Is VAR Ruining Football? | Maddison Returns & Newcastle vs West Ham (Q&A)

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1:20Jack:Short to Madison. Oh, that's a challenge from Metta. Well, well, well. He certainly catches Madison. Does he get a touch on the ball though? He might get the slightest there, which could save him. No penalty given. Hello everyone, welcome back to Rule the Rouge podcast. Gavin, look, mate, it seems that every single week it's like, we're going to turn the corner into the good times again. We're sort of half in the good times, half in the bad times still, aren't we mate? yeah you're you're right it's um it's tricky like like you said I don't think that we're completely in we're certainly not in the the bad times um that we have been over the last few weeks but I actually feel a little bit calm at the moment in a sense that I I feel like I'm trying to be really philosophical and I'm trying to I'm trying to project a sense of um kind of I guess serenity even if that isn't exactly how I how I'm feeling and I read I read a quote actually in a memoir I was reading recently a harrowing memoir about alcoholism but um this particular this particular quote said if you fear your stresses stress your fears and that's kind of stuck with me I feel that if I if I fear about what you know may may happen in the future um it almost becomes a bit all-encompassing and try and just to to sit with a more like measured approach to the next couple of games because i think that they are going to be anxiety inducing enough as they are it's a bit like my uh what do i call it like what's my wife's grandma is she my grandmother-in-law let's yeah let's say that my grandmother-in-law her old saying is uh always we can cross that bridge when we come to it but we don't have to build it first so yeah yeah it's this is yeah There's wisdom, isn't there, in that generation.

3:20Jack:There's a wisdom that we haven't earned, but we can pick up from grandmother-in-laws and memoirs on alcoholism. Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, obviously Spurs in real life currently provided me with, you'd have thought, all of the negative vibes I need, but apparently not on McLuhan for punishment. And I'm happy to also explore harrowing memoirs at the same time. Dave Mackay, he was obviously a big Tottenham man. And he was a big hearts man. Can we, if we are looking for a bit of joy in football, can we sort of claim a bit of hearts, do you think, in that way? I've been enjoying the hearts song. Have you heard that ringing around?

4:02Jack:No, I haven't. Have you not seen it? Colin Chisholm, I think he's called. And he's been leading. It's kind of like a naff old football song where he goes like, H-E-A, R-T-S, if you can spell it, then here's what it says. it's hard you get the picture yeah yeah it's brilliant it's really really good you know i was sort of getting into that that storyline of like somebody outside of like the old firm is going to win the spl for the first time since since literal alex ferguson did in the 80s right i mean number one like how do how do either of those two fan bases in the old firm actually really care anymore is one thing but still you're sort of riding this crest you're riding this wave you're thinking that's exciting that's an exciting sporting story people like that if you're into sport you like those type of stories this is and there's it's clearly historic if they do it you know tony bloom's gone in there he's only got a minor stake in them but still he's gone in there and his system is working and they're on the verge of of greatness right and then var comes along again VAR comes along again, bursts the bubble.

5:12Jack:Now they've got to go to Celtic on the final day of the season. Whatever, let's not doubt them. But still, it's a big ask. It's a big ask. Tying this to Spurs, James Madison has also put out an Instagram post talking about the foul that was committed on him in the box in the dying stages of our game against... I forget who we were playing. leeds leeds united and yeah you know he questions essentially a referee's autonomy are referees too scared to make decisions because var's there um i just basically mate i want to rant about var because i we've all sort of tiptoed around this right and we've moaned we have moaned about it and we've kind of accepted it in part i think before it came in people knew it wasn't going to be that popular but we kind of accepted it but i really am arriving at a place and i think i arrived there subconsciously quite some time ago that it's not that var is ruining football it has it has actually ruined it it's yeah it's it's actually destroyed the game on a on a certain level because all i hear now is pretty much everybody who i know who loves football regardless of who they support maybe not arsenal fans right now but still for the most part most people are all like i just don't enjoy football that much anymore and when you really delve into it nine times out of ten it's it's var yeah that's that's true you um you really deron brown me then by the way when you said you forgot who we were playing of the night suddenly the name went out of my head as well it's like you played some sort of mind trick on me um yeah i mean the uh the celtic penalty that wasn't a penalty last night was an absolute nonsense and i don't really i don't really know how anyone can look at that and suggest that the ar is doing a particularly good job for the game in any capacity um i also really get annoyed by this sort of snootiness on more maybe commercial podcasts or amongst more commercial commentators on the sport who sort of sneer at the suggestion that anybody might in some way be um you know or might be create might be putting forward a biased decision or they might be um you know trying to tailor things to fit a particular agenda because we all know Sorry, go ahead.

