Charlie Eccleshare on Missing Spurs' Europa League Win | Postecoglou’s Exit, Frank’s Future and Tottenham Clichés (Q&A)

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1:45Hello everybody, welcome back to Rule the Roost podcast. And I'm not sure if it's a first, I'm not sure if it's a debut or not. We were trying to ascertain this before recording, but let's just say for the pomp and circumstance of it, a very welcome debut to Mr Charlie Eccleshire how are you how are you doing mate I'm good yeah how are you I'm I'm very good mate how are you uh how are you doing away from away from football away from Spurs yeah I mean I keep my eye on the football with like football cliches and totally football show and things like that so I still feel fairly connected to it but yeah Spurs is the big thing because did you notice how I tried to correct myself there I was like yeah yeah I mean Spurs Well, no, I mean, for a lot of Spurs, it is football.

2:29You know, they're one and the same. But yeah, Spurs is a big change because I mean, I still do view from the lane occasionally. I'm doing our live show next week, which you must still come to see. Yeah, that is the big one. And that is, I guess that's strange because you, you know, even if you watch games of theirs fairly regularly or whatever, actually covering a club and being so kind of uh intensely linked to it all that that is quite a big shift when you kind of step away from that and you suddenly have a little bit of distance so you stepped away between angers seasons right yeah exactly so yeah after the first one yeah so i left at the end of angers first season uh having done five years covering the club um Yeah, and when I went, I mean, Ange was still like, so it was just my last home Spurs game covering Spurs was the Man City, you know, fans wanting them to lose, all of that, Ange getting annoyed.

3:29So it was like the first time there had been sort of those cracks appearing. But generally, when I left, he was still, I'd say broadly pretty popular with a kind of wing emerge, a sort of skeptic wing emerging. but I was like obviously the the Europa League run was amazing last season and you know I was sad to miss that but the first half seeing seeing things turn in a way that felt very familiar to me from you know other managers that I'd covered I wasn't too sad to miss another version of that I was going to ask I mean it must have been quite quite a conflicted feeling having covered Spurs for as long as you did you know a significant portion of your your professional life really see our various sort of near misses and then we went and got something over the line just after you'd left I mean Kilpatrick obviously lucked out a bit because it was his pretty much his last game his farewell yeah yeah yeah so they gave him a good send-off but you had the what is it like the Irish goodbye before the trophy came along yeah I had like Like my time at Spurs, just before I started covering them, they got to a European final, Champions League final in 2019.

4:42And then just after they got to a European final. So, yeah, so it was like, and I got all the kind of crises in between. Yeah, do you know what? Like I thought when I was weighing up whether to take the tennis job, one of my big fears was like, but what if I leave and something amazing happens with Spurs and then I'm going to be left sort of ruining it. In reality, I think anyway, I'm the kind of person who generally whatever I'm doing sort of takes my focus. But I was actually able, and I'm surprised because I'm generally like a very small person, I was able to kind of, with that Europa League run, yes, obviously there was a bit of FOMO and I would have loved to cover that final.

5:25But I did think, bigger picture, like this season, And, you know, Jack and Jay had had to sit through an awful lot of crap. I mean, there were all those Premier League defeats often that were just like incredibly repetitive. There wasn't like, you know, it's not like there was loads to say about a lot of them. So I actually was like, they've paid their dues with some of those games. And like having this incredible end to the season felt, I guess, like a reward for them and all of you guys for having to sit through all of that rubbish. Well, it's one of those kind of like, it was one of those sort of joyless periods, largely other than obviously winning a Europa League, where pretty much anything you say about Spurs, any opinion you express, you're just going to have people digging you out.

6:14I'm sure you didn't, you don't miss that side of it either, I'm sure. Because being so tied into, because, you know, your job when you're covering a club, you have to be so kind of, I don't know, well, you tell me. I mean, you do have to be very careful to like what the fan sentiment is. But also you do want to state an opinion on things, right? Yeah. And it definitely got really polarized. I mean, I think, yeah, different people care about it to different amounts. Like I think generally I was able to avoid getting too much heat from people because I think to a certain extent on things like social media, if you're very like abrasive with your opinions and you're you know you're doing it in quite an aggressive way you're going to get a lot of that back that's not really my style both in real life but also on social media so I think I I may have had strong opinions but I'd like to think I didn't communicate them in a particularly like aggressive or hostile way which then meant I was more comfortable doing it because I was like generally that meant I was treated in that that way in return.

