Heart vs Head with Kish from Lilywhite Lab | The Newcastle Dichotomy, The Xavi Simons Mystery & The Vicario Question (Q&A)

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1:59Jack:Hello everyone, welcome back to Rulerish Podcast. Kish, welcome back mate. Kish of Lilywhite Lab. Thanks for joining me again mate. Happy to be here, man. Happy to be here. Happy to be talking about Spurs? No, not. But you know what? It's just become like, it's become my life now. Like, this is just what I'm doing. So it's getting easier to just like separate, compartmentalise, I think. But I remember last time I was on here, we were very excited. So it's a very different podcast, I'm sure, today. Well, let's stay on that theme of compartmentalising. because do you think it's fair to say you can be happy as a Spurs fan on an emotional level that you've gotten a point away at St.

2:42Jack:James' Park, that the club captain has scored two worldies, that he's rattled Bruno on the opposition team doing his celebration, Dan Byrne, who had been shithousing us all game, watched the ball float past him. He'd be happy about all of that. That's good and that's right and that's what fans should be. But equally, you can sit down and look at that game and say, did Thomas Frank's approach earn as that result or was it two moments of brilliance from Christian Romero I'm just throwing that out there mate I think one one can be happy with that result if they choose to be I mean I'm not um I think that there's there's like a bigger picture thing here so like if you if you were at the game in the away end 100 % you're buzzing because like it's a different experience when you get when you get a last few minute goal away from home and you're in the crowd and it's like going crazy I think that is something that you're always going to love I think if you're sitting at home watching the game and you just see us getting a point at St James's Park in that fashion I think fine happy with be happy with the point but then you just got to look like but what there wasn't any sign of progress there so just because we got a point extra in the table that's not that's not like propelling us into anything else we are now just in the same position with an extra point.

3:58It's not like we saw something from that game where I was like, okay, we can build from this. So, yeah, I mean, by all means, people can be happy with the result. But I just think if you're looking at the bigger picture of things, I don't think anything in that game showed me anything more positive than what I was feeling before.

4:17Jack:Do you think there's something here about the way in which we enjoy football, the way in which we appreciate it? Because obviously football is about moments. It is about those emotional highs. And again, I'm not going to sit here and pretend I wasn't buzzing when Romero equalised. It was a great goal. It was great to see the scenes, all that type of thing. I did love it. But it didn't take away from the feeling that, as you say, bigger picture, it doesn't feel like we're sort of moving towards anything. I didn't feel the same sense of this could be a moment. This could be a springboard for Tottenham.

4:54Jack:I saw it as a pretty tricky game. And look, we have to face the fact St. James' Park is a difficult place to go, all that type of thing. They do play a sort of style of football, I would say, fairly reminiscent to Arsenal's. It's intense. They will try their best to limit your opportunities. So, yeah, we do have to acknowledge that. And obviously, we've got a horrible record there. So, I do think there are certain emotional positives to take from it. so maybe i i guess the point is like you know my stream after after the after the game i was trying to reflect on it in what i thought was a fairly kind of down the line fashion in the respect that like i was acknowledging the good parts of it but also saying what we're sort of saying here that i didn't think bigger picture i was getting much to convince me that thomas frank was say back on the right track and it was all you know this is so negative why are you being so negative why are you talking about you know this in this way cheer up mate all that type of thing which you know fair enough if people people sort of want to read it that way but i just i don't know i just i just wonder if that's if that is what some people want some people want to just cling on to the emotional parts of football i don't think that's wrong um but i do i do i do i do still have concerns about Thomas Frank and really what it is that we're trying to achieve with him here I'm not going to sort of sit here and definitively say that I have a strong opinion either way on him staying or going I'm decidedly on the fence about it right now um because I see that there's sort of pitfalls to both of it but I just I don't know I'm finding it hard to get very enthusiastic about the future under him you've uh you you've sort of done a video along this type of theme um you put out on your on your youtube channel yesterday kish do you want to sort of tell us about it a bit because i think there's some really interesting stuff on this sort of topic that you covered in there yes i think um i think my my view of football like i like i discussed in the video has always been very idealistic and sometimes too idealistic where i want everything like in my in my actual life I'm a bit of a perfectionist so I think like I view football in that same way where like I want everything to be exactly as I want it like and if it doesn't meet that I always struggle to to be up for it or be happy about it and I think like football especially I've always seen it as like cliche but the beautiful game and like I love it because of those things I don't necessarily love it I mean moments are great and stuff and obviously last minute goals are great um but I think moments have to be like those moments I only really enjoy if they're a part of something bigger so like if you're you know if you're playing a very sustainable way of playing and you're playing beautiful football and you'll be you're getting wins and wins and then maybe you have one game where you're really it's not it's not quite clicking but then you get a last minute equalizer then great like I'm that that's I'll be buzzing with that but it's like for for that on its own to kind of just mean nothing.

