We Sat Down W/ Someone Who Went To The Same Jail As Diddy & Luigi - The Truth About MDC Brooklyn

33:06It's very dramatic, very powerful, but it is part of life. Do you guys know what happened? to the guy? I mean, I don't suspect any kind of foul play or anything like that. I mean, I think he died of medical, natural causes. And you were a theater director, right? Mm-hmm. And now you're sitting inside MDC in this giant box that never turns off with 120 men. Yeah. You're withdrawing from all the drugs you were on. Have you had moments of thinking from, you know, where your life were going to here you are in this situation? How was that contrast and how bad did it get for you mentally? Well, listen, I mean, I had some very dark weeks and months.

33:54It probably took me a while to sort of get into a routine where I was functioning well. Certainly, there was intense amount of despair, humiliation, rage, sorrow. It really felt like the end of the world and there'd be days where I'd wake up and my whole body is just like baking in resentment and shame and Very intense feelings mind going a mild minute rumination rage about the past terror about the future So that was very intense period of time and that lasted quite a while How long did it take you to finally get your life turned around, I guess, when you decided to do something about it? Oh, well, I mean, that sort of happened in stages.

34:47You know, certainly in the context of the jail, I got into a routine. I was able to write letters. I actually did edits on a musical book, a play that had a read. While I was in jail, I sent edits. There was a reading done of something I wrote at the York Theater on the Upper East Side. so I was able to stay creative I worked on some other project projects started on a play lots of letters so and I got in shape I lost weight I um exercised I you know prayed I read I did everything I could to function well I learned how to eat I was able to like make a little uh financial deal with one of the Muslims on the unit who got fresh vegetables, called a common fair tray, and I would pay him in stamps.

35:38So I figured out how to get fresh vegetables, figure out how to eat a little healthy. So I got into a routine even in that room. So that was step one. Can you actually, we're going to get into the food in a moment because we're very curious about that. Can you walk us through exactly from the moment you wake up, the day, hour by hour, what does that look like? My day? Okay, great. So I wake up. I'm an early bird, one of the very few. And in fact, thankfully, I'm very happy to say I got a job. And my job was the really, there were a few early morning jobs. Two guys served the quote unquote breakfast.

36:17And my job was to wipe down all the glass surfaces. So there weren't, it's not windows really to the outside, but glass surfaces on doors, to the hallway between little rooms. And my job is to wipe those down every morning, which took about 45 minutes to an hour. So I would eat something, make some coffee. I would go about and most everyone else is sleeping. And the way I wiped them down, I had a little cleaning bottle and I had socks that I cut in half and had a little sock on my hand. And I went glass surface by glass surface and that was my job i think i was paid like 25 cents an hour

37:08but having a job meant i got a slightly better piece of chicken on chicken day which was a very big deal back then is it because you purchased the chicken or they no no it's just what you know one day a week they serve chicken and that's like the the one piece of like healthy fresh protein and so you want to have an in with the guy serving the chicken so that you get the best possible piece of chicken and since i had a job and since actually i was pretty popular believe it or not and uh i had a good piece of chicken and so i had that job so after i was done with that then I would usually cross the hall to that little concrete space and I would exercise and thankfully thankfully on the commissary I was able to buy a little amfm radio and that was my lifeline do you remember how much it cost I don't I want to say like 35 55 dollars I forget wow so that means you have to work well no well i had thankfully my family put money on my commissary account so like that allowed me to buy shoes shoes and the radio were the lifesaver when i got those shoes the first time because the shoes they gave me were just agonizing my feet were like in horrible shape i was in a lot of pain and when the shoes came oh i felt like i mean i was just floating.

38:36I felt like I was floating. I was so thrilled. What kind of shoes? Some tennis shoes. I forget which. But I was so thrilled to get those shoes. I felt like a million bucks. Because most of the days you're wearing this tan onesie all day during quote-unquote business hours. You could get into sweatpants and stuff. But during the work hours, you wear the tan onesie. And the And the shoes, I felt like a million bucks. But then you get the radio. Now, the radio was everything to me. And it's New York City, so a lot of great radio. So I could listen to commercial radio, listen to public radio, listen to music, all kinds of different music.

39:19And just hearing, honestly, at the beginning, just hearing the English language, you know, the radio, because there wasn't a ton of it on my unit. I mean, there was quite a bit. But hearing, you know, serious commentary, news, business, information, that radio was everything to me. And so I'd go across and I'd listen to the radio. And it was 2008, so it was during the Obama campaign. And I'm like super into it. And presidential year, so I'd walk in circles in that little room, listen to the radio, basically until lunch. And at the beginning when I was there, I got basically all of my food through the main line.

40:02But over time, I looked, I noticed, I observed people who were eating better and how they did it and how they assembled items on the commissary, fresh vegetables from the common fair tray. And I figured out how to make better food for myself. And I had a shift, a shift. There was one microwavable Tupperware container that floated from person to person so they could heat up their alternative concocted meals. And I had like a shift where the Tupperware container came to me. I'd throw in the vegetables, the mackerel fish, whatever else I could, heat in the microwave, eat it, wash it, and pass that little beaten up.

40:48It was so beaten up, this plastic little object that had fed who knows how many people over how many years circulating. It looked like, you know, it looked like something you'd pick out of the rubble of Chernobyl. I mean, it really looked rough. And I had my shift, and I would eat, and then I'd wash it and hand the Tupperware tray to the next guy. But, you know, I figured out how to eat. It took me a long time. It took me months for my brain to kind of readjust and function again. I had done such harm to my brain with illegal drugs, legal pharmaceuticals, benzos, and then the concussion. I was in horror.

41:35But eventually, I started. I could feel my brain coming back online, and I figured out how to adapt. so that's the the little trait you've just shared that trait every single day every single day i get the little the guy with my friend uh uh bring me the little this is a little tupperware container you know just like like a little storage thing microwavable and it just passed around it allowed people to mix various food items together and there was a microwave oven on our unit and people would prepare little dishes for themselves. Wow. And my turn, yeah. Okay, so after lunch, what's the recipe?

