Did Man City's Cheating Cost Tottenham A Decade Of Glory? (feat. Dan Kilpatrick)

0:00Jack:This podcast is part of the Sports Social Podcast Network.

0:25Hello everybody, welcome back to Rule The Roots Podcast.

0:28Jack:I know it's been a few days but look we're all enjoying the international break aren't we Dan? Dan Kilpatrick welcome back you enjoying the international break? Well the City story that I know we're going to discuss has made it a bit livelier than usual and of course this is the first three week international break so I was slightly dreading it going into it because I just thought there's going to be nothing to talk about and my job is news now for the Athletics so I thought there's going to be no news but actually it's not only that there's not no news there's probably the biggest news story possibly in Premier League history certainly of this year and maybe of any year so yeah I can't complain it's been livelier than I thought I was trying to think about anything that might have come close and didn't Spurs Spurs got done in the 90s didn't they we got kicked out of the FA Cup for financial irregularities I vaguely remember that I do not remember that it was something to do with Terry Venables and I don't know something strange It doesn't sound like it was quite on the scale of this magnitude.

1:30Jack:I think at the time there was some talk that Spurs were going to get relegated and they settled on kicking us out of the FA Cup. I might be wrong, so older listeners correct me if I am wrong, but that's vaguely what I remember. That's interesting. I should flag that. Maybe I can get Jack Pittbrook to revisit that. There you go, Jack. I imagine City would shake on being kicked out of the FA Cup now. to be honest oh no don't oh no not that yeah don't no not that please please keep something up yeah just before we do dive into that Dan Harry Kane the Harry Kane discourse are you enjoying that at the moment that he is the at fault for all of England's problems and he should be jettisoned from the side forthwith was that back very much so very very much so yeah really yeah he doesn't move anymore he's useless he missed a penalty against come on people people are trying to over intellectualize blah blah blah if i could even say it that would be handy but over intellectualize the fact you missed a penalty and they're a bit angry about it that's that's i didn't watch the game last night all i saw is that kane scored yet again and we've got some quite good quotes from tuchel coming i believe 7 p.m uk time on wednesday um i mean well they're dead they're quotes from a football manager so if that's your thing then look out for them on kind of England's struggle to replace Kane but I haven't seen any of the discourse about Kane being England's problem I know that comes around periodically and then there was a point I think just after the last Euros where I did wonder but I think wondering about Harry Kane as we all know by now just kind of only makes you look foolish really long term you just can't question the man he's apparently signing a new contract with Bayern Munich in which there is going to be something to do with.

3:26Jack:If an offer is made from the Premier League, Spurs have first right of refusal? Yeah, I saw that story. I saw it on a fairly, I think, unreputable website and had a kind of smile at it. It didn't ring true to me. I just can't imagine Kane going in and looking at the state of Spurs right now and demanding that they must have first refusal on any bid for him. But who knows? I like to think that he will still come back, break Shearer's record, and be the kind of one returning player that is a huge success. But it doesn't feel sort of likely soon, does it? No, I kind of feel like it's the further we get from him leaving us and the more spurs struggle, let's put it that way.

4:12Jack:It kind of feels like it's going to be one of those things when he's 35, 36, he might come and play with us in the winter when he's playing in the MLS. you know like Beckham did for a bit with AC Milan and stuff I kind of feel like it might be that sort of thing you know he's been going on about being a kicker and stuff but look Harry Kane it's a good shout I don't hate that though Kane coming back and having a you know outstanding December and first half of January or whatever the MLS winter break is would be quite fun well because that'll be him he's never going to retire from England duty he won't retire until they kick him out so you know that'll be it um manchester city we spoke about it at the top look this is a spurs podcast um to be honest in truth i don't really feel like city have really i mean carabao cup final but they've never really gotten in spurs's way we've always kind of beaten city and i don't think spurs have ever made a fist of a title race or anything like that in the time in which Manchester City have been dominant.