8:01That's not really why I watch football. I know people watch football for different reasons. I've watched football always for entertainment. Like as much as I'm a huge Spurs fan, I'd say I'm a bigger fan of football itself. And so like I've always enjoyed watching players from around the world, like the great Barcelona teams, so many Brazilian players who I loved and stuff like that. And I kind of said that a lot of that is the type of football that I grew up playing, the type of player I was. Also the type of players that I was playing with as well. And I don't know, like my school team had like some amazing footballers and we just all liked to play football the same way.

8:48And a lot of them went on to kind of play professionally. And I don't know, I just I think my kind of upbringing and my dad as well. My dad was a huge, like his favorite players were Berbatov, Glenn Hoddle, Modric, Dembele. So mine, to be fair. So it's like, I think I've always grown up around the beautiful side of the game. And so I think I understand and acknowledge that football now is not necessarily that. And you have to find that in certain teams. And a lot of the teams that do have that are teams that spend billions and billions and, you know, your PSGs and stuff. But I can accept kind of the other side when it's Tottenham.

9:26I can accept it when I see that there's a means to an end. And like the point of it is to be effective and get results. But when you're not getting results and you're still playing boring football, I just don't see the point in any of that. And that's where I'm at right now. I just see, I'm like, we're not getting results and I'm not enjoying a single minute of these games. um you know i'm spending money to go to the games um i'm spending a lot of time making videos about the games which people would say just just stop making videos but i mean i'm trying to build something here so that's that's why i continue um yeah it's it's difficult but then i know but and i my the point of the video was that i was trying to acknowledge that that this is my view this is why it's my view but i know that people have different views um and i think i i'm bad at kind of accepting that not everyone sees football that way and I'm trying to be more more accepted

10:23Jack:we all are to a degree though aren't we that's yeah it's why football discussion tends to go the way that it does especially when you if you use like Twitter as a sample size but it's at the same time you know there's plenty of uh I heard there's plenty of ag at the Fulham game like spurs on spurs not I don't think anything actually like broke out but I heard there was quite a few disagreements should we say in the stands and stuff around that game and I wonder if this speaks to the bigger kind of thing we were sort of talking about with it a bit before we started recording here that it's actually quite surprising dash depressing that we're already having these type of conversations at the end of november early december are you are you actually like i you know are you quite surprised that frank's tenure has gone the way that it has done so far I'm super surprised I think in hindsight I was probably a bit naive in terms of I saw like a very smart man on the surface who adapted his no, continued to have similar principles at Brimford but adapted his shape adapted slight things in the system adapted obviously players came and left and he dealt with that very well and they were building a slightly more progressive style in year three but caveat that is Brentford so the the setup is just and I've tried to explain this so many times because I've seen I've seen a few tweets saying but Franks Brentford was so good going forward and I was like yeah but their team that team was set up for the Franks style because teams are not going to sit back against Brentford teams are always going to have a go against Brentford which obviously leaves the spaces in behind that Frank loves to exploit with those clips in behind which he's kind of trying to do with us but obviously against Spurs teams don't leave that same space because the higher we've got higher quality players just the expectations are different but I kind of thought that Frank would recognize that and and obviously know that the requirements at Spurs are going to be completely different from Brentford and that he would create a sort of game model that would be very different from his Brentford team you know maybe maybe kind of instilling some of the details like the set piece stuff and the data analytics stuff, but would create a more sustainable way of playing for a top club.

