Are We Safe Yet? | Leeds Preview, Signing Joao Palhinha & Arsenal (Q&A)

0:00Jack:This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

0:26Jack:Hello everybody, welcome back to Rule the Roost podcast. Sean Walsh, welcome back, mate. How are you getting on? Yeah, doing all right. I think definitely better now that Spurs have put a couple of wins together, right? Like, winning cures everything, doesn't it? It does a bit. It does a bit, doesn't it? The world's suddenly a brighter place, isn't it, after a couple of wins? I mean, to be fair, we hadn't won a game in 2026 in the league anyway. I mean, that is quite ridiculous, isn't it? I think we're allowed to feel a bit giddy, aren't we? I think especially after the Villa win as well, I know the Wolves win was a bit, maybe a bit subdued because West Ham had that last minute winner and Jarry Seymour came off and he had an ACL injury and it looks like Solanke's broken me out for the season as well.

1:08So it kind of didn't really feel like a proper, proper win. It was just three points on the board, but they didn't really mean much in the context of the running. but then the Villa one a day after West Ham got thrashed by Brentford, the manner of the performance from start to finish, the buy-in from the players and that connection being built again with the fans, do you really feel like that's a win? That is a proper, proper Premier League win and the performance from a team that shouldn't be at the bottom of the table if they can play like that?

1:40Jack:I mean, this isn't an original point but looking at that game, you'd be forgiven for not thinking our positions were in total reversal right if Spurs were the team in the Champions League places and Villa were the ones fighting for their Premier League lives and I know Villa made what five changes which is again I think is it's overstated in how much of an overhaul of a of a first 11 that is between two you know major European semi-finals but it also again as I keep sort of you know pissing and moaning about completely ignores Tottenham's own injury woes and just the fact that Spurs were really really good weren't they?

2:16Yeah I think people need to give Spurs a bit more credit because you know for all the changes the Villa made you're right Spurs have so much quality out injured and just hasn't played for much of this season right so gotta give credit to Spurs they had to go and win the game still you know Villa Park still not an easy place to go there's a reason that they probably will qualify for the Champions League next season and there's every chance that they could overturn the semi-final result against Nottingham Forest tonight in the Open League and gone to win that so got to give Spurs the dues.

2:45Jack:There was another big semi-final last night Harry Kane won't be on a path of destiny meeting Arsenal in the Champions League final. I do feel bad for H and I know people say it's not our concern anymore but I sort of will always maintain that you know he's our guy as much as Sonny's our guy and it's nice to keep an eye on what they're both doing i have to say if i'm being brutally honest though i have felt a certain sense of relief just in so much as i don't think i could have felt like it's going to be it's going if arse will win the champions league if they're to win the champions league that's going to be god yeah that's going to be a horror show if that is as well presented alongside pictures of a sad harry kane walking past the champions league trophy i just kind of feel like main character syndrome Spurs main character syndrome it's not about Spurs but it will always end up being about Spurs and look PSG go and do football a favor please please but the fact that it's not Harry Kane there the fact that it can't be turned into just another thing another way Arsenal are getting one over Spurs and just another way that football is kind of stamping on Spurs it's just kind of nice isn't it in a way as horrible as that is to say for for harry for the greater good i do think it was better that psg went through i did not have confidence that this by munich team as good as they can be going forward beat arsenal final i couldn't imagine vincent company getting the better of micartessa in a big big final like that whereas psg you know they've been there and done it last year they went to the final and they slapped uh defensively solid into team 5-0 i I don't think that's going to happen against Arsenal, but they have the experience of beating Arsenal at least.

4:32Imagine if it did, Sean.

4:33Jack:Imagine if it does just PSG 5, Arsenal 0. So this is actually something I've been asking to friends who spot Arsenal actually, is like, would they take the guarantee of winning the Premier League now if it meant they were going to lose 5-0 in the Champions League final? I've been surprised by the split. There's actually kind of a 50-50 split. Now, if I'm them, I have confidence that they will win the Premier League and take a chance in the final that you just won't lose 5-0. but I think that kind of speaks to their desperation to get something over the line, right? Yeah, and I mean, you can't, in some ways you can't blame them.

5:05Jack:I do kind of get it because I feel that they are a decent side. They are pretty well organized, but there's just something about them still. And I'm not just saying this as a Spurs fan. There's something about them still where I'm just, I'm not fully having them. You know, I'm not fully accepting. Yeah, I'm just not fully accepting they're the best team in Europe or one or even one of the best teams in Europe but maybe they are and maybe they're all going to show everybody that they are on the 30th of May but I just no I can't Premier League right Premier League is something that fine seeing it not pleasant it's not fine but whatever if that's what they do then that's what they do with it exactly it was someone in the Premier League was always going to happen at some point it was always even if they had a 30 40-year Barron spell, they were going to do it at some point.

