Looking Back on covering Spurs with The Athletic’s Dan Kilpatrick | From Pochettino to Thomas Frank

0:00Welcome back to Rule the Roost. Yes, it's one of those annoying ad read type things at the top of a podcast you're looking forward to listening to. Thanks for tuning in. Just a quick request before I start. If you want to help support the show this season, please leave me a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You can drop me a follow on Instagram at Ted Trunk or if you really fancy, head over to patreon.com slash RTR pod for extra episodes and access to the Discord community. All of these things really help the podcast to get discovered by more Spurs fans, and it keeps the show growing for the new campaign.

0:34Thanks for the support, and now, on with the show. Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast, so why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, style it, make it yours. because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list.

1:20There are also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use In Minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome? That's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web. like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it.

1:55Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up required, compatibility and availability varies 18+. What you're about to hear is the first of a two-part conversation with the athletic Stan Kilpatrick. In this half, we talk about his time covering Spurs, how the journalistic landscape has shifted over the past decade, and how life on the Spurs beat changed as the club grew into something of a super club. Dan also shares an anecdote about a chance encounter with Maurizio Pochettino and Jesus Perez in Russia before we dive into how the club actually operates, including whether Daniel Levy's involvement in seemingly every matter is as damaging as it appears from the outside.

2:35We also briefly touch on his time with Ange Postacoglu and his thoughts on Thomas Frank so far. Part 2 will be out a little later on where Dan answers your questions, but for now enjoy the pod.

2:54Hello everybody welcome back to Rule the Roost podcast and welcome back to the show Mr Dan Kilpatrick how are you doing mate? I'm very well mate how are you? Yeah good I've missed you I've missed you you know have you you missed us the the Tottenham the Tottenham plebeian masses well i like to think i'm still connected to the the proles of tottenham hotspur um so yeah to an extent i mean yeah i'm definitely missing covering the club day to day if that's what you're getting at which i assume it is um because i'm not doing that anymore but i'm still doing um view from the lane podcast with the athletic albeit not twice a week but um you know every couple of weeks and I'm still doing things like this so I still feel like I'm kind of covering the club in a sense and following the club and I'm a fan of Tottenham as I always have been but like I now I'm able to be like a real fan of Tottenham and not have to you know like when the Eze hijack happened and I'm sure that'll come up at some point like that was the first time where I was just kind of able to properly kind of seethe and be humiliated as a fan and be annoyed and not think, oh, I've got to do 800 words of reaction on this and find out how it happened and speak to people at the club about who Spurs are going to target next and make calls outside the club.

4:23But that was kind of a relief in a way. But also it's sort of horrible being just a fan, isn't it? You have to kind of weigh your heart on your sleeve and feel hurt. I've noticed you sort of said you do things like this. I do have a bone to pick with you. I thought I was going to get like a nice post-summer, pre-transfer window closing sort of exclusive pod with Dan Kilpatrick, Dan Kilpatrick returns. Now, I just heard you did bloody fighting cock yesterday or the lab, sorry. The lab, yeah, I do the lab quite regularly. I'm sorry. I should have let you know that I've double-booked this week. I didn't give you a sign or something.

5:06Yeah, I enjoy my little chats with Flav. um the odd couple as i think you've you've called us well it is a bit isn't it you know yeah no um you know we're one big spurs family aren't we oh yes of course of course we are then yeah it's because it's just it's funny to think isn't it because when we when we first met obviously i was like a jobbing video producer niche podcaster and you were the tottenham blogger who has since gone on to be Tottenham's correspondent for like a major US publisher at ESPN. You've then got on to be like the chief football correspondent for the Evening Standard, a paper read by millions.

5:46And now, you know, you're an editor for a major transatlantic publication. And you meet me here again as a jobbing video producer and niche podcaster, mate. So it's quite the journey we've been on. Well, I would never say no, or I'd always try and make time to do your podcast because you, as I've said this before on one of your pods, I think, but you're the reason that I got that job at ESPN because you recommended me. And I don't forget that and I won't forget that. I was just a kind of struggling Spurs blogger. I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I had a vague idea. I wanted to do journalism and kind of cover the club.