7:20So even if I said things that people didn't like or didn't agree with, with some exceptions, I would say largely people were fairly respectful. I think as well, like you do, again, people have different views on this. I was always wary of kind of flip-flopping. And especially in an age of like, you know, people keep receipts, like you do have to, you do kind of have to be wary of that. But then the balance is you're either accused of flip-flopping or you're accused of sort of having an evangelical sort of devotion to a particular manager or player. So it's kind of like you want to be able to change your mind on certain things because, you know, that's perfectly OK to change your mind.

8:03I think like we you see this in politics all the time. It's like you must never, ever change your mind if you do your hypocritical and weak and all of that. But yeah, there were times when, you know, there was a particularly divisive manager or things like that. and it would sort of become a bit exhausting. Yeah, I had the joy of receipts being kept after a nasty tweet of mine about Ange Postacoglu was shared by a certain Australian journalist pretty much on the final whistle of the Europa League. So at least it softened the blow because I couldn't have cared less at that point. But yeah, my mentions were fun for a while after that.

8:45But it works both ways. I mean, like my favourite one, like on the podcast, because one of the few times, honestly, that I did get a lot of heat was when in February 2022, after Spurs lost to Burnley, I said, I still think Spurs will get top four. And it kind of like, if you actually look at the tweet in a fairly like offhand way, I think I started the tweet with that. And then there was quite a lot of other stuff about like, you know, but, you know, this isn't good and da, da, da, da, da. But that got picked up on as like, are you out of your effing mind? and then obviously they did and that was a very Alan Partridge needless to say I had the last laugh kind of moment and boy did I milk that but you've got to mate you've got to you've got to you've got to take those wins and within that run when I got hammered by James Moore and Danny Kelly on View from the Lane for saying that a game against Brighton wasn't a must win game I was like I don't think they need to win it I think they can not win it and still get top four and they lost 1-0 and got top four so you know I've kept those receipts The heady days of must-win gate.

9:43Yeah. Halcyon days. What did you think overall, Charlie, given that, like you say, you left at a point when things were maybe only on the slide with a certain slice of the Tottenham fan base with Ange Postacoglu. Second season was obviously a disaster domestically, but we've won a European trophy, first trophy in 17 years. lest we forget did you think the decision overall was was harsh how how do you think you would have you would have covered that yeah I think they I think they did have to get rid of him um it's tricky as well because like what I always found so interesting like I found really interesting to cover um and throughout his time I was always kind of fascinated I was like I just really want to like turn the page to the end of this book and find out what happens because sometimes when he was speaking it was a bit like a religious leader you were like this guy is so convincing like I really believe everything he's saying and I wonder if he is some sort of like messiah or genius I mean you know I don't actually wasn't actually thinking that but you could sometimes it was almost like he was giving a sermon sometimes those press conferences and so I was constantly like is he that or is it going to be like he's not the messiah he's a very naughty boy kind of thing like is is is he a you know is he like a I hate the word but you know is he a fraud in kind of football speak and what I think so kind of interesting I guess is that he was kind of both uh his time at Spurs you know he did win a European trophy and got them into the Champions League he ended that huge trophy drought but there's no way to sugarcoat it like the league in that second season was like a disaster I mean obviously some of it was linked to basically binning off the league.

11:34But, you know, we tend to think of, for a team like Spurs, like, you know, they couldn't drop lower than about 8th or 9th or 10th. You know, that's their flaw. They finished 17th. It's like kind of incredible to think of. And I guess like given that, I don't know. Was it 22 games we lost? 22? I think. It's crazy. Like it is crazy when you actually stop and think about it. and so I think like I thought what they might do is not sack him in a kind of like Roberto Di Matteo at Chelsea 2012 kind of way and there have been some other examples Ten Hag was you know a more recent example but then realized a few months into the following season ah shit like we really should have got rid of him and then you do that and you set yourself back further yeah so I think they did well to avoid that and and in a way you know like obviously for him it's not nice but he also leaves at the absolute zenith um and with his reputation less tarnished probably than it would have been if he'd stuck around it gone really south sort of this season and then people would be kind of saying like oh he just flukes Europa League kind of thing he definitely plays well from doesn't he he walked off into the sunset ultimately he's got his he got his nice sort of soundbite of saying I always win something in my second season and did it and yeah it's good you know he's arguably now a club that's should be set up quite well for him you know a chairman that is a is a personal friend so we understand of his and he wants to chuck money wants the club to be a success so I'm sure he's I'm sure he's smiling I'm sure he's all good I'm curious to see as well like the extent to which their season follows a similar pattern to Spurs you know how much as the Spurs last season how much they sort of just prioritize um the Europa League because I imagine Forrest I don't think they'll be sort of pushing for European qualification at that end of the table I don't think they'll do that well I also don't think they'll be in any sort of relegation uh trouble so if they are sort of safely mid-table I wonder if it will follow you know be the same sort of dynamic where you know you're resting players in the league for the Europa League game in the midweek like we had with Tottenham last season.