42:14After lunch, for the most part, once it had passed midday, then I was just reading. The other thing I would do in the morning, it would be write. Write letters all by hand, write notes. And that was mostly in the mornings because once the afternoons came around, it was very hard to get a tabletop, Very hard to get a flat surface because those were sort of taken over by other men eating, playing cards, playing dominoes. Those big dominoes games are slapping the dominoes down. And so it's hard to get a flat surface to like eat on or write on. So that was mostly during the day. So in the afternoons, often would read the newspaper.

42:58God bless my father. He sent me his New York Times subscription. so I'm the reading the New York Times and sometimes I'd see like some of my Harvard friends in New York Times one guy like became a senator another guy's a federal judge another and some of my theater friends I'd see their shows you know and uh was it emotionally hard to see those I laugh looking back because it was just such a wild experience at the time look it was hard of course it was hard but it was what it was it was reality it was a reality that I participated in creating. It was where I was. So a lot of New York Times reading, a lot of book reading, a lot of conversations.

43:42Sometimes I would go because there'd be a sort of daily afternoon kind of Bible study-ish type of where the Christians would convene and maybe look at a Bible passage or pray. Sometimes I would join them. And then once the evening rolls around, I just started to wind down. Is there a dinner? Oh, yeah. Well, of course, yes. The mainline dinner comes along. When you say mainline dinner. Right, right. Thanks. So mainline is sort of just the slang term or the term for like when food is served. They open a little, you know, on the unit in that single room. A little opening would open in the quote unquote little kitchen area.

44:24And they would serve food through that little opening. Counter here, little opening. other inmates there in gloves, mask, hairnet, all that. And the food would roll down on these big sort of wagons and served by certain inmates to the others. Trays come along, line up, get the food. And most people would eat that way. I would often eat that way. But towards the end, I really depended on my own little concoctions and mostly just ate one meal a day. So you're saying you don't take the plate anymore? By the end, I might get little bits here and there. But by the end, I'd sort of learned how to prepare slightly better, slightly healthier food for myself.

45:08How bad is the food? What exactly are they serving? Oh, gosh. Well, it's really a wide range. I want to start with the positive. I have to say, I have to respect the people who work there. It's a very hard place to work. It's a very impossible assignment. That facility is very stressful. So I'm going to emphasize the positive. Holiday meals, they did a great job. They did a great, I mean, they really put an effort. What's the holiday meals? Thanksgiving, Christmas, 4th of July, they were the main ones. And they really made such a difference. I think there was a Cornish hen for Christmas, turkey for Thanksgiving, a lot of trimmings.

45:46So those special meals, I think there was hot dogs or barbecue or something on 4th of July. They made an effort and I appreciated it, I will say. Anyone who's looking, thank you for that. You know, the fresh chicken, the chicken day, that was probably the best. If you're really lucky, you know, you get the breast with the leg attached and all of that. But they're not all like that. Sometimes you get a thigh. Sometimes they're little pieces. I mean, people get very emotional of how the quality of their chicken piece. And, you know, if you're the guy serving and you have a grudge of somebody, you might give them a very lousy piece of chicken.

46:20And that's war right there. That's war right there. Would that start a fight? I mean, it could. It could. But I don't know if I saw anything over that. But that would be definitely a source of resentment. Because remember, there's some guys who've been on that unit for years. And some guys on that unit have known each other, two cousins, all of that. And then you have other guys who are just passing through two or three days or passing through and they might have some rivalry from the street with someone else on that unit. Not too often. But so there's a mix of people. And if you're just off the street, you've been there for three days.

46:55and you feel like someone has shown you disrespect of some kind, that can create tension and occasionally physical altercation. Are those bad? Do you see blood? I saw a few. As I said, for the most part, there was pressure not to have those fights. And when those fights teed off, for the most part, people would come and take them apart. Because I think there was an understanding that when two men have committed to that fight, you cannot back down without losing face. And so it was the sort of duty of everyone around you knowing you can't back down to either stop it before it happened or to pull you off each other.

47:41But there were a few. And fights just pop off. Fights pop off. They pop off in jail. They pop up on the subway. They pop off on the sidewalk. Fights happen. They pop off on sports fields and sometimes they pop off and they could be pretty brutal. I mean, there's one fight I saw. Both guys I like, nice guys, but something, and they had been like friends and friendly for weeks and months, but something snapped. They got into it and the bigger guy beat the other guy out of his clothes. I mean, the guy was just destroyed. I think by the end, he had maybe his underwear left and they had to drag him out.

48:17So things pop off could, you know. Is there a solitary confinement? Oh, yeah. It's called Special Housing Unit and Protective Custody. They're a different version. So some people might end up for a long while in a solitary cell for disciplinary issues, for violence, for rule violations. They use it for discipline. And some people might end up there if they're a high-profile prisoner that needs extra protection. I'm assuming you've never been. And have you heard from other guys who got in there or came out of there? Oh, sure. Oh, sure. I mean, listen, I had a few days, not many. I had a few days where it was basically on lockdown.

49:02This is in the medical intake unit on lockdown by myself in a cell, except for mealtimes. And that is brutal. It is brutal. And I just what it does to the human brain. We're not designed to be in that kind of isolation. It's not healthy. I understand for safety reasons it has to be done sometimes, but it's tough. And I had people I knew well who had a violation of some kind, were dragged off to the shoe. Not dragged. That's not fair. And firmly escorted to the isolation. And they come back, you know, weeks later, months later, ashen, thinner, because there's nothing to do all day. 23-hour lockdown.

