Built in a Lab

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0:34Jack:Thanks for the support, and now, on with the show. Before the season even kicks off, soccer fans are already making predictions. Who wins the league? Who qualifies for Europe? And who's lifting the trophy at season's end? On Calci, America's number one prediction market platform, you're trading against peers in a live market, meaning there's no house. And as the probability changes, you can buy in and out of your position. For a limited time, download the CalShe app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I, CalShe. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply.

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2:08Jack:Hello everyone, welcome back to Rule the Roots podcast. The season is creeping back in like parasitic tendrils against an old fence post. I'm here to usher it in with me to be, I don't know, some sort of co-gardener. in that, nurturing this creeping vine, Mr Hunter Godson. How are you doing, mate? I'm very well, mate. I'm very well. Thank you for having me on. Absolutely. Like a debut I'm hoping will be akin to Vescovich's at the weekend. I've got to say, mate, like, you know, I don't like to kind of overly brown those people on the pod, but I have been wanting to get you on for a while and I'm pretty delighted that we've been able to make it happen.

2:50A big signing. Is that what we're saying? like it's one that's been uh you're the director of football and you've been chasing me for weeks

2:57Jack:months trying to get that signature in that kind of way because i think i first sort of like broached it with you over a few wines in uh in corfu at haines when just an off the record kind of podcasts you know let's just just off the record podcasts you fancy it yeah yeah i remember i I say I remember it. I remember the idea of it. Or maybe I like to think that I remember it more than I do because the wine was flowing. It was also 30 degrees. Beautiful day, though. Thanks, Hainsey. We love you. But, yeah, no. Well, look, I'm just glad to be here, and I'm hoping to make an impact straight away.

3:36Jack:I'm loving this, man. I'm loving this. I'm podcasting Voskovich. Let's just dive straight in. Is he... Not to overhype him, but is he the best player of all time? Yeah, I think he is. I think we can say after 45 minutes of football, best footballer that's ever played for Spurs and probably ever played the game. We've all seen a video of him kicking the ball really hard when he was 11, haven't we? Yeah, exactly. And that's basically all football is, just kicking the ball hard and in various directions. Yeah, a bit of running involved, heading, which he is very good at. Very good at that. No, I mean, look, it is a freak.

4:18You know, you usually hear these going the other way, where on a debut, a hyped player gets a red card or scores an own goal and gets a red card. You know, I'm thinking Jonathan Woodgate. Sorry, Jonathan. But no, it was an immediate impact in a way that is rare for a£50 million signing, let alone a sort of 18-year-old who we don't know what to expect. Obviously, he has this stupid goal-scoring record. And you sort of wonder, okay, well, is it just as he played? He's played in lesser leagues and he's very good in the air. So he's beating all those kind of different standard players. But no, he comes in.

5:03I mean, the header he wins is a great header. He's clearly a monster in the air. And he also looks very composed. I was incredibly impressed.