5:13Jack:If anything, Manchester City have always stopped Arsenal from winning more, really. So it's kind of one of those things that hasn't flagged so much from a Spurs perspective, but I do still think there's an important and interesting discussion to be had here about football, about the Premier League, about what we're all doing here. So first of all, hard to disagree. I think you could make a pretty strong case that Spurs have been the most impacted club by this. More than Liverpool? In the period we're talking, possibly Klopp's Liverpool because they would have been hugely dominant and I think they would be remembered in a different way.

5:56Yes, fair enough, maybe Liverpool. But in the period we're talking about, the period Tissier accused of cheating, they've been found guilty of cheating. I think Spurs missed out on the Champions League or finished fifth four times and City finished in the top four in those years as well so you were talking about a sustained period where and remember that Spurs weren't spending the money then of course everyone remembers this they had a self-sustaining model under Levy where really they spent what they earned and I think you can make a pretty compelling case that Spurs would have been able to grow as a club much more quickly and get to be far more successful had City not been found guilty of cheating in that period.

6:48So I think that's pretty big. Let's not forget that Spurs haven't always been one of the big six. They had to fight and claw their way there, doing it differently to a lot of the clubs around them. and I think this would have made a, you know, let's imagine that City had played by the rules and, you know, had to struggle their way up as well. There's a quite compelling case that, you know, Spurs would have been finishing ahead of them in, you know, all if not most of those seasons and, you know, would therefore have been able to kind of enjoy a lot more success than they had. So I think you're talking about, you can obviously measure that in revenue and I'm sure, you know, Daniel Levy or, I don't know who knows if he still cares but I'm sure that's what he would have been doing if he was still in charge but you can also you know measure that in success on the pitch and other kind of intangible things like the ride and the memories for fans and you know how that how that made you feel about your club and all these things and that's why this is this is just such a big story because it just it not only change it just changes so much about how we look at football over the last, whatever it is, 10, 15, 20 years.

8:04And as many other people have said, just kind of taints the entire period we're talking about.

8:09Jack:It's interesting. It's interesting you point that out to me because I guess, not subconsciously, but I guess my sort of reading on the situation was that this was mostly around the time of Pep Guardiola's tenure and maybe slightly before that. But looking at it now, yeah, it is. So these charges, or yeah, it's charges now, are from the 0-9-10 season to the 17-18 season. Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I was like, just completely forgot in my head. So I was avoiding saying it there. But yeah, exactly. And in that period, Spurs finished four times. That's it. And in that period, Spurs had, you know, we, as we know, Crouch at the Etihad, we beat City to that Champions League place.

8:53Jack:And I think that felt seismic, didn't it, at the time? Because I think to me, it certainly did to me, and I'm sure it did to many people listening. It almost sort of felt like this is the last chance we're going to get to do this because City are starting to spend all this money now. And it felt really frustrating as a Spurs fan at that point because that level then, us getting into the Champions League at that point, felt like the, I guess the destination we'd arrived at after a decade plus of careful, slow building and steady progression that as much as we kind of, you know, his legacy is tainted nowadays, we lord Daniel Levy for and Enoch to a certain degree.

9:37Jack:That sort of, the model that we all you know let's say cheerlead brighton brentford and so on for is what tottenham were doing back then and we became a champions league team and then i guess that got snatched away from us by by manchester city so yeah you're right to say that i'm talking nonsense so that it didn't affect i think i'm just you know what with all of this with all this conversation i don't want to sidetrack this too much but i think a lot of my opinion on this is tainted by chelsea as well who i know have I mean, they've had their brushes with this type of thing, but to my mind, nothing as significant as you feel like is going to happen to City, worth bearing in mind.

