Authors in August: “Talking On Eggshells” with Sam Horn

26:41Give them a voice. Now they're going to own the decision because it's being made by them and not to them. And so listeners who have not already come across Talking on Eggshells can now see that it's chock full from one chapter to the next of very practical advice, wisdom, masked. Well, not masked at all. Actually, it's very evident, but catched in catchphrases, sometimes acronyms that are mnemonics that help us remember how to act in pressured situations. Sam, you are just replete with fun stories. Let's go. I'm not going to ask the story every time, but you can keep doing it if you got it. I don't know if you have one for chapter 16.

27:20We're going to do two more of these right now. Sam, what can I say and do if people are talking nonstop? Oh, Paula Poundstone said, you know, we need a 12-step group for nonstop talkers, we're going to call it on and on and on.

27:42So David, if we're dealing with someone who's talking on and on and on, here's what we can do. Over on the left is suffer in silence. We just wait for them to put a sock in it. We could be there all day, right, David? So over on the right is tactful termination. And now David, I don't think it's rude to interrupt. You know, if someone's at a meeting and someone's going on and on, they're holding the other six people hostage, right? That's not fair. Interrupt by saying their name. Say Bob, say Sarah, because people will pause for just a second when you say their name. That gives you a chance to get your verbal foot in their front door, right?

28:20And then we say, I'd like to hear more about that. And we have 10 minutes left in this meeting. And we have several. You say, or I wish, I wish we had time to go into detail. And I believe that if someone is monologuing, it is not rude to interrupt. It is right because we serve many instead of one. I really love that. And I want to mention that I have changed forever since reading your book earlier this year, preparing for this conversation this week. I have tried to remove the word B-U-T, but from my vocabulary altogether. together. I'm quite sure I'm not doing it every time. And there are transcripts that anybody could go back.

29:04Since this is a weekly podcast, you can see how successful or not I am. But I'll say this, I bet I'm saying but a lot less often in 2025 than I did any other year of this podcast. And Sam, I have you to thank because you're the one who persuaded me as I read your book that anytime you say something that you hope to be persuasive about, and then somewhere in the middle of that sentence you say, but it basically invalidates whatever you just said and causes the person listening to you maybe not to listen to the rest of that sentence. And it's a lot better strategy I've learned from you to use and.

29:42You've already done a number of times. I just wanted to underline that. Yeah. I hope people write this down because as you know, John Mackey of Whole Foods gave the cover endorsement to Talking on Eggshells, said it's the course correct for today's cancel culture. and he asked Sam, if you could only share one idea from the book, what would it be? And David, you just said it. Put the word but on the left, put the word and on the right. Because if I say, well, I hear what you're saying, but we tried that before. You did a good job on that, but you forgot to do this. We are canceling out what was said before.

30:13It is argumentative. Put the word and on. It advances conversations instead of anchoring them in an argument. You just anticipated one of my closing questions that will come later in this interview. I was going to say something like, which line, Sam Horn, do you hope echoes tomorrow morning in the listeners of this conversation or the readers of your book? And I think you just put it out right in the middle of our talk, right? It's the and, but. And I guess now I'm going to come up with another one, right? Can I think on my feet? Can I think on my seat? Pressure's on, Sam. All right, let's do one more of the what can I say and do if people are blank.

30:51So the last one I'm going to quiz you about is chapter 19. Sam Horne, what can I say and do if people are ignoring rules or boundaries? David, have you ever been to Burning Man? I have not. I've read about it. I think that you have. In fact, I know that you have. I have been to Burning Man. And yes, people have heard about the parties. They've heard about the substances, right? And we actually, yeah, I've heard about that. Because we have a lot of international listeners, could you just briefly explain what Burning Man is for those who've never heard of this before? Burning Man, 80 ,000 people come from around the world to meet in the desert, in a Black Rock desert.

31:30And what they do is there's incredible art displays. They pulled in a 747 and turned it into, are you ready, David? A disco car. Here's the thing, though, is that there are ground rules for behavior. It's a gifting economy. You pick up, they actually walk side by side and pick up every single thing so that the desert is even cleaner than when they found it, etc. And the thing is, is that how can you get 80 ,000 people treating each other with respect is that there are ground rules. And David, look, a meeting, no rules. People can talk for 10 minutes. You know, you can bring up something that you've already solved it.