5:13Jack:I do kind of have to sort of check myself in these moments because if I recall I think we signed him about two seasons ago now didn't we yeah yeah and it was I want to say it was sort of bordering the 20 million mark for like a 16 year old or whatever I can remember being a bit like well it's all well and good spending that then right but we need players for now kind of thing but now he actually is here he's just i mean it just i what it's got about it what it's reminded me of and i get into completely different player to him but i remember when we signed delhi from mk dons yeah we all knew he had this huge reputation but it was kind of like in maybe four five years time delhi will be great like we'll sign him at spurs and then we'll probably loan him out for a bit and then he started playing in pre-season games and I think we were all just like oh yeah he's he's really good isn't he like he's actually really class um and it kind of feels like Voscovic is I'm not saying he's he's immediately storming into the first team but you feel like he's probably already making a stake for the bench right 100 % not least because I feel like who he's up against obviously we saw Danzo play on the left at the weekend but I think if you're saying if you were talking about him or Dragson and a team that needs to be fairly confident on the ball and comfortable on the ball well even in the 45 minutes you saw he's very calm and his ability just to kind of take the ball down and play is a massive asset um i don't think you i think i think you're you're right in that he can come in and make an impact as of as of tomorrow um and also being good in the air you know in both boxes let's not for thomas frank a man who is addicted to set pieces that's a huge asset to have and not one that i think romero is pretty good in the air but you can definitely say van der ven is not not great in the air he's not the strongest in the air unless he's doing bicycle kicks off of the goal line um the that's a massive asset to have and like if you get the reality is if you go if you can beat people in the air in one league you can probably beat people in the end the other in another league and he's already proven that against reading that he can do it so now he needs to do it every week and become our top scorer like he did in Croatia it's quite funny how we've we've actually one of the big things we've missed about Harry Kane is his defensive ability exactly in terms of just winning balls in the air in our own box and they're usually running up the other end of scoring as well with it um which it seems like Vescovic is capable of doing but I mean you don't the thing is one doesn't want to hype a young player too much he is I think he's only 18 or maybe 19 or so no he's 18 yeah he's 18 uh he's born in 2007 so yeah sickening yeah he's 18 years old he's clearly like physically he's clearly very developed but at the same time he's 18 years old so as we know with center backs it's a very high pressure position on the football pitch they're often prone to making errors so I think we probably have to work this into our into our near future in terms of our thinking with him but with the still being a air of uncertainty over Romero I know Frank spoke about him in his in his pre-match presser and said he was dedicated said he was very much part of the plans he's not really going to say anything else is he to that fact I the way the way I kind of see it with Romero is I can see him staying I can also just as easily see Atletico thinking whatever give Spurs what they want sort of last few weeks of the window just being like you want your 80 mil here it is let's just get him in because we need him kind of thing um danzo does look very good so let's not kind of do him dirty obviously drag us in is to come back into the fold and a lot of people believe he might actually be very good foil for thomas frank so there's there is a there's an air of competition there for viscovic but at the same time it doesn't really feel like there's anybody that's irreplaceable and i know people want i know people won't particularly like hearing that because Mickey van der Ven is a very, very talented defender.

9:44Jack:But my only point is, it's like he's not flawless in his execution a lot of the time. And that's not me saying, let's get rid of Mickey van der Ven. All I'm saying is, if Vuscovic is actually going on this mad tangent right now, this trajectory, I can quite easily see him being a first-team regular for Spurs, maybe by the end of the season. Because he does look different, you know? I think it's a good position for him to be in, right? because I'd say we still have a very clear starting back line. We know what the best back line is. The stats last year proved that. They barely played together. But when those five played together, we tended to win.

10:24I think we had an 80 % win rate when the back five, our starting back five played. But they never played. I mean, Mickey van der Ven played 13 Premier League games last year. Do you know what I mean? That's not a season. that's not enough games Mickey and like you said he's 24 so he's still you know we say centre backs they age like a fine wine you learn more about the game as you get older the reason I say it's a good position for Vizkovic to be in is because I don't think he comes in as first choice I don't think anyone's suggesting that but what he gets to be is he gets to learn off of Romero who if you speak to any footballers they'll tell you he's one of the best centre-backs in the world he gets to he gets to come into a defense that should be a lot more settled this year let's hope injuries are allowing but it looks like we're setting up to have a lot more depth in the in the back line and you know I've read a lot recently about how we're looking for another left-sided left back or centre-back or someone who can do both that's a great idea so it's coming into a defence that is a lot more settled, kind of allows him to drop into hopefully a team that feels more cohesive, less disjointed.

11:41Whereas if you'd said, if you said he was coming into, you know, let's talk about Andrew's team in the back half of last season, that would be a difficult team for any footballer to come into because it was so disjointed, but especially in the defence where you're often left as a two, as the centre-backs were often left as a two, as the full-backs inverted or bombed on, we got exposed quite a lot. So I think it's a great position for him to be in. And look, if he can come in in teams that we know aren't great from set pieces and come in and make a difference against low blocks, which obviously we struggled with last season, set pieces are going to be massive for us this year.