12:44Now, where we're at, it looks like he's genuinely just plug and played exactly what he was doing at Brentford and expected it to work, which I think is just ridiculous. But it's also taught me a bit of a lesson that I think a lot of these managers stick to what's made them successful and stick to what has got them to where they are. And kind of, it's very rare, I think, that a manager goes into a new club and creates a whole new way of playing. Even these kind of, quote unquote, flexible, adaptable managers, I don't think they really exist, to be honest. And I think the best managers don't really adapt that much.

13:25So I think it has definitely taught me a little bit about that. Do you feel that it could be going a bit better if the squad were more balanced?

13:38Jack:Because obviously one of the conversations that we have a lot of Spurs fans is outside of whoever's in charge of the club right now in a managerial capacity, the bigger issue is the club ownership, the strategy that has been implemented with regard to squad building with, say, footballing outlook at the club, a vision of success that has been lacking in anything other than a business sense. Do you feel that like, you know, it's again a case of Thomas Frank has been, yeah, as we sort of said, revenge, they've been played a bad hand, but they're playing it fairly badly as well. Or do you feel that, say, if he did have more backing, if we had managed to get, say, for example, the Ezzedil done, something like that, if we were more decisive in the way that we conducted ourselves with transfers, that Frank might be getting more of a tune out of this if he had the tools at his disposal.

14:38Yeah, to an extent, I'd say. I don't think the upside is where we want to be in terms of, yeah, maybe we'd be a couple of wins better. I think the 10 situation for me, Eze doesn't really fit what Frank wants either. so I think the one that he probably wanted was Gibbs White and I think Gibbs White for sure probably makes us better in the way that we're trying to play again how sustainable is that style in terms of trying to compete I don't think it's very sustainable but Gibbs White is powerful he's he's strong in jewels he's got a bit of quality as well in the final third can carry the ball really powerfully so I think that's Frank's probably perfect 10 so that that might have made a difference but let's be like honest in terms of comparatively to the windows that managers have had in the past frank probably had the best window in 10 years i'd say in terms of he got four starters two of them alone but they're first team ready players colomani obviously had injuries but i think colomani is a top striker i don't think we've seen anywhere what he's capable of yet and we've still seen glimpses um Pelinha I don't rate but he obviously wanted him he's a he's a first team level player um Kudus obviously and Simmons who's a like a very very talented number 10 managers at Spurs haven't had that that amount of backing in a while um and cool there's there's still holes in the squad um but there's been holes in the squad for different holes but But same thing all the time I've been a Spurs fan.

16:16There's always been, if we just bought this and this, then we'd be competing or whatever. The only time we could probably say that it wasn't was probably under Potch. But again, then it was like, well, squad's not big enough. So I think there's always been holes. And managers have done what they can with those holes and made us more competitive than we are right now. So yeah, I think in a sense, I think, yeah, we'd probably be a slightly better team. but would we be where we want to be? I think absolutely not, personally.

16:46Jack:Well, I mean, let's talk about Xavi because he's, you know, it's sort of the elephant in the room now that he just doesn't really factor into Thomas Frank's thinking. He's not starting games. When he does get minutes, it's usually kind of piecemeal bits at the end of games, say last 15 minutes, last 10 minutes in some instances. for a side that is like bereft of creativity, of real kind of attacking output, it's hard to look at this as anything other than, say, a stylistic decision. I mean, Thomas Frank has sort of said when he was last asked about it, he said, Xavi has been fine, as we've seen with other players coming into the Premier League for the first time from other leagues.

17:34Jack:It's not straightforward. It's a natural part of the development or adjustment to the league, different games, different abilities. um and he sort of goes on to talk about the fact that he needs time to adjust and adapt but obviously the the response from a lot of fans that you see online has been well how is a player going to adjust or adapt if he isn't getting meaningful minutes i i sort of personally believe and i i you know i don't think i'm i don't think i have like a an agenda or a bias towards this but i do tend to feel that despite not being perfect when he plays the team often seems to be more ambitious in what it does unsurprisingly when xavi plays so i find it hard personally when i'm looking at this to see this as anything other than a stylistic decision made by thomas frank i mean how how would you sort of approach that i would i would i would firmly agree i think is this is and this is where it comes down to the alignment is all off because your recruitment staff should always choose the players I think this is I think I think the best clubs operate in a way where the recruitment is that aligned with what the club want to do regardless of the manager they bring in managers that suit what they want to do so you know what Spurs have been so bad at is flip-flopping between styles and types of managers and you buy a bunch of players and then you bring in a manager who wants something completely different.