32:10So I believe that having ground rules for relationships, in fact, maybe someone in your relationship is attacking you for something that you've apologized for 10 times. The rule is that you have a code word, right? And the code word stops the argument in its place, at which point you can say, I need 15 minutes of space. Or, and can we revisit this tomorrow? Or, and I don't have any bandwidth right now. And if we don't have rules, imagine going out on the highway, no stop signs, no crosswalks. It'd be chaos. Every relationship needs rules. So well said. And every chapter in Sam's book ends with what she calls reminder cards.

33:01So when she's saying things like, on the left, put this. on the right, put this, you should know, dear future reader, that at the end of each of these chapters, talking, what do I do if people are talking nonstop or not cooperating? Sam has the words to lose in those situations and the words to use. So that's essentially what you're giving us an abridged version. But these are very powerful tools, Sam, that you've invested in your reader. You've given us to act upon, to feel confident, to actually know maybe you can't get it right every time, but you've got the right word. And especially if you're expecting or anticipating a certain conversational situation, I feel armed and armed in a good way.

33:42I'm not trying to fight. I'm going for flow, but I feel armed thanks to the reminder cards positioned at the end of every chapter in your book. David, I'm so glad you brought that up because we've all been to workshops and we leave and we're all fired up and we're raring to go. And a week later, everything's back to same old, same old, right? So that's why I suggest put these reminder cards on your refrigerator, put them up at work, because it keeps these ideas in sight, in mind, instead of out of sight, out of mind. And what happens is we catch and correct that word, but slips out, oops, we see that card, oh, we replace it with and.

34:18And even in the middle of a Zoom call, even in the middle of a performance evaluation, we can catch ourselves saying something that will hurt, replace it with something that will help by keeping these ideas inside in mind. I wanted to say positivity again, but I've already learned it's not that it's proactivity. So productivity. Thank you, Sam. All right. Well, that was a fun section of our interview. I just wanted to have you hold forth briefly on each of those, but I have a few more questions. Are you willing to keep going with me? Enough with the rhetorical questions, David. but I guess you can tell I love this.

34:53It's an intellectual Disneyland. Let's keep going. All right. So I mentioned your use of acronyms. We really haven't done that. There are a number of them in the book. I know they're important constructs and frameworks for you. One I wanted to just underline here for the fun of it, have you share a little bit more. You introduce at one point of the book, ISA. So that's for Initiative, Sensitivity, Awareness. Now, to me, that's defensive driving for relationships. For the chronically rushed rule breaker listener here, Sam, ISA, Initiative, Sensitivity, Awareness, what's one micro habit that can build ISA without adding a single minute to our busy calendars?

35:37You know, ISA also stands for interpersonal social awareness, correct? And Desmond Tutu said, we have to stop pulling people out of the river. We've got to go upstream and find out where they're falling in, right? That's what interpersonal social awareness is. It's like playing relationship chess. Instead of just reacting to something, which usually makes things worse, no, we ask ourselves, what's causing them to behave this way? What could be going on that would make them so upset. And if we go upstream, we can actually often prevent what's happening instead of just react to it. Love that. There are moments that define who you are and who you're becoming.

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37:02For those who expect more from every moment, there's a vehicle designed to meet it. The Range Rover Sport. Exclusive offers available now. Explore further at RangeRover.com. Coretta Scott King warned, if you don't use your power for positive change, you're part of the problem. Sam, what is the most common power that we leave unused in everyday conversation? I'm so glad you asked that. I really believe we can be a force for good. Is David, there's a lot going on in our world right now. There's some dark things going on, divisive things going on. And I just had an opportunity to talk about this at TED, matter of fact, is that once Once again, over on the left, we can rant and we can rail and we can rage about what's wrong.

37:51Or let's move over to the right. We can create and contribute to and collaborate with what's right. And when we are at these crossroads and we are tempted to react and get angrier or subsume ourselves with outrage, does it serve any good purpose? If not, let's choose to go on the right and be a force for good. Albert Schweitzer said, in influencing others, example is not the main thing. It's the only thing. Let's set an example of being collaborative instead of just making conflicts worse. Another of the words that I learned from you, this one stuck with me through the months since I first encountered it.