49:47and you would see it took a while being around other people to start looking healthy again wow and that was just part of being in a facility like that you say months look some people would probably spend their entire time in a room like that um i didn't know anybody i mean i knew people who went there for i mean i want to say typically it's like six six weeks or so but maybe a few or longer. I would tell you something that was the most amazing thing. You could always tell when someone was about to go home that someone found out something about their case or they knew they were about to get out the next day.

50:25And as soon as they heard that news, you'd see the gray, ashen face. Color would come back. I remember this one guy, he found out he was getting out the next day. I forget what reason, but it was like he was 20 years younger, like that. Life just rushed back. And I remember, because I didn't know I was getting out until about eight hours before, I found out the evening before the next day. And as soon as I got off the phone, I walked back to my bunk and they said, you're getting out. I can see it on your face. Because, you know, that rush of life, you know, came back and it was visible on me too.

51:04Wow. No, we're going to get into that in a second. I'm very curious about your whole experience reentering it. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, going back to the food. Oh, yeah. You said that, you know, the type of food that was being served, and then you start making your own food. And how did you get the fresh vegetable again? I can tell you exactly. So they provide basically vegetarian trays and other special meals for people that have, but basically for vegetarians. Now, again, this is a while ago. I assume it's that way still, but this was me in 2008. They had something called, quote-unquote, a common fair tray, which basically had fresh vegetables.

51:46And that was pretty common for Muslims who had certain restrictions on the kind of meat they could eat. And so, and other, I think, some other religious groups. I think there was a Hindu guy who had a common fair tray. And had I known, I would have requested that when I got there. but so i just made a deal with somebody who had gotten a common fair tray and i paid him in stamps and so i would get his lunch tray and that lunch tray um gave me basically two meals worth of fresh vegetables and i would mix that in from the little mackerel fish the little max as they call them and any other kind of like seasonings anything i could get off of the um commissary and I get my Tupperware and heat it up and eat it.

52:31That is incredible. You know, we read that SBF in a report, he said that he's vegan and I'm assuming this is what he's on. Are you saying that the common fair trait provides healthier and better food than normal? Well, I mean, it's sort of limited as I recall. You know, I just remember it being sort of uncooked vegetables. Such as? Oh gosh. Carrots, I guess, celery. I don't remember because I just chopped up whatever was there and threw it into the tray. The chopper was, I can explain exactly what the chopper was, was you'd ask somebody who'd gotten Pringles. And you'd say, when you're done with the Pringles, can I have your Pringles tube?

53:14And they'd say yes. And you'd say, thank you, thank you. And you'd take the bottom of the Pringles tube and you'd bend it back and forth until you had a little surface. And so that half bottom of Pringles tube is how I chop my vegetables. Wow. Now, you don't want to be caught with that because that would be contraband. But I think a lot of the corrections officers, if they saw you chopping vegetables, would leave you alone. Wow. Look, you got to live. You adapt to survive. You adapt, adapt, adapt. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's very fascinating. What kind of other, I guess, weapons you've seen? You know, thankfully, I didn't see.

53:51I mean, I do know that before I got on that unit, a few weeks or months earlier, my friend who came up and saw me and said, oh, I know you from the street. He told me that a few weeks or months earlier, there was actually a conflict between two ethnic groups. And there was sort of like a planned, you know, for lack of a better word, rumble for the West Side Story fans out there. And he said he knew there was trouble because all the men from those two groups were all wearing their shoes to bed. And that they had all taken their locks, because you could have a lock, order a lock off the commissary to lock up your little locker.

54:31And they'd all taken the locks off, put them in socks, and put their shoes on and waited for their opportunity. I think, let me tell you what I think it was, but I don't know for sure. Don't quote me. One of the corrections officers would go help the other unit on the same hallway do their count on the other unit. So they had this like 20, 15 minute window where there was there were still cameras everywhere, but there was no physical officer on the unit. And when they saw their moment, they, again, this is secondhand, I didn't see this myself, jumped out of their bunks and basically had kind of a little battle until officials came down and broke it up.

55:19And most of the unit, most every one of the unit was taken to the special housing unit, put in isolation for, or in little two-man cells for a while. they you know interviewed all of them and slowly most of the people came back wow yeah look it's just life it's just life it's earth it's just planet earth normal stuff i found this little image online that that has a list of the jobs oh yeah that are available oh yeah and how much they're paid oh yeah and the pay range from 12 cents to 40 cents do everybody want a job in there and are there a difference in the jobs? Are some of them more desirable than the other?

56:01How do you even get a job? So yes, listen, these are, again, this is just earth and people. So there are some people who want to work, some people don't. There are various range of jobs. Some are more desirable than others and people get them through various ways. So I got mine because, you know, the inmate who is sort of head of the, you know, cleanup crew, the head of the cadres on our unit, They didn't call them cadres. Another word for it. Trustees or something. Inmate workers, a crew on our unit. He saw me. He just approached me. He saw that I was up in the morning. He saw it as a morning person and said, do you want a job?

56:40This is the job in the morning. And I said, yes, I was dying for a job. I was dying just to have a task. Even though it was like putting little socks, puppet-like hands and wiping down glass surfaces. I was so thrilled to have a job. I was there during the pretrial period, but some people do their whole sentence at these detention facilities, and they go in as a cadre, and their jobs in some ways are better. So somebody might do their whole year-long sentence there and work as a welder or work in the big kitchen downstairs or have a job that has a little more responsibility, a little bit more freedom of movement.

57:21And those people generally are there serving their sentence. The people who are on the pretrial group the way I was or people who are kind of in transit, it's mostly jobs like on the units. So they're not as quote-unquote desirable as people who are there as cadres. Basically, it really depends on the person. Some people want to have something to do versus others just don't want to work. and nobody's forcing you to do it. It's your choice. You can try to get a job or don't get a job. I think people want to have a little assignment. I think it's healthy. I think that most people like it. the commissary what else do they have there brought a radio you bought a pair of shoes yeah Yeah, it's actually kind of wide range.