7:45No, no, I was just agreeing. I mean, I just feel like we all know that these degrees of unconscious bias exist. So even if there's not a specific agenda that people are trying to work towards, human beings are influenced by their environment. They're influenced by the media. They're influenced by high pressure as well. And I think that all of these things are having an impact. So I think it's incredibly visible. And that isn't getting tinfoil hat about it. That's actually being logical. So I think just to kind of dismiss any suggestion that there might be some kind of external factor involved in these kinds of decisions is totally ignorant, I think, to the basic human condition, really.

8:25Jack:So it is like a Q &A day, and I might as well ask some of the questions that people, relevant to this conversation right now, as opposed to doing it at the end and end up repeating ourselves. Ben Hayes 17 says, with regards to VAR and the Madison incident, the phrase, if given, it wouldn't be overturned, but if not given, VAR wouldn't overrule it. What does that actually mean? Is it just an excuse for mistakes? Because surely that's saying end of the day, it's a foul, if you get what I mean. That is an excellent question, isn't it? I think there's an element of that. I watched one of those RefCam videos from our game against Aston Villa earlier today.

9:09And then I ended up going down a bit of a rabbit hole and watching a couple of others. And I feel like one of the problems that isn't really picked up is that refereeing as a whole thing has been over-engineered now. They're constantly talking about the game. They're constantly talking into the headset. And they have these little anacronyms that they say, like when a player might be through on goal, that helps them, I think, make a decision or maybe helps the VAR make a decision. and I just think let's go back to basics and let's just focus on what's happening in front of you. Don't worry about any of the rest of it and communicating with the VAR because they have video replays.

9:46They can go over things time and time again. It feels like there's just too much going on, too much communication and when the game is played at this sort of a pace as well, they almost, I think, struggle to really see what's going on in front of their own eyes because they're focused on everything else at the same time And so when these kinds of incidents happen, I do tend to agree in response to that question. I think that it is definitely an excuse. It feels like you're almost in a bit of a Kafkaesque nightmare because you're almost damned if you do and damned if you don't. And it means that every decision is defensible.

10:19So I'm, yeah, in summary, happy to rant along with you on this topic because I think it is becoming such a broad issue impacting everybody up and down the pyramid, really.

