don't want to get naked in front of people and then of course i don't want to see the hairy guy or the doctor or whatever, right? And then I don't know these people. Why do you think your mom was basically forcing you to go to Glen Eden?
37:28She told me she didn't want me to argue with my brother. We argued too much. But my brother was beating my ass all the time, okay? My siblings were beating me up. And I mean, I did my best, right? But I was the youngest. And my brother's a tough guy. So there was always chaos, right? My mom yelled at us when we yelled at each other just it was always like that but anyway she said that i could go with them and then we wouldn't argue so your brother's gonna stay home you and your sister are gonna go to glen eden with this random couple she met on a train yeah but really the way it was set up it seemed like it was just me going but my sister did go at least the first couple times but she had a boyfriend and she was like 16 so what happened is they show up i have to go.
38:15I'm not given the option. But Jodi, she's like 6 '2". And she was a basketball player. And I love sports, martial arts and stuff. At the time, it was I just loved softball. I was a softball player. Jodi, of course, looking back now, I see it like she was like brilliant in her grooming. But I come out looking at the six foot two tall, skinny blonde woman, blue eyes, and she has one eye that looks the other way so i'm trying not to stare at it but she's super charming dawn said oh you're an athlete huh like what sports do you play and jody's like i play basketball and she said she was the first woman to slam dunk it in illinois or something i don't know if that's true do women slam dunk anyway i was like enthralled by her he's just like this creepy guy you know but basically she's just talking talking which is a perpetrator technique the gift of fear by Gavin DeBecker is a really good book to read to learn about perpetrator techniques so you can better guard yourself against them but so she's just talking talking talking and saying you know well let's like race out to the car I have a basketball whatever so we raced right and she's like you almost beat me yeah i didn't and then we go to glen eden and so i am a smoker at the time but um i never smoked in front of adults and there she's like here you can have a cigarette i'm like really me smoke in front of you you know and that's how they got me to glen eden but she just made it all super charming at first so then um we get there same thing you pull up to the toll booth and the guy is like oh is this your daughter and he's like no but i have this letter from her mom and he's like okay go on your mom went out of her way to write a letter to send gives them permission to take me and that's probably how most pedophiles go in if they if there is any rule against a single man or something they just find like a vulnerable woman probably but all the rules are different so everything was a game with dawn and jody i said i don't want to go i don't want to get naked and jody's like it's fine we're together and then we get out of the car it's like it's a race who can get naked first you know so then it was just weird you know as usual at the nudist camp just laying out in the sun and naked people trying to not look at him but you can't help it playing tennis just whatever what happened one time, this guy was in the pool with me and kind of dunking me.
40:56And I guess it was flirtatious. Don came down to the pool angry and told me to get out and said that I was acting or something. Yeah. This was later though. This was not the first time. They had already been actively molesting me at that point. After this first experience, how did they prey on you and abuse you further? They just kept picking you up for the weekend? Yeah. Your mom just let you go spend the weekends with them? Yeah. Basically how it started was when we went to the apartment, which my mom said I had to go, and I just started going to their apartment. Same rules as Glen Eden. Once you step in, your clothes are off.
41:39Family nudist camps are quite the grooming tool. From that point, you know, I had free rain to alcohol. They made me alcoholic drinks. Jodi had me cook with her, and we gave Don drinks and cigarettes. And then really how it started was one day, Jodi was at work. I didn't like to be alone with Don, but I was. And we had just been at the mall and we're in his car. And he said, your sister said that you want to have me. And I'm horrified and like terrified at that. And I said, no, no, I don't. And I feel like I'm in trouble. like he's like your sister said you know I said no I don't want to and he's like oh it's okay you know it's all right and I said no but I don't you know like he's probably 40 39 or 40 and I am 11 and anyway I was super worried that Jodi would hate my guts so I said don't tell jody please and finally he agreed so i was afraid that jody would find out and then hate me because i just that's what children do yeah we're magical thinkers and egocentric at least till eight but older too like everything feels like it's our fault that's just the way our brains work so he said he wouldn't tell jody but we picked her up from work she pops in the truck and he says guess what?
