In short
Tottenham’s 3-1 win at Crystal Palace (“Spurs Win But No Joy?”) and what it reveals about Thomas Frank’s early tenure, Spurs’ squad quality, January spending, and VAR’s impact on football enjoyment.
Guest backgrounds
Two Spurs-focused podcasters (one hosts/streams a reaction pod on YouTube; both are long-time Tottenham fans). They discuss tactics, transfers, and media narratives from a supporter perspective.
Key claims
A win is celebrated, but the performance is described as uninspiring with “no evidence” of a clear playing identity. Frank is criticized for “negging” and repeatedly invoking Spurs’ 17th-place finish to justify low expectations, which the guests say risks becoming self-fulfilling. They argue Spurs must spend in January regardless of Frank’s future, because needed profiles (midfielders who can pass, athletic midfielders, a striker, wingers/creatives) fit any system. VAR is condemned as removing the “spark of joy,” turning goals into delays and uncertainty.
Notable examples
Archie Gray’s first senior goal (112th appearance) to give Spurs the lead; Porro’s poor crossing/overhit channels; Adam Wharton as a model midfield talent; Morgan Rodgers’ goal and ref-cam VAR mindset; Arsenal cited as an exception; Palace set-piece problems; discussion of VAR “clear and obvious” failures.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOSpurs' Recent Performance Overview
0:47 to 2:14
Analyzing Tottenham's win against Crystal Palace and its implications.
“More set-piece problems for Crystal Palace.”
Balancing Wins with Managerial Concerns
2:14 to 4:58
Discussing the tension between enjoying a win and concerns over the manager.
“yes honest question no wrong answer yes I that as an aside to that I don't who's falling for that?”
Confidence Issues and Team Dynamics
4:58 to 7:33
Exploring the impact of low confidence on Spurs' performance.
Thomas Frank's Management Style
7:33 to 9:50
Critiquing Thomas Frank's approach and its effect on the team.
“Now, I think we can talk about that being a naive approach, that that isn't really going to work in the Premier League anymore.”
Expectations vs. Reality for Spurs
9:50 to 14:04
Discussing the high expectations for Spurs and the reality of their current situation.
Reflecting on Ambition and Performance
14:04 to 15:08
Discussion on the team's past performance and ambitions moving forward.
“last year we got the squad got a taste for it we want to add more silverware we want to be ambitious just we're thinking bigger picture.”
Analyzing Team Strategy and Player Needs
16:17 to 19:10
Discussion on the team's playing style and the need for new players.
“People like Langer should be, and I mean, this is a different conversation entirely, but still there's people like Langer in place who are there to build the squad regardless of who the manager is.”
Exploring Player Transfer Potential
19:10 to 23:58
Discussion surrounding player Adam Wharton and the challenges in attracting talent.
“Yeah, that moment where he just got the ball, popped it out immediately, perfectly, and just looped this ball up over into the box.”
The Impact of VAR on Football Enjoyment
24:13 to 28:00
A critical look at how VAR affects the enjoyment of watching football.
“If I'm brutally honest, and I said this in the post-match yesterday, if I'm brutally honest, the spark of joy that comes just as a reflex to a lot of goals.”
The Burden of VAR on Football
28:00 to 29:00
Explore the negative impact of VAR on the enjoyment of football.
“And this just keeps, this just keeps razoring through it constantly that it's so hard to like keep that momentum going game to game, even minute to minute during a match itself.”
Show all 21 chapters
Public Sentiment on VAR
29:00 to 30:20
Discuss the widespread dissatisfaction with the VAR system among fans.
“I'm not bemoaning as having lost as a result of VAR.”
Conspiracies and the Future of VAR
30:20 to 31:40
Delve into theories about the introduction of VAR related to betting concerns.
“And I really feel like the footballing authorities do need to listen to fans and do something about it because I see next to nobody, next to nobody.”
Financial Realities of Attracting Talent
31:40 to 32:40
Analyze Tottenham's wage cap and its effect on recruiting elite players.
Evaluating Spurs' Transfer Strategy
32:40 to 34:20
Critique the club's past transfer strategies and player retention.
“So Ali Gold has said that there's some talk that Vinay Venkatesham acknowledges that Spurs need to lift their wage cap in order to attract the biggest stars to Tottenham Hotspur Football Club.”
Daniel Levy's Legacy
34:20 to 36:50
Discuss the impact of Daniel Levy's decisions on the club's current state.
“Considering the cost of going to watch Spurs, considering the stature of the club now, the stadium, all that type of stuff.”
The Big Six Debate
40:02 to 41:25
Examine Tottenham's status in relation to other competitive teams.
“I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, that was us.”
Future Prospects for Spurs
41:25 to 42:04
Consider the potential for Spurs to regain competitive stature.
“We're sort of talking about wanting to catch up again with Arsenal.”
Assessing Spurs' Current Squad and Future Needs
42:04 to 44:30
Discussion on the squad's current state and what is needed for improvement.
“to be playing football more in the fashion that we're seeing from a team like Villa.”
Revisiting Expectations and Management Choices
44:31 to 48:48
Exploration of fan expectations and the suitability of potential managerial candidates.
“You know, are we the club, like I was sort of saying at the top, are we the club anymore that can go for the Adam Whartons?”
The Role of Money in Club Progress
48:49 to 51:02
Analysis of how financial investment can shape Spurs' future.
Upcoming Fixtures and League Performance
51:03 to 55:04
Overview of upcoming matches and reflection on the current league situation.