10:17Jack:We have no idea what the actual sanctions for Manchester City are going to be yet. But still, it feels like Chelsea are a team that have really, really gotten in Tottenham's way quite actively at various different points down the year and in really painful fashion as well. I don't know, it just feels like their name is completely left from the discourse on this. But still, back to Manchester City anyway. Essentially, if anyone wasn't aware, 114 of the 115 financial charges have been brought forward by the Premier League. I'm pretty sure it was an independent team who have been dealing with all of this.

10:54Jack:They've essentially uncovered that Manchester City had signed a load of sham contracts that were designed to artificially inflate revenues and reduce costs between those two periods, 2009 and 2010 and 17 and 2018. and City have committed multiple breaches regarding their duties of cooperation during this investigation as well. City have put out their own statement about this. The club is disappointed and surprised by the verdict. They've got a comprehensive body of irrefutable evidence to prove their innocence. They say there's many errors of law, principle and fact with these allegations and they're launching an immediate appeal.

11:34Jack:I mean, Dan, I guess just from your perspective and from everything you've heard from working in football and the reporting of football, it feels like the Premier League have, well, it doesn't feel like, the Premier League have been very punchy. Big punchy statement last night on the Premier League's official website. I'm sure that was released to press. I would imagine there's no doubt in their mind whatsoever that they have a cast iron case against Manchester City here, right? Well, yeah, I think so. I mean it was I think the Premier League put you know reputations and and jobs on the line frankly in bringing this case against City you know I think if City had been cleared entirely imagined by the by the independent commission then it would be very hard to imagine you know say Richard Masters kind of just carrying on in the job after you know bringing this huge case against one of its clubs so I think yeah the Premier League have been very confident from the start that they have had a really strong case against City.

12:37And obviously, we've got the appeal to come and as everyone, as City keeps saying, there's obviously a long way to go in this process. But I think, as it stands, the Premier League have been fully vindicated in bringing this case. And as you say, they've gone very, very hard against one of their clubs. and at the moment, you know, they've absolutely come out on top. So, yeah, I mean, I think it just feels like the most seismic thing in the history of the Premier League, really. I mean, funny you mentioned Chelsea. You could maybe say that, you know, the other kind of big event that just kind of changed everything was maybe a Bramovich buying Chelsea.

13:17But, you know, this feels like the kind of ramifications and long-term fallout could be like even more significant.

13:23Jack:I mean, is there any indication whatsoever, any ITK, Dan, as to what the sanctions are going to be? No. I mean, certainly I haven't heard anything and I don't think anyone knows yet. I think it was such a closely guarded secret, wasn't it? I mean, it's kind of easy to forget already that like until, what was it, Friday last week, we were still just kind of waiting without really any knowledge of when this was going to drop. I think the first whispers of it were kind of going around on Thursday that there might be something soon. But, you know, this has been a really long process and it's been an incredibly watertight process in terms of kind of leaks, I would say.

14:03There was so little of this that, you know, escaped the media. People were just relying on guesswork. You know, there wasn't any strong sense from anyone. I don't think that, you know, they knew what the outcome of the commission was going to be. It wasn't like people were widely confident the city were going to be found guilty or, you know, or widely confident of the opposite. So, no, I don't think anyone but a select few people kind of know what's on the table. But, you know, given, I think we knew it was serious, but I think what the Premier League statement yesterday on Tuesday kind of highlighted was like just how serious this is.

14:37And the numbers are kind of staggering and sort of around nightly, you know, they overinflated their revenue by 900 million pounds. I think the Premier League says, which is more than the total revenue of a lot of the clubs in the league at the time. So, you know, if the Premier League, if City don't win their appeal and, you know, this is upheld, then, you know, we're talking about kind of cheating on like a staggering level, really.