43:08Lisa wants to have me. And I'm just horrified. And she says, Oh, okay. That's fine. I just sunk, you know? And then the next thing I remember is just them trying to talk me into actual acts, like come in the room and watch. That's apparently a big thing. you can just start by watching and then I had to scoot closer and then eventually participate more and more but it was always um you know a manipulation a grooming Jody said to me once that if I had a good father I would want to have him one of the things that he liked to do was watch a movie called pretty baby with me I listened to that part of your interview and I I think the way you were describing it initially, I was so convinced it was like a movie off the dark web.
44:06And it's very much a real movie that you can buy online for$3.99 right now. Can you tell us about Pretty Baby, the movie? Right. So, Brooke Shields, the very famous Brooke Shields, was 11 or 12 at the time. And I'll just say, she was not a developed girl at that age. She looked like a child. I'll just be explicit. it no pubic hair no breasts a child's body okay but in the movie she is the daughter of susan sarandon who is a to at a brothel i guess in new orleans and everyone's just happy and everyone just loves their job right but brooke schildz is reaching the ripe age of 12 which is where she's going to start working and so they're going to have this auction for her virginity basically and it's a whole group of just creepy men bidding on her they bring her out and like I don't I don't remember what you call it but they're holding her up on a plank or something in the movie dressed in white and looking like a child but with makeup on her and like sparklers and everyone's like, oh, this is so wonderful, you know?
45:21And Brooke Shields in the movie, I know she was a victim. Just her character is just happy about all of it. And it's great. So it doesn't show any trauma? No trauma. But then the guy that wins takes her up to the room and you see soft, basically. You don't see full, but you can tell they're having and then she's like screaming and are not screaming but wincing or whatever and then afterwards she's like a clump on the bed and you think she's traumatized right but then all the other students come in and she's like i'm fine and just kind of like she's kidding you know and it's just so great and she's totally not affected by it at all and then you see her bathing and you see her full naked body and they're talking about how they're going to keep selling her as a virgin for a while because they can and one of the Carradine's is like becomes her husband and he slaps her and you know and whatever she's playing with dolls but the whole point of the movie really is it's showing like it's totally fine you know to have at that age and make money and it doesn't bother you and so that's one of the things Don said to me um he said that he was busted for molesting his children but of course it's not molestation that's people that aren't aware of like higher laws and you know are repressed or yeah um he said he didn't harm his children at the court system harmed his children that's what harmed his children i love the quote when you say all pedophiles are philosophers they are yeah they have a complete explanation why they are living the higher law why other people are repressed Yes, they are.
47:07All pedophiles are philosophers. And he told me too, he said, you know, your mom is crazy. Like he and Jodi would like interject these things. She was, that's true. And he knew it. But they're also... Right. But also when you tell a child that, it's going to alienate them more and cause confusion. And when you're confused and you're not sure, like you're not steady, you don't know. And of course, I really, I know now I couldn't have chosen any differently, but that's how perpetrators keep people off balance. One of the ways. I know you have a change.org petition to ban Pretty Baby. I was trying to figure out how it's not already banned.
47:51Right. They say because it's artistic and she was not actively engaged in being that it's not C-SAM, which I think is insane. Because how is it? How can you justify artistic expression on that? And they won't, wouldn't make a movie like that now. Or they would get in trouble. Yeah. So he would make you watch this movie. Over and over. Just like here, come sit down. And at the time he had the projector. It started with me sitting next to him here and jody there and then he would touch us even on a camping trip we went on he brought it there was actually a couple times i can only think of one right now where i see now looking back grooming me to maybe be a prostitute well of course pretty baby right um also trying to normalize it and he was always like it would be me doing you a favor is how he framed it to be my my first you know like like it would be a chore for him and you know we're friends and we're like close so this is like the best way and you know but i was resistant i was always like i don't want to this was just something that he continued to try to do.