“Someone who gets it, someone who's going to come out to bat for us is sorely what we need.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:005 a.m.
0:01Jack:I'm up with a crisp Celsius energy drink. Running 12 miles today. Grab a green juice, quick change, and head to work. Meetings, workshops. One more Celsius, no slowing down. Working late, but obviously still meeting the girls for a little dancing. Celsius. Live. Fit. Go. Grab a cold, refreshing Celsius at your local retailer or locate now at Celsius.com.
0:24Phil:They say you should learn something new every day. Like how you should only drink Jägermeister at zero degrees Fahrenheit. Ice cold. Like those frozen cavemen they find. Which makes you wonder, what would a caveman think of Jägermeister? Well, if you served it warm, he'd probably throw it in your face, say, Oonga Boonga, and storm off. And nobody wants that. So drink it cold or not at all. Jägermeister. Damn, that's cold. Drink responsibly. Jägermeister liqueur. 35 % alcohol by volume. Imported by Masked Jägermeister. U.S. White Plains, New York.
1:19Jack:Ugh. Save for details.
1:26Jack:Oro's delivery is deep. Danso was there. And in! Archie Gray got the final touch. More set-piece problems for Crystal Palace. But Archie Gray, in his 112th appearance in senior football, has his first goal. And it's given Spurs the lead.
1:50Jack:phil um you know how i obviously i do after every one of my every one of my look at that that's a mask slipping isn't it every one of my games after every time our beloved club club jesus christ this has not started well has it every time our beloved club tottenham hotspur football club plays a club and does a club plays a match right i do a you know a reaction pod and i've started streaming it on youtube right and as youtube being as youtube is i notice that when i have a say a thumbnail when i'm pointing at the camera and i look animated or something like that I tend to get more views do you think I'm debasing myself by doing that though?
2:41Phil:yes
2:42Jack:honest question no wrong answer
2:43Phil:yes I that as an aside to that I don't who's falling for that? like you see all these like mad and we've talked about enough like these kind of YouTube thumbnails where it's quite clearly an over exaggerated pitch you know or something it's so like cheesy isn't it? but the fact it works is really you know depressing lots of there's always red arrows
3:10Jack:pointing at things isn't it with did he die written on the thumbnail and do you know what i mean it's that's that type of thing isn't it which generally has no relation to what's actually in the video whatsoever yeah what's he cooking stuff like that one of the ones i like is the worst fouls in football history and you'll see they'll have like photoshopped a thumbnail where someone's head has been chopped off or something do you know what i mean do you know yeah yeah
3:34Phil:yeah and people and people click on it thinking that's what they're gonna see it's mad there's
3:39Jack:no critical thinking anymore is there jack there isn't i mean not there is there is on this podcast especially when you and i this meeting of minds the last bastion of critical thinking
3:56Jack:um yeah what did you i was see i was trying my best to like get everyone enthusiastic i wasn't trying to be toxically positive but i was actually genuinely very happy that we'd won at sellhurst park regardless of the circumstances i really was starting to get a bit worried that spurs might get relegated but lots of and you know we still might i don't know but it felt like a lot of the the feedback last night overwhelmingly so really was i didn't like that i don't like thomas frank i hate everything i hate you so on and so forth yeah sorry about that mate yeah so i mean look where where do you where do you draw the line mate where where where do you stop being happy about Spurs winning because you don't like the manager or does that supersede everything Tottenham Hotspur three points the holy grail there we are we have won like that's good isn't it at the end of the are we losing sight of that I don't know yeah I mean I don't
5:03Phil:think it's a contradiction to say I'm happy Spurs won and that doesn't necessarily mean that you're forgiving all the sins that we have been seeing and a lot of the sins we were seeing yesterday as well i think both things can be true at the end of the day i want to see spurs win games so that kind of trumps everything in the in the moment right but again that doesn't kind of um remove the fact that the way we're winning and the way we're playing and why we won that game you know there's lots to be discussed about that and you know the kind of you know was it us that won or did palace just run out of steam and all that sort of thing but at the end of the day spurs won a game so that has to be good and it's okay to sort of enjoy that aspect of it just the kind of mathematical aspect that we put three points on the board um yeah so again i think both things can be true how do you feel though how do i feel um yeah yeah again i mean i think i said was i on last week i can't remember if i was on last week anyway i think my my my train of thought at the moment is we just need to start winning games not necessarily because of relegation looming but it's definitely kind of a a thing to just dispel with with wins so yeah i think we we're at rock bottom in many ways so three points is what we need to focus on once we get them build a foundation hopefully move from there you know i don't think that those three points that we got yesterday there was huge signs of any sort of you know good play happening or foundations for a spring ball for something else but a win is a win so I'm not gonna look a gift horse up the Arras so to speak
6:45Jack:I mean it really it really is quite stark at times I do have to say when I when I watch Spurs like the positivity stuff aside right got that out the way front loaded with that bit right let's dive in now to the to the proper misery when I watch Spurs it is incredibly uninspiring and I do take on board a lot of the stuff that Frank is saying whether it rattles us or not when he's saying you know it was a team low on confidence they finished 17th last year I know a lot of people take that as a jibe against Poster Coglu I personally don't really feel like it's intended that way obviously I have no sort of insight into what Thomas Frank is actually thinking but he doesn't strike me as that type of character anyway um i think he's just trying to lay it out in as you know characteristically pragmatic fashion as he can this is a team that finished 17th last season they got into a habit of losing games confidence was low i need to build that up brick by brick and it seems to be the the first the foundation if you like the first layer of bricks is to grind out wins in a particularly unpleasant way, a way that minimizes the chances of us losing.