15:05So, yeah, I think the time when we were all just kind of thinking, oh, they're just going to get a fine and it will be, you know, that will be okay for them because they're owned by a state. I think we're kind of past that, aren't we? Like no one really thinks now it's just going to be a fine. But, you know, again, that's kind of more educated guesswork than I think what people have been told by sources because it is just still such a watertight process. I mean, there's a part of me that, look, you know,

15:32Jack:there's many layers to this as a Spurs fan. I know Manchester City are sort of a second team for us a lot of the time because they stop Arsenal from winning stuff and all that type of thing. But I think this is one of those, for me personally, anyway, this is one of those situations where with all of this looking like it's true, like you just, you have to throw the book at them. Like, I just, I don't, I don't see, it's terrible for Manchester City fans, to be honest. And I know people will be saying, poor them and everything, but, you know, they're the ones that are going to get caught up in all of this.

16:02Jack:And with, I guess, with the, perhaps the theatre of all of this, mate, the prolonged nature of this, you know, this is, it's almost become a meme, right? 115 charges has become a bit of a meme in terms of nobody's ever doing anything to Manchester City. Everton got a points deduction for some financial irregularities. What about Manchester City with their 115 charges and Arsenal are always going on about 115 and all this type of thing? And it sort of felt like something that was just going to get swept under the rug. But with this theatre surrounding it now the past few days, with how big the Premier League are coming out about it, you know I'm basing this on nothing and this is nothing Dan's told me off air and I'm just talking as a fan shooting from the hip it feels to me anyway it feels to me like there is something massive going to happen here it feels to me like the Premier League are if they can if there's legal basis to do so kick Manchester City out the league and that to me feels like what what happens then I doubt the EFL is gonna I doubt the championship clubs at least in the EFL are going to be delighted to have Manchester City just be able to drop straight into the championship walk back into the Premier League after a year that doesn't feel like much of a punishment so then what's the next option do they get they get kicked out of the football pyramid entirely do they have to build up from the very beginning do they have to re-register you know I don't know this is kind of it feels quite chaotic and it feels quite mad doesn't it because it feels like there's no real punishment other than that that can match the fact that at least 10 years, if not more, we're talking almost 20 years now, really, if we're going back to 2009, of football has just been completely bastardized.

17:46Jack:The Premier League, the integrity of the competition that is propped up by billions of pounds every year from broadcasters, from sponsors, from fans, from all of it across the whole spectrum, has zero integrity. has been completely gamed and I just I don't think there is I don't think you can slap Manchester City on the wrist if this is all true I don't think you can just slap them on the wrist and say here's a massive points deduction that means you're going to go down to the championship for a season but then you'll come straight back up and carry on winning everything again I just I don't know mate I just it's do you see what I'm saying like it's a very bizarre position to be in yeah totally it's almost difficult to get your head around really I mean I think the only thing I can say definitively is that the noises from the Premier League seem to be that the punishment will be forward-looking, not backward-looking, right?

18:40So that's been reported in various places, including by us at The Athletic. And I think what that means is they're not going to strip titles and start reassigning champions and reassigning cups. They're going to do something that's going to hamper City going forward, which would obviously point to a points deduction or an expulsion or like a fine so crippling that, you know, they can't continue to function or whatever. I just don't know. We're just in the realms of guesswork here because this is just uncharted territory. Nothing like this has ever happened before. I think one thing I have heard is that part of the problem for the Premier League is let's say you give them a massive points deduction and let's say, I don't know how long this process is going to take but the Premier League said in their statement yes, they want to conclude it as soon as possible.

19:21Let's say in January you give them a 75-point deduction or something that would guarantee relegation more or less. The problem is the whole rest of your season that the product is completely damaged. You know, all the City games are more or less meaningless. Do they throw the season? Do they stop playing their first team? You know, what are the implications for that? You know, how do you maintain the integrity of the competition and the integrity of the product while giving them a suitable punishment? I think that has to be one of the questions. Does it become a multi-year points deduction? You know, are they kind of crippled, you know, at the start of each season for the next five, ten years or for the length of time that they have found to have cheated.