6:26I was doing a podcast with Tom Hayward, the Tottenham Way, the OG Tottenham Way back in the day. and then you recommended me for the Tottenham correspondent job at ESPN through one of your contacts. So that's kind of where it all began in earnest, really. I think you do me too much credit there, Dan. I think it's your talent that shone through. I simply was a facilitator of, you know. God, we're kind of wanking each other off here. We need to move on. See, I was going to lead to what has this journey been like, mate? We will get into spells and everything, but I do think it's interesting to, And lots of the questions will sort of center around this side.

7:05I hazard to go over things twice. But I do think there's definitely something in the fact that, you know, you were very close to sort of the levers of power, if you like. Especially, you know, around when I think about like... I'm not sure I was. But like the Pochettino era, for example. You know, you were pals with him, you know, El Jefe. again I'm not sure that's a that's I mean I'd love to say I was um I mean I think what I guess he liked that you had some Spanish I believe I the closest I got to being pals with Poch and this is one of my favorite stories from doing the job was I bumped into him literally bumped into him and Jesus Perez in a busy red square before Spurs played CSK in Moscow in the Champions league and he and Jesus in particular were very pally and kind of I spoke a little bit of Spanish to him told him about living in Argentina and he got his phone out and showed me a picture of the last time he'd come to Moscow and it was with Espanyol and they'd played there presumably in Europe or in a friendly or something and he got his phone out and showed me all these pictures of him which had obviously been looking at because they were kind of readily to hand on his phone of like him and even de la peña and and all his kind of espanol buddies the last time they're in moscow and it was kind of poch you know with a ridiculous um 90s hairdo um and that that was great but i mean that was you know one interaction in in kind of him being the club for five years and i would say a lot of the time as the media you were going to press conferences you know every two or three days but you nowadays you are really kept at arm's length um from the leavers of power as you put it and you know the protagonist at the club and that's really the way the club wants it you know they don't want you kind of being really close to to the manager or the chief executives or obviously the chairman um and I think you know that's different I mean I remember hearing stories from some of the the older generation who've covered Spurs for years and years and they said you know back at the old kind of um what was Spurs training ground called before Spurs Lodge, back at Spurs Lodge, kind of pre-Hotspur Way, you could just kind of wander in whenever you wanted.

9:29There was no sort of security on the gate. You could just kind of wander in and you could maybe grab Darren Anderton and do five minutes and that would be your back page the next day if you said something interesting. Whereas now, you know, it's like this is your area. You've got to stand in the mix zone. You've got to come to the press conference. This is the time you're going to get. And anything kind of outside that, which is closely controlled by the club, you know, would be frowned on by the club, frankly, if you were grabbing players in the car park, which I have seen over the years, or trying to call them up.

9:59Is this a Spurs thing though, Daniel, or is this the way football is coming up? No, it's a modern football thing. It's a modern football thing. Everything, as the game has grown commercially and as a business and in popularity, so the kind of net has tightened around players and obviously they've grown as kind of celebrities and icons and all the rest of it. And so we are just much more at arm's length. So I do think, to go back to your original point, it would be wrong to say that I, as a beat reporter who covered Spurs, was kind of close to the levers of power. But obviously, for nearly a decade, even when I was chief football writer with the standard, I was kind of covering other clubs and writing about other clubs.

10:44I was still going to Spurs more or less every two or three days. So, you know, that familiarity over the years does, you know, mean something. And, you know, you get a feel for people there and, you know, certainly what the managers are like. But there's a great book about Brian Clough called, I think it's called If You Promise You Won't Kiss Me. And I think it's by a guy called Duncan Hamilton. I hope I've got his name right. Anyway, I massively recommend it. And it's a real picture of like what beat reporting used to be like. And this guy literally used to be driven to every single away game by Clough and Taylor.

