Three Fools Vol. 2, with Bill Burke & Mahan Tavakoli

25:13And that is such good leadership and something that I'm going to take away and remember. In the meantime, Bill, I did just check the Internet Movie Database for the ratings of Silent Predators. Do you know how it scores on IMDb.com? Those are the ratings I didn't care about. A lot of people watch. I know that. Well, I'm here to tell you, out of 10, it's a 4.3. You had John Carpenter write some of the story here, apparently. This is a 1999 release. 1 ,300 people have rated this movie on IMDb. So, I mean. Enthusiasm. Yeah. Love it. The director, Bill Noel Nosek, were you responsible for - I had people who did that for me.

25:53I had the man in 10. That was a full-time job. If only we could all delegate our disasters away. No, that's a great story. Thank you, Bill Burke, for sharing. All right, Mahan, you're up. You're closing out our amuse section. What do you got? Yeah, so I was as big of an optimist as you would hope. My tag was I know I can. And I was standing in front of the Dale Carnegie training room, one of the first classes I was ever teaching, really enthusiastic. And Jake Paul Green, who is the trainer quality assessment person, whose tag, by the way, was yes, I can. All the L. Carnegie people were really positive.

26:37Pulled up to our Silver Spring classroom. He walked in. And as I was teaching, my focus went right to Jake. You should focus on the class members. But my focus was right on Jake because I knew he was going to assess how well I was training. This was my first solo class as a young trainer. And I looked back and Jake obviously was not liking what I was doing. So at first he looked grumpy and then he kept looking worse. And the entire time I was saying a few things to the class members, looking at Jake, saying a few things, looking at Jake. My mind was occupied only with, so how is he going to rape me?

27:21What is he going to say? Are they going to ever let me in front of a classroom again? I decided to take a break. I was like, I can't take this. So we had scheduled breaks, but I said, no. I told the class members to take a break and set them up so they could have conversations with each other. Because I said, I have to walk up to Jake and ask him, what the heck is going on? What am I doing wrong, Jake? Took a break, walked over to Jake and said, Jake, what's up? He said, what do you mean, what's up? I said, what am I doing wrong? I said, you aren't doing anything wrong. Everything's fine. Why?

27:56I said, but your face, like your contortions, you're looking so unhappy back here. He said, oh, my God, I am so sorry. I forgot my glasses. So I can't see the front of the classroom. I'm squinting to see what's going on. It sounds like it's going really well. I just don't have my glasses. Now, that was a real relief for me. But you know what? Part of what I think about is we so often assume we know how other people feel and we believe it's all about us. Not only as a young trainer, all through the years, I've had different experiences similar to this. I'm sure many of the listeners have as well, where we assume the person who is cranky, the person who said something or drove a certain way, it's about us.

28:49And I had created this whole story in my head. No data. We all do it. The stress wasn't real. The story in my mind was. And the lesson I learned in this is, you know what? A lot of times how people are reacting is about them. It has nothing to do with us. Amazing. And one of the things I've learned, Mahan, in studying optimism too, if you're not sure, we're often default to the negative. So you just assume. Yeah. And next time, maybe it's silence your cell phones and make sure you're wearing your eyeglasses if you have been prescribed. But one thing, Mahan, that connects both of your stories that I'm really interested in, because I do a fair amount of public speaking, you really connect with your audience.

29:32A lot of people, when they give a talk, they'll fake the eye contact. You know, they'll look up because they were told to, their eyes start around. But it seems like you really have a two-way relationship with your audience when you give a talk, which I think is really powerful. It's not an easy thing to do. Yeah, no, I really appreciate that, Bill. One of the things that I learned in Dale Carnegie is that people don't care as much about the words you use, the sentence structure, all of those things we pay so much attention to. if we are willing for a moment to be present with them, whether it's one-on-one or in front of the room.

30:07And I found that over the years, it actually reduced my nervousness as well. The beautiful human being sitting in front of me, if I talk to one person at a time and pay attention to them, they appreciate it and I feel more comfortable as well. So I think it's a good thing for all of us to keep in mind, especially you mentioned cell phones and David was kind enough to talk about whether it's AI or technology, I think we are allowing technology to take away from that human connection that is so important for us. So if we do that, whether when we are presenting or we are one-on-one, the gift of undivided attention, that by itself is tremendously powerful.