5:59Jack:The amount of money that they spend, the prestige of the club, all of that, they were going to win the Premier League at some point. Champions League though, nah, like, I'm not having it. Europe's our thing, you know, that's just kind of the way I see it. And I think it's also more... No, you're right, you're right. I want to win it first. I want Tottenham to do it before they do it. That's... The three weeks leading up to the Champions League final 2019 were the worst three weeks of every Arsenal fan that I know their life because they were like they didn't because they were in the Europa League final against Chelsea of course as well and if they'd won that they would have got a Champions League spot which they were desperate for at the time but even then they were like there were so many I would take throwing the Europa League if it meant Spurs didn't win the Champions League they could not live with the fact that Tottenham might win the Champions League before then because they are they are the biggest club left that haven't won the European Cup and I don't think it's really close it's them and it's like it's like us and Atletico and like a Valencia or something, right?

6:56It's a quite big drop-off. Dortmund have done it, yeah.

6:59Jack:Yeah, I'm just trying to think. Yeah, Roma have got into a final. Those sorts of clubs, yeah. Yeah, but yeah, you're probably right. Yeah, I can't really think of another. I think Ajax and PSV have both done it, haven't they? They've both done it, yeah. PSU were the big one that they obviously ended in last year. So yeah, but even still, you know, can't be having it. I mean, I guess what I did want to get onto, because I did want to segue, as opposed to just like talking completely about Arsenal. Have you bought though that our terrible season has kind of numbed you to their success in a way? Have you found yourself looking at them a bit less, being a bit less preoccupied by them, perhaps as we might have been in previous seasons when we were both going for fourth place or whatever, you know?

7:47I think they're right. That's definitely a thing. I was actually going through some old pictures of, I think Hotspur Memory is one of the best Twitter accounts that I follow. They posted the highlights of a game four years ago today, which was we got a 1-1 draw at Anfield against Liverpool. That was right in the midst of when we were going back and forth with Arsenal for top four. And that was a really important point that we got in the end. It was a real confidence booster. But that was a few days before we played Arsenal at home and won 3-0. Was that Sonny's goal? Yes, yeah, yeah. Sessegnon assist, yeah.

8:15and it just reminded me of when you're directly facing against Arsenal it's like you just feel sick when the thought of they're going to beat you is almost like double jeopardy right like it's not just that Spurs could fail it's that Arsenal could succeed off the back of it and we had so many of those in the early 2010s didn't we where they were pipping us to fourth and all the like I wouldn't say necessarily none because it's still obviously really annoying and the way they've gone about it this season with the over-reliance or set pieces and the awful brand of football was just a bit yeah i can't really stomach it um but like you said this was always going to happen right the odds of this happening in our lifetime which obviously they're going to win things again so it's may as well get them to rip the plaster off and hope the spurs don't go down in the same year

9:04Jack:because that would be the real doomsday scenario would you take their level of success playing the way that they're playing being brutally honest or they're they're close they haven't won anything yet but still true yeah yeah um maybe um okay probably would but i think the thing it always comes back to arsenal fans isn't it there's so many of them it was just this kind of hypocrisy for years that they were going to play a certain way with wenger and whoever came in after him and they didn't like emery because he didn't play in that kind of way the class no isn't it the class exactly yeah and they're trying to roll that back out now because they're playing psh in a final and psh's oil money and all this and that it's like i'm not having any of it so just just is there any just there any bankroll by stan kronke with his what like 50 billion in the bank or whatever you know like come on yeah we all know there's other things that we could talk about as well it's just like it's not worth talking about is it so you you you get it or you don't how like how impressive have you been with deserve you mate how far off do you reckon spurs could be to maybe where they were under Pochettino doing sort of similar to what Arsenal are doing right now.

10:15Jack:Do you think De Zerbi is somebody that could get a similar level of success out of Tottenham like Arteta has done with Arsenal? I think he could probably do one or two seasons of taking the club into the Champions League, maybe winning a cup here and there. I think as a tactician, De Zerbi is admired for a reason, but at the same time, he is just so volatile and prone to kind of extremism on either end of the scale and you don't really know what's going to go on. We're looking at it through the prism of we've just come off two wins and the passion is there and you really want to see that. But at the same time, it could go the other way next season where if Spurs do survive, but they have a bad start, all of a sudden, Deserby's coming out in press conferences and saying, you know, maybe it's me that's the problem, the way they did when he was at Marseille and at Brighton.