19:08And then a lot of those players are not fit for that purpose. I think the best clubs have a style they want to build around. And the manager is part of that. The same way you recruit players, you recruit managers that suit that overall style. I think what the issue is here is that obviously the recruitment staff wanted, well, probably didn't want Xavi as their number one choice, but they chose Xavi in the end to kind of cover that number 10 role. but he's the opposite of a frank 10 so then that's the misalignment again um i think frank playing bergval as a 10 sarah as a 10 just shows just exactly what he wants from his 10 and even though bergval is not this player he's a he's a big boy like he can compete in in aerials he can run a lot he can um support the the sitting too but he can also get up and support the wide players he's not nimble like he's nimble in a different kind of way he's nimble in terms of like when he's in his stride he can he can change direction but he's not someone you want receiving in that 10 role where there's like you have to make split decisions and you have to be really cute with your with your passing I think his best moments come from when he carries it from deep and you don't get that really with him in the 10 so I think clearly Frank is after something else And I think it's almost like a Fellaini, like a big box crusher who can hold themselves.

20:40And this goes back to kind of my video. The number 10 for me is such like a sacred position in the game. It's kind of what the game was built. That's such a big part of the game, the number 10, the creative player, the player that everyone watches the game for. and to use your kind of supposedly most creative position in that way just depresses me really and I think Xavi he has his faults in this system I think he's not amazing in big open spaces although I think he's like he's getting better with those open spaces I think what what he's quite good at is buying fouls in those open spaces so he gets his body in the way he's obviously not got that powerful stride to kind of carry the ball 45 yards like what someone like Kulusevsky might be able to do but but he's he's doing better at kind of getting his body in between the ball and the marker so you know wins free kicks but then I think it's more about getting players in close proximity to Xavi that he can play with and rotate with and and and kind of show how high his technical and tactical IQ is in terms of opening teams up the thing is if you if you feed a player like that you know once or twice a game he's gonna he's quite a high risk player so he's gonna try things and probably they won't come off every time but but you need volume in terms of how many times you're supplying him because he's trying the spectacular thing and those things don't come off every single time but when they do they open a team up if you're only giving him one or two times to do that then more often than not it's not going to work and you're going to be frustrated by him it's the same with you know bruno fernandez at united and a different type of player but he's a high risk player but how many times does he get the ball and try stuff and try stuff try stuff try stuff and then once a game he'll open teams up and everyone be like what a pass you know i mean and i think that's similar similar to xavi in that sense so it to me it just feels like why did we buy him for this for this manager because it's like it's clearly everything that frank doesn't want in the team um which is very frustrating i think if your business runs on

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24:13Jack:This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. how would like that because obviously when he's gone away to psg he's almost i guess acted as if it's a bit of a free hit so as i don't know being more experimental or whatever we saw the kind of the midfield trio of gray bergval and sar start um how did you feel about that and how would you because i i really like that i thought that was one of the most kind of expansive displays of football spurs have ever put on under him i mean look at that i think it was the first goal wasn't it which was I think it was product of pretty much all of those players um at one point or another coming together in in brilliant fashion to score one of the best goals we have done in months probably um as a team anyway how how would you sort of go about incorporating Simmons into that who would you want to use out of those because again I will say reflecting on the Newcastle game and just at the season in general I look at Ben Tanker and I just see a player who great he was great once upon a time and I know we have to be understanding of the fact he's had two knee injuries but the fact of the matter is where we are right now is he is a player that's had two knee injuries and just doesn't to me he does not look fit for purpose anymore in the Premier League so I can't understand why an Archie Gray for example just quite simply isn't getting more minutes in that type of position yeah it's it's crazy because I think the midfield is really really lacking um in terms of and i've been massive on this i think players that can take the ball in the half turn from the back four and and break lines or or basically just get us playing really it's quite a simple concept of just players that can can connect midfield for connect the defense to the midfield with the ball um i don't think any of them are perfect i think they all have their faults I think to be honest they're all pretty similar level the the difference in terms of all at everything put together like strength and weaknesses I think to be honest Saar Bergvau, Gray, Polinho, Benton Kaur probably all around the same level this that's truly what I think and so the difference is Benton Bergvau and Archie Gray are what 19 and 20 like that that is something to build on so I don't quite understand why he's so big on Benton Korn Polina where they're clearly not bringing much upside at all in my eyes so it's like what you might lose with bringing in a Bergvau or an Archie Gray you gain somewhere else and this is my this is my kind of overall thinking with Frank is he just wants to be very pragmatic and he's scared of the opposition more than he's excited by his own team and so it's almost like Like he's like, it's like damage limitation.