8:05Jack:Now, I think we can talk about that being a naive approach, that that isn't really going to work in the Premier League anymore. So to be proactive is probably your safest bet in a lot of instances, really. There's very few teams. I mean, we sort of characterize your Burnleys and the like as being the sort of low block rugby teams, if you like, in the Premier League. But I think even like Burnley are a team that try to play football. I think most teams in the Premier League do, other than ironically enough Arsenal, who are sort of top of the league at the moment. I guess the thing I'm trying to drive at is, right now is what we're seeing Thomas Frank simply trying to learn the ropes, if you like.
8:54Jack:He's learning on the job. It's a step up for him. It's, you know, a club with a lot of expectation. There's a lot of eyeballs upon it. Maybe he's underestimated that. Maybe he couldn't have even fully, I don't know, been able to grasp that, what with his experience thus far. And, you know, I don't know. I don't know, all these sort of intangible things. do you feel that like there is anything whatsoever that you look at that you can cling on to and think when this clicks we might actually be onto something because you know I won't just put this onto you because I would say no there isn't as much as I criticized Ange Postacoglu a lot of the time especially towards the end I reckon I was more critical of him there was still always that hesitancy to do so because you we saw the opening 10 games of his tenure we saw hints of it throughout his tenure that you know if we had a you know maybe a couple of different players or if maybe this player wasn't injured or something we might be doing a bit better what i see under thomas frank consistently is nothing really you know like and it's actually it's actually quite alarming um I mean there's a part of me that I really don't want to be superlative about it But like I almost feel like we have more of an idea Under Nuno than Frank is showing Thus far And it's actually Really quite surprising to me I really did think Frank would be A lot better than this To Reduce it to simple terms
10:28Phil:Yeah yeah again I'm just As you're speaking I was just kind of replaying Parts of that game yesterday sort of like the NAM flashback memes when it was sort of nil-nil and some of the play like you're right there is no obvious thing that we're trying to do I mean you know all right we play up on the wings but even then that doesn't that doesn't work and it just seems like players don't really know you know so many balls like Porro's crossing and passing has become really really bad or you certainly there's been big examples of him over hitting crosses and stuff or just putting balls into channels where the other player doesn't really kind of know that they're supposed to be running in there so there's weird gaps in what we're supposed to be doing so yeah like your point about and under post the cold glue that at least we could see what he was trying to do there is real no evidence of that is there and you know going back to your point there about him um saying about it's a low confidence issue i don't really know if that makes sense either because they shouldn't they shouldn't be on on low confidence or there's enough there to be able to kind of get them out of that or kind of just speak it in a different way right we just want a massive trophy focus on that right i think this is what thomas frank is getting wrong certainly in front of the media and i suppose behind closed doors as well if he's being sort of one-to-one truant in what he's saying that I think he's just getting that wrong I think he's getting the expectations wrong what he's saying is is wrong I think he's he's um being quite naive where he's speaking to sort of truthfully about what's wrong yes we did finish 17th but the more you keep evoking that or invoking that the more it becomes true for the club right as opposed to it being an aberration that can be excused away now it's become a thing oh no well Spurs are the 17th place finished team and that you know mentality wise starts to seep in but again like that this been that being all that being said about frank i still think that i just players just aren't aren't great you know i just i just feel like that's the only kind of explanation i can come as to why players can't make passes or can't read what each other doing and all right that comes from playing together and understanding things and yeah we've had to kind of rotate quite a lot um but i just i just think a lot of this is down to the squad just not being technically good enough there was a lot of
12:54Jack:naysaying about frank's interviews just in respect to people who were upset with i think it was a sky sports interview he did and there was similar comments from him in the pre-match presser ahead of the palace game which as as you say there were all on a similar theme of we're not very good we weren't very good it's really difficult so on and so forth right and a lot of people say well why is it why is that triggering you why is it why are you so upset about that um he's just saying what we're all thinking but i that doesn't quite fly does it you know of course it's our job of course it's our job as the fans to podcasters whoever to sit and moan and complain and catastrophize about everything to do with the club what you want the manager to do surely as i sort of keep saying on here is deliver that vision for what the club can be not this is what happened and it's really difficult surely it's we are uh we're a we're a magnificent side huge stadium great fan base there's a real foundation here we have a lot of talented players to really build on that cup win last year we got the squad got a taste for it we want to add more silverware we want to be ambitious just we're thinking bigger picture.
14:12Jack:We want to put last season, the league form behind us and build and go forwards. But like you say, it's like he's desperate to cling on to that. And I guess I'm just trying to work out in my head, is that a sort of self-preservation? Because it feels like it is. It feels like he's hesitant to be ambitious because he's almost got to keep clinging on to the fact that the team didn't do very well last year. So you can't expect too much of him this year. And that brings me back to the start where I question quite simply, is he the right character? Is he the right man for this type of job, for this type of step up?
14:52Jack:And I think thus far, I would say the proof is no, really, right?