11:00But if you want to look at it glass half full, he can go toe-to-toe with a lot of managers you'd hope in his sense that he would get back in the transfer market and bring in a few more quality players and strengthen the depth and hope that pray to god that the injuries don't persist the way they do but at the same time you still need a lot of luck you know even with Pochettino you know coming in Kane's just sitting there as a world-class striker and waiting there was a few other savvy deals that they'd done before then and he kind of really turned them into gems you know Ericsson came in on a cut price deal but Tongan came in from Ajax he rejected Arsenal to come to Spurs and then the recruitment they'll just hit after hit after hit and Spurs' recruitment of late doesn't feel like it's been hit after hit after hit so a lot of things can happen I don't necessarily disagree with the notion that Spurs could be fighting for top four top five again next year because this is just how the league is now if you can get your shit together you can go on and run we're looking at the possibility of Bournemouth Brentford being in the Champions League next season so it's not impossible but it just requires a lot of luck at the same time it requires positive alignment and not the alignment that kind of Langer, Frank, Vinay were preaching five six months ago when everything was going to shit.

12:10Do you think we could be going a bit accidental Jamie O 'Hara here?

12:15Jack:Jamie O 'Hara who was on Sky Sports the other day talking about Spurs going for a top four finish next season. I mean we're still in a we're still in a particularly perilous position in the league right we're only one point from safety and our final few fixtures are far from plain sailing are they we are but i think on the flip side of that is if let's put it in west ham's perspective west ham survive they could be fighting for you up next season because second half of the season their form's been really good their performance has been great nuno obviously has a history of overachieving with these smaller teams getting them into europe you know he did it with walls he did it with forest why couldn't he do it with west ham if they were to survive that's just the nature of the premier league now because that whole middle pack is about, what, eight, nine points between them going into the final three games.

12:59If Spurs had just been normal for most of the season and not a complete disaster, Spurs could still be in that situation as well. I think that's the beauty of the Premier League. It is so competitive now, and I don't think it's going to change for maybe a couple more years. Maybe there's some financial rules that change that make it easier for the big clubs to kind of stretch away again. But, you know, as much as I think O 'Hara, it's a bit clickbaiting with what he says, and he's almost trying to stir a reaction. It's not impossible. There's definitely a roadmap to do it. But at the same time, we do need to kind of not get ahead of ourselves.

13:30We need to treat the upcoming fix with some respect. And that includes a trip to Stamford Bridge where Spurs famously never win. So it's not done yet. Should Spurs survive? Should West Ham survive? Whoever stays up, there's a chance for them to kind of kick on. It's not limited to Spurs.

13:45Jack:Leeds are in actually particularly good form, right? But do you think it's fair to say that again if you're not beating lead to look regardless of their form let's not forget they've been around this point in the table for the majority of the season they've not been very good if spurs aren't capable of beating that side at home then you know our sort of premier league place should be up for question and i know it's a trite thing to say but we have to sort of bring it back to that don't we to a lay and well i'm saying this more to sort of say look we shouldn't be worried about leads because if we want to be a premier league side then we should dispatch them right yeah i think it's it's not ludicrous to say if spurs won't be playing premier league football next season they should beat the team that's 14th in the league and credit to daniel farger for what he's done there he's completely reinvented his image as a premier league manager you know norwich he was seen as that's kind of it was almost like they were too attacking they were too open but he's made Leeds so hard to play against but they're safe I don't think that there's almost zero chance of them getting dragged back into this now um they've had a really good season they've got some decent players but Spurs have something to fight for and Spurs are coming into it now actually in good form as well so you have to do it you have to go and do your job effective of what West Ham do on Sunday Spurs just have to go and beat Leeds and it will be a hard game i don't think it's going to be plain sailing but you just got to get the job done because that's what spurs haven't done the whole year how many home wins the prem still two i think so yeah still two you just got to get the job done you got to actually go out and do it none of this we won on xg we had more possession territory filter all that nonsense win the game do it yeah because i mean that was kind of thomas frank's you know almost like his epitaph wasn't it well we played well for 20 minutes and if we can do that for the whole game then we'll be fine but you know you you you can only get away with that for so long, can't you?