10:32Jack:I think on its most fundamental, I think on the most basic level that I can break it down to is that the joy of football is goals. You know, it's goals. And we're probably on some level addicted to whatever that explosion of dopamine is when a goal hits. I just feel like we're, I don't know, we're taking like, it's kind of, to use a sort of crude analogy, it's like we've been taking heroin for the past for the rest of our lives and now we're on methadone you know it's kind of like this version this sort of watered down version that we get now just isn't it just doesn't hold it because i think i think one of the things and and this is something i like i've heard sort of flav say quite a bit on the fighting cock down the years is that football actually really for large parts of it is quite a boring game like it's it's like like sometimes and i i know exactly what it means is like when you're not watching spurs right and you're watching like a game as a neutral and if it's not like psg against by munich of a few weeks ago it's very very easy to start looking at your phone or to start doing something else and just have it on in the background because yeah more often than not it's whether that's whether that's a product of what football is now if that's you know again if this is a wider discussion about like the tactical approach of teams nowadays because of the yeah the template of success that has been set down by managers like Pep Guardiola for example if we're talking about things being over-engineered right perhaps as an over-engineered approach to football that isn't quite as exciting as it once was but look I guess that's another variable to consider but I just think on that basic level you're watching it because you're waiting for the hit aren't you you're waiting for the hit of a goal and now when you're sat there thinking and you you can't you can't lie to yourself I I mean I certainly can't I can't sit there and act like I am as excited about goals as I used to be because always in the back of my head is the feeling that even if it's a screamer like like tells there's a part of me thinking is there going to be some obscure brush of a hand or has somebody's toe gone offside in some part of the football exactly match or something like it's it's it's insane it's insane like for a game that is as essentially a structured form of chaos right as most sports are i think you could say probably yeah the amount of control that the governing bodies want to exert over that is just it's it's not only counterproductive it's it's borderline insane i think yeah it is um and you're right because then even even screamers now from outside the box are sometimes subjects to was this player obstructing the goalkeeper's vision and was he slightly offside and so even that sometimes allows you to feel a little bit flat like i don't know if it's almost a wider case study for trying to impart objective technology within such a emotive human objective environment because it doesn't really make even as i say that sentence it doesn't make any sense i don't really know actually you know what it just made me think of do you know the um musician bonnie prince billy i don't i don't know so he's like an american sort of folk americana sort of artist but um i listened to him talking recently about um well widely about technology he was he was asked about why he stopped certain albums being posted on spotify and itunes and he went on this really long elegant monologue that i'm probably about to butcher where he effectively says that you know when somebody would discover a record in the past maybe a disc jockey had selected that really carefully and then maybe you had to stay waiting to listen to that record again on the radio and then maybe you would go and find it and you would think about why that really appealed to you and you know why in that instance everything you know in that instance everything you're doing is essentially like a human connection there is a relevance to this i promise it's going to come back to what we were talking about um and really what he then came down to fundamentally was that we're so influenced now by superficial algorithms to dictate our kind of choices and i think that we're so dictated by those kinds of algorithms in day-to-day life and it sanitizes everything and it feels to me like VAR is really like a sanitized version of what was a really passionate emotive as you said chaotic sport as well so I think this this is a like a wider problem that pervades football now and it feels like to me this is trying to reach some kind of impossible objective truth or fundamental truth and it really allows you know an impossible um relationship i think for for fans to to kind of continue to get on board with um with with the sport if that makes that garbled sort of explanation makes any kind of sense no it it does because it's technology should when we when you use something like tennis as an example we don't even need to use tennis goal line technology and football yeah goal line technology perfect it works fine there's little margin for error it's quick there's little if not any margin for error I think there's the one instance isn't it was it Sheffield United where the goal line technology didn't go off did it?

15:59Jack:Yeah my main Sheffield United fan always reminds me of this the one time it failed yeah. Yeah so you know there's there's little margin for error with something like goal line technology. See also really as much as we detest them automated offsides if there's automated offsides like they use in the Champions League we don't use them yet in the Premier League if a if I understand it correctly, is a slightly different system. But if you've got an automated offside, even if it's a tow or whatever, if it's done instantly and it's chosen by a computer, if it's AI or whatever it is that decides that as opposed to the margin for human error, once again, fine.