13:51Yeah. I hope they don't, might I? All the kind of like, oh, I wish him well. I hope he did. I'm not bothered. He's not Spurs. He's nothing to do with Spurs anymore. Thanks for the memories. It's time to say goodbye. So Thomas Frank obviously has come in. Have you been impressed by his start? Were you surprised by that as an appointment? Or do you think it was a smart one for Spurs? yeah I should I really like Thomas Frank ever since I was covering a game Brentford Spurs April 2022 just the game after actually the must win gate of Brighton and Spurs drew nil nil and it was kind of at the height of does Conte need to change the way he plays so anyway I was writing a piece on that so I went to Thomas Frank's press conference to ask him you know what's it like to play against Conte's team and system?

14:46Is it as predictable as it seems? And he gave really good, interesting answers. I mean, more or less saying, yeah, you kind of know what you're going to get. So he gave me some good quotes. And I just found him really interesting and engaging and personable. And after that, I always made a point to go to his press conferences when Spurs played Brentford, which I wouldn't always, that would very much depend on the manager. There would be some where it's like, they're not going to say anything interesting. I just want to get on with writing my Spurs piece. But with managers like him, I always would.

15:14So I've always found him a pretty impressive character.

15:21What his his and Spurs is sealing together is, I guess that's maybe where, you know, like with Ange, it was kind of like this could be a disaster, but it could also be incredible. Whereas I feel like Frank is a bit more, I think the floor is way higher, but maybe, you know, he feels to me a little bit like he'll be a bridge to something really good. And they need a manager like him just to get on a solid footing again after the kind of zany madness of the Ange era. And I think he'll do that really well. You know, we saw how good Spurs were against City. and I think that's again I think the challenge for him might be he's already shown that with Brentford that he can be really really good against top teams.

16:06His Brentford team were generally like a nightmare even for the best teams in the league to face but Spurs will have a lot of games where the pattern is very different and teams are going to come to them and basically look to defend and I guess I'm curious and I'm not saying they won't be able to do that but I'm curious to see how he then adapts to managing a team where they are always expected really to be the protagonists with the exception of a few games. Imagine buying your kid a toy only to find the batteries aren't included or buying furniture but missing the tools to build it. Frustrating, right?

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17:50This episode is brought to you by State Farm. Listening to this podcast instead of doom scrolling, smart move. Another smart move? Getting help from one of State Farm's 19 ,000 local agents when you choose to bundle home and auto. Bundling, just another way to save with the personal price plan. Prices are based on rating plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. But I really like him, and I think he'll, you know, create a good vibe. And so I think people will get support him. We'll get behind him.

18:26And he's more adaptable maybe than some think. I think he's been characterized a little bit as a kind of defensive set piece based coach. But I think he's generally adapted to what he has. And his Brentford team, as Jay will tell you, were more kind of expansive in the championship before they came up and then adapted. You know, you only have to look at how terrible most teams have been coming up from the championship to the Premier League in recent years to get a sense of how adaptable and smart Thomas Frank is. Do you think it's essential, not essential, I think essential is dramatic, but do you think it's important for Spurs to continue the momentum from last season, having won something, not wanting to obviously go another 17 years before they win something again, and make a fist of at least one of the cup competitions?

19:15I mean, it was a pretty strong side, we feel, did. Almost the first 11 against Doncaster last night. Yeah, yeah, it's interesting that. I mean, I guess how much that changes the focus of most fans, you know, whether it is a, you know, there was a period where it was all about Champions League, then it went to really wanting a trophy. Obviously, the great thing about last season was that Andrew was able to get them both of those things in one fell swoop, ending the trophy drought and also getting them Champions League football. but yeah I mean you know there aren't that many teams that can win or do win the domestic cups because the domestic cups have basically become an exercise in who has the strongest beating because everyone rotates so heavily early on I mean you look who's won the Carabao Cup in recent years yes there was Newcastle it's generally like Man City United a bit Liverpool Chelsea like and similar with the FA Cup again last season being an exception so they've got a good squad you know they should use it.

20:15And I think they will be, you know, they got to the semis last year at the Carabao. So, yeah, I think that is really important. And also, I don't know about you, but I feel like the last, Spurs' last Champions League season, 22-23, was such a bust. But the Champions League as this kind of like the promised land, the Holy Grail, I just, I don't think it really is anymore. I mean, I know financially it is, but I think for fans thinking romantically It's not like how Spurs would have viewed the Champions League in, say, that Harry Redknapp season 10-11 or even like a decade ago once they started getting back in the Champions League.