30:53Absolutely. That's kind of a mic drop moment. This podcast will continue Everything is not blowing up behind Mahan in slow motion, but that is such a good point, Mahan. And, you know, I was just thinking about a funny clip. Maybe you guys saw this on the Internet. Somebody had, using AI, no doubt, generating video, had tweaked Friends and put up a trailer for the famous show Friends if it was in 2026. And it's, again, photorealistic. Very well done. Very powerful. It's all the iconic characters, and they're all sitting there basically together. except instead of talking, interacting, they're just looking at their phones.

31:30It's sort of a trailer of what friends would look like in 2026. And I will say, you know, guilty as charged up to a certain point. I'm sure a lot of us feel that we're probably not fully cognizant how often we're looking down at our phones or find ourselves occupied by technology. So any nudge in this day and age from any smart, good friend to say, hey, be present with the people in the room around the table. Well, it's funny, Bill, you mentioned I was also thinking about how both of Mahan stories were him standing in front of a classroom or boardroom of people who looked upset by what he was doing.

32:05You're going to pick your audiences better. Either that or I better do a better job. I mean, I'm already wondering what your third story is, Mahan. But I will say that a second and a half story is just me reacting because when did I first meet Mahan? The answer is I was in a room. He was the chair of Leadership Greater Washington, and he was speaking as the chair to the new class, all of us in 2018 or 19. And he was so dynamic, so much fun to listen to, getting everybody fired up. What was your license plate again, Mahan? I know I can. That is incredible. No was N-O, but I know I can. Excellent.

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34:57Let's close it out with our final section, our Enrich stories. And Mahan, you get to go first. Yeah, so this is not going to be about speaking. Sorry to disappoint you on this one. I'm going to squint now. I know Bill already doesn't like it. I'm paying attention only to Bill. It feels like it was yesterday. I was driving to a Dulles airport, heading to Dubai and then India. I was going to be giving talks on leadership and culture. And the key message that my talk was about was leadership is example. So the fact that what companies say about their culture, what leaders say is important to them are somewhat meaningless.

35:46You walk in an organization, see what they prioritize, what they measure, what the leaders are doing. That's what matters most. So those were the talks that I was planning on doing. And as I was driving, I was thinking about that and also reflecting on a comment that a family friend made that my daughter, one of them was six, one of them was three, the six-year -old had been crying to her six-year-old friend, the daughter of this family friend, saying that I miss my daddy when he's away. So for anyone who has traveled, they would know that traveling can be glamorous the first time, but the second time it's not so glamorous.

36:39And traveling to Dubai and then India, it feels like you're up in the air forever. You sleep, you eat, you read, and you still have time to think. And I was thinking about the fact that I am standing up in front of CEOs and saying, look at your calendars. Where are you spending your time? That shows your priorities, not what you talk about. Where are you investing your resources? That shows your culture and your priorities. But if I had looked in the mirror, someone had looked at my calendar, they would have realized that, yes, I say my family is my number one priority. That is not how I was living my life.

37:22And that for me was a big revelation and a moment where it wasn't a clean break. I loved what I was doing, much of the travel, but I had to align better with what my priorities truly were. So for me and for all of us, it doesn't matter what we say our values are. What matters most is how we consistently show up and what we consistently choose. So that's why for that moment for me became a big defining moment at a shift in my life. That is a most enriching story and insight, Mahan. You are a CEO advisor. You are an executive coach. How do you work with people to get them to reapportion their time or their priorities?

38:24Do you have a framework? Do you have an exercise? Is there anything really shorthand that you can give a little tool that anybody who just heard you say, oh, wow, you know, I see something of myself in that where they could take a first new step in a new direction? I think the most important thing I've seen, David, and I was privileged to work with a CEO for a CEO at Dale Carnegie who was magnificent at this, is surrounding ourselves with a few people who are willing to consistently challenge us and get us to reduce our blind spots. I'm a big believer that we all have blind spots. Anyone who says I don't have blind spots or I know what my blind spots are, their blind spots are huge.

39:11However, what ends up happening is as we gain more experience, as we have more success in life, as we live longer, we become convinced of the way we are doing things and the people around us are less willing to challenge our thinking and we become more likely to dismiss it. So the one recommendation I have is even if you think the people around you are being candid with you, find better ways to ask questions. I know you love asking beautiful questions, David. I know you have also had Warren Burger on your show, The Power of Beautiful Questions. Ask different questions to make sure people challenge your thinking to reduce those blind spots.