49:10One time we were in a city somewhere and they said, we're going to go to like pick a part or something. So you should just wait here in this park. Okay, whatever. So I'm just sitting in this park up against a tree. And then a truckload of men speaking another language start walking towards me like they park and they start walking towards me. And I'm like, And this guy, he starts speaking in Spanish. Hey, showing me his wallet. And I'm like, I don't speak Spanish. He's like, me, me, in the truck. And I'm like, freaked out. And I just said, no, no, no. And gratefully, they left. So you think they set that up?
49:59Yeah, I definitely do now. So because then I'm sitting there like, you know, like they left. I'm upset and Don and Jodi finally come back and I get in the truck and I told them what happened. And Don said, you should have done it. And how long did this go on for? From 11 to 13. So we were always naked. And there was other girls sometimes. The camera was always out. I do remember sometimes Jodi like dressing me up and something. But again, everything's a game and we're just all happy and having fun together and whatever and drinking a little bit here, smoking a little bit there. They're still molesting me.
50:36But as time went on, I saw the other girls less and less. It was just me and Dawn and Jodi a lot. One day, Dawn said that, you know, I could be a model. And I was like, I thought very low of myself. I thought I was ugly and fat. Not that there's anything wrong with whatever you weigh. But anyway, and I didn't like the idea. But he's like, no, no, like, I'm going to take you to this photographers. But also some other girls went. I know that on the way there, you hear a voice. Yeah. So again, at this time, I think I'm closer to 13. And I really didn't know anywhere I was ever going, driving, right?
51:19Except for like, right where I grew up. I knew that area. Anyway, I'm just in the back of the pickup truck, just going to those photographers, even though I didn't want to. I did. I heard a voice that said, Lisa, memorize how to get there. I just kind of shrugged it off like that was weird. Then I heard it again. Lisa, memorize how to get there. And it just felt like really kind and like do it, you know sort of like really please do it and so I did I just I looked out opened up the little shell window and I'm like memorizing like it's this is in Santa Ana California 14th street 7th street like I'm memorizing and then we pull up and it's like this two-story office building with the doors almost like a hotel it's kind of ugly so we all race up you know because it's a game they open the door and this guy is sitting behind this desk and he had a rubik's cube so i said hey can i play with your rubik's cube and he just like coldly met my eyes with his and didn't say anything but just like this really uncomfortable you know like it made me just like look away and i just sat down so the pictures were just not naked or anything and we got over that i would say the next week well before that happened I was alone in the apartment Don and Jody and I heard him talking on the phone with this guy and he said Lisa will do nude pictures I said because it seemed surprising to me for some reason I said no I won't and Don turned and looked at me like you know any you know because he's on the phone with the photographer and he said you know sit down and he's usually trying to be a mr.
53:10nice fun guy and that that was it But then later that week at school, detectives came to my school to interview me. Don and Jodi had gotten busted. At the time, they had what's called photomat.
53:26Yeah. You used to have to turn in your film to get pictures developed. And he turned in the pictures of his victims. Yeah, probably. He thought this is completely normal. I guess. Or was it an accident? I mean, that's what I heard. I'm not 100%, but I think I read that in a police report or something. So the police come to the school. They ask you questions about Dawn and Jodi. And then your mom comes. By this point, she already knew that the police were talking to you. Well, like usually I rode my bike to school. But yeah, that day she was picking me up. And they had asked questions and asked me why my mom let me go.
54:03And I said, well, I had to go. She told me I had to go. He said, you're going to go to a shelter home, which I didn't really understand. again at the time that it was because they were suspicious of my mom and gonna put me somewhere safe I guess she came in the office and I'm walking out I guess to go to the shelter home she like grabs me and hugs me why didn't you tell me why didn't you tell me and tell you what like I didn't think about it at the time but obviously I remembered like all the stuff you did with me You know, like obviously she was just trying to look good in front of the police officers and like she never hugged me before.
54:43They're arrested. Did you have any feelings in that moment? I felt guilty. I felt sad. I felt confused. So that was the feeling in the moment. When did it change? When did you feel like I shouldn't feel this way? Did it take years? Yeah, it took years. in this shelter home you get in there and the girls are like what are you in here for oh i was beaten oh i was molested and i'm like what am i in here for i don't know you know but we concluded i was molested well i had found out about the photographer at this point and i thought what does that mean they don't love me what exactly happened to the photographer he was taking photos of kids yeah so when i was first put in the shelter home like the next day i was interviewed by orange county detectives one of the detectives somehow it's just me and him in a room and he said do you happen to know where this photographer is and how i even knew to ask the questions right or find me or anything else um i don't know but he said don and jody don't know where this photographer is and i was like i remembered I memorized how to get there.