58:12You could probably see it online, actually. I think you could buy bags of rice. There are some seasonings you could buy. Batteries, batteries to the radio, stamps, pads of paper, just shaving cream. I think for the women's unit, they had some rudimentary beauty products, rudimentary stuff. It's all rudimentary, toiletry kinds of things. uh soap but there's some sweets i mean the big prize was like a six pack of soda that was like you know thrill anything sugar sugar was big so you could buy i remember i got a kit kat bar the first time i taste a kit i love so thrilled to taste sugar eventually i stopped getting that but you buy coffee instant coffee so that was big for me would the kit kat bar be the same prize or is it jacked up or i don't really remember probably everything is jacked up probably everything is i mean oh but i mean oh the other big thing oh this is big sweatpants and a sweatshirt huge oh my gosh so big once you get the sweatpants man you're like a king because you know you're just in that onesie uniform and over time you can buy things to make your life marginally more comfortable but the margin in there feels like it's huge you mentioned in another uh interview that the the currency there is mackerel fillet oh yeah so when i was there the main currency were stamps and these little blue packages of mackerels i call them mac so each little little mackerel fillets like you can get it you know grocery store you know tinned fish is really in in in right now and um And those little packets of macro fillets sort of functioned as dollars.

1:00:05So you will buy it from the commissary first? Buy it from the commissary. So you'd get a stack of Macs. And that was my main source of protein. So I'd buy a lot of those. I would also use them to pay, you know, because the guy who ran the laundry, if you gave him a Mac, he would make sure your laundry got all back to you. He'd fold it, put it on your bed. You'd give a Mac to the guy who was the barber. Because, you know, one inmate basically was in charge of the clippers. and once a week would like trim your beard, trim your hair. You pay them in a Mac. But the big thing was you'd gamble with Macs.

1:00:36Now, I'm not a gambler, but you see guys, they play poker, they're bop, bop, bop, the Macs coming out and they have a big night and they're coming back to their bunk, this arm full of Macs and like shoving them all into their lockers. Oh, it's huge. And one night, this is a gambling story. The one night I got really sick, running really bad fever. and my bunkie, who was lovely, who had like five kids, lovely, lovely man. And he saw that I was in bad shape and he checked my temperature by like putting his hands around my ankles. And he's like, you're in bad shape. And he went out and played poker.

1:01:14He's really good at poker. And he went out and played poker and he got me saltines and like Sprite. Wow. And it was like the nicest thing I've ever done to me. It was the sweetest thing. He like went out, gambled, brought his max out and gambled for saltines and Sprite to make me feel better. And I could, I mean, it brought tears to my eyes at the moment. Is this the same guy you ran into later at a grocery store? No, no. Well, actually, you know what? I actually did run into him once. He was working on a construction crew around the corner from this school I was working at. And so I did see him.

1:01:54I said, is that him? Holy cow. And we did interact. And I think I have his phone number somewhere. Lovely guy, lovely wife, beautiful children. Wow. You know. We heard somewhere that ramen noodle, instant ramen noodle. Oh, yes, of course. That's big. Thanks for bringing that up. Oh, yeah. Love the ramen. I'm not a ramen noodle person, but those are big and you can get those on the commissary. But those are not the currency in your. Not as I remember. Okay. I mean, obviously, everything's currency. Currency is just what you trade. you know so you know one guy he started a business and he would draw you greeting cards for your kids or your wife for holidays and he had markers i don't know how he got the markers but he had markers and paper and you pay him in stamps or max and he would give you a personalized greeting card for you to mail to your kid for their birthday or wife for you know your anniversary or whatever and that was his business and so i think he accepted payment in mac i don't know if accepted payment but you accept payment in whatever you know batteries are valuable those are good obviously the sugar sodas that's valuable but i'd say the main unit of currency was the mac you know obviously everyone has different levels of money i guess right we're talking about diddy and spf they probably have infinite amount of money to get everything on the commissary list times 10 right they probably can have 50 max to give it to everyone do you think that comes with more privilege than they can live more comfortably as i recall there was a maximum you could spend uh each month or every two weeks or however long it was so they wouldn't have been able to like max out the commissary i mean they would have maxed out whatever the monthly limit was but that had some so there was a ceiling now i'm sure someone who was wealthy and famous that there'd be people saying look if i can buy get you extra stuff on my commissary order if you want to put money into my account they're always look you know everyone's transact everyone's doing business this is still earth remember everyone's looking for a deal looking for a way to get over looking for a way to get in all of that happened i will tell you this one of those exciting things i've ever seen in my whole life.

1:04:14There was a sort of recreation guy who worked at the Bureau of Prisons, and one day he brought in a Monopoly board. I saw the most exciting game of Monopoly I'd ever seen. And they set it up on this table, and the four guys were standing around the Monopoly board. And the Monopoly board, the game went so fast, and they're like playing, and fast, fast, fast, and making side deals and paying people around the side. And it was like the most exciting thing I'd ever seen because these guys were like very sophisticated, in their own worlds, businessmen, hustlers, if you want to say that. And they're hustling each other and they're cheating, they're breaking the rules and they're screaming at each other.

1:04:59And it was thrilling. So, I mean, to say that everyone's still, you know, life hasn't stopped. so they want to go talk to their wife they want to find a way to make ten dollars gambling life doesn't stop how bad were the summers and winters well there were times on my unit uh where the air conditioning didn't work i think that was i want to say more than a week and that was brutal i mean that was brutal very hot because there's no air circulation there's no fresh air you know they put some big fans in the, you know, the door to the hallway. But that didn't really provide any relief. There's nothing you can do.