16:36Jack:If it's over and done with quickly, whatever, you know, I get it. I know that like the line thing does irritate people with offsides. And I do find it kind of ridiculous. but if technology's there that you know somebody an offside begins somewhere no matter how kind of close it is to the person or whatever so i get that and as i've sort of said on here before i would understand because there were a few there were a few instances down the years of say the referee say the phase of play has moved up the field the referee is watching the the play from say team a around team b's box and that's up there meanwhile behind referee from the last phase of pay from the last flight i don't know why i'm over complicating this two players from the opposing teams could be behind the referee and one smacks the other one around the face nobody's seen it all the crowd starts shouting at the referee he's looking around linesman's sometimes not even seen it if they did they would flag and say yeah he's done him in over there but sometimes even they would miss it they are fine if it says that yeah number 10 has slaps number sort of seven around the face why you haven't used it in that sort of instance but this almost every single passage of play every single instance of anything that happens on the football pitch being constantly scrutinized is just it's just like how i just don't understand how we've gotten to this point I don't understand how quickly it has come to this place because it's almost like it's, I don't know, it's sort of catching up with us in real time.

18:18Jack:And I don't know if there's any, there must be some kind of like psychological explanation for what it is that I'm trying to convey. But I feel that when something just happens and it happens quickly in real time, even though you are aware that it's happening, you're not fully processing the effect it has on you, even if you are looking at it and talking about it. So, you know, if there was a literal rhinoceros in my room right now, I'd be like, bloody hell, there's a rhino in my room. Like, that's a bit weird. How's that happened? Well, I guess I'll just have to sort of deal with that. And it's only like, as you're kind of in that situation, then you are suddenly like, oh, God, it's shitting everywhere.

19:03Jack:Oh, God, it's really aggressive. How am I going to get it out the door? Do you know what I mean? Do you get what I'm saying? All the further considerations catch up with you as you are living with the rhino in your metaphorical room at that point. Oh, God, it's ripping me apart. Yeah, exactly. It's stamping on my family. It's an excellent comparison. um you're very kind the um yeah i i can i completely agree that but the kind of contrasting madison and tell incidents are actually quite interesting in a way and and maddening um the tell one i know you've spoken about this i'm i'm sort of inclined to agree because if you're an attacking player and you just throw yourself head first at the feet of a defender is that dangerous play i don't really i don't really know i know that his body's in a sort of unnatural position but you do see players try to overhead kick the ball away sometimes in the box and okay it was a stupid decision but the referee in real time just just froze which is another problem with var which is what and was saying all the time wasn't it about the games being re-refereed and i think he had a really good point with that and then similarly the referee obviously didn't give the Madison penalty.

20:22And what I find really interesting about that is that in real time, there is no way he saw that touch on the ball. There's no way he saw a fingernail's width of a toe touching the end of that ball. So why didn't he give it in real time? I don't really understand what he was then looking for. It seems to me mental because it looks clear as day a stonewall penalty from his perspective at that time as well. And then this kind of almost mental gymnastics of saying that, you know, he got something on the ball and so it wasn't a penalty. I just, it's got me to a point where I don't really understand what the rules are anymore.

21:05I guess that's because every single decision is overanalyzed and it has to be overanalyzed because that's the nature of this technology. But it does leave you in this really strange place. And And, you know, when they talk about, again, when we're talking about trying to reach an objective place with this, we also know different countries have different refereeing cultures. Different referees have almost their own styles and ways of refereeing games. And that's something that's been taken for granted. And it's been something that's been seen as a clear truism for so many years. So it feels like a total hypocrisy, really, always from those that are in charge of refereeing in the game because they find ways of always justifying their decisions, whereas at the same time, there are always obvious rebuttals given the length of time that we've watched football and the realities of the game as well.

22:01Jack:Now at McDonald's, a McDouble is 250, so you can get your gym gains on or just get lunch. For only$2.50. Get more value on the under$3 menu. Limited time only. Prices and participation may vary. Prices may be higher for delivery. Ba-da-ba-ba-ba. Pool days call for cookouts and lots of laundry. This Memorial Day at Lowe's. Save$80 on a Char-Broil Performance Series 4-Burner Gas Grill. Now just$199. Plus, get up to 45 % off select major appliances to keep dishes, clothes, and food fresh. having fun in the sun is easy with us in your corner our best lineup is here at lowes valid through 527 while supplies last selection varies by location see associate or lowes.com for details it's ridiculous i mean as far as i was aware look i know and this is kind of what var has reduced the conversation to is that the the defender the leads defender who apparently got like the slightest toe the slightest touch on that ball and this is what madison himself contests Even if he has gotten the slightest toe on that, gotten a touch on it, it doesn't mean that he hasn't still completely wiped James Madison out.