40:02I think surrounding yourself with people like that will become a real way of continually growing as opposed to a one-time, one-shot opportunity. I love the story, Mahan. I love what you just said about asking better questions. And it's odd because you know so much more about this than I do. But as someone who's getting into AI slowly by slowly, the asking better questions is a huge thing there too. because if you say to AI, you give them a paragraph, how's this sound? Is that a good, oh, that's great. As opposed to tell me three things that could be better about this, or what have I missed here?

40:38Maybe AI could be good practice to do it with human beings, because I don't want everyone just to be hanging out with bots on AI, but it is, a lot of it is about what you get out is only as good as the question you ask. And I think that happens in humans as well. What a brilliant and powerful point, Bill. All of these AIs are focused on validating us. Unbelievable. And telling us how brilliant we are. The thought, oh my God, it's so brilliant. And partly because we want that, we have trained it to respond that way to us as well. Right. The reality we need to keep in mind is we have also trained the people around us to respond that way to us.

41:19Right. So asking the questions differently, just as you said, whether it's with AI or with the people we love and care about the most, solicits very different responses and therefore gives us a decent chance to reduce those blind spots a little bit. Another mic drop moment. Thank you so much, Mahan. That was great. I'm going to go next with my enriched story. I don't think it's going to be as valuable, so I'm going to be quick. But here it is. This is how I got my first job. So I'm in my early 20s. I'm now married. So I got married without a job. A neat trick if you can pull it. You can imagine and the rehearsal dinner jokes being made at my expense, which I can never take back because I'm still in the same marriage.

41:58There's a Mary Rich joke there, probably.

42:04So my wife suggests that maybe this is, of course, years ago. So we're talking about reading the wanted ads and the classified ads for jobs in your local newspaper for us, The Washington Post. And there Margaret is going, David, you know, I actually see something that might be of interest to you. It's a financial newsletter. and Louis Rukeyser, you know who that is, right? And I said, sure, the host of Wall Street Week on PBS, the longest running show on PBS. She's like, yeah, I mean, it looks like it's like six blocks away right here in Alexandria. And I thought, okay, great. Maybe I will apply for that.

42:39That sounds good. So I filled out my application and I sent it in. Of course, I mailed it in. This is another era. And in conjunction with it being another era, I took sort of another era waiting game approach. I basically was expecting that they would call me or maybe write me back, snail mail, and let me know that, no, you don't have the job or we'd like to interview you. I sat there day one, 10, 20, day 29. I was like, Margaret, they haven't gotten back to me. I applied for the job. And she's like, well, you know, here's the thing. They're just six blocks away. why don't you walk over there?

43:19And I thought, I'm glad I married her. So I walked six blocks, guys. And I got to the front door of the newsletter company that was running Rukeyser's newsletter. A young woman answered and she said, hi, what? And I said, well, I'm David Gardner. And I applied for the job of financial researcher and writer for the Louis Rukeyser's Wall Street newsletter. And I'm just wondering whether you saw it or whether I have a shot. And she's like, huh, David Garter, hmm, you know what? Why don't you come back? And so she led me down a corridor, and there was a desk at the end of the corridor, and there were two stacks of paper on the desk.

43:55One of them was about 24 inches high, and she pointed that and said, now here's the pile of papers of all of the people who did not qualify for this job. And then she pointed to a second stack of papers that was only about six inches high, and she said, and here's the stack of papers of the people who did have the three to five years of journalistic experience and the backgrounds that we were looking for. And so, David Gardner, your piece of paper is in the larger stack here. And I said, well, first of all, guilty as charged, I guess. I'm sorry. I do like the idea of the job and I love the market.

44:31And she said, well, here's the thing. Since you took the time to come down here today, I'm going to give you the test that I gave this group of people the shorter stack of papers. And so she handed me a Dean Witter, still remember it, Dean Witter brand, not much out there anymore. Dean Witter pamphlet on bonds, convertible bonds. And she said, you have 45 minutes, please make this intelligible to a general audience. And I don't exactly remember, guys, what I wrote. I do remember I did not finish it and time was up. And two days later, I got a call hiring me to write for the Louis Rukeyser Wall Street newsletter.

45:11That's basically the story. There's an asterisk because, and maybe I'll tell the story some other time, because within six months, I would quit that job. The only job that I ever had that I had kind of locked my way and efforted my way into, I would actually quit that job. And had I not done so, I'm not sure The Motley Fool would exist today. So I'm very glad that I did. But this is kind of a shout out to the younger people, the go-getters out there. and obviously we're no longer in a world of snail mail. We are in a world of LinkedIn. We're in a world of drop a note on somebody's site or send an email and it makes it easier to fire off your resume, if you like, to more employers than you could have afforded postage stamps back in the day.