20:04I don't know, but it's such, we're talking about such a sustained period here and such a profound impact. You know, it's not like they did this and they were moderately successful. You know, they did this and were the most successful club in the history of British football as a result of it. So it's really hard to grapple with. And then, yeah, as you say, the other thing is just the fact that whatever punishment they get, we can't get back the kind of years of football that now feel tainted and kind of lost and it just feels like nothing that happened in that period relating to City was fair and that's you know that's a problem that you can't kind of find a way or make go away by deducting points or expending them from the league it's just how it is now I think and that's an enormous shame I mean it's funny isn't it like it'd be quite fun to talk about like how we felt about City over the last few years because like as you say that they've been a very useful vehicle for stopping Arsenal from winning stuff in the last three four five years but I think that has almost come for me personally that has almost come from a sense that I kind of knew they were cheating anyway like deep down or I felt that they weren't playing by the same rules purely on the basis, I didn't know that they were creating sham contracts, but you had a sense that the fact that they were owned by a state, and a state like Abu Dhabi, and the fact that, I mean, you could literally see it, you know, the fact that their sponsors were on the front of their shirt and around the stadium.

21:38You could literally kind of sense that, hold on, something's not right here. And the fact that most people where we are in Surrey don't know many Man City fans made it all the more easier just to say, well they don't really feel like a real club that's playing by the same rules as us so actually I don't really care I'm not going to feel anything if they go and win the league whereas I would feel despair if if Arsenal do and like I was very happy to express that feeling and I have been happy over the last few years but I've got to say now I just now I feel a bit grubby about it and I'm not saying we should all have wanted Arsenal to win because that's that's not what being a fan is about But it's quite pathetic, isn't it?

22:18Jack:It is quite pathetic. It is quite pathetic. And I'm kind of, it's just weird when you've got such a strongly held opinion. You think, oh, that's fine. And then you suddenly look back on it and think, hold on a minute. Another example. It's like a peep shame meme, isn't it? Like, am I the bad guy? Yeah. I mean, there's that sort of, I think the most spiteful, pathetic one as well for me is Liverpool, Klopp's Liverpool, who I think, especially with some, you know, The dust has kind of settled on the fact that there was something of a burgeoning rivalry between us and them in the early stages of the development of that Klopp program, right?

22:55Jack:And then they surpassed us and kind of left us behind a bit. They left Pochettino's Tottenham behind a bit, which was quite painful to see the heights that they went on to. And I remember being delighted every time Manchester City would stop them from winning a trophy. But now some sort of dust has settled. And I know people are all like, oh, you know, Scousers are unbearable and stuff. But that team was unbelievable. They were incredible. You know, and when we're talking about football as a spectacle, when we're, you know, I sit on this podcast every other week and I say, football's crap now.

23:27Jack:Maybe it's because I'm getting older, but I feel like it's crap. I feel like it's not as fun anymore. I feel like there's not as much peril anymore as there used to be or any sort of jeopardy. That's the word I'm looking for more than peril, really. Versus how it sort of used to be like. and you still see people all the time posting clips from the Premier League from 2007 or something like that, where they say, look, football was just a bit better back. I can't in good faith sit here and say that a team like Klopp's Liverpool that should, as you say, should have had a dynasty. They should have had probably three or four Premier League titles to their name, right, at least.