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16:01Jack:protein is now at starbucks and it's never tasted so good you can add protein cold foam to your favorite drink or try one of our new protein lattes or matcha try it today at starbucks
16:16Phil:yeah yeah again we just have no we have nothing apart from a couple of decent results and performances two or three there's been nothing really to point to us of what we're trying to achieve here on the pitch what our style of play is what other than the obvious of sitting back and just counter-attacking teams which you know in some in some regards that's fine or some game states that's fine but in terms of kind of set this up that way as you say I don't think it kind of works in the modern game necessarily for for a club who wants to kind of go on to achieve things and that's what it should be it should be about talking about the potential of what this club could be as opposed to kind of harking back to our worst you know aberrative season in however many years it was it feels like as you say it feels like he's just negging us so that he you know he's calling us unattractive so that we stay with him you know saying oh no no one else will
17:09Jack:want you it feels a bit like that doesn't it a bit um and it's yeah it's it's frustrating to say the least where are you at with him mate like because there's a lot of discussion now about January the transfer window is coming up if we give him a load of money is that is that going to push us further into this spiral if we're backing a manager like him that we don't believe in blah blah blah blah blah I sort of made the point yesterday that I don't really care I want Spurs to spend money. We need more players in this squad. People like Langer should be, and I mean, this is a different conversation entirely, but still there's people like Langer in place who are there to build the squad regardless of who the manager is.
17:58Jack:So it doesn't really wash with me that we should suddenly, like as fans want to self-impose a transfer ban because we don't like the manager right now, right? I mean, I don't know.
18:09Phil:Yeah, I mean, I don't think the idea of not spending in January because Frank might be out the door makes any sense personally because we need better players so just go and buy some and again we're not we don't it's not like we're going from a system where I mean Conte I suppose is the way he played with his wing backs they had very specific ways of playing it had to have a very kind of specific profile but even then you know you can just coach players to play slightly further forward or slightly further back or you know So, I mean, what are we talking about here? We're talking about central midfielders who are strong, athletic and can pass the football.
18:49Phil:Those players fit in any system in any team. A striker that can hold the ball up and score goals. A winger that can beat his man and cut in, cut outside, put a good cross in or, you know, a creative player that can pull the strings from the midfield. There's no football system on earth that doesn't fit those sorts of players, the players that we need, because I think we're working from such a low bar in that regard. ones again just maybe it's a maybe i'm focusing too much on the my assumptions about the quality of our squad but still so yeah my point is i don't buy the fact that we don't spend money in january just because we don't know what frank's gonna do or what we're gonna do with frank because
19:28Jack:it's irrelevant you know i tell you what i wouldn't half like that adam wotton lad right Did you see him yesterday, mate? Bloody hell.
19:37Phil:Yeah, that moment where he just got the ball, popped it out immediately, perfectly, and just looped this ball up over into the box. I think it was in the second half. Just good stuff and just smooth and seems to be completely in the right place at all times, which is a skill in itself. It's probably something that is overlooked for those sorts of players because he's just there, whereas our central midfielders seem to be all over the place all the time. but yeah quality quality player obviously and again it's probably the sort of player that at the moment we should be thinking buy him because he's the next one off the rank in terms of you know going from a small club for a massive fee and his quality so it should be you know whether or not a hundred million is too much for him or something if that's what it costs then you know that's the game now
20:24Jack:I mean is it in today's market you know I don't know right he because that's definitely what Palace would demand, right? A fee around that amount.
20:35Phil:Especially in January, especially given everything that kind of is wrapped up in, you know, Glasner staying or going. But, you know, again, Palace aren't necessarily in the strongest financial position. So if we offer the money as much as it might upset their fan base and upset the manager and everything, I think they'll probably be minded to take it. But again, it has to be not Daniel Levy style structured to the point where it actually doesn't benefit you at all. It has to be a big dog move, right? Put the money down.
21:04Jack:It's potentially chastening though, isn't it? Because we could be in an era right now, and I'm not trying to be negative about it. I'm just trying to be realistic to a degree. We could be in an era right now where a player like Wharton looks at Spurs and thinks, I'll wait for Chelsea or City to come in, you know? because
21:29Jack:yeah nice big stadium got Champions League football now because we won the Europa League last year but if I was somebody like Wattenham you're going to have to make your next step very carefully aren't you and I would look at us and think I just don't know if Spurs are in the right place now to ditch Palace and go to to another club I think he's going to Yeah, he's quite clearly signed an extension there last year, didn't he? Because he's got, I'm assuming he has an air of, I don't know, appreciation to the club for nurturing his talent and bringing the best out of him, for providing him the opportunity to play week in, week out.
22:13Jack:He's now an FA Cup winner. He's playing European football for now with them. You know, his career is coming along nicely there. I think he's in a good place. He's the main man there. and I do just one as well yeah I do just wonder if like coming to Spurs is that much of a carrot right now and I'm not doing that again I'm not doing the sort of doom saying will it ever be again there's every chance can be we have a couple of good seasons again look at Arsenal you know a few years ago they couldn't really attract the sort of talent they wanted to like they were once able to and now they can because they've gotten better right um so I'm not saying that Spurs will never ever again be able to attract a player like Adam Walsh.
22:54Jack:I just wonder if right now we are that team. Because when I was watching him yesterday, just stroking the ball around midfield, just seemingly so effortlessly, you just look at him and think, that's the guy you see in Man City colours doing that for probably the next decade or close to, right?
23:14Phil:Yeah, yeah. And I think that it's highly likely that, But as you say, if there's no kind of viable options and Spurs being not one of them at the moment, then it's probably the right thing for him to do for his age and say, sign an extension at Palace, you're still 21, see it out for a couple of years, see what the other kind of bigger teams, Arsenal, City, Chelsea, Villa, Liverpool, whoever, see what their midfields are looking like and a gap might open up. At the moment, it doesn't look like there's any sort of massive need for him. I mean, you could probably make an argument for him to go to any of those clubs now just because of how good he is.