23:11Jack:Yeah. Within that same... VAR or not, the rule has always been, yeah, get the ball first, but also you have to get the ball in a controlled fashion. You know, you can't just wipe a player out and say, oh, it's fine because I touched the ball the slightest amount. The other point that has been raised, actually, after the fact from this... Apologies for getting hit as somebody said to me on Twitter, but... the ball didn't even go out of play like so matt so madison has been brought down the ball hasn't gone out of play at this point either which makes it even more damning um it i don't know that's such a good point it's just it's it's ridiculous though because we have this tool where you can slow it down frame by frame and say there you go look he got the ball but that's that's not just use common sense if we are if if if decisions are not going to be automated if there is still a human behind this machine that human has to use common sense they have to they a prime so a prime example a prime example of this is the i think it was the foul on rea from the west ham player right to rule out west ham's goal but then use common sense and say well there's actually three different fouls being committed by Arsenal players on West Ham players in the box.

24:29Jack:So let's just call it even and give them the goal or give West Ham a penalty. We don't give them a goal, but they get a penalty out the back of it. You know, that's common sense. You can't just use VAR to stop that one bit. Like you can't just say, well, no, okay, we're ruling the goal out, but we're going to ignore all this other stuff. It just, but that is the common sense. That's the people behind it. Yeah. I mean, to your point, because you have kind of touched on this already about bias and everything. Andy Perry asks, do you think the Premier League are using VAR as a tool to create drama and shape narrative for their product?

25:07Jack:So it's easier to sell to emerging markets as they are fearing the price saturation and losing investment from abroad. They want new winners and new relegated teams. um you know when i've been slightly more wobble-headed after the game the other day this is the type of stuff i can buy into this idea of it being a bit more wwe a bit more scripted when you say on a thursday afternoon you know it feels it feels less like something i want to indulge i'm not i'm not saying this of andy i'm saying in myself less of something i want to indulge but to to your point get like Gavin like the sense that like corruption corruption has existed all throughout history for us to just say no no there's no chance it can't be that don't be so silly when you've actually got Richard Scudamore on tape saying they have a strategy they have a strategy to ensure that different teams will win the Premier League and keep it exciting that's a mad comment from him in any context isn't it I just don't know what he was thinking really um yeah one other quick thing actually on that so i'm waving a bookmark at you um one other quick thing that i wanted to also mention was the fact that james madison literally got elbowed in the face and forced off the pitch by amper do and it wasn't even looked at towards the end of that game um on the um the yeah on that question i like similarly i don't necessarily really want to always indulge in that kind of conspiratorial talk but as you say corruption always exists at the highest levels of any institution i don't think i genuinely believe that things are necessarily being engineered but i do i do think that there is like i said earlier an unconscious level of bias and do you remember a few years ago when liverpool had i think was it two players sent off in that game against us and we had an offside goal as well, which fair enough, you know, was for them a bit of a nightmare.

27:11But after that, there was definitely some kind of conscious effort, I think, to sort of even things up a little bit. You know, referees were aware of that and managers like Klopp and Ferguson in the past would always be quick to remind people. And referees were terrified of big figures like Ferguson for years and always ended up, you know, giving Man United the run of the green. We're often at the end of that as well. And that happened time and time again at Old Trafford for the best part of two decades. You know, everybody was aware of that fact. And it was basically through an intimidation campaign.