38:33this is one of those words from another culture that we don't have a word for in English that helps us see something that as English speakers we might not be seeing because there's this word in this case in Korean, a Korean concept of nunchi. It's N-U-N-C-H-I. I'm going to guess I have it somewhat right. Maybe I didn't nail the pronunciation, but here's what I learned from you, Sam. I love this concept. So Koreans are taught nunchi from an early age. It means the art of you wrote, the art of and ability to gauge people's moods and act accordingly. Now, Americans, well, I'll just speak for myself.

39:14I'm not exactly top ranked at that. How can we practice nun chi? I believe that nun chi is proactive grace, right? How long has it been since we've talked about grace? Are we walking, talking role models of grace? It's, as Seth Coden said, kindness has not left the building. Well, not as long as we're in it, David. I believe we can be that centering, peaceful force for good, where we are modeling how in the moment, instead of being kind and cruel, we set that precedent and other people are more likely to respond in kind. Well, thank you for, I think the correct pronunciation, nonchi, and also for sharing that phrase proactive grace, which I know is a key phrase, not just in your book, but for you.

40:06By the way, I was thinking back to another word that I learned. This is from one of our listeners, my March 2025 mailbag episode for this podcast. Chris Ables wrote in with a number of these words from other languages that give us a new tool or handle once we learn the thing that we don't have in English. And so I'll just share you one back. Do you know what Wabi Sabi is? Please tell me. All right, good. Wabi Sabi is a Japanese aesthetic. This is from Chris Ables, our listener. He said, it's this Japanese aesthetic that appreciates the beauty found in imperfection, impermanence, and incompleteness.

40:44So you gave me nonchi, I give you back Wabi Sabi. Hey, David, that's grace, isn't it? I mean, think about it. It is understanding we're human, that we're flawed, that we will say things we wish he hadn't, that we will react in the moment and only later will we reflect and then correct. And I believe, do you want to know two words that we can use if we do reflect and think, oh my goodness, I shouldn't have taken that out on them. They didn't deserve that. You want to know what we can say? I do. Okay. 60 second story. You know, I have two sons, Tom and Andrew grew up in Maui. And actually, one day it rained, so the boys were inside.

41:27And my son, Andrew, turned our hall wall into a mural. I am not a happy camper, David. I am letting him know I am not a happy camper. And he kind of circles his foot in the carpet. And then he looks at me and he says two words. You ready for two of the most beautiful words in the English language? Go. Fresh start. ah fresh start and it was if if we have taken our anger out on someone our frustration and they don't deserve it we can go back to that person and we can look at him and we can say fresh start and it can be sam when i think about books related to yours we all have forerunners the greeks forerun everything that i've ever done i'm pretty sure um one book that comes to mind is Crucial Conversations.

42:15Now, I'm guessing you've encountered that book before. You know, I have. And guess what, David, is that I deliberately don't read other people's books. And the reason is I wake up at 3 a.m. with a great idea. It's not my idea. It's their idea. Right. So kudos to them. That book has sold millions. It's made a positive difference for many people in the world. And I haven't read it because I don't want to be running with the technique that isn't mine, it's theirs. I can absolutely appreciate that. And while this probably won't mean much to many people, as an avid lifetime board gamer and somebody who occasionally has game designers on this podcast, even though we're ostensibly an investing podcast, I'm very familiar with one of my favorite global game designers, Reiner Knizia, who's almost like the Mozart of our age, so prolific with so many great games over the decades.

43:03He's outlived Mozart, but Reiner never plays anybody else's game for the very same reason you just shared. There are also people who are cultural anthropologists. They want to read every book or play every game. And that's a perfectly legitimate or noble way to design or write as well. But you are in the Reiner Canizias. He's in the Sam Horn School of Creativity and Design. Toward the end of your book, Sam, you begin to invoke more strongly, I would say, one of my favorite words, agency, owning the passport to our own happiness. Now, if a listener, get ready, because this is the question I meant to ask earlier that you already anticipated.

43:43If a listener remembers only one line from Talking on Eggshells, in this case, it won't be the one about and, not but. Maybe it speaks to agency. Can you give us a quick thought, something that will stay with us about our agency in this world. Okay, David, you are sitting down. You ready? I hope everyone else is sitting down as well. William Blake said, we are all born innocent, and at some point we will encounter evil. And at that point, we either let that toxic individual or incident define or defeat us, or we become, you ready for two of the most beautiful words in the English language? I am.