23:49Phil:But I think you're right. I think that the Spurs probably aren't even in the conversation, which is, again, why you probably should still be harking back to the fact that we finished 17th last season. We should be building up the profile of the club rather than playing it down, you know, because I think all these things, even in a small way, they do matter.
24:13Jack:I want to talk about VAR, and I don't want to go over the same old ground again, but it does feel like it's necessary to do so because at times football feels like an exercise in smashing your head against a wall, doesn't it? If I'm brutally honest, and I said this in the post-match yesterday, if I'm brutally honest, the spark of joy that comes just as a reflex to a lot of goals. I'm not going to say most, but to a lot of goals nowadays is no longer there. The Archie Gray goal is a perfect example of this. You see a ball get whipped into a mass of bodies. You see shirts all over the place. It all happens very quickly.
Read the full transcript
25:01Jack:You don't really know who's made contact, who hasn't, who's in what position, who's pulling whose shirt. You see the ball going to the back of the net. You see Spurs players wheeling away. But instantly now I'm just like, well, let's just wait and see. Let's see if that's a goal. That's really shit, isn't it?
25:18Phil:Yeah, yeah. And I think telling, I don't know if you saw it, but there was the ref cam for the Villa, was it Villa United game? I think it was.
25:29Jack:When Morgan Rodgers scored those screamers.
25:31Phil:Yeah, yeah. And even on that, I mean, you know, it was quite illuminating to see sort of how the ref kind of, what we asked to consider and all that sort of thing. But both those goals that Morgan Rodgers just like broke and whipped in not like you know crossing the ball across a you know crowded penalty area where someone might have crept offside you know just lashing it in right the most purest of goals even then it was like on field decision goal and you're like that's a very weird mindset to be or you know the fact that he has to be like on field decision his goal when it's clearly nothing wrong with it it just suggests that there's always in this element of well we'll probably have to go back and check everything to make sure that there was no minor infringement which again you know this is the point about VAR I think in theory it's a very helpful tool to use if used correctly but we're just not using it correctly the fact that everything is checked all the time you know what as you say it really does kind of draw away from the enjoyment of football um it's that maddening
26:35Jack:thing though isn't it that this is for clear and obvious errors and I know this is such a boring thing for people to keep parroting but it's true it was supposed to be for clear and obvious errors to remove this sort of air of subjectivity out of refereeing but it's just added another layer to it all it's it just seems completely it's like the the snake eating its own tail i don't i don't get what we're doing here we just we've added more chaos into a situation that is actually just seeping enjoyment out of what has always been one of the most enjoyable things in existence, which is watching football.
27:13Jack:Watching football is, even when your team's crap, you find joy in it somehow or another, or you watch the World Cup and it's fun. Now everything is just so wrought with this tension that is brought by, okay, some bloke in a shipping container outside of the stadium with a TV monitor is saying, no, sorry, that's not a goal. when 40 ,000 people have all just, you know, had this massive kind of serotonin lift that just gets completely sapped away from them straight away. And I know this all sounds like quite like, oh, well, get over it. But that's not how it works, is it? Like the whole sort of beauty of this sport, of football, is that emotional through line to all of it.
28:02Jack:And this just keeps, this just keeps razoring through it constantly that it's so hard to like keep that momentum going game to game, even minute to minute during a match itself. When you're so up and down, your emotions are so up and down in such a unnatural fashion. It's, I don't know. I just, I think it's, I really think on an existential level for football, it's terrible. I think it like I know we sort of spoke about it in these terms in a in a perhaps this is going to be really bad for football when we first started using it a bit more what five six however many years ago it is now but I really do feel like we're arriving at a point where it's it's actively just so bad for the game I see so many people from so many different clubs regardless of what how their clubs or fortunes are playing out on the field.
28:58Jack:I see so many people saying like that they just don't really enjoy football that much anymore and I know I sort of joke about it and I know we had a joke about it when you were last on about preferring the darts but we were saying that weren't we are like last night you switched the darts on after having watched the football and you almost feel like lifted it feels like there's a certain lightness that overcomes you because it's just it's quite simple you're just enjoying the ebb and flow of a sport right you're just enjoying watching it play out you're enjoying the emotional peaks and troughs that come as a natural occurrence of the sport being played not oh no no no actually we're gonna have to stop this and wait for five minutes and watch some people draw like this minuscule line on that as a judge someone's kneecap is offside what the fuck are we doing you know i just i don't get it mate i don't i don't get it and people revert back to saying well it's about the money isn't it why i don't understand like i i I honestly do not understand the justification for this stupid fucking system being in place anymore.
30:02Jack:It's really starting to bother me. And we won yesterday. Do you know what I mean? We still won. I'm not bemoaning as having lost as a result of VAR. And VAR has done us a solid in plenty of occasions. But if we were, I would imagine if there was a referendum on it, it would be an overwhelming amount of people would say, bend it off, get rid of it. And I really feel like the footballing authorities do need to listen to fans and do something about it because I see next to nobody, next to nobody. I'm talking about from people from the proper football man mouth breathers to the holier than thou, I don't appreciate football on an emotional level, I just whatever types.