27:48And then in the end, it almost became, he almost became a bit of a parody of himself, I think, Ferguson, in that sense. I'm kind of less keen to suggest that there's a genuine engineering and more keen to suggest that all of the outside voices have an inevitable impact on some of the decisions that are made when referees are hearing and seeing all over social media a real desperate desire for Spurs to go down I've got no doubt that sometimes that's in the back of certain minds Perhaps the same goes for Arsenal winning the league as well and wanting a new winner. I don't know.

28:27Jack:Let's talk about James Madison briefly. It was very nice to have him back, wasn't it? Yeah, excellent. And he actually immediately slotted in really nicely, I thought. He immediately started knocking the ball about brilliantly. I forgot that he does that thing where he comes really deep, receives like a three-yard pass from either a defender or a defensive midfielder. and then immediately turns, shifts his body weight, maybe feigns a pass. He's just a different level of footballer, I think, in this current squad. And fair play to him because it's not very often, I think, is it, that players manage to come back from such a serious injury over the course of a season.

29:09Jack:I'm not sure who it was. I think it might have been Wendy and the lads on the extra inch that made this point. That essentially, most teams in the Premier League are all of a comparable quality now. The squads are all pretty much interchangeable in terms of quality. Just, yeah, the top teams will have those star, star players that you can build in on top. And James Madison does feel like the closest thing we have to that, doesn't he? It's funny, he almost looks bigger on the pitch, if that makes sense. When you saw him come on, it's like he was highlighted or something. I don't know because it's just something about the sharpness of his movement and the way in which he thinks and moves of the ball that you think, God, I've missed this.

29:56Jack:God, I've missed Sonny. God, I've missed Kane. I've even missed Kulisevsky. You know, like players of that sort of quality. Ericsson, Dele in his pomp, you know, Busser Dembele. I've missed those players that just have that thing about them that's a bit special, where you don't feel that you're like clutching to straws of it. This isn't to say that James Madison isn't frustrating at times. I've aired those in the bars about his consistency and everything. But I don't think anybody can ever take away from the fact that on his day, he is an unbelievable talent. You know, it's one that you would hope now, Now that he's kind of broken through two games left, you've got to hope that he's fit enough to start against Chelsea, don't you?

30:42Jack:Because, you know, I think we're going to need everything we can get in that one, aren't we? We are. I mean, are they going to risk it? What's another season out with a crucial ligament injury, I guess, in comparison to relegation? Like our medical team wouldn't put it past them. They probably wanted him to start in the game against Leeds. after they got Javi Simons to do like explosive sprints, having just completely fucked his cruciate ligament on the pitch, which was probably another low point in a season of lows. I think he's our best player, Madison. I think that you're right about him being highlighted.

31:20It's a bit like when you press the wrong button on FIFA. So all of the players are suddenly like glowing with these rings around them. he's obviously spent some time growing his hair and seeing to that in the meantime which I'm not against either it looked it looked wonderful I've got to say actually it did yeah yeah it did he's definitely been using the tresemme or something probably far more expensive than that and I've no doubt if if he'd even been fit for half this season I feel like we wouldn't be in this predicament just some of the some of the qualities that he has are so emphasized because they're so