15:39Jack:You can't do that for an entire season. And thankfully, you know, Roberto De Zerbi seems to be breaking the habit of that a bit. And as you say, probably coming at the right time for us. But, you know, we just can't lose sight of the fact that it is still such a, it's such a precarious position that we find ourselves in. And, you know, mate, I just, you know, I can't, I can't bear, I can't bear the thought of Spurs going down. I really can't. Like, I'll be, you know, I'll be totally honest about it. The bright siding, the, well, it might give us a chance to reorganize stuff. No, like a properly run team should be able to do that and maintain its Premier League status, right?

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17:31Jack:When things are working, you don't change them. That's why when you drink Jägermeister, you drink it ice cold. Anything else? Well, that'd just be bad luck. Drink it cold or don't drink it at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur, 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Mast Jägermeister, U.S. White Plains, New York. It would be a massive sporting moment across all sports, across all time periods we've never seen a team that pumped this much money into infrastructure into players managers whatever be relegated this it's unheard of and i think there's a reason why we're seeing stories such as oh if spurs stays up this these are the players they want these are the players they're talking to but not an alternative list if they go down i think part of it is the club have for so long resisted the idea that spurs could even get relegated and that's on that that's you know it's bad on them but at the same time no one knows what it would look like if spurs go down what did the scene look like next season we could say well this player will stay this player will probably stay like the young players probably stay but we don't know that we don't know that for sure we have no idea what it would look like we have no idea if these players were injured could still try and force a move and hope that the other team just waives the medical almost and ignores the the problems that they got we have absolutely no idea it would be such a fall into the unknown and it's a scary unknown and it's proper kind of horror movie stuff.

18:56A club this big should just not be going down.

18:59Jack:Because, you know, there are those overheads that I know people will continue to say, well, non-watch day revenue and stuff, but I'm just not buying that. As you say, it would be a catastrophe for us. That makes it even worse. Spurs aren't financially struggling. The other big clubs that have gone down, they've had some sort of event happen to them where they're either strapped for cash or they've kind of fallen... out of revenue some way or another. Spurs are as financially strong as ever, as you know, the guys on LinkedIn keep saying, and they keep doing these talks about and saying how profitable the club is and all this rubbish while the team goes up in flames.

19:36It's even worse. That makes it so much worse that this is being allowed to happen, that this is the point of the season. It's like hypotheticals. Would you take Spurs staying up if it means Arsenal win the league and Champions League? That should not be happening. These two clubs were parallel for much of the last 15, 20 years.

19:51Jack:and now this is where they are again just i just whatever you know i can't continue to spiral about it because things are on and up and as deserve he said to all of us the other week you know keep our chin up and you know we losers cry and all that type of stuff so but maybe i'm just a loser sean maybe that's what it is you've been conditioned over the last couple seasons damn losing losing is a habit and winning is a habit maybe as the people say on on twitter maybe it is fans like me that's uh that you are the problem am i is that what it is we get to the game on monday night and everyone's just there just kind of trembling it's like oh god i mean yeah do you think on this one i know he kind of played it off quite uh oh sorry i didn't realize but do you think deserve it and i'm not saying this is a you know that he's done anything wrong but do you think he purposefully ensured that the fans meeting the players you know as we saw against nottingham forest didn't happen um in the in the brighton game because you know there was there was i think there were plans to do a bus meeting again and he was actually oh no sorry my fault i told the players to all come in early i wonder if he sort of thought that whole thing was a bit too much i don't know i think i think it was like it worked both ways in that he does have his habits so if he wants the players in, he wants to have that briefing with them.

21:16But also, it was a good excuse to be like, we can't raise the stakes that early before the game because it might just unsettle the players a little, especially after it didn't even work the time before. Whether he might change his ways for the final two games, I don't know.

21:36But he might be different now that Spurs have actually won a couple and the mood is different. He might just be like, this is the chance to ride the wave of momentum.

21:42Jack:Evening game as well and all that kind of thing. Yeah. It could go either way, really. Well, he's had his press conference this afternoon, actually, which took me by surprise a bit before I was sorting out the running order. Four days before the game. Yeah, I know, right?

22:01Jack:There's actually quite a few highlights from this, a few interesting ones. He was asked if he wants to sign Xiao Polinia permanently. and he said straight up 100 we have to start from these type of people more than players we need reliable people and players pelini is one of the best not only as a player but as a guy um i want to see players have the same personality attitude and spirit as him we're lucky to have him i mean that's not going to be popular with everybody um but do you think i think number i I guess this is twofold, Sean. Do you think, number one, that it is perhaps overstated how...