30:45Jack:Most people seem to be agreed that VAR is net bad. so I just again I beg the question what are we doing here yeah do you want to hear my tinfoil
30:56Phil:hat take on it please I beg you because this you know the ability to look at a replay has been you know since football's been televised right how about that this has quietly been introduced because they're so concerned about betting syndicates and just dodgy bent football going on and you know that sounds like a again a wobble-headed take but there's there's no sense to bring it in otherwise right it's just as you say it's just completely removed the one selling point that was good and pure about football and that was the kind of the idea that any moment a goal could go in and your emotion spike but you know as i said the reality is that that emotion spike isn't as high as it used to be because we're now we're now in the back of my mind being like oh it's um you might get called off you might get called off
31:48Jack:but i what i don't get it though mate tell me to spell it out to me more plainly than that as a moron why is why is it the betting syndicates well because the betting syndicates were sorry no
32:01Phil:it's to to combat the betting syndicates so that they're so worried about all these kind of um dodgy um match fixings going on that they needed to introduce another layer of scrutiny as to what the wider decisions were being made again now i'm saying that it's obviously not the case but i'm just it's well it could be i i do sort of know what you mean because it was becoming
32:23Jack:a more prevalent thing wasn't it you're starting to see more and more footballers and stuff getting involved in these type of things and we'd always sort of heard anecdotally that there were these shady syndicates that were fixing ratches and stuff um but then it did the the thing for me is with VAR surely that makes it more open to abuse if you've got human beings still behind the behind the wheel of this of of of this system um I don't know well yeah again it probably doesn't
32:54Phil:stand up to any scrutiny but it's just it's more of a point about it's just absolutely no no reason for it to be included suddenly VAR it's fun to say though as well isn't it I like just gives us the idea of a conspiracy gives us some idea that that there's some control over something rather than just it all going to shit atlantis they play football in atlantis you know
33:15Jack:which is antarctica i saw something the other day saying that they found pyramids on antarctica and then if you actually google search it you'll see like pretty much every five six or seven years there's that same story that comes up they found pyramids on antarctica now right have they or is it just a rock that's shaped like a triangle you know in it because they did they obviously didn't
33:36Phil:It's a YouTube thumbnail clip again, isn't it?
33:39Jack:Yeah, that's what it is. So Ali Gold has said that there's some talk that Vinay Venkatesham acknowledges that Spurs need to lift their wage cap in order to attract the biggest stars to Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. We've obviously just had a chat about Adam Wharton there.
34:02Jack:This is being heralded in some corners as great and ambitious move from Spurs, I sort of see it as, isn't that par for the course? And again, I know it's good that they're doing it. Don't get me wrong. If they are doing it, it's good that they are. But that's the least that they should be doing, isn't it? Considering the cost of going to watch Spurs, considering the stature of the club now, the stadium, all that type of stuff. it's not really befitting of us to be scrimping around the sort of bargain basement constantly is it looking for players who will accept it sounds ludicrous saying it out loud but accept 125 grand a week or whatever when you know the top players are all on quarter of a million a week which look you can have your thoughts on whether that's good or not but that's the state of the game isn't it right now?
34:59Phil:Yeah I mean it is par but as you say we've been operating below par for so long that um it's again it's a positive right it's doing the things that the easy wins like i spoke about last week i think about you know seeing sections all that kind of thing just sorting out the things that daniel levy for whatever reason you know financially commercially ego whatever didn't want to do and now we're just kind of taking those um um you know taking the reins off and just you know allowing us to compete it's unfortunate you know i think all of us would prefer a game that football that had wasn't sort of um saturated with so much money and it costs so much but that is what the game is so if you're going to compete then you just have to kind of you know if you can't beat them join them we obviously can't beat them so um yeah a positive yeah i mean quite how that kind of puts us into the um you know the upper echelon of things remains to be seen but we've just fallen so far behind and let other other teams get the jump on that we need to do something immediately.
36:01Phil:So yeah, a good sign.
36:02Jack:I mean, it is quite mad, isn't it? That we've been sort of bemoaning for years Tottenham's transfer windows and the fear of Kane going or Lloris going or Vertonghen, Alder-Ruel, all those players slowly going and us not replacing them sufficiently. And getting to a place where that entire team has gone now other than Ben Davis who is a bit part player, is probably going to become a coach at the club or something similar to that. And we find ourselves in a position where we're really not very good. I mean, it quite simply is Daniel Levy's legacy, isn't it? Like, we've got such a juxtaposition here where we've got a bottom half Premier League team playing in the greatest stadium in the country by some people's metrics, if you know what I mean.
37:01Jack:That is a clear, you know, that's a clear kind of dichotomy as to what it is that we are right now, isn't it?
37:09Phil:It is, yeah. And I think it is worth constantly saying that, that this is what Daniel Levy's legacy is. You know, the fact that we had the team that we had, we let it fall apart. And now afterwards is only when we're kind of deciding to do the things that we should have done before, which would have given us a better chance to actually reach that higher echelon you know Kane and Son etc adding to that squad to kind of um properly compete you know I mean I think it's worth saying as well that a lot of this um these kind of business decisions or the kind of the direction that ownership is now taking it does feel a little bit like oh well we're just going to blame everything on Daniel Levy now which is fine you know as long as it gets us to where we need to do but again you know it is still technically the same people owning us so i'll take it with a pinch of salt that it's kind of um you know until i see some proper um evidence of them doing the things that we want them to do but um yeah i mean as you say it is it is levy's it is levy's legacy you know he he spoke about it just a couple of weeks on that interview with gary gary neville wasn't it where he talked about people were missing once or you know how people will feel about him once he's gone but we'll see won't we i mean if the kind of the measures that he put in place or the restrictions that he put in place held us back then speaks for itself doesn't
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40:01Jack:you and i sean walsh wrote a piece talking about spurs no longer being a part of the big six um and i know again like these sort of terms are all fairly nebulous they're terms that sky sports themselves have created right um and it it does get people's backs up it gets the backs up of other clubs you know like your villas your newcastles your everton spurs part of the big six and quite simply it is generally i mean for the for the past few years anyway i mean not the past few years but over the past decades we say spurs literally have been the fourth or fifth best team in the country pretty regularly so it stands to reason that we would be considered part of this so-called big six if you like but outside of that the amount of money we generate year on year again firmly puts us within that window but i guess to sean's point you know sort of what we're talking about here that spurs of you watch villa you watch villa now you watch them against arsenal the other week you watch them against chelsea on the weekend you watch them against anybody the the way they knock the ball about, the sort of energy and intensity that they play with, brilliantly technical players all over the field, all seemingly playing with hunger, all playing with energy.