11:24He'd be in the back of the car and he would have literally notebooks full of stories he could have used. But there was a relationship there and he didn't want to betray that trust. But that's kind of a flavour of what it used to be like. Whereas now I've got one conversation from five years of Pochettino that I'm kind of endlessly banging on about. do you think that i mean the deck because you were covering you were in this space for roughly a decade right give or take yeah and i would say it was it's probably quite a uh quite a formative decade not just for you personally but i mean in the respect of

12:06the ushering in of a new type of reporting really the way social media has changed things did did you feel that impact on your work did you feel the landscape shifting as you because I would say probably when you did start although it wasn't quite the same as that as like this Duncan Hamilton's experience but you still had a sort of a footing at least in a more old school approach to reporting wouldn't you versus probably where it ended towards the end of your time yeah I think that's a really interesting point I mean actually I think I was probably like at the vanguard of that change I mean one of my good friends is Ben Pearce who a lot of Spurs fans will remember from back in the day particularly of their of like our generation who was one of the kind of original sort of club reporters in in the early days of Twitter and he used to go to kind of every single away game where no one else would and it would kind of be you know he'd be up in Burnley with one reporter from the Burnley local paper and then he would kind of clean up You know, Spurs would play there on a Saturday under Harry Redknapp.

13:13Ben would, you know, get five players in the mix zone and then, you know, use them Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday before the press conference. There wouldn't be nearly as many people at the press conference. And then he would do the same at a weekend game, you know, even if it was a home game, that there were much fewer reporters there. And then, you know, places like ESPN, obviously Latterley, The Athletic, Football London, you know, started, you know, seeing the, you know, the commercial value, I guess, in the clubs of Spurs size and, you know, sending someone every week. and so I was kind of you know part of that new wave and you know Ben I'm sorry won't mind me saying you know say you know it just wasn't quite the same there was a point where you know everyone was really kind of hanging on the quotes I got because I was the only one with those quotes and then suddenly you know you're sharing them with four or five other local reporters and you know the national media as well and it's just not nearly as impactful for you know for a beat reporter like him or a local paper like his.

14:21So, yeah, I do think the landscape changed. And then obviously, you mentioned social media and someone like Alistair, who I've got, I love Ali, I've got so much time for him, did just change the game in his own way as well, just by being so thorough, giving supporters every single detail, really, about what was happening in the club from kind of under 18 level upwards. um and you know doing the videos um you know and other creative ways of you know using social media that a lot of us weren't really using um so it had yeah it had kind of kind of changed a great deal um and in in a way that was you know for me personally that was I sort of looked at it and thought you know I actually don't like social media like I'm not on social media I don't have an Instagram like a personal Instagram I don't have a personal Facebook um I don't have TikTok so I kind of was doing it for work and actually that element of the job was was one of the things that eventually I got tired of and thought you know I don't want to be going on Twitter it's not really where I want to be um and I enjoy being an editor now that I don't have to do that didn't what you mean you didn't like opening up your phone every day and having a thousand people telling you that you were paid paid by Levy and you're the fucking clown mate yeah we'll get on to that one don't we no and it wasn't I'm not saying I didn't enjoy the job aspect of it I'm saying I'm not someone who enjoys social media generally so you know it felt it didn't feel like an extension of something I was doing in my free time it felt like a real part of the job that I had to do but yeah it did definitely like obviously Twitter you know we could do a whole podcast on Twitter being really toxic now and it is I'm not really on Twitter anymore um at all not even to to kind of browse um because it's just grim um but yeah that that changed as well over the years I think you know it was a bit like I think I met guys I met kind of in inverted commas but you know people like you and Tom who I mentioned I did the original Tottenham Way with lots of great people in kind of the early days of Spurs Twitter as it was, because it was a bit more of a community.

16:34And I'm not on it now, so I don't know, but I sort of sense that that element of it is kind of gone now and it's not really like that anymore. It's just so many people now. Just a vastly different proposition as a club. And I guess that's probably something that's worth touching on as well, Dan, because not only in terms of a journalistic landscape, but the club itself changed immeasurably in the time that you were reporting on them. How did that impact your day-to-day really? Did the processes change or were things much the same? Because we often, and we can link this into kind of a more contemporary context as well, in the respect that, you know, we sort of, one of the things that does the rounds at Spurs is this sense that we have all the trappings of a super club but we're still bottlenecked by the presence of Daniel Levy really who runs the club very much in the fashion that we saw as run in the early 2000s when we were signing the likes of Huddleston and Lennon and Dawson trying to make this young exciting core and what have you.