20:53And it was so exciting. I don't think it really is that anymore. It feels now more like a sort of more kind of functional thing that, you know, is great as you get to the last stages. But there's a lot of crap you've got to go through. I don't know if it's quite there yet, but I know what you mean. this definitely doesn't have the same excitement that it once did, but it does still carry with it the, I don't know, it's like getting under a nice duvet again. Oh, it's nice to be here. It's good quality. Exactly. There's good tog to this competition. I want to be here nestled in here. And dare I say it, dare I say it coming across as an entitled Spurs fan, you sort of feel like this is where we should be as well.

21:35this is the sort of level Spurs should be competing at. At least when you look at the trappings of the club, you look at the stadium, you look at the amount it costs to go and watch the club play. Fans are naturally going to expect a certain level of football and you only really get that from the Champions League. You only really get the recognition as a club when you're playing the Champions League. Yeah, that's true. I think my one sort of, because I think you do raise quite an interesting point there, because I wasn't particularly fond of the idea of Frank when we were going to bring him in.

22:12For many of the probably misconceptions that you said there, I always thought he's a bit of a Mourinho, it's a bit kind of murderable under Thomas Frank. and I think some people who have still got a bit of opposition to him view it through that lens and I personally don't think it's a good faith interpretation of what we've seen from Thomas Frank Spurs so far. I think, yeah, they have been quite functional. They have been probably more defensive-minded at times or at least keeping an eye on the defence more than, say, and did, who was, as we know, through caution to the wind a lot of the time, other than in our Europa League run, incidentally.

22:58But I think, yeah, what you've sort of touched on there is actually quite an interesting thought, the idea that Frank might be the guy that stabilizes things but doesn't quite take us up a level, for example, doesn't quite have that kind of clop-like effect on Spurs, if you want. Because that's the guy we're waiting for, really, isn't it? We're the guy that we want somebody that's going to turn Spurs from being that sort of nearly team to actually winning a Premier League, to actually maybe winning a Champions League. And that might sound kind of far-flung and ridiculous. But I think if you look at the kind of the direction of travel that the club's been going on, that's clearly what we aspire to do.

23:39And that's arguably the next level for Spurs that's that's what Spurs need to do next I mean yeah okay maybe winning League Cups FA Cups more consistently Europa Leagues if we find ourselves in the Europa League is something when you think about a club like Chelsea for example even when they're having like lean periods they're still usually hoovering up trophies like that and that's probably what Spurs need to get into the habit of doing more but in terms of bigger picture thinking if we want to win Premier Leagues, Champions Leagues, then is Frank that guy? I don't know. I choose to be hopeful that he could be, but I also kind of get that.

24:15There's just, I would just say that there's that nagging, there's that nagging little feeling in the back of my head where I also think, could he be sort of like a bit of an Emery for Spurs? Because I think about it because Emery had a very, he had a very good first season at Arsenal. I would say so. Good start to the season anyway. Yeah, I mean, it ended in disappointment, but it was solid. But like you got to a Europa League final, didn't you? I think you... Yeah, lost to Chelsea. I mean, Arsenal had like two tracks to get in the Champions League and just missed out on, but they lost the Europa League final to Chelsea and just finished fifth behind Spurs.

24:52So it was kind of like one that promised a lot, but ultimately didn't deliver. But yeah, that is quite a good comparison because, yeah, in a similar way. But again, it's so funny because this is what I mean. like Arsenal was sort of seemingly at their lowest not lowest ebb but that was kind of how it was reported they'd finished sixth in Wenger's last season you know that's what we were used to as kind of being you know the floor for a really big club and then then they then Emery stabilised they got fifth but then they were eighth a couple of times and again that was like eighth they finished eighth like how can you finish eighth like the way that Spurs and United you know last season kind of I don't know rewrote what we thought was possible in that sense.

25:34I guess there's a lot, it speaks to a lot of things, one of which is like the improved kind of overall quality of the league, but also just kind of how bad those two teams were for a lot of the domestic season. But do you think it's reflective of, because you think about like Arsenal, you think there are certain standards there, whether Spurs fans want to admit it or not, you know, there are certain standards there that like you say, an eighth place finish unthinkable for a club like Arsenal kind of thing. But if... Are Spurs now at the level, really? My point is, are Spurs now at the level whereby if Thomas Frank has a good first season, if Spurs finish fifth or sixth, let's say we finish fifth, I think we can finish fifth this season.