12:20And if he can make an impact there, then that is a huge player to have at both ends of the pitch, as you mentioned. And that's quite exciting because we've been bad at set pieces for as long as I can remember. Obviously, we had the year under Conte where he actually hired a set piece coach and it all did get significantly better. Who would have guessed? And then we binned him and went back to being pretty rubbish at them. But yeah, look, when Liverpool, like, for example, when Liverpool hire a throwing coach and everyone takes the piss, but then Liverpool get really good and effective from throw-ins that's just what football is now it's a load of fine margins that you can kind of you can kind of make plans for and if you don't make a plan for it you might not be very good at it

13:05Jack:It's like exploiting any bit of space isn't it Exactly You know you've seen grand designs now in a street and they're like these people had a 30 foot square of land and so they instead decided to build a 200 foot tower on it So they've dug down to the centre of the earth naturally warmed

13:29Jack:how excited were you when we signed Mohamed Kudus and how excited are you now after seeing him tearing down the wing against Reading when we signed him he's one of my I'll start this by saying he is one of my favourite players in the Premier League actually him and Morgan Gibbs-White are two of my favourite players in the Premier League so So let's not get into Gibbs right just yet. But when Kudus signed, I was very excited. I think you can put part of his form down last season to West Ham just being generally fairly awful. And him maybe looking like he didn't want to be there too much. I get that it wasn't the greatest year for him, but there's no doubt that that is an incredible player with a very unique set of skills.

14:15his ability to hold the ball turn a player and just burst into space is incredibly unique and something that I tweeted at the weekend actually during the Reading game it's just something that we don't have in the Spurs squad at all Odebeer is probably the closest to it but he's not built enough to hold off the player yet he's a bit lightweight in turning on the ball and that moment down the right hand side with Jed Spence where he sort of dances on the touchline and then pushes it into space and just explodes away from his fullback. I sort of thought, I've got no beef with Brennan Johnson. I think Brennan Johnson is brilliant at arriving into the area, but that's just the difference in those types of players.

15:03Johnson is kind of this unique inside forward that has this ability to arrive into the box that lots of players don't have. That's a massive skill, but he's not going to do that down the wing that's just not how he just doesn't play like that and the same with Son down the other side you know I don't like Son out on the touchline I've never particularly loved Son out on the touchline so yeah Wilson Odebe the closest we had and Wilson Odebe is a good example of a player who's still learning how to do that and Kudus is an example of a player who has learned how to do that how to use his body he's got physically bigger he is a brilliant dribbler quite you know I heard a lot about West Ham fans talking about not great decision making in the final third but I thought he'd made all the obviously it's only 45 minutes but I thought he had a good a really good 45 minutes and it was just exciting you know those players that you pay to go and watch it at football that's who he is I know we we kind of joked about

16:01Jack:it at the beginning there but one of the main strengths about this is is is that running like you say that tenacious kind of penetrating run that he is capable of because it immediately immediately made me suddenly think of Aaron Lennon and despite the fact that Aaron Lennon wasn't listen I mean let's say and I think he's probably done dirty a bit in these conversations but let's just at least say he wasn't the most technically accomplished player Aaron Lennon but he was still just so brutally effective for stretching teams for hitting teams on the counter for exploiting space for rattling opposition defenders you know and a lot of the time like you say we do over complicate football sometimes it is quite simple that you can have a really quick bloke that can just suddenly disrupt a plan that you have well this is how we're going to defend this is how we're going to set up but when somebody is capable of running at you with that sort of speed and that kind of ferocity it's it's a game changer and I think we really have lacked a player like that for probably a decade for ages yeah ages and ages obviously we didn't really play like that under Pochettino because we were so aggressive in the press we barely even had to we were winning the ball so high up and it was such a technically gifted squad that we were just we were moving the ball at such speed under Potts.