1:05:42120 people in a room. Well, 120 bunks. I would say the actual population number was like more like 100, 105. You know, maybe got up to 110 a few times. And summer in Brooklyn can get. Yeah, I mean, very hot. And then a few times in winter, there was no heat. Very, very cold. and a lot of these men were from the equatorial countries, whether the Caribbean or the equator in South America or West Africa or other places. And for some of those guys who'd never really been in winter, that was brutal. And you look out, they wouldn't even get out of their beds. They're so cold. And you see just men basically shivering under their sheets in their bunk all day.

1:06:27The cold didn't bother me as much. But no, I mean, it's cold. It's cold. It's cold. Sometimes, yeah, it's cold. Can you buy more clothes to wear? Well, listen, I mean, for people who've been there longer, if you had your sweatsuit and then you put your uniform over it, and then depending on which correction officer was in charge, you could put something over your head. I mean, basically hats, do-rags, a lot of that stuff was not allowed in certain parts of the room depending on the day. So I started losing my hair in there. So my hair would get cold. I mean, there are times I wake up and my hair is on my pillow because I'm stressed out.

1:07:07I am miserable. I wake up. My hair is like falling out. So, yeah, I mean, if you had hair, you had more layers of clothes, you had a better chance. But for guys who were passing through or who didn't have a sweatpants, sweat shirt. Yeah, it's cold. It's cold. You were there 2008. That's what, 17 years ago. Do you know anything about the condition today? Is it as bad? is it worse is it better i can only tell you what i've heard secondhand and that's from someone i'm still in touch with who had an office there and um what i've heard is that the unit that i was on those dorm units are basically just used for women now and that the men are all in the new building where they're in the sort of double tier cell units that i described for medical intake from my research that's where luigi mangione is in oh yeah and sbf and diddy they're in yeah yeah four north yes that's level four and level three are for women's yeah that's how they communicate to each other oh yeah up and down so my unit isn't men anymore um i mean the only things i've heard are maybe slightly more demoralized staff look it's very hard just physically look it's new york you don't have lots of real estate so if you need to keep all these people near a courthouse, just being New York, you know, things are going to be smaller, things are going to be tighter, things are going to be more crowded together.

1:08:34A lot of people have cases here, the Southern District of New York, Eastern District of New York, those are big districts, they process a lot of people. So it's an intense setting, just by reality, just by the nature of square footage and zip codes, it's a hard place to be. I can tell you one thing I did see. one of the most amazing things I've ever seen in my whole life. So these men, a lot of these men hadn't been on the street for a long time, years. There was a guy who was like, oh, when I got arrested, I was worried about my 8-track tape collection. So they hadn't been around, so they hadn't, you know, been around a woman for a long time.

1:09:10And they had rules about you couldn't send in certain kinds, the pictures the girlfriends could send in or certain magazines had to be conservative in terms of how the women were dressed. You know, the closest thing the men would get excited about was the 2008 Olympics. And during the beach volleyball competition, the men were lined up. Like, oh my gosh, thrill, just looking up. But one night, I don't know, this had to have been so against the rules. I can't tell you how against the rules this must have been. But out of the blue, one of the corrections officers rolled in. and imagine like your high school teacher rolling in a TV and a VCR to show like a movie that night.

1:09:55He rolls it in and rolls it into like one of the few spots where there's no like camera coverage. You know, a few blind spots in the cameras. He rolls it in there and he puts on a movie. And I mean, at the time I thought that's the nicest thing because these guys are so desperate. and so pent up. These are young men. These are young people. A lot of them are really young men. And I'm telling you, people went nuts. Now, I did not go over there, but a lot of guys, they left off their bunks and they ran over watching, watching the movie. And I'm sure someone's going to deny this happened, but I'm sure this happened.

1:10:43And they would take turns going in and out of the bathroom stalls or in and out of the showers to, you know, finish themselves off. And then they go back and watch a little longer. And actually, I have to say, they were very polite about letting each other go in and out of the showers and the toilet stalls. There was this odd sense of, like, good manners, you know, about how to handle this. Now, I don't think this ever happened before. If it did, I don't know. But it was like this huge burst of energy, You know, from these men that were so longing for any contact or image or excitement or anything.

1:11:25And then I think maybe 25 minutes passed. I don't remember exactly. I was a little like, I was afraid to even look or go over there, to be honest, because it was just like this frenzies overstating it. But let's say high energy event. and uh and then at some point the the guy went back corrections officer went back turned it off wheeled the tv back the guy sort of you know made their way back to their bunks and i never saw anything like that before or since that is incredible how did that happen who i have no idea but like the the the guard the now look this is years ago the person's probably retired, enjoying a nice beach vacation.

1:12:13And if not, I wouldn't want to say anything to get anyone in trouble. But he was young. And I think in a weird way, it was generous. In a weird way, it was kind. Because one of the serious consequences about breaking the law and ending up in a facility like that is you can be in the prime of life and go 10 years without being close to a woman. And that's one of the hardest things for some young guys to adapt to or to process because all that energy, they're human beings, they're males, they're earth creatures, all those energies still exist within them. So in some ways, I thought that was an act of great kindness.

1:13:02That guy brought it out.

1:13:14did you have any experiences or at any moment you were genuinely feared for your life no i had one moment of one moment where someone was angry about something i said and he was pissed but it dissipated and nothing came of it I can tell you exactly it was May 2008 and one of the TVs was on there was no sound and I said out loud I thought Barack Obama was going to win and this guy who was African American from Pittsburgh was sure I had only said that out loud because I was trying to humiliate him and his friends. Because, of course, that would never happen. They would never let an African-American man win the presidency.

1:14:07So he thought the only reason I would say that out loud would be to humiliate the black men on my unit, which was not my case. At that time, I was rooting for Barack Obama, and I really thought he was going to win early. I thought he just had the wins for going his direction. and the guy was like pissed. He thought I was trying to humiliate him and being humiliated and disrespect is a huge deal, a huge deal, not just in jail, everywhere on earth, but in jail too. You know, I remember exactly, so Lex and I came and I'm like, I guess it was like eight o 'clock. They called Ohio for Obama. I'm like, he won because I knew if he won Ohio, he was going to win the whole thing.