17:44Did the club change in essence in your dealings with it from your perspective. Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs. You know back to school is coming in fast. So why wait to find your new fave footwear? Step into a local Crocs store and step into your new look. Try it, style it, make it yours. Because the right pair doesn't just show up, it shows off. First day fits, handled. Walk out ready for whatever's next. Visit your nearest Croc store today.

18:46Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCar.com.

19:17Well, again, I started covering Spurs in 2015-16, so the Leicester season, and they'd already had a year under Pochettino and the previous season in his first season, they'd beaten Chelsea 5-3 on New Year's Day and it kind of felt like the club had started coming up. and so I was straight into a club that really felt upwardly mobile and you know felt like it was growing as a club you know the stadium was being built um sort of superstars in like Kane and Dele and Ericsson were kind of emerging um and yeah it really felt like a club going places so I was kind of thrown into that so I didn't really know Spurs when I guess they were a bit more parochial um I did sorry I didn't know as a reporter obviously I was a fan of them before when they were a bit more parochial and still kind of I guess a bit more small time and at the old training ground and those other things so yeah I mean obviously the club has has changed a lot in the last decade and that's obvious but I guess because a lot of it was so gradual I can't really put my finger on kind of major changes in sort of how they've operated.

20:29I mean, I think it's fair to say that like they were a bit more sensitive when I first started about bad coverage. You know, that may have been to do with sort of personnel rather than, you know, philosophy. But like, I think as a big club, like, you know, like Man U, for example, just can't be kind of trying to police all the negative articles they get you know it would just be impossible but you know i think they've i think spurs have got to a place more where you know they understand that you know there's huge interest and there's huge coverage of them and they they don't try and obviously they'll call out something that's that's unfair or factually inaccurate but i don't think they're quite as as sensitive as they were to to sort of the language being used about them because they kind of recognize that you know they're a huge part of the football ecosystem and that comes to the territory really if that makes sense i mean do you do you buy the sense that daniel levy is a bottleneck because i think one of the things i and i'm just going to rabbit my own point over here again is that i do feel i've made this comparison that he's he kind of feels a bit like the marino of chairman in in the respect that it was obviously this dynamic renegade kind of young presence within football a bit of a disruptor and as much as people are loathe to give him any credit, he quite clearly has transformed Tottenham into a giant within the footballing landscape, at least in a stature sense, in a business sense, shall we say.

22:04It's not like we're winning Premier Leagues or anything anytime soon. But it does feel like it's come with this, now this, I don't know, it just feels like there's a bit of a hangover from those early days of smoke being blowing up his ass that he just kind of feels like he can act this same sense of, I don't know, impunity, this I have to win every deal type mantra, which I think we could say this transfer window in particular feels like it's come back to sort of bite him a bit, really. Parrish, Maranakis, feels like those guys have really taken personally Daniel Levy trying to get one over them.

22:45Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. I mean, look, again, we could do like a whole pod on Levy. I mean, funnily enough, I had a drink with someone last night, just a Spurs fan. We ended up having a good chat about Levy. And they said something which I thought was really insightful and really correct, which is that, you know, Levy thinks that being a big club is winning every deal, you know, is coming out of every deal and feeling like you've got the best of it. But actually, that's not how most big clubs operate. You know, Man City don't feel they need to win every deal. They just go in and say, what do you want?

23:20OK, we'll pay it. And Levy also thinks that being a big club is kind of never selling your best players. Whereas, again, you look at City and as soon as someone says, I'm not happy here, Pep says, fine, go and we'll get someone else. So it's almost like Levy, you know, constantly thinks he's behaving like, you know, the way a big club should. but it's actually quite small time in kind of approach. You know, he's haggling over, you know, these figures that, you know, are relatively trivial. I know Spurs aren't backed by a state, and I know that's another huge question, but they have got money. Spurs have clearly got money at the moment, and yet, you know, they've seemingly, you know, on course for, I think we can say as we sit here now, you know, a pretty disastrous window unless they really pull something out of the bag in the next four days, which I think there's a very good chance they will, by the way.