17:27I mean, I'm not going to get into why that was so good. But we didn't really go for out-and-out wingers. I think, you know, it's exciting because Thomas Frank can play in a variety of ways in which all of the players we currently have could become significantly better, especially in that front line. Whereas I feel like last year you started to see against us, especially against those teams that would sit in, we didn't really have the key to unlock those teams especially when madison was was injured we didn't have anything because we didn't have one v one technical wingers you know we had often had son and johnson um who both basically want to be in the area uh you know we were inverting the full backs rather than sending around the outside i want to talk like if you look at destiny a doggy at the weekend again 45 minutes but whatever but destiny a doggy as a touchline hugging fullback is brilliant he is so good and he looks physically back to where he was before his injuries as well which is really exciting he'll get a full pre-season a lot of these guys getting a full pre-season it's a massive win for us basically but no exciting and like the idea of going into a game where we know that the opposition is for large part is going to play in a low block and have maybe Odebeer and Kudus on either side causing trouble, that gives me a lot more hope.

18:55I'd be willing to at least pay to go and see that game. Whereas there were points last season where we were like, I know exactly what's going to happen now. There's no need to go to that game. Do you know what I mean?

19:07Jack:Let's try our best to ignore Morgan Gibbs right for now. Who are you playing? Who do you start and where do you play them next season? That's a good question. I mean, I guess there's still loads to be done in my mind to sort of get the squad to, I know Levy in that rare interview he did spoke about wanting the squad to be ready to fight on every single front and they wanted to build a team that was ready to challenge, blah, blah, blah. Obviously that doesn't happen over one window. But I do think there's players you need to get rid of, eh? And then I think there's players that you need to let them decide what they want to do with their future.

19:47And I think one of those is Son. I think there needs to be a very honest conversation with him about what he wants to do. If he wants to stay, great. If he doesn't want to stay, also fine. Let the man make his decision ultimately. But that's obviously a big decider on who plays as starting left forward because you have Odebeer, Tell and Son over there who are all vying for that kind of left inside forward position now. Obviously, Odebeer can play on the right and Tell can play through the middle as well. I'd say defensively, yeah, it's just that left, we're looking for like a left, left back, left sided to fill in that space.

20:25But I think you know what the best defensive line is. We've known for a few years now that it's Vicario, Porro, Romero, Vandervan, Odoge. That for me is the best starting five. and then if we're going with a two kind of two two in the pivot roles at the moment i'd probably go benton core and i thought burghel looked way off it by the way at the weekend but i would go benton core and burghel and then i would probably go son on the left if he's fit and firing madison in the 10 kudus on the right and solanke up top that would be my that would be my team with what we currently have um but i think there is work to be done in the in the central positions i think you could probably get rid of a couple of players and bring a couple of players in um and then yeah i think you definitely need to protect that 10 because in frank system i mean you look at how he uh what he did with michael damsgard kind of being the key to everything if Madison gets injured, if Madison picks up a knock.

21:37And we know Madison doesn't play a full season. So Spurs getting in, whoever it is, if it is Morgan Gibbs-White, that's an incredible signing for my money. But I still think, like Kulisevsky, obviously, there's a lot of questions to be answered about where people's fitnesses are as well, because there's been so many injuries over the last 12 months. But in a 10, I don't want to call it a six, I'll call it a pivot. central midfielder, that's where I think the money needs to be spent in a 10 and a pivot. And I would, obviously whatever happens with Richarlison as well, this defines if we need another striker.

22:17I know we've been linked with Visser, who I love, to be honest with you. I think there's still lots of work to be done. I'm slightly concerned that we're going off on tour in 10 days. And I think there's still quite a bit of work to be done to protect us from what happened last season? What about you?