1:14:50But most of the men were like, no, no, no. They can still take it away from him. California is still out there. And I'm thinking, he's going to get California. But they're like, no, there's still time. You know, the little radios, people were three, four to an earbud listening on the radios. It was a huge event. It was a huge event. Unfortunately, they turn off the TVs at like 11. So we weren't able to watch the acceptance speech. but when they called it for him, that guy who had like I think seven bodies on his case, so he had a pretty serious case, and we hadn't spoken since that day, although we'd pass each other, he comes up to me, tears like streaming down his face, takes me by the hand and says, you told me, you told me.

1:15:42And like there was whatever energy was between us was gone. And it was a very, I mean, it was incredible to be there that night. And the men did work crowded around little earbuds, you know, the little radio we had. So you'd have three around each earbud straining to hear the acceptance speech. It was a huge event in that room. Super exciting. Very powerful. And actually, when they called it, another guy who was hilarious, who I loved. It was absolutely hilarious. they because um of my skin color assumed i was rooting for mccain and so a guy comes up and he's got like an ice bucket like they would pour over the winning or losing like coach luckily i ran away in town but the in time but the idea was to like douse me in the ice because of course i had lost because of my skin color my team had lost was it like the most memorable election experiences for you?

1:16:44Would the emotion be way more intensified in a room like that, in a setting like that? Well, everything's intensified in a setting like that because you've got 100 men with these huge feelings going through the worst times of their lives. Everything felt big. Everything felt big. But I'll never forget that. That, of course, was a thrill to be a part of that. And then, of course, the room was just buzzing because it was just absolutely impossible to most of the men on that unit that something like that could happen. Were there any conflicts because of the election result? No. Really? After that was called, things move on?

1:17:26Oh, yeah. And the guy who was going to pour ice on my head was doing it with love and was doing it like as a joke. I find that interesting in compared to... The world was different. I mean... Yeah. Life of my unit was different. There really wasn't, you know, tensions like that, political, racial, ethnic, religious, we all pretty much on my unit, thank God, got along. The only time there was a moment of ethnic tension was there were a group of guys that all spoke Russian, and two were Russian, and one was from the country of Georgia. So he spoke Russian, but he was ethnically Georgian in the Caucasus region.

1:18:11And everyone called him Russia. That was like his nickname because he spoke Russian. Lovely guy. And there was this day when Russia invaded Georgia. And suddenly, he didn't want to hang out with the other Russian guys. He's like, F you guys. And he made an announcement. My nickname is no longer Russia. Don't call me that name anymore. And he was very serious about it because he saw that invasion and kicked into his nationality. And so his relationship to that events changed his social relationship. And I didn't see him talk to the Russian guys again. Wow. So you're saying there's not that many cliques or groups that has conflicts and tensions all the time?

1:18:52Not I didn't. I didn't feel that way. I didn't feel that way. There certainly were, you know, East Africans, West Africans, African-Americans. Those were Muslims were kind of our own group. Obviously, the Spanish speakers kind of hung out. There was the great debate I saw twice between the East Africans and the West Africans was where was the Garden of Eden? Was it in Ethiopia or Nigeria? And of course, they were both sure that they were right. That was great. I mean, it's the thrill. You were only told eight hours before you were getting released. You know, what was that like? Someone just pull you aside, deliver the news.

1:19:27And then what happened after that? the last eight hours and after you were released? So there was some expectation that I might get out after one year. Well, actually, there was some expectation after six months, but they said no to that. After a year, they said yes. And so I found out from a phone call, either to my lawyer, to my family, the night before, and they said, you're getting out. And so that was it. The next morning, they said, you're going to court. So they woke me up early. I went through that whole elaborate process of being taken out of the unit, through the hallways, moved through.

1:20:07What was going through your mind when you heard that news? Would you say that's like the happiest day of your life? Or were you on cloud night? I mean, it just was like, it's like a, you know, just burst of energy. You know, it was super intense. I don't know. It didn't, I can't really describe it. It's not like winning anything. It's not like my case was over. It's not like my problems were over. But I certainly was like, it was just this kind of electrified, you know? And I said my goodbyes. I mean, I felt close to a lot of those guys. You know, one guy came out, tears coming down his face, you know?

1:20:46Wow. They were so happy for you that they're crying? Well, they were sad. You know, they were sad to say goodbye, you know? I mean, we were each other's whole life. No iPhones, no leaving the room to go anywhere else. We were each other's whole life. And we'd gone through some of the biggest moments of our lives together. So the relationships were, I mean, not like, I don't know, a very unique kind of bond, but certainly close. I mean, I would love to see some of those guys again. We're not allowed to be in touch, you know, during your period of basically probation, supervised release. You can't contact anyone else with a felony record for a few years.

1:21:29And who knows where they are. So when I went out and went through the basement tunnels, got to the intake processing room, changed clothes, shackled hands and feet, hooked up to the other guys, put on that bus, taken up, I think up an elevator maybe even, out the gates in Sunset Park, driven back to the courthouse in the shackled hand and feet again. You're like shuffling along in the bullpen at the courthouse. The same courthouse? Oh, yes. 500 for all. Yes, yes, lower Manhattan. And suddenly they're taking me up to the courtroom, still handcuffed and still in my prison uniform. And waiting to pick me up was this woman who I'd worked with, good friend, a woman who my mother had stayed with when she came up to visit me.

1:22:23And she was there and she had clothes for me. Street clothes, pants, belt, shirt, my house keys, credit card. And there she was and she saw me in that uniform, handcuffed, which I'm sure was a shock for her. And then suddenly they take the handcuffs off and they say, okay, go home. And you just put on my street clothes. and she walked me out and she put me in a cab. I got a little way in the cab, but I got car sick because, of course, I'd never seen anything move faster than someone walking for a year. So I had to lean out and throw up on sidewalk. Wow. And suddenly I'm like back in my apartment, you know, by myself and in my clothes and my brain's still buzzing because the noise, the light, the stress.