41:18Jack:I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, that was us. That was us. And now it's not us. And we are a million miles off of that. We're sort of talking about wanting to catch up again with Arsenal. Behave, you know? There's teams like Villa who are just light years ahead of us right now. But what do you think? Do you think we have the bones here whereby, forget Pochettino or forget our manager, just say our manager comes in who we all agree is good and we like and will play aggressive football and progressive football and all the things that we want from a manager. Do you think the bones are here for Spurs to be in a season's time, in two seasons' time, to be playing football more in the fashion that we're seeing from a team like Villa.
42:10Jack:From Newcastle previously, I mean, Newcastle have fallen. Not a lot has been made of that as well, which irritates me, but Newcastle have fallen off pretty drastically this season. But you would say that for the past few years, they've been playing at a certain level that we were prior to that.
42:28Phil:I mean, to be fair to Newcastle, mate, They did lose to Liverpool once in the 90s, so they get a pass, all right? This guy. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, what was your question? Talking about, yeah, how close we are to kind of...
42:42Jack:Just how far off do you think we are from that? Is it a couple of transfer windows? Is it a wholesale overhauling of the squad? I mean, it's sort of hard to see the wood for the trees, if you like, with Spurs right now, because we never seem to get any consistency, do we?
42:58Phil:No, we don't. And to use your analogy, I don't think we have the bones of it. I think we have some gallbladders and pancreases and stuff, which are useful in the body. Entrails. Some stuff, but we don't have the spine of it. I don't think we're anywhere close to having that. And that's a big kind of problem. Yeah, we've got kind of decent centre-backs and wing-backs and everywhere else really. I know we've got players out and stuff, but I see it all as like massively upgradable. So if we're thinking about that, then yes, you know, we need to make some signings in January to kind of just get the momentum going, but it's going to be two, three, four windows before I think we're anywhere close, unless we do absolute madness in the summer, which we won't because it's a well cut.
43:49Phil:So we're a long, long way off, in my opinion, of getting anywhere close to having the sort of solidity and depth that someone like Villa has. And people were talking about catching Arsenal. We're only catching Arsenal when they drop off and we're on the up. They'll meet us halfway. Again, that's not to be kind of doom-mongering. I think we've got some really good young players, but Bergvold and Gray, they're both 19. They've got four or five years before they're going to be anywhere near to peaking or even starting to peak. right so um so yeah i i'm fortunate i just i just i just think we're we're so far off which is why i've kind of flipped my expectations about let's just win some games at the moment
44:32Jack:any win is a good win and we're sort of back to where we started aren't we um it's it's difficult because you don't want to be sort of doom and gloom about this and i do wonder if if we will find a place like do i mean do you think you will personally hit a place where if we continue to be this bad for a few years that your brain will just will just sort of naturally reshuffle itself and just kind of think well that's what we are now that's what spurs are because i like i know a lot of the conversation was like the pochettino era was the toothpaste out the tube we came so close to achieving like the top glittering prizes and didn't and that's where the expectation that's where the bar has been set now but it just seems year on year all the more like and i'm talking i'm talking about like quite genuinely there was a there was a a not insignificant amount of time i would say at least two to three seasons where we were all sat here wondering if we might be able to win the Premier League and now that just seems so distant a fantasy to me it's it's not even funny so I'm I guess I'm just wondering if already my brain is starting to reassess what it is that Spurs are and what we can expect and what we should be aiming for.