22:36Jack:Well, it's quite an interesting one really, isn't it? Because if we do get rid of Richarlison, who I do dig out a fair bit on here, but I think he has a set of skills that's very good for the Premier League, I think, in the respect that he is technically very sound. He can play with his back to goal. He can link up play really well. But he can also just be that kind of shithouse point man at the top. He's really good in the air. It's funny that he's got this image of being like this kind of like wailing prima donna because he's actually quite a hard player, I think. He puts himself about, doesn't he?

23:17Jack:He's an absolute nightmare to deal with. And then I suddenly think Whistler, who is a fantastic player, don't get me wrong, but is probably more of a, I don't know, a sort of a throwback striker in some ways. he's quite you know diminutive almost like fox in the box it's not quite right because he can play out wide as well and i guess we'll probably like that versatility within a system like this within within most modern systems now really let's be honest you want players that are versatile and can can move in many different ways it would just be nicer to and look this is spurs and also i just think it's a it's a bigger premier league thing really but it'd be nice to just have a bit more clarity a bit earlier on because it suddenly it felt like when we had kudos through the door and then it suddenly we had morgan gibbs white seemingly done it suddenly felt like cool right so now our focus is going to be on a six and maybe another striker like you say but now with the morgan gibbs white thing still bubbling along still seemingly kind of being in this whatever it is um we don't we don't have that much clarity and i i think look the thing is i don't want to turn I'm really positive about going into this season.

24:30Jack:I think we have a good squad. I think we have a squad that is capable of finishing in the top eight, let's say. But also, you know, we're greedy, aren't we, football fans? We want to be as good as we possibly can be. Because I think the thing is, right, what you can see with this Spurs squad is you've watched enough football now to see where this squad is going to fall short, you know? And that's kind of that. You know, I can see in really probably in bigger games, Arsenal, City, Liverpool, where we're going to fall short because we're not going to be able to go toe-to-toe with them in midfield.

25:12Jack:And we're going to then see, as you say, we're going to see like our 10, if it is Gibbs-White or if it is Madison, probably stranded up top. Solanke having to drop back, working harder and harder and harder because again we don't have that anchor that is able to keep playing flowing and going but equally you can see us turning up at places like West Ham and smashing them off the park because yeah because we are we have got a really top heavy attacking talented team that is going to be capable of blowing some teams away which is exciting and I'm quite you know I'm looking forward to that I think I think you've kind of nailed what a lot of fans are thinking is this Gibbs White thing cannot um it cannot derail what needs to be quite an important summer of signings right like this bringing Frank in he has to get what he wants now pre pre going to going on tour because it's a whole it's a new management it's a new style we want everyone to be up and running by the time that the season comes around.

26:16And we have a fairly packed schedule in this pre-season. There's a load of quite heavy games. We've got Arsenal, Newcastle, Bayern, Munich, and then we play the Super Cup six days after that. And then we've got our first game of the season on the Sunday after that. So really, it's just going to come back to back. These games are going to come quite quickly, albeit pre-season games and then the Super Cup. But we really want these guys in because we don't have that long now. so really as excited as I am for the prospect of Gibbs White I'm not going to get caught up in it and Spurs need to make sure that this isn't derailing what needs to be a very exciting window and that position that you're talking about there that playmaker that technical player in the middle who dictates play, covers ground destroys attacks, blah blah blah that is the hardest position to sign for now in modern football I think everyone knows that to get a Rodri, you need to sign two players.

27:18To get a Declan Rice even, you need a couple of players. There is a standard of player and it's rare to be able to find them. And I think most professional footballers now would agree that that role is the hardest role in football because you get so little space and you have to make everything happen. And I'm not sure, you know, even the big names that are out there that get thrown around a lot, they're all still risks, you know, Belieber and Wharton and whatnot. You know, they're still young. But I am in absolute agreement that that's the player last year. I'd look at the midfield and go, I just don't know if these are the right people to take us forward.