1:23:19And it took me, I don't know, probably a year or two really to decompress. Wow. But I'll never forget being able to close the bathroom door. I was like, oh my gosh, this is the luxury of being able to close the bathroom. No one lived with me. But I'm like, I'm closing this bathroom door every time for the rest of my life. But also being able to pick what I ate. What did you eat the first day? I went out for sushi. I went to Gourmet Garage, 7th Avenue South and 10th Street, which is now closed, unfortunately. And I think I got like salmon sushi. And I think I got some Ben and Jerry's. But I hardly knew, could process the choice, you know, walking through the sidewalk.

1:24:06Everything was, you know, sort of foreign. Not foreign. Everything was just, you know, I just couldn't. It took a while to process normal life as normal again. How was the first night going from only sleeping in? Oh, the bed felt amazing. Bed felt, it was thrilling to be in a bed, my own bed, my stuff, my TV, my books, my clothes, my own underwear, socks. Oh, thrilling. So you had no trouble falling asleep? No trouble falling asleep. I got my first iPhone. I sent my first text in a few days. It was like 2009, which I'd never done before. And it's like I slowly came back online. It took a long time.

1:24:54It was not very long, just a few days before I flew to Missouri and where I stayed with my parents until my sentencing. And after sentencing, it was done? Well, I had three more years of what they call supervised release, like probation. So in that first year, I had a few more times where I'd do in-person check-ins, drug tests, where they visit your house, normal, rational kind of systems in place to make sure that someone doesn't cause, you know, readjusts to life as a law-abiding citizen. I think throughout this whole interview, I think everybody can tell how much passion you have for helping all these people.

1:25:40That's kind of what you do today now, right? Can you tell us about what you do? How did you even get this job and what does it mean for you? Well, as you'd said earlier, I had worked in the theater for my career before I got in trouble. And I went back and did some directing again, directed an off-Broadway musical, directed a drama school. But the money wasn't enough. And thankfully, kind of out of the blue over LinkedIn, I connect with Michael Santos, who is really a big leader in helping people that are going through the system. He spent over 20 years, over 9 ,000 days, I think over 26 years in prison.

1:26:18And he gave himself a world-class education. He helped a lot of people. And he met a business partner, Justin Piperni. and the two of them started basically a consulting firm to help people go through that legal process to start pivoting towards the future, make choices that made sense, choices that were adaptive, prepare for sentencing. Because when I was going through this, I was totally disoriented. I felt like it was the end of my life. I couldn't get sober. I did a lot of stuff to hurt myself, or I should say a lot of bad choices. I did not adapt. I felt total despair and totally lost. And these two guys have put their voices out there to help people just like I was, guide them through this situation.

1:27:07Because a lot of people that go through the system, especially the federal system, which has a different set of crimes they prosecute than the state system, a lot of people, it's their first case. And so they said, do you want to come work for us? because one of the things we do is that in preparation for sentencing, we help defendants tell their stories. Over 95 % of federal cases end with a guilty plea. So these are people who have accepted responsibility, know they're going to be sentenced. They're not saying they didn't do anything. And Michael and Justin started this firm, and part of that was to help the defendants and their families, write letters to the judge so the judge could see their case in the context of their whole life.

1:27:56They could accept full responsibility, talk about the victims, talk about their plans to make amends, but talk about other things. Talk about their future plans. Talk about how they can use their time in prison to be productive, to give themselves an education, to shift their thinking from self-destructive and harmful behavior to a different kind of attitude towards life, one that's sober, one that's productive, one that's focused on positive activity, obeying the law, not doing harm. And so I really was moved that they invited me to be part of their team. And that was, you know, seven plus years ago.

1:28:36And I've now worked with hundreds of people going through the system from all over the country, from Alaska to Hawaii to Maine to Florida, people that from all over the world, their cases are here, people of all ages, you know, from someone who's, you know, 20 to someone who's in their 70s, all kinds of conduct, all kinds of lengths of sentences, a lot of people that are famous, people that have been on TV, people with big cases, people with big consequences, and other where it's a tiny case, you can't believe they even bother bringing it. And they end up getting, you know, home confinement or probation, or somebody who goes through the pre-tile process, the hell of all that for years and years, and the case gets dropped.

1:29:19So people go through the system for all kinds of reasons, having broken the law in all kinds of ways, but the system is still the system. And when a case starts, it feels like an earthquake in the middle of your life, and not just yours, your family. And you can be sitting there out on bail and find out, boom, they're taking your house. Boom, you have a billion-dollar company you founded. It's gone. Your reputation is ruined. The DOJ puts out a press release and describes you in the worst possible way, puts stuff out that has not been proven in court, but just putting out. So it's just huge feelings, whether you're in jail or not, you sort of lose your story.

1:30:03Suddenly the government's telling your story and the government's just going to tell what's going to help them win. Now there's a place for justice system. I respect it. We need an orderly way to process harm that people do to each other. We need to have laws. It's not America's worldwide. There are jails and laws and judges and police. It's part of being on earth. And I respect the need for that. But when the case is United States versus me, it's intense. And they win. And they're very good at winning. And they know how to do it. And they have a lot of experience. So when you're on the receiving end of that, it's painful.

1:30:43And not everyone survives that. Not everyone survives the despair or the loss. Not everyone can see their way through to the other side. And so my role with this a consulting firm which is called White Collar Advice and a nonprofit I'm starting called Defendant Support. Just whatever I can do as someone who can help them tell their story, help talk about sobriety, tell them about my experience. Because the truth is I feel happier, younger, more optimistic, better than I have my whole life. And I had to go through that to get here and they can hear that in my voice and I can be on the phone with them I might know some of these defendants for years between when they get their target letter or when they get arrested to their sentencing hearing some people I know years after I had lunch with some guy who I wrote his helped him write his uh personal narrative I don't know 2018 and he was like he's in horrible shape I was in horrible shape.