27:26And it's like, how can we just minimize their chances? Like, let's just like hope that they don't get that many chances. We put, you know, Bentoncourt and Pelinha in there. That's solid. The thing is, we're conceding goals with or without those players. So I don't get the upside there. And then Bentoncourt for me, like, he's a bit of an all-rounder in terms of his attributes. I think recently his decision-making has been just, to be honest, for over a year, his decision-making has been so poor. But technically, he's actually a good footballer, but I think his IQ is just all over the place, both in and out of possession.

28:07Pelinho, I mean, don't even get me started on him.

28:10Jack:To be fair, you went early doors with this. You put your head above the parapet. And, you know, I was sort of thinking about you. I was thinking about, say, like Nathan as well, who is very similar. Because I was always like, I was never like, no, no, no, they're talking nonsense. But in my heart of hearts, I was like, I still think he's maybe a net good at the moment. But slowly but surely, there is a part of me that's like, he does, I think he does still offer quite a bit to us in a defensive capacity. I think the way Thomas Frank relies on him, though, is probably not very conducive towards us playing better football.

28:47Jack:And I guess that sort of leads us back to the point that you were making early doors. But I do see a lot of people now being, I said it on my stream the other day, sort of tail tucked between their legs a bit like maybe Polini actually isn't it, you know? I think I've especially doubled down on it because I went early on it. so I think I am probably overplaying it a little bit. If you're going to be a better big grizzly mate. I don't think he's useless. I think there's a valuable role in a squad for a player like that but in a squad I think you can use players like that to close games pretty well.

29:21I would never ever start him at home against Fulham. I just think that's crazy to want to start him in a game like that as a manager of Tottenham. Pelinho, like, the thing is as well, is like, cool, you can win as many tackles as you want. But what is that actually getting? What is that doing for us? Like, on a bigger level, you know, you can, you know, he's ranked, I think he still ranks super high on tackles one or whatever. But it's not leading to, like, the downside you lose with his stiffness on the ball. And also, not just on the ball, he doesn't even show for the ball. he's scared to take it under pressure situations and that's not his fault because I just don't think he has those capabilities he's not born with the natural attributes to be able to take the ball in the half turn I don't think he's a coward for not showing for the ball I think he's just not capable of it so my thing is like cool he wins all these tackles but with Tottenham we shouldn't be so worried about what we do off the ball There needs to be more responsibility put on us on the ball than off the ball, especially in these home games against teams that are whatever you want to say.

30:41If you think our players are not good, you think our players are good. Just bear in mind, our team is probably worth five, six, seven times some of these teams are playing. And that's normally a good reflection of the quality of a player overall. I think it's crazy to want to have him starting in the midfield like in those games I just I just I really just don't I don't get it I don't think I'll ever get it just not having it I just I just can't I can't can't see it I don't I just don't get I also think he even off the ball he moves he moves quite slowly like he can't I think Arsenal was a great example he can't get around the pitch so great when you're in this close space and you're trying to really restrict space and you're in like this compact block great he's going to win a lot of tackles when there's big spaces he has to cover like Arsenal when he was in that midfield too and they were getting pulled all over the place he couldn't get across the pitch that well because he's not he's not an insane athlete so I think in that game I was thinking Saar would have been much more suited to that game because of that amount of space that had to be covered But Pelinia is good when you're really compact and, you know, you need to constantly kind of engage and win those tackles.