28:01And I don't think any of them want to be that or have the ability rather to be that kind of progressive pass from midfield that we so desperately lacked last year.

28:11Jack:what do you think of um palina because it seems to be that link doesn't seem to go away at the moment i loved it i loved him when he plays when he played for fulham i have to say like a he was a real throwback in a lot of ways but he was also technically fairly good um i know he likes a lot forward passes i i'm slightly worried as to why vincent company doesn't fancy him in a team that could use a player like that. But I don't think that should put us off. If the price is what it's being touted as is around 20 million, I think it's a good signing. I think he's got enough in him to sort of cover what Spurs are looking for, maybe in the short term.

28:58And while we go searching for this longer term prospect, he also loves a tackle, which I'm not sure. Obviously, Benton Kaur is not scared of a tackle, but he's not in the same way. I don't think we have anyone who destroys play quite in the way that Paulinha does. So I think even if we say that it's him and Benton Kaur, that kind of maybe comes together to make one Rodri. That might have to be the solution for now because like I said, those players don't come up on the market that often and they often cost an absolute ton. And yeah, it's difficult. It's difficult.

29:35Jack:because that's I mean really what people are thinking is that's it's Adam Wharton that's what people are hoping he's going to be but I love him I love him honestly I love him but I think like I said it's still that thing of he how much would it cost to to pry him away from Crystal Palace this year they've got him till 2029 2030 so yeah no rush you know no rush on their part no urgency on their part sure they don't want an overly unhappy player but there's been no indication whatsoever that he is itching to get out of Palace or anything. I reckon he's probably quite happy where he is developing.

30:11Jack:Everyone's rating him. He's getting England call-ups. He's probably quite good. There's a few years yet for either if Rodri can't come back from his injury effectively, what's to say Manchester City don't just go, right, there you go, there's your 100 mil for Adam Watt. Exactly. It's that thing of

30:34yeah I mean when those conversations come around I'll be surprised if Spurs are still front of that queue to be honest and like you said I never thought I didn't see him moving this summer unless someone put 100 million pounds down on the table for him and maybe they will maybe they will and maybe it will be Spurs and maybe we'll see him playing in our pre-season tour but I don't see it

30:54Jack:I think I think one of the other things I really like about Polina is that and we've said for quite some time really that we've lacked more experienced heads there and I think having somebody who is in his 30s who occupies a position that you know we've got Bergvau and Gray both who are again they're not identical players to him but they will be able to learn from him they will be able to learn certain facets from his game that they can apply to their own as two young players I think it really helps to have somebody like him who hopefully can stay fit can stay consistent is the player that we saw at fulham not whatever has gone on at by munich like you say and i think there's many factors to consider there i mean i i honestly i have no idea whatsoever that's happened with his career at by munich the only thing i do know from what you do hear about by munich when harry kane went there is that it's one of those clubs like manchester united that is essentially like an emblem of German football as Manchester United is to English football really and as such there's such a level of scrutiny there's such a level of pressure on every single player that goes there that some players just aren't up for that you know and you can say you can chalk that down to well do we want a mentality like that but Rafa van der Vaart had the same thing at Real Madrid and Kamen was comfortably one of the best players in the Premier League when he played for us so it you know I don't to me anyway when players are at clubs like a Bayern or Real those old old money kind of big institutional clubs I almost just kind of disregard their form I think it's it's almost more that they have been good enough to be signed by that club is why clubs like Spurs still should be excited by taking any of those players so if the money's right I'm not saying let's go out and spend 50 60 mil on him but like you say I think the rumors the ITKs are saying it's something like 20 million euros or something it just seems like it seems like a smart move for Spurs to make and it feels like yeah like you said Thomas Frank has made it very clear he wants players who have Premier League experience and he's absolutely right to do that because despite the young lads having great seasons last year in in relative terms and showing the ability that they have they still were exposed in other areas.