45:50But I think the key, obviously, is that it wasn't my own initiative. It was the prompting of my better half saying, you know, what if you actually showed up? What if you actually went right down there? And I'm so glad that I did, even though I didn't end up sustaining it And that is my enriching story. I love that story in part because I used to watch Louis Rukeyser. My brother called him Lou Rue. The guy was amazing. He was an icon. And I love that story because I also have talked to young people, my children included. I think it was Woody Allen said 50 % of life is just showing up. And that follow-up that, you know, and today that tall stack, like you said, it's a LinkedIn job listing.

46:28And more often than not, there's not even a response. And a lot of times people say young and old, I want a follow-up. but I don't want to be a pain. I mean, it just always works. So another thing I'd say about your story that I like, David, is that rarely when you talk to someone in your position, so tell me how you got into that. It's like, well, I reached out to human resources and they met me. It's always like I met this person and then I followed up at that and there was a meeting I didn't want to go to because I had a headache, but I went. And so I think there is so much value in what you said and thank goodness you did that or we wouldn't all be here today.

46:58Thank you. Yeah, and you mentioned snail mail, David. If anything, now I think it's even more important Many of the clients that I talk to are overwhelmed because people are using AI to apply to hundreds of jobs, if not thousands of jobs. And they are overwhelmed to the point where they are not even looking at many of the people who are applying. The ATSs can't keep up with all the resumes that are formatted perfectly through ChatGPT or CLAW to fit the ATSs requirements. Therefore, that outreach, that extra effort, that human connection becomes even more important. So I think the advice is more relevant now.

47:47The other thing I love about it is you're fortunate to have Margaret as a life partner. And one of the things we all need is someone in our corner. It can be a partner. It can be a friend who can nudge us to do what we know is the right thing to do. But sometimes we need that extra nudge, someone to hold us accountable. So I think you had that in your new bride who was like, okay, David. read this, act on it, move on. We can all find people like that, humans like that, that can support us, as well as keeping in mind, AI is flooding the zone for everyone. If we want to separate ourselves, we better reach out and make an intentional human connection.

48:40Not an AI written email that I'm sure both of you, as I do, get tons of, human to human connection. Yeah, I want to underscore the snail mail point because I completely agree. It stands out. And believe it or not, the mail will get to that person. And when young people say, well, I like that company, who should I write to? I always say, if you can get the address of the CEO, send it to the top person. Worst thing they can do is throw it in recycling and you're right where you were before. Best thing they can do is call you up, which probably won't happen. But what will likely happen is they'll send it to somebody else.

49:13And that somebody else is now getting your letter from the CEO and they're going to pay attention to it. And I've seen it work and I recommend that to people all the time. And that's my story. Thank you. That was great. And it does remind me of the benefits of just calling up the chief financial officer sometimes. All right. Our final story of three fools, Bill Burke and Rich Us. Okay. These stories keep going younger and younger for all of us. I think this is before marriage, before high school graduation, I was a kid. You mentioned my bio. I'm a Detroit Lions fan. I was actually born in Detroit.

49:48My dad ran the radio station that carried all the sports teams, WJR for anyone in Detroit listening. But we moved to New York when I was three. And so I don't even remember living in Detroit, but for whatever reason, my dad was a fan. I just kept rooting for all the teams and it extended to the University of Michigan. And so I'm a nine-year-old kid growing up in suburban New York, and I'm this bizarrely rabid Michigan fan. And back then, And they were on TV like twice a year, the Ohio State game. And if they were lucky enough to win, they'd be in the Rose Bowl or whatever. And I was manic about it.

50:21I had clippings and banners and I put them in the room and I wanted to kind of watch by myself. And I literally thought if I didn't watch and put the banner right there, they're going to lose. It was bizarre. It was bizarre at nine. It got weirder and weirder when I was 14, 15, 16. and finally I'm like 16 or 17 and I'm still doing it and they miss a field goal or something to break my heart and I'm like literally I'm taking the stuff down like this sad sack and I walk up the stairs and I have to walk by my parents bedroom and my dad hears me and he watched the game on his tv he says son come in here for a second and I'm prepared for the you know son you have a driver's license now it's time to like move on from this Michigan thing and I will never forget it.