22:41Jack:I don't think anybody says he's bad, but overstated, say, what his presence in the team means for Tottenham's attacking ambitions. And also, number two, I guess... No, let's just go with that. Let's just go with the first one. I actually need a bigger sample size of Pelinha, Bentoncourt, those kind of players playing under Deserby, because for so much of the season when they were playing under Frank, it was this is way too conservative. They don't have enough on the ball. And then you watch the Villa game and you just think maybe they weren't that much of a problem, but it's so hard to judge just on that one game, especially where Villa didn't show up at all.

23:19But I do kind of agree with the sentiment that if there's going to be this kind of culture shift, you do need that there's reliable players. You do need, Spurs do need that kind of profile of someone who loves those duels. The problem that Spurs have had over the last couple of years is that most of them midfielders have that profile as well. So it's about, you've got to kind of pick some and move on some others to bring in some more creative and technical types. But I get why he's fallen in love with Polinia. I imagine that's probably almost born out of the training sessions as well or these one-on-one meetings that he's supposedly having with much of the team.

23:59The surprise is, you know, we think of De Zerbi as this possession heavy manager who wants to play this beautiful round of football how does Pelinia really fit into that and maybe maybe the answer is just don't get him to do that much the same way you know Pep sold Edison who was the 11th outfield for City and he brought in Donnarumma and Donnarumma his remit is just kick the ball long don't try anything fancy because you'll kick the ball against Kai Hammers in a title deciding game I don't know it really makes you question the things that you know about football doesn't it yeah maybe i'm the idiot well

24:33Jack:no i just i just i don't know if i don't know maybe maybe we all just don't put enough faith in the fact that a guy who is a professional premier league footballer can actually sort of you know kick a ball kick a ball play a bit differently you know i i just i think that's what's always maybe bothered me a bit about the the the the polinia storyline if you like the sort of the what i think is maybe a bit of a an over criticism of him i don't know but you know i don't i thing is i don't really do all the tactico stuff that's the that's the point so i'm never too quick to just say no this is all bollocks people don't know what they're talking about of course he can do this sort of thing but i would say it's just never really rung entirely true for me that he wouldn't be able to that he in no way shape or form would be capable of doing some of the things that people say he isn't capable of if that it's already a roundabout way of making no i get i get what you mean i think if he has three more games like he did at villa then you'd feel a bit more confident in arcade deserve you definitely can build a midfield around this guy and build a team with him playing a crucial role i just would like to see that a few more times in these high pressure games before committing myself one way or the other i i was under the illusion that he was probably going back to buy and Spurs wouldn't stomach that and it might be the case that Spurs go down anyway that doesn't happen so there you go that's positive yeah cheers right but you know but still true though you know it's just a really painful and horrible scary thing um what else has he said he did have a note there was a part about Archie gray on here so a lot of a lot of discourse around archie gray right now look how we're winning games now archie gray is not in the team type stuff um and deserby has addressed this i'm not sure what has prompted him to say this but i'm guessing he was just asked why he's not in the team and deserby said he's very young he has big potential as a player um he can become the future i'm sure of that he can become the future of this club the captain of this club but he has to understand better what will be his position on the pitch because he plays in lots of different positions but I want him to be more specific in that we're working with him on that in individual meetings you can't really argue with that can you I think that's a that's a pretty fair point to make I think I would always always again default back to Gray has been thrust into a position it's a failing on the club and it's it's a failing on the ownership that Archie Gray has been relied on as much as he has been right now and hasn't been given that freedom to you know kind of grow quite naturally as a player and i think maybe a lot of our fan base probably haven't extended him the level of kind of grace and understanding that he's probably deserving of is that fair yeah you're you're bringing in this prodigy from the championship i know there's big money paid but you have to do that to get the top talent up don't you and he was basically he only really played last season when Spurs were in a complete crisis and he was usually playing in centre-back in the Premier League that he'd never played in before and he's just like okay solve everything play it play in this style and system that no one else does because it's so erratic and be good and of course he's not gonna be good it would have been impossible this season you know Frank was yanking him around the lineup as he started, he was on the bench.

28:11He played, he had some good games as well. You know, he played right wing back against City and he was really good there. He walked all over at Les Coats midfield in the second leg of the last 16 tie. I cannot be arsed arguing with people who just think that he's the problem. It's like, how can you just sit here, consume Tottenham Hotspur content daily, live and breathe the club and be like, that's the guy. That's the one. It makes no sense to me. I think De Zerbi handled that question really well. He did, and it has been refreshing