24:06Jack:They can look back on whatever their season was, 99 points losing one game not winning a premier league title that we look back on that and say well it's kind of funny because manchester city won it instead and as you say to your point it's true nobody cared i didn't care when city won the treble i i didn't there wasn't even that part of me that felt like oh that's quite good they've they've done that that's that for all the crap around it there's a group of there's a group of players there and there's an incredible manager there in Pep Guardiola who has managed to coach us I didn't think that at all I didn't think that because like you say in the back of my head I was like well they've they've fucking cheated haven't they like they have and we all know they have we know they continue to cheat but we've whether we think it's in this way that has now come to light or if it's been playing the system and just pumping loads of money into it there was an artificial sense of victory to it I think the only thing I would say that I look back on the City era and say it's the Aguero goal which was just such an incredible narrative and incredible way for it to unfold that you can't think well that was that was kind of cool but is there anything else i look back on this year of manchester city dominance and think was actually good no not really um no they just inspired such a kind of apathy and sense hopelessness in neutrals i think because you just felt i mean particularly as a spurs fan when you knew that levy and enix were running the club in a certain way you just felt well we were never going to be able to compete with these guys um and kind of as a consequence it didn't matter when they beat your team and beat everyone's team um i just didn't feel anything i felt kind of numb to their success whereas as you correctly identify there was a real crossroads point where poshertino and clopp were both these kind of mad geniuses who had come to the premier league about the same time and were building hugely exciting kind of modern teams that played exhilarating front foot pressing football and were great to watch.

26:04And there was a point where we were very clearly ahead of them and it was a 4-1 win at Wembley, wasn't it? I think it almost kind of feels like a sliding doors moment and that Liverpool changed a lot after that and Spurs only declined and changed very little. And therefore, as you say, it was kind of very painful watching them go on to be successful because you felt, well, that's the team Spurs could have been if they had backed Pochettino. Whereas with City, I don't think there was ever a sense that Spurs could have been that team because they were backed by a state and Spurs were backed by...

26:33Jack:Nor would we have wanted them to be, right? I don't think... No, no, but I just never felt like that was an attainable level. Whereas with Liverpool, even though they reached similar levels, you felt like it was so much more organic that actually it could have happened and therefore you wanted it to happen less. It's really strange. It's really strange. But City have just been this really useful vehicle for stopping everyone else. and I now feel really mixed feelings about having viewed them in that way. In some ways, you might say they even gave Daniel Levy a bit of a get-out-of-jail-free card because I'm fairly certain in several of his chairman's letters or at least statements out to a Bloomberg or something like that, he would talk about how difficult it is now.

27:24Jack:given the landscape of football given the money that's been spent by teams like Manchester City well he was right he was kind of right though wasn't he but like yeah I kind of wish Levy was still running Spurs just for the reaction to this because I think he would be at the front of the queue of Premier League clubs demanding reparations and he would be really fighting Spurs corner and everyone else's corner this is the kind of stuff he was good at whereas I think Vinay who will ultimately be making the decision on how Spurs respond to this now is so much more of a kind of company man that he'll probably, you know, it's just my view, but I'm guessing he's, you know, he'll call up Richard Masters and ask him what he should do.

28:08Whereas I think Levy would just, you know, have very clear views on exactly how to respond and it would be fierce. So yeah, I do wonder if he's actually, that for all his faults would be a good person to have in your corner in this scenario do you think

28:27Jack:i guess the question here is with manchester city maybe being the you know the lance armstrong in this example that them opened up and saw there was a sport-wide issue at play right with a lot of kind of doping and all that type of thing with manchester city being such a prominent example but at the same time a club that has probably infinite resources to fight the premier league on a legal basis and also to probably, I dare say, launch their own investigations into the conduct of other clubs and everything around the league. Do you think there is a worry that this guilty verdict could open up the floodgates for a lot of other clubs having their dealings, their business put out in the spotlight and for Manchester City to say, well, if you're coming down on us, here's a body of evidence to show you that everybody else is being a bit naughty.

29:19Jack:I think the way that this opens Pandora's box is not like that. But I think what this opens up is every team and their dog to, God, I just immediately thought of a win. The Mikel Arteta dog there.

29:43You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. this this is immediately opens up everyone to get litigious right and like you know in the example of Spurs they can say well we missed out on four Champions League qualifications that would have been worth X and we are owed X as a result of that there'll be relegated clubs who could say we lost a city in this period and therefore we lost out on hundreds of millions of pounds there will obviously be teams that were denied trophies like the title and And pretty much everyone who's played in the Premier League in that period of 2009 to 2017 you mentioned now has a case to say, well, hold on a minute.