24:16So, yeah, I am a Levy critic. Obviously, he's done extraordinary things in growing the stature of the club. And I do think there are enormous caveats to his record, one of which is the state ownership thing. I'll always say if the Premier League had been governed the way it should have been governed over the last 25 years, i.e. don't let really shady oligarchs and really shady states buy our football clubs which to me just seems self-evident right but apparently not then Spurs would have been far far more successful than they had been and I think you know Levy would get a lot more credit than he does get but still you know I think we've kind of reached a point where um as you say you use the word bottlenecking but you know kind of you know still allowing Levy to you know effectively close out every transfer deal and make every big football decision is kind of holding Spurs back now you know he's obviously done an enormous amount to grow the club but you know he as you said is operating the same way that he's largely operated for a quarter of a century you know the Leopard is not going to change its spots now I don't think and you know I think Spurs need to be operating a different way.

25:32It just feels quite mad doesn't it that for at least a decade we've seemingly had this same conversation which is why are we always in this position towards the end of a window why are we you know never getting our targets in early why are we never backing managers we've clearly had a very promising start under Thomas Frank I think he's demonstrated I don't I don't want to be too knee-jerk and I don't want to get too overly excited about what is still three games if we're counting PSG. But I think I've watched enough Spurs and I've watched enough football to just get a sense of this being a bit different.

26:08It does have a certain Pochettino-type feeling to it in terms of what he is galvanizing, the materials he has at his disposal. But again, I'm going off on a tangent here. the point is that we've had a we've had a decade of people saying this is Levy and then maybe some of us having a bit of a step back when it's less emotional and saying is it actually Levy though or is this just Tottenham's place in the pecking order is this just the reality of a club that isn't state-backed is this and looking for excuses and looking for ways around it but it really does just feel more and more that it really is just Levy because we continue to have It is Levy.

26:53It's obviously Levy. I mean, the club's operated, you know, in the same way for years. And I suppose having the same transfer window, which is characterised by the same things as, you know, many, many have had before. And you can't say it's Lange. He's been there for three years. You can't say it's Vinay. He's been there six months. You know, I suppose I've had countless directors of football, director of football or technical directors, whatever you want to call them. and people in senior positions, Scott Munn and Pratergi and all the rest of it. But the club continues to operate in the same way.

27:30And there's one constant at the club and that's Daniel Levy. So we can say with certainty that it is Levy. Justice for Steve Hitchin there as well. Sorry, I was racking my brain for some of the other ones, but there's been a revolving door at that kind of level, hasn't there, over the years. And it's showing no signs of stopping, by the way. the only curveball on this one is Peratici and I mean there's a lot of discussion because we've obviously heard that he's going to be coming back in a permanent role to Tottenham and there's a lot of discussion about his actual value to the club um the you know the signings that he has made thus far so on and so forth and the fans are you know as we do discussing whether or not we're happy about him coming in.

28:12But he just feels, I think out of, I mean, maybe Damien Camoli is the closest thing. I'm not just saying that because they're both Italian. But Damien Camoli feels like maybe the closest. Damien Camoli's French. Oh, is he? Well, there you go then. All the same, isn't it, mate? All the same. But my point is Perattici just seems to have a loose lead, almost like he has his own ring-fenced little budget that he manages to go off and kind of make deals on. And it feels distinctly un-Levy. I mean, do you think that's a fair kind of assessment? I don't know about his own budget, etc. But I think he is definitely someone who has impressed Levy and won him over.

29:06and I think normally these director of football types are quite kind of expendable. You see clubs changing them with a lot of regularity at the highest level. They're one in, one out. But Levy has seemingly kept the faith with Pratergi even after a pretty enormous scandal where he's banned from working in football for 30 months. so you know clearly he's a guy who's kind of trusted and well respected by the Tottenham hierarchy you know as for him coming back it's not really my job to kind of try and find out whether that's true anymore certainly in a permanent role but you know the impression I got was that he kind of didn't need to because he was working on a consultancy basis and Spurs could just kind of pick up the phone to him and say we need you now so kind of optically it was suiting them to not give them a permanent job.

30:06But whether Paratici, perhaps he said to Spurs, I want a permanent job and I'm not going to continue in this arrangement, I don't know. So perhaps they feel they might have to give him a role from October. Who knows? But yeah, I think it's fair to say that apparently he's very charismatic, Paratici, and I haven't spoken to him one-on-one. but he's quite a kind of impressive guy and I can see why Levy would kind of, yeah, I guess want someone like that on board. Spurs are obviously a club that isn't going to blow their rivals out of the water financially so they need to be kind of cannier and cleverer and better connected than their rivals in the market to get the best deals and Brad Sheaf is certainly canny, clever and well-connected.