31:53But in Arsenal, they were just manipulating the space and just switching it to the other side. And then there was a massive gap and then Bentancourt and him had to get across and it just all looked all wrong. So, yeah, I think objectively, like he is an unbelievably talented player at winning the ball. I think like there's no doubt about that. I think that attribute on its own is so well suited to certain teams. They're not the top teams. I don't think any top team can afford to have a player like that. What were you saying, Burnley, that type of thing? I think he can go higher than that. I think he can go, you know, Fulham.

32:27I mean, he was like Fulham. He's one of Fulham's best ever players, wasn't he? Yeah. So, yeah, I think he has his, for sure, he's a good footballer in that sense, but he's not fit for a top team. and I think the Bayern stint probably should have been a warning sign for any team.

32:45Jack:This is it, isn't it? There has always been that, again, that elephant in the room, hasn't there, where we've all sort of been like, why didn't he play at Bayern again? Well, let's not focus on that. And it was pretty soon after they signed it, because it was a fairly big money transfer, wasn't it? I think 40, 50 mil or something like that. and a big player from the Premier League. I think Arsenal, maybe City had shown some interest for a while. Bayern got in there and got him and I think we were all sort of lamenting like, oh yeah, that could have been quite a good player for Spurs that. So I do understand why there was quite a bit of excitement when we did bring him in.

33:23Jack:I felt it. And I still don't, you know, I haven't entirely written him off or written off his sort of value to us. I would definitely say I've called on the sense of sign him. January get him in make it permanent give him whatever I think it's 29 mil I think we'd have to pay isn't it similar yeah similar figure to that there is a part of me now that's maybe like maybe we just need to take a step back and and kind of focus on what it is that we what we want to achieve as a club what our manager whoever that is going to be wants to achieve and how they want to play um because there have been some we've had some questions like it's it's Q &A today it's Thursday so we have had some questions in um and they will be around managers that's why I'm kind of not diving into yet the is he going or is he not stuff with Thomas Frank um I guess I would just be interested in your sort of take on really just just how you feel like how much how much longer would you want the club to to give Frank you know do you do you sort of do you see people's point that maybe we do just need to give him the season maybe he just needs to have the season unless things start to go catastrophically because if if that away form drops right now our home form is relegation and and i don't mean that hyperbolically like it genuinely is it's relegation form our home form um and if our away form drops off as well and we start to get into serious trouble then obviously the quickest way to to arrest that is to get rid of the manager and have somebody that can stabilise things.

35:00Jack:I should. Yeah.

35:05But how do you feel?

35:07Jack:What do you want to see from Brentford? Ironically enough, we've got Brentford this weekend, you know? Yeah. I think, yes, it's really difficult. I think, like you said, if things were to go catastrophically wrong, I would argue they are going catastrophically wrong right now. I think we are I think we've got the lowest pretty sure I saw this right we've got the lowest XG at home of any team in the league like that is that is seriously I mean it doesn't surprise me but that is horrific things have never been worse like I just as well as a match going fan as well I've never hated games as much as I hate in this season and you know I think I think if he is to leave it will be the fans turning in the stadium, you know, the booing.

35:57The stadium is toxic right now. It's really, really toxic. In terms of like a more just objective decision-making, I think all the candidates that I am looking at, none of them are going to be available mid-season. I wouldn't expect anyway. I think my issue is with keeping him is a couple of things I think the first thing is transfer window right if if we stop building our transfers now like you said if we make the Pelina signing permanent because of Thomas Frank I think that would be a huge mistake if we buy more kind of athletic heavy players and and we fail to kind of address how bad our team is technically in in comparison to where we should be i think that would be a massive mistake so i think giving him you know one or two transfer windows more i think could set us back a couple of years that's what maybe not a couple of years but you know i mean a couple of transfer windows to rectify um the other thing is just the development and the mood of a lot of our talented players like I think there's some really good young players in there who will start to get a bit twitchy and a bit like, what is this club?