44:26Informed innocence. We understand that evil exists. We simply choose not to let it define or defeat us. We choose to move forward and be a force for good. And that's agency, David. You know, on the left, there's all these things out of control, right? It serves no good purpose to pour our tat, our time, attention, talent into things we cannot control. Move over to the right. Pour our time, attention, talent into where we can add value, where we can make a proactive, positive difference. That's our legacy. That's the example we want to set. That's the peace that we seek in being an informed innocent.

45:09Well, my foolish listeners, you should know that Sam has graciously accepted to play our game, buy, sell, or hold. So of course, we're about to play buy, sell, or hold. But before we get there, Sam, I realized there was one more chapter from the what to do if people are that I meant to ask you about earlier. And I was given the chapter numbers before. I just remember this is a chapter and here it is. Sam Horton, what do we do if people are complaining? Oh, okay. Over on the left put explain. When people complain, don't explain because explanations come across as excuses. We think they're going to forgive us if they understand.

45:47No, they get angrier because it feels like we're not being accountable. So over on the right, put the A train. A for agree. A for apologize. A for act. You were supposed to pick me up an hour ago. Oh, I know the traffic was terrible. You know, it wasn't my fault. But no, no, no, no. Over to the right. You're right. Agree. I was supposed to pick you up an hour ago. A for apologize. And I'm sorry you ended up waiting so long. A for act. And from now on, if I'm trying to pick you up on a Friday afternoon. I'm going to build in a cushion for Murphy's Law. Now we're on the same side instead of side against side.

46:24I love that. And again, there is a reminder card with a little bit more than just that in that chapter for that very common situation. And thank you for that, Sam Horn. Let's move on to buy, sell, or hold. These are not stocks, but I'm asking you, Sam Horn, if these things were a stock, would you be buying, selling, or holding? And a few sentences as to why. You ready? Let's go. In an age where silence is rarely golden, awkward moments can multiply, but sometimes silence holds power. Samhorn, buy, sell, or hold the well-timed pause. Bye. Why? Because when we stop talking, people start listening.

47:06That is so succinct and so true. Okay, next one up. More and more, we're seeing brands and public figures issue what are being called these days, notes app apologies after missteps. So Sam, buy, sell, or hold the performative public apology. Well, it's like this is a box within a box. performative by itself is like it's not sincere, right? And it actually doubles down on the mistake. It gives us more reasons not to trust them because if they did something wrong and that's our perception and they issue a performance, which means we're just trying to do something for show. We're not really sincere.

47:49So I'm going to sell that all day long. Love it. The Olympic games are adding new sports every cycle. You may have noticed this break Kickdancing is in. Chess is being considered. And esports might not be far behind. So is this inclusive or incoherent? Sam Horn, buy, sell, or hold, expanding what counts as a sport. Wow. I'm going to sell. And here's why. If we're not relevant, we're not relevant.

48:20So you can't just invent something and then it gets to be an Olympic sport. Come on, let's go to our reputation, David, right? It's like, if we want people, once again, to give us their mind, time, and dime, then we better make sure that what we're offering is in alignment with our brand. And when we start following the trends and doing something because we think it's going to make the algorithm happy or whatever like that, the people involved go, we know what you're about. And it's not about us. It's about your clicks. From talking points to media training, public discourse can sometimes these days feel over-rehearsed.

48:58Where's the messy magic of real conversation? Sam, buy, sell, or hold, polished communication. huh interesting i think you can be polished and present david polished is in my head i'm reading from the um you know i'm reading from the um machine etc and it is often insincere because the words are perfect but perhaps the the heartfelt intent is not there so there's a lovely balance between yes we craft things before we speak and in the moment we're reading the room and we are responding to what's happening instead of just going with what we rehearsed in advance. I am not a professional corporate communications person.

49:42I've never played one on TV. Some of them are listening, Sam Horn. And what is, I'm not even gonna say your best piece of advice, maybe just your third best piece of advice for corporate communications professionals. I think, put yourself in the story. I think that too many corporate professionals are neck up. They're trotting out statistics or data or research, and people are going, where's the humanity? Remember, there was a president who was asked about a situation, and his own wife was dealing with cancer, and he gave a very left-brain analytical response. And many people feel that was why he was not elected president, because he did not reveal his beating human heart.