31:58Jack:lacking in much the rest of the team I think do you think no I don't want to I was going to say do you think he stays if we go but I don't I don't want to talk about all that sort of thing today I just want to enjoy the fact that he's back and hopefully he can do something for us against against Chelsea a Chelsea team that has ghosted for months you know there's there's so many parallels to the to the Leicester season with them really them ghosting for a season Hazard ghosting for a season see Cole Palmer and there's just that horrible Parmy that can see him doing his ice cold celebration he's back in the conversation again to be like you know starting for England at the World Cup and all that type of thing because he's shown in the big moment he can turn up and he's condemned Tottenham Hotspur to this and I don't let's just wait and see let's wait and see what happens um because before that there is a massive massive massive game uh this sunday isn't it yeah newcastle versus west ham on sunday how how big is this mate like how how are you feeling about spurs's fixtures west ham's fixtures do you have a prediction on what they might get and what we will probably need i think like to quote t.s elliot sometimes reality is too much to bear isn't it when it comes to this fixture um i'm i'm i'm i'm reluctant to do any predictions because i think for so much of this little run we've all been used to competing at the the top end of the table so i feel like our kind of reference points are so out of out of kilter because we almost when trying to do predictions expect teams to pick up three points here three points there whereas actually there's every chance neither us or west have pick up any more points this season and we just we just stay up um you know two points clear of them with 37 points or however many points we've got um newcastle have just turned a bit of a corner but i mean west ham were i thought pretty good against arsenal for large parts of that game you know could easily have have snatched an equalizerst james's park last home game of the season though i think we're lucky in a sense that a lot of the Newcastle fans are fairly discontented aren't they by the season that they've had I hope that Eddie Howe and those players will be really keen to put on a bit of a show and and show them you know this this means something I don't think they're going to roll over I would 100 % take a draw if West Ham beat Newcastle away I would really fear for us going to Stamford Bridge and suddenly being behind by a point or two before the final game of the season because that's not anything that I'll be prepared to sit through, I don't think.

34:48Jack:My feeling is that West Ham are going to get four points out of their last two games. I'm saying that, Leeds have got their best away form in the country at the moment right now. It's whether or not they'll be on the beach. It's whether or not, you know, a consideration is do they want West Ham or Tottenham in the Premier League next season. You know, that's... It's not even a cynical way of looking at it. I think it's quite a realistic way of looking at things, isn't it? But again, does that permeate to the players? Does that permeate to the players that just want to win? You know, that just want to win on the...

35:22Jack:I don't know. I mean, do you remember that video that came out of all the Fulham players celebrating Arsenal goals on the coach and stuff? Yeah, yeah. I just think that sometimes we actually treat these players a bit too much like robots and assume that they are going to be these, you know, they are ultra-competitive guys, but they are human beings with feelings. And I think there's a huge amount of anti-spur sentiment everywhere. But Deservey did say, didn't he, that, you know, I'm sure that Leeds will put up just as much of a fight on the last day of the season. So I enjoyed that little bit of mind gaming that he was trying to do.

36:00Jack:Yeah. Why are we in this? I mean, we know why we're in this position. Chronic mismanagement. And I don't want to say this, but also seldom, seldom is, you know, a league table is generally a great indicator as to how good or not you are as a team. For us to be in this sort of position two years on the trot does suggest that we're not very good. And we're not being run very well. And I don't want to say if we go down, we deserve it. but maybe we do. And that's something that is always on the fans to have to reconcile. You know, that's always on the fans to have to bear the brunt of all the crap.

36:43Jack:You know, I get it. Like the owners will probably be looking at, you know, a few hundred mil swiped off the valuation of the club, but that's not real money anyway. It doesn't really, doesn't actually exist. You know, these are all just figures up in the air. At the end of the day, they'll have their asking price and somebody will have to pay it.

37:03Jack:I don't know. This is just an unpleasant position to have been in for as large a time as we have done this season. Yeah. And did you see Levy as well came out the other day and said, oh, he was getting an OBE, I think, wasn't he? Yeah. And he said, you know, I never saw this happening in a million years. It's like, well, you wouldn't, would you? But also I think that I'm quite annoyed I'm quite annoyed that he sort of distanced himself from this a bit. And I think that, you know, history needs to never forget that this very much had his fingerprints all over it. Yeah, 100%. 100%. Let's do some more questions.

37:44Jack:Matt Shanley says, is Newcastle versus West Ham the biggest game of our season? I think, honestly, I think it's the biggest game of my life. One of them. You know, I think it's up there with the Champions League final. I'm not going to lie. he says I can't shake the feeling that if they lose then we should stay up but if they win we might be done yeah I agree I agree completely yeah I think it's so impossible to predict this because all of us about Southam West Ham are so bad I'm not looking forward to it so even when I start thinking about it I start to feel nervous it might be one of those I have on the tv while I'm like cooking a roast or something and I can go in and out of while drinking a beer or something because it's going to be a very difficult game, I think, just to sit down and watch and just try to...