1:31:44If you'd seen me at my lowest moments, shackled hands and feet, or in a cell 23 hours a day, you'd have thought, this guy's not going to survive. This guy's in horrible shape. But people can get through that. They can reckon with harm. They can take responsibility. They can make amends. They can go through a healing process. And part of that healing process, that process of reckoning can be painful, but it's one season of life. Even if you've done something serious, even if you've really done serious harm, it's one season of life. And if you start heading in the right direction, there's a path to healing.

1:32:22There's a path to making amends. There's a path to making peace with your victims. There's a path to reconnecting with community and family, ending despair. The darkness can lift, but you got to head towards the light. And so if I can help someone do that, I mean, sometimes when someone changes directions, they pivot in the right direction, they take the right steps, they take responsibility and make amends in the right way, a judge can see that. And a judge can see that someone has done that work. And that might get them a lighter sentence. So you help people when they're in their darkest time.

1:32:58Oh, yes. Always, many times, talking to people on their worst days. But I hear that, and I can already picture them getting better. you know because i'm in a sober fellowship i've seen people come in death's door come back to life and get years of sobriety or someone catch a case get arrested feel like it's the end of their life and see them come back to life i've seen over and over and the path is available for everybody exactly who should be reaching out to you or your firm when the feds are knocking on their door Or are you mainly focusing on the white collar crimes? Well, for whitecollaredvice.com, you know, my bosses, Justin Papparty and Michael Santos, have a huge amount of mitigation information for free for anybody.

1:33:45So you can get a lot of information just by going to their website. Prisonprofessors.org, I think, is a nonprofit that has lots of incredible educational materials for people that are in jail right now. It's all about getting people through the system to rejoin the world as good neighbors, family members. So if somebody's in trouble, has a relative in trouble, go see what information is there. Some people want to know more about me. They can go to bradrousse.com. They can see about my whole life. Because even though most people just wanted me to talk about jail, I had a whole life before, a whole life after.

1:34:21And I help people in other ways. There are other ways, people going through the system, that a nonprofit, hopefully next year, defendant support will be there. People have reached out to me to talk to their classes, to come to conferences. All that's available. But for somebody who's in trouble, who has a family member with a case, really the first stop, if I were to suggest, would go to my boss's website. There are other consulting firms and companies who do that. but my two bosses is dedicated you know since 2008 i think they started this 2009 they've worked with thousands of people and the amount of information they've collected over the years is great and a lot of that people can get for free their youtube videos or if they want some services that cost money they can talk to them about that how important is it for you know for example you're writing a letter to the judge right the difference in you know you guys providing a well-written letter versus someone who doesn't have that?

1:35:20How big of an impact could that make? The impact is different. Every judge has their own frame of mind and attitude. I think these letters and doing them yourself, not by AI, because AI letters don't do the trick. I think the process of putting the letter together is very healthy. Because in my mind, I don't care so much about what the sentence level is. A lot of that's set by formula. And whether they get a little less or a little more, that's not what's in my heart. What's in my heart is turning them from that dark moment of despair to reckoning what happened in a way that's honest and orderly and gets them through this process.

1:36:04It's very painful and can take many years so that they come out the other side and they're better than when they started. I certainly am in better shape now before I went through the system. And a lot of people we work with come out in the best physical, mental, intellectual, educational, spiritual shape of their whole life. And you can have that positive journey. And sometimes putting it all together, where you look at, okay, this trauma happened when I was young. I grew up in a war zone. I was sexually abused. My mother was murdered in front of me. All these things that I've heard about, you know, and that injured my thinking.

1:36:41And it got me off track. I developed a gambling addiction, a drug addiction. I started doing harm to myself. I was desperate for money. I broke the law. Now I have victims. Like when you put it all together in the right way, people can survive their story. They can heal their hearts and their best days can be in front of them. One advice would you give someone who's let's say they're in trouble they're at a very very hard time in their life Well, and you first of all, uh, don't break the law following the law is a very good idea. I really suggest it So following the law is good You know taking basic care of your health eat.

1:37:22Well, don't pour drugs or alcohol in your body Don't get too isolated Make sure you stay connected. We're earth creatures. We need other people. We want good health Our brain is just one organ in our bodies. So if we're in a dark place, we're despairing, we're having dark thoughts, doing harm to ourselves or others. Don't have to stay in that. You know, that you're in your winter and the spring is around the corner, but you got to head towards the light. Don't stay isolated. Don't keep secrets. You know, with a lot of people that are in trouble, you know, in recovery, we say you're only as sick as your secrets.

1:37:59So isolation is bad. pouring drugs and alcohol on your problems, on your feelings, on anger, all of that bad idea. You know, don't double down on the harm. Look for people in your life that feel safe, who are at peace. That can be a teacher, that can be a sibling, that can be a neighbor. Don't head towards the darkness. If you're in a dark headspace, don't go online and look for more darkness. Put the screen away. Come back to life. Anybody who's in a dark place that can hear my voice, we want you back. We want you back. Head towards the light. Listen to my voice. There are a lot of positive voices out there.

1:38:40We want you to live. We want you to be healthy. We want you to be well. And just keep heading in the right direction. That's what I'd say. There's a lot of love in the world. Even when I was in jail, in one of the darkest times of my life, there were angels in there. There was a psychiatrist who helped me. There was a farm tech that helped me. There were other prisoners that helped me. There are a lot of angels that you can't see sometimes until you need them. But having your heart open, looking for peace and light. Don't double down on the darkness. Don't bury yourself in your room, on your iPhones, in the darkness.

1:39:15Get out. Look for those angels. They're all around. Thank you. How was that? Wow.