55:59And before I could say that, he said that he was known for killing kids. Killing kids? Yeah. He literally told me a girl was found in a dumpster and a boy was tied to a chair. My whole life, I was like, it feels like I'm making it up when I say it, you know? Years later, the detective that, one of the detectives was very kind to me, but I called him years later and I asked him about it. Did you know? And he said, yes, I did. But I knew he was a snuff filmmaker, but I didn't want you, I don't want to burden you anymore. That detective in the room told me that. And then I said, I know how to get there.
56:45And you took them there? You guys were in the car, drove there? He said, let's go right away. And I said, turn here, turn here. I tried to look at it last time I was in Santa Ana. or on the map remember yeah but i i would if i saw it if it was still there but we literally all three of us two detectives and me go up to the studio door they just let you go to the door they did and they knocked on it and i i'm thinking at this point what if he sees me or could he kill me someday but nobody answered and they didn't try to break down the door they didn't do anything they just took note and we left i'm so sorry so when don and jody would were on the phone talking about, oh, you will do the photos.
57:28That was him that they were talking to. What was the timeline of that and then when they were arrested? Like a week. And they were trying to sell photos? I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I was reading his file, Don Gordon, and they were saying that when he was let out briefly on parole, he had made friends with another child molester in the hospital. That's another place, yeah. And then went to a nudist camp together afterwards, after they were both released, and competed to see how many children they could molest. Wow. Years later, when I'm a new mom, out of the blue, Orange County contacts me and asks me to testify on behalf of Dawn's newest victim.
58:16Now, from 13 to 23, I don't know if I was 23 or 24, but that would be about 10 years. He only got 10 years. It turns out he didn't even serve 10 years. He only served like five, because probably good behavior. They're always on good behavior when your chosen victim isn't with you. They asked me to testify on behalf of his newest victim. Ended up, he pled, and they said I didn't have to. But that was a complete re-triggering. I did end up going to court. Was he in the courtroom? Yeah. That was your first time seeing him since? Since, yeah. What was that like? It was scary. I didn't ever want him to see me again.
58:54That was the big thing. So it took them weeks after they asked me to do it to tell me that he pled. And that's really, really triggering, really activating. We went to court anyway just to have a completion process, I guess. I just kind of hid behind my husband and he looked over in our direction, but I don't think he saw me or I don't know if they use my name even maybe maybe I knew at the time, but but I don't think he would have been expecting me to show up necessarily that time. So there's a point where you move and then you run into Jodi. Yeah, I actually ran into her once in Riverside. And I did ask her, are you still molesting children?
59:45when i'm pissed i'm thinking clear no you know by that time i've been training in martial arts come on jody i'm an adult now now what you know that's how i felt but she's like oh lisa and then whatever she just said oh lisa yeah like you're just asking her a normal question yeah like silly you um then later we moved from riverside and we're living in apple valley the day after we move into Apple Valley, I see her at the grocery store in the grocery store parking lot. Did she see you? Did you say anything this time? No. So like I'm flipped out. I have my toddler in the backseat and I just park more strategically and I wait.
1:00:30I'm going to follow her because like, is she my neighbor? Did I just move in where she's next to me or something? And you have kids now? Yeah. She lost me. I don't think she knew I was following her, but I don't know the streets. I couldn't keep up with her. But I had heard about Megan's Law. So I asked my friend to go with me. And at the time, Megan's Law did not give address, only zip code. And you had to go to the sheriff's. So I went there. I said Jody Jones, Jody Gordon, because they got married after they got busted for me. You can't testify against your spouse. That's crazy. I thought they were married before.