26:17We should be able to, at least. If Spurs finish fifth this season, we get to, say, a cup final or win a cup, a league cup or a FA Cup or something like that. and it starts off well and then next year it becomes a bit more of a struggle maybe people take spurs a bit more seriously again and they say well actually maybe they are you know a bit more of an outfit under frank and psychologically that that factors into how opposition teams come at you um and things don't go so well do you know are spurs the type of club now where players will down tools immediately and think this is not the guy because we've cycled through so many managers since Pochettino.

26:58We've, you know, you've been there, mate. You've been there across this whole conveyor belt of it. Are we the type of club now where if next year doesn't go to plan, suddenly that's another guy that's thrown under the bus? Because we hear all this talk of like projects, you know, you need to give a manager time, you need to give a manager three, four, five years or whatever. And obviously Arsenal have done that with Arteta, but Arteta really has, after a very rocky start, has exploded at Arsenal. I think we can say that. And you're playing the best football that they have done in two decades, for example.

27:34If Spurs don't reach those heights that Pochettino did very quickly, are we going to find ourselves in a position where we get rid of somebody again? You know, the Lewis is now in charge, want to make a statement. Are they going to go mad and think, well, let's chuck loads of money at Nagelsmann or something like that. It is really hard because you kind of, yeah, you need to be, if you are sort of brought in and you're given like a long-term mandate, like an Arteta or like a Klopp you mentioned, you're managing, you need to be kind of like, zoom out, progressing all the time. Like bigger picture, you're constantly making progress.

28:12But within that, you are going to have like a lot of setbacks and you need to, for those to be kind of accepted. I mean, even Klopp's Liverpool, they had a lot of like mad results in those first couple of seasons where he was where they were sort of working out what they wanted to be i mean they drew like a game three all at bournemouth where they conceded some late goals and you know even their champions league run in 2017-18 which was thrilling was kind of madcap and then they suddenly clicked van dyke came in allison they became this like incredible uh defensive machine but there's not a lot of kind of margin for error.

28:48You need to each season kind of be making fairly big strides. And so I guess maybe in some respects for Thomas Frank, you know, it's more... What happens is if you do well, expectations then change and you want constant progress. So if, you know, to be fair to Ange, you know, he got fifth in his first season, which was really, really good. But then it's like, well, we should at least be doing better than that in a second. Thomas Frank, if he has a good first season, and the expectations go through the roof, maybe it buys him a bit of time, but I don't think it tends to work like that. But Klopp is basically the only guy, obviously Slott won the league last season, slightly different way, but Klopp's the only person who's actually been able to do what every club wants and kind of build this project and then win the league with it.

29:37Arteta's come very close with Arsenal, but there aren't many. Like it's a really hard thing when you've got a team like City with the money that they do and they've got the best manager in the world probably i mean people might disagree on that now but let's be honest you know he's the best manager of this era and unlimited wealth psr notwithstanding like that's really hard to compete with like you've got to get so many things right um and yeah maybe the answer is to just to keep a manager for a long time but finding that right sort of unicorn person is not easy it's also a bit like with the PSR PSR what PSR isn't it you know especially tends to be with Manchester City yeah I don't know I'm intrigued to see I think it's there's so many variables now at Spurs we can't really follow these same patterns of thought because Levy has gone we were surprised to see that happen as well actually by the way I mean that's something we haven't even touched on yeah I mean it's one of those ones where it's like you know yes once he goes and you hear all the reasons and all of this and that actually wasn't that big a surprise you know it'd been coming and you're like yeah like obviously even when i was there they're always like there was always it was always being asked you know when's the new leave gonna go but when someone's been in charge for that time you kind of think well he's never gonna go because you know he hasn't gone yet he's such a survivor he was so like intertwined with that club I mean it was so everything about Spurs and leave you know it was his club you know he he was so um across all the details and all the different departments and that sort of thing it was not like a light touch um kind of running so yeah it was it was definitely like a moment really stopped me in my tracks you know and another one where it was like that was a story I always wondered whether I would cover when I covered Tottenham because that was a kind of constant talking point, I suppose.

31:39I mean, Levy was someone I wrote about a huge amount. There is a lot of fascination around him and a lot of understandable debate about how good he was, how successful he was. I think broadly you can divide it. He was brilliant for a time, and then I think things did get a bit stale. So I can see both sides of that. Pays Checkout is offered by your banks and credit unions. So when you shop online at participating merchants, your cards appear in one place, ready to use and kept up to date. And the best part, your actual card number isn't shared when you check out. Because boundaries are healthy, like no work emails after six.

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