50:26And that was Sam's third best piece of advice. You're going to have to work directly with her to get the top two. Let's keep going. Will you play a few more? Another rhetorical question for me. There you see, you answered your rhetorical question. I'm learning as we go. I'm learning as we go. Thank you, Sam. So yeah, just a few more. This is too much fun. We're texting more than talking. Some people say these days. And when we do talk, it's often with one eye still on a screen. So Sam, buy, sell, or hold voice-to-voice communication in 2025. Well, yes. Yes, I'm buying that. Text 60-second story, David.

51:00I know this is a lightning round. Can we do a, okay. I would say that's a rhetorical question. You just go. My sons were at Virginia Tech and they would, they would, you know, text me and it's like, mom, do you have Elo's phone number on the fridge? And I would text back, yes, here it is. But I would also say, hey, did you get to see that Virginia Tech game with Duke and Coach K? Hey, how'd you do on that test? You know what? And my son texted me back one time and he said, Mom, you're never the first one to end the conversation. Ooh, David, that hurt at the time because, see, I was reaching out.

51:40I was trying to connect, right? But Andrew said, Mom, I called. You know, I texted. You gave me the answer. we did connect. And so what I realized is that when we're texting, often it's so short, there is no connection. The voice-to-voice communication is where we give context, not just content. And that's when we connect. There is a lot of wisdom in your sons. I'm beginning to realize that. Thank heaven for Tom and Andrew Horn. They teach me every day. two more sam we live in a time when people are encouraged to get ready for it you've heard this phrase speak their truth but in high stakes conversations is saying everything really the same as saying the right thing so sam buy seller hold let's go with radical honesty sell sell sell that stuff right you know rather i'm just telling my truth you know it's like i'm just being honest.

52:43And often we're being offensive, right? Or we're being inappropriate. We're not reading the room. We're not asking ourselves if this is the right time. We're not asking ourselves if they're even receptive to this. So David, what's the river that runs throughout our conversation is there is a balance between sharing what we want to say and whether it is appropriate, it, whether in that moment it will add value and serve or whether it will sabotage. If it won't serve, it will sabotage in that moment. Don't tell your truth. Yeah, I really had fun sort of putting these together and thinking, try not to give you too many softballs, Sam, but you hit every ball so well.

53:26Here's the last one. This one might be a softball, but I'm going to be very curious how you answer this one. So finally, every corporate team offsite seems now to include communication workshops, team building, maybe some improv. Is it actually helpful or has learning to listen become its own industry cliche? Sam Horn, buy, sell, or hold professional communication training. Well, it's a hold unless, correct? If it's neck up, if it's just don't take it so personally. That insults our intelligence, isn't it? It's a concept. If it's concrete, if communication training doesn't have dialogue, it's not helping because it's conceptual and we need concrete.

54:13And hopefully, David, that's what we've done here. It's like, what do you say when people are complaining? What do you say when someone's rude? And it is only when we give actual dialogue that people can say that it helps. Otherwise, it's theory. It's not real life. I love that answer. I've loved our conversation. Sam, I'm wondering, I'm sure some others are wondering too, if somebody was inspired by what they heard or learned from you today and wanted to reach out and connect with you or the Intrigue Agency, how do we reach Sam Horn? I hope they reach out to me on LinkedIn. And here's why. Yes, you can go to my website, SamHorn.com.

54:48It's just LinkedIn. I'm on there every other day and my life is my lab. And so something just happened on the plane last night. I'm going to write about it today. So you can reach out to me, connect with me on LinkedIn. And most importantly, you can get current real life situations and what to say instead of what not to say. Love it. Sam, what a treat to have you join Rule Breaker Investing from fighting fire with water to the art of non-chi to proactive grace to to reminder cards for the conversations that matter most thank you for sharing the soul behind talking on eggshells a book i have enjoyed so much and hold on to you're reminding us that considerate dialogue is a choice that we can make every day here's to more mindful isa more and less but and and a world of conversations that leave everyone taller fool on sam horn thanks hope people have found it inspiring, insightful, and useful.