1:01:10They got married basically in jail. yeah, how do they even get to do that anyway? Yeah, it's crazy. They can do all kinds of things, right? So that they wouldn't have to testify against each other. Okay. Anyway, the lady at the Megan's Law Sheriff Station said, no, I don't see her. And I said, but she's supposed to, but when I was a child, I was molested by her and Don Gordon. And she's like, well, let's look up him. Donald Lee Gordon. It wouldn't come up Don Gordon. And she's like, kind of looked at me and she's like, where did you just move from? Atalanto. There's a lot of kids. And so this lady's like, okay, well, I'll get his parole officer to contact you.
1:01:54So we meet up. He got mad at me that I lived in the high desert and didn't tell them, but he's not supposed to be within 25 miles of a victim. But they don't even alert you. They just expect you to constantly Well, I don't, I mean, I think it's supposed to be different now. And maybe it was supposed to be different then. But nobody ever told me anything at all ever that I should let them know where I live or that they're going to tell me when he gets out. Like, that's supposed to be part of victims' rights now. But he was kind of a jerk. But at the time, I'm, like, sort of freaked out because I still think about the photographer a bit.
1:02:34And Don, I have little kids. And so I asked the parole officer, can you please just search him just on the off chance? Yeah. Less than 1%. Okay. Maybe it's less than 1%. But that Don knows I'm in Atalanta or was in Atalanta or what I look like now or what my kids look like if he has a picture. Yeah. You know? And I feel like I must sound crazy when I'm asking him. But I asked him. He can search him anytime. Anytime he wants. And he said, okay, I will. but a couple I don't know a week two weeks go by I don't hear anything so I asked him and he said no I didn't search him and I always think man he should have just lied to me and said yeah I didn't find anything but I don't recommend lying but he just like no I didn't and I'm getting more and more upset I'm crying I'm like but you said and I just wanted the off chance just in case I just wanted some relief and you know he's just a jerk and then so I said well I want to speak to your supervisor and then I give the supervisor the story and he says you know you really need therapy yeah I appreciate your shocked reaction yeah I wanted to say no it really a hike but also how condescending right?
1:04:15So all those negative interactions are happening. And then some angel police officer, because I probably got on the phone and I was calling around, gives me Jodi's address. At the time, I was going to school to be a therapist, right? I went to school over many years, one class at a time. She lived near the college, so she wasn't living where he was in Atalanta. But not only did Jodi live by the college, but I would run into, I literally ran into her in the doctor's office. But this time, I didn't go up to her anytime. And I had my kids, and she in the doctor's office was with an old person. She was an in-home healthcare aid.
1:04:56and you're not supposed to do that as a registered defender but I also ran into her in Walmart and so anyway the Victorville Police Department said okay we're gonna go and check on her and I said she is supposed to be a registered defender and she wasn't just in the kitchen baking cookies she was very involved and she should have had a second strike with that victim that I was to testify against in my 20s and in california at the time i don't know now but would have had a third strike not being a registered defender yeah but they they tell me no she didn't realize she was supposed to be a registered offender she didn't realize it or she forgot or yeah i'm like no no so you were going to school to be a therapist what was the reason for your decision is it to help yourself help someone else yeah i mean both like i did start you know when i got really bad postpartum depression and all my trauma came out and i started to go to therapy out of desperation i became clean and sober because i spent my whole childhood drinking smoking methamphetamines and stuff and at 18 i got clean but then i started to crave again when all the trauma started to come out And I'm like, so I started doing 12 steps.
1:06:21And then I went to therapy. I actually got in an abuse recovery group, which was very helpful. And I realized I wanted to be a therapist. But also, like I knew in my heart, like I didn't want to do what the molesters wanted. It didn't feel right. But I didn't have the words to explain it. I didn't have the science, you know, like I needed to unindoctrinate myself from all of that. and gratefully it was never a temptation of me to be a molester um i had a natural instinct to protect you know but i didn't know how to explain why they were wrong i definitely went for that to find really the best way to heal the fastest bestest way to heal in the process though i'm always kind of like arguing with god because i felt like go go be a therapist lisa i'm like but no, I can't.