51:04He looked at me and said, you know what? It's really great to care about something so much. I'll never forget it. So I've doubled down on my fandom. But what I've learned that has enriched my life, whatever it is, a sports team, your alma mater, a hobby, you know, for David, board games and Tar Heels, you know, whatever it is, be there in the good times of the bad. The Detroit Lions have never appeared in a Super Bowl, but damn it, one of these years they're going to, and I'm hanging with them and having that thing that you care about, like truly care about, can really enrich your life. It was one of those sort of fork in the road moments where my dad could have said, get over it, get on with your life.

51:43And he said the exact opposite of what I expected. So it has enriched my life to have that as an outlet. That is beautiful, Bill. But if you're still holding out for Detroit Lions to make it to the Super Bowl, I see where the optimism comes in. Now we have to question some part of that optimism, but we'll leave that aside. I love the point that you made though. That's part of what makes you special. Your love for Detroit Lions or Michigan, David's love for board games. It's the humanity, it's the differences, it's the passion rather than the averages. The other thing, I mean, we've been talking a lot about AI.

52:26AI is powerful, is brilliant. It's going to do a lot of great things, but there are a lot of averages. The responses in GPT, they're all averages. Humans are not averages. Humans are bumpy, are unique. What makes you unique and beautiful? So I love that now I know, I don't know if you're going to ever reach your hope of seeing Detroit Lions win. But if they ever do, I will think about you, Bill, because that's unique to you, that along with a bunch of other things. So it's just a powerful way of us doubling up on our humanity. And your dad doubled up on that rather than telling you to move on, be one of the averages, one of the same, one of the other people.

53:16Thank you. There we have it. Is the hour up? It felt like five minutes. That was so much fun. Maybe not even quite an hour. I never really know. Bart Shannon, my talented producer, actually determines the length of each of these podcasts. But what did we hear? We heard stories right off the top, Bill reminding us that optimism is better, better for you too. Mahan had me singing as he misconnected with the boardroom. And there I was dialing up the chief financial officer to discuss operations of a company no one's ever heard of. And I think that makes its own point. Our amuse section. Yeah. I'll just say it one more time.

53:53Mary, not Richard, Mary Rich. And then Bill comes in with an image. I'm still trying to like the chimp channel. I'm still trying to picture that, but also with the silent predator snakes and Ted's reaction, that telling reaction. And then Mahan in front of another group, this time at classroom with a squinting overseer and that he learned, you know, it's not about you and me. It's actually about them a lot of the time. And you'd be surprised. And finally, we closed it out with our Enriched Stories. Mahan, there he was traveling. I miss my daddy when he's away. And that was a turning point for him.

54:28My turning point was just showing up for my first job that, as it turns out, I didn't even keep. And then, Bill, love that you care so much about something, son. In this case, the Detroit Lions. And Bill, I also, So when the Lions win, and I know it's not if, it is a when, I and I bet a lot of other listeners, some of whom are Lions fans too, will definitely think of you. Bill, you're my only Lions fan friend. So when they win this year, I'm going to be calling you up. Can't wait. You have my number. How about maybe just a quick final thought from each of you. Mahan, you first. Yeah. So what I'm thinking is the fact that when I reflect on some of these stories and some of the ones I shared is I'm a big advocate for confident humility in that we don't see clearly whether it is others, sometimes situations, and sometimes ourselves.

55:26So asking questions to try to challenge ourselves becomes a powerful way for us to both build better connections to others, but also be able to understand ourselves and our wants, desires, and needs better. You get an amen from me. Well said, Mahan. Bill. Fantastic. I kicked it off talking about lifelong learning and how we can always learn more and from each other. And I learned so much from the two of you today. So that reinforced that notion. And one more, and educate, amuse, enrich. This may have something to do with the fool's staying power and the success of the company, because I found in preparing for this episode and now hearing these stories, most of them do at least two, if not all three of them.

56:11And I think the very best lessons and stories in our life, if we really think about it, there's something we can learn from it. We can laugh at ourselves and laugh at things that we did. And because we do that, it enriches our lives. So I think these three things go together really well and it just sort of came to be in this process. So thank you. Thank you, Bill. Thank you, Bill Berg. Thank you, Mahan Tavakolian. Wow, what a journey we've just been on together. Nine stories that educated, amused, and enriched, in some cases more than one of those things, delivered by two of the truly brilliant and engaging minds that I know.

56:45Bill, Mahan, thank you both for bringing your passion, your insights, and your storytelling magic to this second ever edition of our Three Fools episode. To everyone listening, I hope these stories sparked ideas, laughter, and inspiration for your own journey. Until next time, Fool on!