30:59I think it gets harder to swallow, doesn't it, as a Spurs fan when you see the way Arsenal operate. Arsenal, who have roughly a similar kind of, you know, shall we say, monetary pull to what Spurs probably could. I think Arsenal probably still, low as we are to admit it, probably still have somewhat more of a standing in the game, really, than Spurs do, just about. especially recently the past few years like the way Arteta's kind of pushed them towards being a sort of you know club challenging for titles again but when you see kind of like figures about turnover and profitability and all that type of thing Spurs and Arsenal seem to be pretty neck and neck nowadays so I guess the question always comes back to why is it that they can go out and spend a hundred million pounds on a Declan Rice because they identify as somebody as a player that can take them to the next level whereas we still look back on say the 16-17 team for example and and you know mourn the fact that we never made say a couple of big signings to to push us on because I still firmly I still firmly believe that that Pete Pochettino team was was just it was a whisker away from winning the lot potentially yeah it was yeah I think you're right um yeah I I mean, I guess the Arsenal thing kind of brings us to the Eze deal and, you know, I've seen many people, including colleagues of mine, sort of say, you know, it's not Spurs' fault.

32:27You know, I don't blame Levy at all. They did everything right. They did everything right for him and Gibbs White. And I don't really swallow that, to be honest. I don't really see it that way. You know, I think the problem really with, as you put it, bottlenecking all the business through Levy is that, you know, he is inherently cautious. he is inherently kind of opportunistic he's always looking for value in the market and he's very rarely kind of active with the sort of ruthlessness and clear-sightedness of an Arsenal under Arteta and so I look at the Eze deal yes, Eze wanted to join Arsenal had the emotional attachment and probably as you alluded to Parish dallied and knew Arsenal were going to potentially come in and Eze delayed and Levy was played a bit.

33:16But had Spurs gone out and said to Parrish, we're doing this deal the day after Maddison got injured in the way that Arsenal effectively did the day after Havertz got injured, would it have been too late for Arsenal to come in? I certainly wonder about that. And I think it's really important to say that these big deals over big players between Premier League clubs are really, really difficult, like really hard. I'm not privy to the intricacies of them, but they're not easy, especially when you're a club like Spurs and you don't, you can't really just slap down 70 million up front on the table.

33:49You have to work in the add-ons and the bonuses and all the rest of it. But I still just think, you know, that there's just a pattern. And, you know, we've touched on it going back decades, you know, 25 years at Spurs of just, you know, always trying to win a deal and always trying to be too clever and always trying to have the, you know, the last word and the final say and, you know, come out feeling victorious. and I just can't help but think that that has been, again, this is just a hunch, but that has been kind of a factor in the Gibbs-White and as the deal is not coming off. And look, had Spurs kind of been, I guess, a bit luckier or things had fallen a bit differently and they got one in, and let's not forget, Gibbs-White would have been in for the start of pre-season next to Kudus.

34:40we would probably be sitting here saying what a phenomenal window, what a great window we just need to go and get a winger and maybe a centre half and the squad's looking so much stronger but that hasn't happened so as we sit here now it's looking like I suppose haven't really managed to clear the decks, they've had two humiliations and they haven't really addressed the holes in the squad so we can sort of only judge it on what's happened Hey Chicago, class it up with Crocs You know back to school is coming in fast So why wait to find your new fave footwear Step into a local Crocs store And step into your new look Try it, style it, make it yours Because the right pair doesn't just show up It shows off First day fits, handled Walk out ready for whatever's next Visit your nearest Crocs store today This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

35:41Shave ice by the beach. A trip to the state fair. And a throwback flick at the local drive-in. They're more than just items to check off the summer bucket list. They're also opportunities to earn 2 % daily cash back when you use your Apple Card with Apple Pay. Apply for Apple Card now and use in minutes with Apple Pay. Subject to credit approval. Apple Card is issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. terms and more at applecard.com. This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks.