Spurs Humbled By Forest | Vicario vs Gray, The Failure of Recruitment & Who Replaces Frank If He Goes?

31:09And that's not just in terms of winning. That's also in terms of your approach, in terms of your communication. It's not good enough that he's just a good, honest communicator. He's a role model for us and he's the guy that we put trust into. And Spurs fans trusting a manager comes from different places than a Brentford fan. Again, I feel like we're putting Brentford down and so on, but they just aren't as big clubbers. Let's be honest.

31:42Jack:Mate, they're too Bob. Come on, let's be honest. I still remember my first, one of my first Twitter views was with the Brentford fan base when I called them West London Tories and I got a bunch of them going, hey, we're working class out here, mate. Anyway, what was my point? Yeah, so like, you know, he just hasn't seen, he needs to make that leap in his approach and part of that is on the pitch in terms of his he still it feels like a lot of what he what got him success at Brentford he's tried to adapt and bring to Spurs and I think that's backfired I don't think that's worked out for him and he's also doing the same in terms of his his comms and his kind of outward projection what I will say and And, you know, like we touched on earlier, I think, I do think the owners need to take some responsibility in that as well.

32:39Because before you hire someone, you do your due diligence, right? Like you look into them and, you know, you interview people, maybe interview people around him, but you interview others to kind of hear reflections on that person, character and all that sort of stuff. and if we didn't think as a club that he was gonna change why did we hire him because we someone within our board um not even the board the sort of the steering group the deciding group um was that not a pause point for them where they went um do we think he can handle this like quote-unquote step up but then actually quantified what that means and like the communication and if we did go and then say oh we think he can take that step up but here are some of the points that we saw with Brentford you know and at Brentford he would do these like hour-long press conferences where he would sit and sort of surgically take the game apart and really with with tons of background explain all his decisions and so on to um and at many times often quite empty press room right like with only a few journalists um jay harris at the athletic has has has said that so i'm not just making that up um you know and he'd be very warm he'd be very giving with his advice whereas at spurs it's packed every single time you can't so you have to sort of you have to change your approach a little bit and you're not necessarily to your point you're not necessarily doing the right thing but giving everyone the full like airing your dirty laundry because like I said, I go back to trust in managers comes from different places.

34:18So whereas Brentford, excuse me, I've got to be a call, they might want that like surgical analysis of every game. At Spurs, we might not always want that, especially if we've lost. And especially if we've lost, we don't want that. We don't want you sitting there going about how we were 17th last season. We don't want you sitting there going on about how you think, oh, pondering, pontificating just pontificating on what a season 38 league games what does that mean you get about this many make shut the fuck up we've just lost a game like just we just need we want to know how you're going to change it like we want to know we want to it's it's very basic we don't have a lot of time we have a lot of um there's a lot of fans who are obeying for your blood already like less than 10 league games in at this point like so and you know and that that's my frustration with him but also with the like i said with the the the the um upper management the people that hired him and the people that give him day-to-day guidance and advice but also i'm like i'm a bit i'm a bit confused about what does that mean like who who's his like who's his manager you know does he have three managers does he ultimately report into vinay but he's got sort of dotted lines into johan langer and perattachy or is it is it is it perattachy or but but maybe i don't like i don't know i don't know and that's again that's what i mean it's like like you you take a manager who before we hired him everyone was saying this would be a great move and i i definitely thought it'd be a great move i thought and i hoped that it would have worked out better than it has um but i just i don't think it was a terrible appointment either like i i will stand by that i don't think it's terrible I just don't think we set him up properly.

36:02And I don't think he necessarily set himself up properly either. Does that mean he should be in charge next season? No, absolutely not. We should buy it very, very... Before we really start the summer transfer window, we need to know what we're doing with him. And we really need to have the next one lined up if that's where we're heading with a contract, ready to start with a list of transfer targets that we're going for. so that there's a plan in place. Because otherwise, we're just not a serious football club.

36:41Jack:I just... Well, it's just hard to know where to go from here, mate, because the last time we had a worse start to the season was our two points from eight-game season. Yeah, it's 22 points across our opening 16 Premier League games this season. There was also a graphic shared earlier, some stats shared about the teams we have beaten and their league positions. So I do, you know, I do think, I think people are justified in feeling as if Spurs should be doing a bit better than they are right now. I mean, one of the common and unifying factors here is the playing staff. We do need to upgrade upon them.

37:29Jack:I think that's fair to say. As I was sort of saying before with Ficari, I think we have a number of players like that. I think Pedro Porro is a fine example of one of those players who, well, does a lot of things very well, mate, but equally we constantly say, can't defend though, can I? When do we have that moment of clarity? where we say that doesn't fly at a lot of other top clubs. You know, the fact that, great, you've got a player that can do loads of things really well, and he's passionate and all this type of stuff. But if he's a horror show of a defender, then who gets skinned constantly, really, who leaves gaping holes at the back, who puts a lot of pressure on his teammates.

38:12Jack:When do we say maybe he needs upgrading, despite the fact he does have a lot of good things going for him? And I keep sort of singling out Pedro Provo. I do really like Pedro Porro. That's the thing. I really like him. I really think he's a good player. I really like a lot of his kind of guile and what he gives us going forwards. Some of his passing at times is exquisite. I'm simply saying, surely we do have to have a moment of clarity with some of these players. But I guess one step on from this is, if we are in this position with Thomas Frank right now, where the, you know, let's say the knives are out for him already.

38:54Jack:There are question marks over his future. You know, Romano, I think today has said there's serious internal discussions going on at Tottenham at the moment. Xavi Hernandez's name keeps getting kind of tossed about, all this type of thing. When do they pull the trigger on Frank if they're going to? And if they're not going to, then what, What, are you giving him$150 million in January? By all accounts, Spurs want to spend big in January. We want to go early on a player like Semenyo, someone like that. But do you do that with a manager that you want to sack, that half the fan base, more than half the fan base probably, wants you to get sacked?

39:37Jack:There's all these kind of questions that surround Spurs at all times. and I just don't have faith or confidence in them right now to be able to just take a proper step back and put in place some sort of system that will ensure we can take the proper steps forward to just stabilize the club a bit, get things kind of on a bit more of an even keel and look at how we go about rebuilding the club, the painful rebuild that Maurizio Pochettino spoke about in 2018 2019 still hasn't really happened has it like we still sort of say having these false dawns on it saying this is a painful rebuild that pochettino was going on about but i don't think we've ever truly done that um but but like i say does that kick start in january if thomas frank's still in charge and he's still hanging on by a thread or should it not matter you know should should it not matter who's in charge of the club should the club have this as i say this vision this plan that they want to adhere to that they can sign players to fit to accordingly it's help me mark help me in the dark here i'm i'm trying to find my way and i don't have a torch what do i do um just pop down screw fix mate um checker trade or whatever checker trade checker trade that's a online i'm thinking what's the comparing trade task rabbit or something it's hard to look and did you freaking answer the question yeah i'll answer the question well you answered yourself like that yes the the answer is certainly to keep buying players right and the the painful rebuild i mean i think we have now turned over every player from no we've still got ben davies um but i think he's the last one of like potches so so in in some in some respects the painful rebuild has been done it was just done too slowly and not not with adequate adequate quality right so um yeah i think there's many different issues i think one of the issues with our squad i've said this before there isn't an obvious spiritual leader right now there's no like even last season as much criticism as he got son was that was that player right kane and son kind of shared it before him um but with two of our biggest ones arguably three are on the fucking stretcher right now in in in madison uh solanke and deki right um yes we have a physical leader in romero but i don't think he's he's not a talisman for us in the same he'll pop up here and there and like he'll for me it's he's just not that person he's not he's not the the son um so i think that's a problem i think that's something we haven't we didn't identify early that that we were hugely um dependent on a player like that um but i think we you know or maybe maybe they were and maybe that's what kudus is maybe that's what chevy simmons is maybe that's what we think koulamani is or the club thinks um or could be or is turning into but who knows um but yeah i mean i i think i think even if we are like i said my my and i i I don't think, unless we get close to relegation, I don't think I will change my opinion on leaving Frank until the summer just because I think of all the collateral damage that it will do.

43:05Not because he's damaged, but just all the collateral damage and just how much chaos it will bring. But then you've just got to be smart through January, right? I think Semenyo, if he will come, I think is a fantastic player. I think any manager we bring in would love to have Semenyo. I've heard of Omarodian potentially, or there's others as well, Yomande. So, you know, all these are names that would fit different managers. And I think that's the way to go. And not just specifically really target Frank's players. How do you do that internally without him kind of sussing that something's up? Yeah, okay, tricky, but here's what it is.

43:50Not a problem. So, yeah, but you're right as well. Like, we shouldn't, the club should be buying, should be buying players for the future, right? Which is what they've done, you know. Archie Gray, Berghoff, you've mentioned Vuscovic before, Koto Takai, like, there's lots and lots of examples of this. But then you do need to also buy system players, players that fit the current system and might not be there for eight years. And that's obviously where the manager comes in. So I think we just need to be a little bit careful what we do in January and not splash 100 million on someone that Thomas Frank really, really wants.

44:34But I just, I can't see that happening either. But again, this is my point. If we go out and buy a caretaker manager now, we are leaving January window completely up to two, by the way, sporting directors who are two very different people and no one, you know, a caretaker manager, we're then trusting to make the call because that is ultimately what it would be down to, right? It's these two sporting directors, their two separate teams scout these players and take them past club hierarchy, but also the manager and the manager has a big part in the say. I just think, I think it'd be such a bad decision.

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46:27Jack:Blizzard Potato. It's certified fresh and verified hot. Now we party. This is incredible! Wow! I am clear in the rest of the day. Disney and Pixar's Hoppers now available on Disney+. Rated PG. You just, you know, this is an audio format, but obviously we can see each other as we record this. You did roll your eyes when I mentioned the sort of the rumour mill kicking off about Xavi Hernandez coming in. What is it that you don't particularly like about him? Because, you know, I don't claim to know enough about him. I know that he obviously won the league with Barcelona, didn't really do an awful lot else with him.

47:10Jack:it all got a bit toxic and weird didn't it and since that point he hasn't I think he did he manage Qatar for a while didn't he so he's had that as a as a job um but other than that he's not really he's not really done anything um there's some talk about the fact that his style of football probably wouldn't work in the Premier League but also some talk that he is known to be very good with young players nurtures young talent brings them to the fore the bit that sort of appeals to me about it just on a real sort of surface level way is he's a name he's a big name xavi hanan xavi simmons is literally named after him um i do wonder the sort of impact if we are finding ourselves in a position this season where things start to spiral and say frank goes after a couple of games you know we get absolutely slapped about by liverpool um and then you know he's he's teetering on the brink at that point we're bringing somebody like xavi I wonder if like somebody with that aura, the, the, the, the, the, I don't know, the, the, the presence he had as a player, his legendary status within the game, at least gives the club something of a lift, at least inspires some of these young players.

48:23Jack:But is that enough? I don't know. What are your, what are your reservations about him, mate? I mean my main one is he's never managed in the in the Premier League if I'm totally honest with you but also his his CV is just just not there for me I don't think it would be a considered approach I think I think there's a lot of you know the the the sort of football tactical neckbeards of Twitter will say oh I love his approach and he's rigidly married to the 4-3-3 and he's a lot more about positional play and he's a lot more he's he's he's way more back to an ange than a than than than a frank right like it's it's it's close much closer to ange than it is frank so all the people that loved all that all-out attack and all that sort of stuff they they will they will like this high press all that sort of stuff vertical fucking tiki-taka all that stuff that that's And I get all that, but all that stuff only comes into play when you have a squad that's ready to take it on board and also crucially can apply.

49:34I don't think either is true of us right now. I also don't think he would fit in with our structure very well. I mean, he was the man at Barcelona as a player for so long and that's a huge, I don't want to talk him down, and that sort of stuff. I believe that was the driving factor in why he got that job. You know, I think Zinedan at Real Madrid and all that sort of stuff as well. Like in Spain, they have got, they've got this kind of concept and it often works out to a degree. Like, but I just, I don't see him working. I think he's a complete gamble in the English game. I don't see him working in our structure.

50:15I think he's too volatile for our setup. one which is still in its infancy because as you said we've had change from the top down literally from the owners down I don't know how he would react in that sort of circumstance I think it needs to be I think in a lot of ways I think it needs to be more someone like Thomas Frank who's a little bit more unassuming and isn't going to come in and start throwing his toys out the pram from day two when he doesn't get what he wants um I just don't I think he'll be unserious I don't think it would be the right choice. As much as I like attacking football, I see the game differently.

50:49I want there to be, because I want us to win long term. I want us to be consistently winning. I don't care about the next game. Like I don't care about, honestly, I'm not sitting here and saying I don't care about the Europa League last season, but I'll be honest with you, the Europa League win last season matters less to me because we finished 17th than it would have done if we finished 8th or 10th and with our performance this season as well I mean I totally take your point about I don't think I agree I don't think we like deliberately sabotaged our league last season our league performance to go far in the Europa League I think it was I think it's anyway we can do another part about that but like I just don't think I think there's many reasons why for me he would not work at this point in time I think he needs to go and get another job somewhere that is and you know if he gets it in the Premier League that's that's brilliant I think for us where we are at the moment I think someone with Premier League pedigree is almost a must for the next appointment and Mauricio Pochettino yeah I wouldn't be against that I think for me there's only two names and it's it's it's Glasner or it's it's Poch um I wouldn't be huge don't you see Glasner

52:11Jack:going the same way as this Frank stuff you know another manager that really relishes not having a lot of possession and I just I just don't feel that good about the idea of Glasner coming in and replacing Frank no I mate I'm I totally I didn't say I liked it I didn't say I loved it but they're They're the only two names for me really right now. I don't buy Marco Silva. Do you think Jürgen will be tempted back? No chance. Ruin his legacy. I think he'd be tempted back, but I think he'd be tempted back as caretaker manager for six months if Slott gets the sack. There's no chance of him. I mean, I'm kind of quite uniquely placed as well because I'm literally in Liverpool.

52:54The love and the reverence they have for the man up here and the other way, by the way, which is why this, I'm saying this, I just don't see, there's fucking cafes named after him in Liverpool. There's people that still fly flags with his face on, with a Liverpool crest in the background out of their gardens. I drive past one when I go to the fucking airport. Like it's, it is different. Like I mean, he's come out and said it himself. I don't know how people say stuff in interviews when they're emotionally charged and that sort of stuff. but I honestly can't see him where he is in his career and what sort of stuff I don't think he's going to come back to the Premier League and manage another team in Liverpool and I think he feels so strongly about it and I mean of course I'd love him I'd be stupid to say I wouldn't want him to Spurs of course he's an absolute elite manager but I don't see it happening

53:47Jack:I was just kind of being a bit challenged I was joking more than anything I don't think Jürgen I'm sorry I'm embarrassed that I answered so unpassionately But I'm surprised you're such a stickler for somebody, say, with Premier League pedigree. You know, we see plenty of examples of managers coming from outside the Premier League and doing a great job and then Spurs seemingly going for them. I almost feel that one of the problems we've had the past few years is that we just try to take other managers from within the Premier League, that maybe we need to stop kind of, you know, going for a near aola or somebody like that and finding our own one first.

54:24Jack:Um, equally, you know, Julian Nagelsmann is by some bookmakers the favorite to be the next Tottenham manager. As far as I was aware, he quite publicly turned Spurs down a few years ago. Um, that might've been a Daniel Levy thing. I don't know. I just, I sort of feel like if we are to get rid of Thomas Frank, they're either going to have to go with something that makes the majority of the fan base happy, Maurizio Pochettino, I think it would, or they're going to go for the big one. They want to show that they're serious. And that to me is a Julian Nagelsmann, a Xavi Alonso, even though he has just had this sort of semi-fall from grace at Madrid.

55:13Jack:So did Rafa van der Vaart, and he did all right when he came to Tottenham, albeit as a player, not as a manager. The expectations placed upon players at clubs like Real Madrid, managers clubs at Real Madrid, it's a very different proposition. um i you know i i just just god forbid you know they went for somebody like southgate you know he's still hovering about there's still a brendan rogers hovering about you know i i just i think when we are when we are talking about i mean this is why i'm not going harder on the on the frank out thing because i think there are there are a lot of options that people you know be careful what you wish for basically that that's that's where i land on it because there are a lot of options floating around that i could see the club doing for you know would you say it was would it be totally beyond the club to offer brendan rogers a contract to the end of the season and say to him let's see how you do to the end of the season if you get us going well then we'll make it a full-time deal and then we we're stuck with him for two three years and i'm sure we'd play some nice football in patches but also we know where it always goes under Brennan Johnson Brendan Johnson Brennan Johnson all of them fucking all of them yeah Brendan Rodgers fucking hell no

56:36I think we'd I'd rather see Justin Cochran in charge than Brendan Rodgers and one is with you but

56:42Jack:but he's the he's the attacking coach and we can't attack mate what's going on with that I know you know what I mean bring Martin O 'Neill back he's a lovely man I mean they didn't want him at Celtic I feel bad for him. Come down here. No, again, this is the thing. This whole conversation is coming about because we're assuming that he, we're kind of playing with the idea that he will get the sack, which I think, and as much as we don't want to, like we don't want to see Spurs play badly, I also don't, we don't want it to become a joke, right? Because we will, it will just become so much harder for us to come back from that.

57:22not just as fans but as a club like if we become a joke even more of a joke then it'll be even harder for us to attract the next elite manager that we need or attract the next elite talent, playing talent and people always I always go on about that people always are like oh you don't know what the fuck you're talking about people just look at Man United and blah blah blah I get it but Man United have two things we don't they are the biggest club in the world and they can pay 500 grand a week, neither of which we can do. So when you're sort of taking that into account, yeah, it matters less that your club is a fucking, is a bin on fire.

58:02Like, but we don't have either of those. So yeah, we just need to, we need to be, we need to understand what we are and kind of act like it. And by that, I do mean not just hiring a, a Brian Rogers is not a has-been manager like that's harsh but like someone of his name honestly I would rather us never been Jesus I would rather give it to an internal caretaker manager or we take a punt on a you know an assistant coach from another huge club you know similar to Enzo Morsko at Chelsea kind of vibes so yeah I'm sort of I am split but it's it's this again it's us it's us a club back to this fucking manager merry-go-round again and again and again we never seem to hold on to anyone for more than well

59:02Jack:in the time that we've been recording Sammy Mockbell has written an exclusive for the BBC saying that there is currently a willingness at Tottenham to give Thomas Frank an opportunity to lay the foundations towards a path to success, similar to the one Vinay Venkateshin afforded to Mikel Arteta. Venkateshin was integral to Arsenal's decision to stick with Arteta during some of Arsenal's lowest depths. You know, that will not be music to the ears of a lot of people. It's about 65 % of the foundations, yeah. But again, I guess it takes me back to that point at the start when we say, how low is too low?

59:45Jack:You know, when do they say this isn't working? When do they get rid of him? Is it if relegation becomes a genuine real fear? I don't know. Have we seen enough green shoots from Thomas Frank? I don't know. We've kind of covered all of this sort of thing, but it's interesting to note that this is the path. The main point is they're saying that there won't be a knee-jerk reaction made over something like the Nottingham Forest game the other day. Yeah. And I think that's the sensible solution or decision, sorry, solution, decision. It doesn't solve the players, sorry, the fans moaning about the playing style.

1:00:27It doesn't win us more games. It does give us a better long-term ability to turn this around. even if honestly even if we they stick with him until the summer and we finish I mean let's be let's be generous if we finish you know 10th to me that's still better than going out now and just throwing the baby out with the bathwater and trying again on some manager and getting someone in I mean again who are we getting and we're going around in circles I get that but I just I think as a club we are much more of a serious club if we do that I think Frank just needs Frank just needs to fucking improve he needs to and the players the players need to improve as well the whole club from the top down the club senior leadership need to back them up need to support them in getting better right like we need we need to buy players good players as soon as we possibly can

1:01:32for them to come out of this as well. But you're right. I mean, they kind of have to come out and say this as well. This has to be the message, right? Because it doesn't make them look good either. And they're in a period of transition. So they need to be careful about their own steps and their own next steps. Because, you know, I think the Lewis's have come out and said that they're not interested in and they've even rejected offers to buy the club, right? But if the right offer comes in, the right bid comes in, they will sell. Then they're going to get less for a badly run club in chaos than they are for a club with a good foundation, with a good management taking the right decisions.

1:02:11So it just feeds into everything that I think we need to do as a football club.

1:02:17Jack:Mark, I'd like to say it's been a pleasure talking to you. The subject matter right now, not so much. But yeah, it's always good to chat to you, mate. Hopefully, when I next get you on in, let's say, a few weeks' time, we'll be in a much better place, right? We'll have won some games and... Win some football, yeah. I mean, that'd be nice, wouldn't it? Imagine that. Just a crumb of winning, Jack. That'd be lovely. Please, sir. It's Christmas time. A bit of Christmas cheer. Please, can I have a crumb of winning? Exactly. At least we're not wolves, eh? At least we're not wolves. We gave them one of their crumbs.

1:02:58Jack:We literally gave them a crumb. Fucking Tottenham. We're the charity. Back where we started. Mark, much love. You too, bruv. Thanks for having me.

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