38:31Yeah, I think the kind of calm thing I'm trying to do is definitely going to fly out the window from the minute that whistle goes.

38:36Jack:I think this week, mate, it's essential to prep the other half. No plans with other people on Sunday afternoon, please. Please just let me sit and simmer over, you know, what could be. There'll be no chance of that. My parents are coming to stay, actually, so they're going to be leaving early Sunday morning. My dad is a Spurs fan as well. We're going to get back in time to watch that.

39:05Jack:Daddy Shimbonda says, do you think the whole, the Premier League wouldn't want Spurs to go down from West Ham fans is actually having an effect on the refs in the opposite way? For example, being even harsher on us because they don't want to appear by us. IMO, I think we're just shit regardless. yeah properly I can't believe even Sadiq Khan came out didn't he and say like yeah it's from all angles isn't it like just leave us alone it's mental yeah I mean I don't have any social media anymore but I remember somebody for ages posting a thread of like the Spurs stadium being used when disappointing news was being I can't remember who did that now it's Adam Nathan and Tom Foynes oh is that is that it yeah yeah like you said Every single time something was...

39:55Jack:There was even... I can't remember what one of the most bizarre ones was. It was just talking about the economy struggling at some point. And they used Pitcher of the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium because I think they were... Yeah, mad. I don't know what the link was, but there was probably something to do with fluctuating business costs or something. Track Logic, the other front page, says, why isn't the club doing more formal complaining about the standards of refereeing and var if we go down a large percentage of that is because of the unfair decisions against us i really feel this quite strongly as well um you seem to hear a lot of stories of arsenals liverpools so on and so writing these strongly worded letters of complaint or whatever it is to the governing bodies every time there's a decision that doesn't go their way maybe we do that but it doesn't feel like we communicate that um it feels like we're very much a just nod along okay you know fine all right well i guess we'll just get on with it then um type of entity because you feel like there needs to be a bit more fight don't you and desert desert he's shown that a bit and obviously madison's shown that but you want to feel that that's coming from the club don't you you want to feel that yeah they want to be this big club they've built this stadium there's certain things you've got to kind of act like it in that way as well don't you yeah definitely um even even west ham have kicked up a massive fuss haven't they um after the other day yeah you are right desert be does it but um it's interesting that you know vin i was meant to be a much more public facing figure until the minute things started going down the pan and he's been nowhere to be seen that initial couple of interviews um you know that one with levy and then again after levy gone sort of saying that you know everything's everything's going to be absolutely fine and that we've got a great plan in place you know and this is this has been in the in the works for a while and obviously that's gone that's gone really well and aged really well like like everything spurs do currently as an organization you feel like it's it's just not it's not enough you feel there's nobody there behind the scenes really taking things almost by the scruff of the neck and you know that may be total ignorance on my part that may be completely wide of the mark but it feels like to me there's been a lack of sort of fight and desire throughout the entire club for for years you know it feel it just feels like everything unless it was haggling over a transfer fee trying to win that battle we just seem sort of passive in these kinds of scenarios and maybe this is partly where the sort of you know passive culture has emanated from you know from the very top if we had fire brand owners like look at like marianakis and stuff you know ban gary neville didn't he from the from the city ground and everything yeah and i i actually quite like that sort of stuff to be honest um i think we should ban gary neville i know i'm not hidden that but the guys come out and said it'll be good for the premier league for spurs to go down he shouldn't be welcome back at the ground he shouldn't be no I agree I think I said this last time that you know almost as a club this is a good moment to start taking down names people on a band left right line up against a wall more like but you know you thought this was your run club era turns out it was more of a thinking about run club era the good news someone's marathon training is about to start sell your workout gear on Depop Just snap a few photos and we'll take care of the rest.