1:07:16You have the wrong person. I used to have such bad anxiety. I couldn't even look people in the eye. Oh, that was me. I had such a hard day. Martial arts helped a lot with that. Actually, it's one of the top trauma treatments. Really? Martial arts? Judith Herman wrote Trauma and Recovery and she talks about it. I just listened to Gabor Mate talk about it too or somebody else. But one reason is like you are now in charge of the violent situation and you're you're rewiring your nervous system, basically. I guess that's the other reason to you're rewiring your nervous system. But also you gain some confidence like, well, maybe I could take care of someone.
1:08:00Some people, maybe not everyone, but that person. But I grew up fighting, getting beaten up on. And my brother told me to beat up this person or there was always like a fight. And so in my brain, it's like, always going to come down to a fight. I have to remind myself, I won't necessarily, but it's always there. Like, it's going to come down to a fight. Going back a little bit, I know in your previous interview that you've done before, you were saying how there was a time where you thought that maybe you would take care of Jodi yourself when you saw her. Yeah. Yeah. So, so martial arts did help me feel like I was probably too confident.
1:08:43But you know, I was young in my 20s. I had all this rage. I learned that all this depression and irritability, which nobody named it PTSD at the time, but I was always like, this is it PTSD? Yeah. But I, you know, anger or anger turned inwards is depression. and you got to put the anger and the feelings where they belong that doesn't mean you confront people or it doesn't mean you beat them up or anything you can journal it out you can visualize it right anyway when i started to feel depressed i just assumed i guess i'm feeling angry and and so jody don whoever my parents journal i journal journal journal i didn't want to nobody ever wants to at first no none of my clients not none of them but a lot of people don't want to journal but it's like it's really helpful if you can't do anything else what happened with jody is she did have to register as a pender girl okay so then now she's on megan's law but i still am running into her my emotional state was questionable at times and i would feel you know the ptsd depression rage and so i thought you know let me just take care of it i actually called my husband once like circling Jodi's house like I could um just take her out because she's going to reoffend I told the Victorville police she's gonna she'll do it on her own without Dawn and they're just like whatever so I imagined that I could kill her a couple different ways you know and that I'm no good anyway I'm screwed up you know what do I think I'm doing being a therapist I'm not a good mom not a good wife like let me just kill her and then you guys you can move on you know i'll be in prison and you know because i just lose my mind half the time with the situation but um i didn't you know thou shalt not kill right um but i did indulge in some fantasies a few times killing her my dad my mom or torturing him or whatever and i'm not saying that's totally unhealthy like there can be a healthy element to that you know don't act on it don't follow through necessarily right necessarily you shouldn't kill people okay but um anyway the feelings need to go where they belong.
1:11:19And so I'm glad I didn't act on it, but she did re-offend. Yeah, I found out on Megan's Law. So it was while she was in the high desert. I forget the exact name of the charge, but with a teen. So then I tried to call because I'm pissed a lot, right? And I'm just going to call people. They didn't call back, of course. But I said, she re-offended. Look at that. But I could check on Megan Saw and then she disappeared from Megan Saw. How? Well, first, I'm like, she's from Illinois. Let me see. Yeah. She was in Illinois and her charges were lower. I call them and I said, she's high risk. Just so you know, oh, the lady was nice.
1:12:03Oh, I really appreciate you letting me know. I'll do it. But I can, but nothing was ever done. But then she disappears off Megan Saw again. And another perpetrator, another case, Glenn Lowe, that in my teenage years, I also, that was a situation, was on Megan Saw. Glenn, Dawn, and Jodi, it gave me a certain sense of some control. Like, I know where they live. I'm not going to move next to them. But Glenn and Jodi got off Megan Saw. A loophole. They might have to register. I don't know, though. Why would I know? Why would anybody tell me anything? But they won't show up on the public registry. I've heard people say, that poor guy, he was only urinating in public and got on Megan's Law.
1:12:48No, no. It's really hard to prosecute anybody for any offenses. So many perpetrators get off scot-free. I would be shocked if anybody's on Megan's Law because they were urinated in public. Those are stories people tell. Did you confront your dad about any of this? I did. Yeah. Back in my 20s, I realized, okay, he didn't protect me. So anyway, I'm just trying to confront anyone I could. So I told him about John, which he, you know, told me don't make a big deal, right? But whatever, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. And he said, you had quite an extensive sex life.
1:13:37I'm just like, standing there. And then he said, and children under the age of three don't remember. So for me, like we talked about memory, I have some memories, and I'm not so sure a little, I don't know. It's in that category. I don't know. I can't say, but I'll heal it anyway. I'll do inner child work. I'll have compassion for that part. I'll trust my body, right? But I don't know for sure. But so when he said that, it's like, what is he confessing? Anyway, I wouldn't put it past him that he did something to me and my siblings when we were little. he molested my brother and another high school teacher at the same high school got busted for molesting at the time i know it seems silly thinking back now but unindoctrinating myself and seeing my parents for who they really are took a took a long time i called my dad when this mr just left my brain anyway he was a drama teacher at ramona got busted.
1:14:45It was in the newspaper. I said, Dad, Mr. got busted for molesting a boy, you know, like outrage. My dad said, like, he's mad at the system. He said, every boy, every teenage boy is going to get masturbated sometime. What men do with young men sort of thing. Like it's totally fine and normal. My dad would say very bizarre things to me throughout my adulthood and um i didn't leave my children alone with him ever and eventually i did cut off the relationship but when um my dad was in a relationship with a man jot um indonesian guy and he was really nice and i was always like why is it with my dad but anyway um when jot died he had diabetes like type 1 my dad was heartbroken my husband and i went into la and cleaned out his apartment actually read the eulogy for my dad because he couldn't do it and it was all gay men and buddhist monks and but what we found in his apartment was file material somebody said don't say nambla but nambla north american man boy love association um apparently they're they're still going strong and very um retaliatory but there was that material in the apartment and also like a daddy son magazine or i looked at it and it's all about weird fantasies of yeah bio material so do you believe child was also part of i mean i don't know.
1:16:32I'd like to think not, but he was doing something weird with my dad. I don't know if he was file, you know, they were super, super concerned if we were circumcising our son or not. Yeah. That's a very strange. Oh, because, um, it'll reduce pleasure or something. Like according to them. And I believe like the worst thing we could do is your dad still alive. No. Okay. And I know that you said that you were very triggered when your mom passed. Did you ever get to confront her or no? I did, actually. So I know this is hard to hear, okay? But going back to Larry, Larry, that memory that I don't remember so well, going in with my mom and Larry and then the end, the end was I had a vibrator.
1:17:24larry gave me my mom whatever so when i confronted my mom i was in the backyard and again i'm sort of like i don't care who hears i was in it and i said mom why why did you let larry give me a vibrator at five and she's like you know like the neighbors were out and i i just got louder but that's really it other than um there was always my mom was always kicking me out even as a little girl and give me my baby but get out you're not my daughter anymore like always that sort of thing and as an adult too okay you're no longer my daughter blah blah all these letters and um it was just like exhausting you know and I was trying to be a good Christian I didn't know what the right thing to do was.
1:18:18And you honor your mother and father. What does that mean? But my family needs to come first. It's always a trigger. So I did end up cutting off the relationship with her, finally. I mean, obviously, I'm very naive, I guess. But before both of them passed, there was no, I mean, you're their daughter. There was no apology. There was no. Never. The last words my dad said to me was that I was an asshole. But on my mom's deathbed, I did go visit her. And I visited my dad. Ironically, they couldn't speak. Also, I didn't say anything mean. Being a therapist, do you feel like there are certain situations or patients that trigger you and that you would recommend or refer to a different therapist?
1:19:09Or has it almost been like a dual healing process? Well, it is healing for me to always reiterate self-regulation, inner child work. Like it's always being, you know, like reminding myself. But I don't really get tricked. I mean, I can't say not at all. I definitely can relate to a lot of clients. I couldn't see a predator. It's really never come across. I've never had that opportunity. Maybe in mental health, like community mental health. I may have seen a s*** offender and not known it, but I would not choose or put myself out there as a s*** offender therapist. Have you tried to reconnect or look up where Raymond is at since then?
1:19:54Well, so Raymond left my mom when I was 12 because he couldn't deal with her anymore. But we reconnected in adulthood. What? Yeah, I have pictures of him with my sons. Yeah. Did you like look him up? I think my sister kept in touch somehow with him. And then I don't remember the initial me getting involved, but he lived in one of the times in Compton. That was the whole story. But we went and saw him there. And then in Long Beach, he lived. And then he came and stayed with us in Apple Valley for a while. And my kids see him as the best grandparent for sure. Is he still around? No, he did pass away, too.
1:20:39But he was in his 80s. Yeah. And so he still called me vanilla and sugar. And my kids call him chocolate grandpa. That's so cute. You wrote a book. When did you start writing it? Well, it felt like from early on I should write a book. I was like, why do I feel that way? You know, maybe it's just, maybe am I attention seeking? No, it's healing, right? But journaling, the journaling turned to the idea of a book, like I'll make this a book someday. But then I got to the point where I like, you know, I think it was for my own healing. But then the feeling kept coming back, write a book, right? So I was trying, but ADHD and or just I'm not a natural writer.
1:21:27I don't know. I didn't get it. I know I have a master's degree, but I didn't get a good high school education. I failed out of junior high and high school. I did not earn my diploma, but I'm glad they gave it to me. I found a coach editor that has been helping me write, and I've just been refining it. But you are looking to hopefully release it? Because I know a lot of people say when they read about other survivors' experiences, they feel less alone, and maybe they haven't gone through the process of talking to someone about it. Yeah, I did that a lot, too. Oh, you did? Yeah, I read a lot of memoirs and stuff, and I did feel validated and curious.
1:22:07also in my memoir it's also a narrative nonfiction where I'm incorporating a therapist voice oh that's very cool okay so it's a little Lisa telling her what she needed to know it's a that's a big part of healing getting in touch with your inner child you know and rescuing them okay so as people are reading it it's like they can also feel and see the steps to healing maybe more clearly is that some of it yeah like i'm gonna have to write another book too because i was trying to write like two books at once but yeah it's informational you know because it's really important for people to understand what consent is and that you can't consent when your brain isn't fully developed you could be an einstein genius child but you still can't consent because emotional development and all of that is different from IQ.
1:23:02Do we have any time frame or just any range? Possibly January. Okay. They're going to send alerts. They're going to be emailing you. Okay, yeah, and I will definitely put it on social media, on my website and all my other social media. I'm just not sure which publisher yet, and I'm doing some final touches. Another thing that really helped me, thinking about the protective factors, people um whatever good you can inject in a child's life doesn't have to be about abuse and trauma but like help children dream and believe that they can do what they want to do whatever that is and like there's good things to come and i always held on to hope that there was something good to come and that even when I the depression and everything hit me believing the therapist like you'll get through it and there's good to come always having something positive to focus on not toxic positivity allowing people to express and heal and get into that rage and feel it all and do what you need to do but know that you'll come out of it and keep a visualization of yourself, where you want to be, what that feels like, what that looks like.
From the publisher
Family nudist camps. They’re real and exist today. Children are 100% allowed. Clothes are not.
A lot of people wonder if it’s uncomfortable for children, which one camp addresses in their website’s FAQs:
Q: Are children forced to be nude?
A: The word “forced” is an emotionally loaded word that suggests unreasonable force or other inappropriate coercion… Most children are very comfortable with nudity until they are taught otherwise by society. With young naturist children, it’s just as likely that parents “force” them to wear bathing suits when visiting municipal pools where bathing suits are mandatory.”
This is where Donald Gordon and his other pedophile friends would make bets to see who could molest the most amount of kids. These were his hunting grounds.
But Don didn’t need to ‘hunt’ for the little girl that accompanied him because he was already friends with her parents.
Her parents were pedophiles as well and introduced their youngest daughter to them.
Lisa was just 11 years old when Don started abusing her; frequently taking her to these family nudist camps where she was preyed upon by others.
This is Lisa’s story.
Full shows notes at rottenmangopodcast.com
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