46:10Jack:You know, are we the club, like I was sort of saying at the top, are we the club anymore that can go for the Adam Whartons? Are we the club anymore that can ask Julian Nagelsmann to be our manager? You know, because we also, we have these sort of lofty ideas. Thomas Frank is not a Tottenham Hartsburg manager. This guy is not good enough for us. I mean, what if he is? like maybe that's maybe that's the truth that they're staring us in the face that we don't want to accept you know we sort of consider these managers this style of football as being beneath us as being the sort of thing you know Everton having Sean Dyche in charge and all that type of stuff but what if quite simply we actually are that club right now you know yeah I mean it's
46:53Phil:entirely possible that our you know we've we've we have peaked and we're kind of you know still got some way to go i don't mean about going down but i mean some proper like fallow period of a few seasons rather than just you know one or one and a half like we're in at the moment but i would also say that money solves a lot of this as well money changes expectations the fact that we're gonna if we spend and we spend well you know this idea that adam wartham wouldn't come to spurs yeah probably true yeah probably got his agent saying hang on for you know there's probably bigger clubs but if suddenly we're starting to spend money and looking like a good prospect that that would change as well so it's cynical but again that's just what football is so yeah potentially you know if daniel levy was still in charge and or you know there was issues with our finances and we knew we couldn't spend because of you know something change with the stadium or whatever then yeah but i think that we we're actually as i say we're about to kind of take those restrictions away so it could um fix things but again it's just going to take it's still even then it's going to take time but in terms of kind of my mindset you do wonder don't you whether you where you've tasted it or you've got so close to it that do you have the i guess patience it's not bottle and it's not you know it's not anything like that but when when life starts becoming repetitive or when things become repetitive or you know stuff like that you do just tend to lose interest right so you know do do i have another cycle in me like this i mean probably yeah because there's no getting out of it but yeah whether it changes my kind of overall um interest in it is remains to be seen but um but yeah my point is here i think that whilst it's going to take a few transfer windows before we properly rebuild our squad i do think that the money is there and the kind of the direction can change i also sort of feel like
48:49Jack:just getting pochettino back would give everything a massive lift i do yeah like i think football is quite simple in in many ways and i think having a largely enthusiastic stadium singing he's magic you know will give everyone a lift um seeing a guy come back and talk about all the great memories he's had and he wants to go that one step further will give everyone a lift i think a guy who knows the club knows the premier league knows uniquely how the fan base thinks how how we are positioned like in this country uh in this country um jack nicholson how we how we are positioned he just he just he knows so much about it and i get the whole never go back thing but that's just an that's just an expression it's just an arbitrary thing that people just parrot like there's more to that than just oh you never go back do you well you never walk under ladders do you why not don't know someone said you don't do it it's just like so what i don't i don't care if his bloke was our manager before we all know it ended in a sort of strange way and i don't really buy either that he's been absolutely useless since he left spurs he started to turn chelsea around they were a team that were on the up again under his sort of stewardship he won the league with psg do you know i mean he achieved what he was supposed to do there like you know i've just getting back yeah just getting back because i just think he's i think he'd be the right person for the job right now where we're at i'm not saying we're going to go on and win the champions league got something with him I mean he'll probably have me believing we can do that but he'll speak yeah
50:37Phil:he'll speak some of that stuff into existence so that's the point isn't it where you've got kind of someone like Thomas Frank like we've said just like negging the club and negging the position keeping expectations low and not really kind of going to bat for us really you know he's very meekly kind of pointed out the but the shove on Romero against Liverpool and stuff like that but didn't make a huge song and dance about someone like Clop would right Pochettino is more that and I think that's what we need. As you say, whether it's like a long-term five, 10-year contract or whatever, I just feel like, especially with this kind of reformed ownership model, getting him in and getting everyone kind of pulling in the right direction with, as you say, someone who actually knows what Spurs is about and knows the kind of tricky situation, tricky position we find ourselves in, in the media and within the rest of the league.
51:25Phil:Someone who gets it, someone who's going to come out to bat for us is sorely what we need.
51:28Jack:plus you know who else is there you see uh Brentford are eighth in the league now yeah
51:35Phil:yeah um I haven't paid much attention to them um it could be that they're just one of those teams that plays everyone at the right time um I mean we beat them so that's that's a big black mark against their name um but you know who did they slap the other day Bournemouth Bournemouth have absolutely been quietly terrible god they really are actually they absolutely slapped us up but or a couple of weeks after that yeah just quietly just completely sunk um no one talks about that though do they no they don't no um because no one cares so is it better to no one care about you or you know to get criticized every week like we do um probably the former but um but yeah so
52:21Jack:I've got to say I'm just looking at I'm just looking at the Premier League now mate we're four points off the fifth place Chelsea like the league is an absolute shambles this season isn't it like it really is go on here
52:37Phil:I'll just say is it good or is it good and competitive or is it just really bad and inconsistent I can't work it out probably the latter isn't it
52:47Jack:But if you've seen we're top of the away wins table, you'll never sing that. Ironic, isn't it? Have you actually? Yeah, top of the table, top of the league, Spurs, which is, yeah, an interesting one. I don't know, mate. I don't know. I don't know. I still love this football club, you know? I just want it to be exciting again, you know? Yeah, that's it.
53:13Phil:You just want to feel like there's some direction and things and you can therefore kind of um see through things through that prism right at the moment it's just like well we won but we played really didn't there wasn't any kind of idea of what we were doing or why we were doing it it's a very you know sometimes you get those in in isolation right those kind of gritty performances that things don't work you still win and that's fine but when when that's the norm it just doesn't give you anything to kind of hang your hat on so yeah who are we got Brentford again right on New Year's Day yeah and we've got a few on paper anyway some sort of kind fixtures coming up so
53:54Jack:hopefully our February is horrible yeah yeah
53:58Phil:but then you know yeah again hopefully we just get some wins get some wins and then that'll hopefully breed
54:05Jack:something oh the fixtures coming thick and fast yeah Brentford on the first, Sunderland on the fourth, Bournemouth on the seventh, Villa FA Cup coming up on the Saturday. Then there's a bit of a break. Is there an international break or something? Or is it just quite simply that they don't know. Jan is mental though. Yeah. Villa, West Am, Dortmund, Burnley, Frankfurt. A lot of games. It's a lot of games. It's a lot of podcasts. You're going to be hearing a lot of my voice in the coming month you're looking forward to that aren't you yeah but then february is city manu newcastle arsenal yeah that's our that's our february um it's that's no different to them we're bad against
54:53Phil:everyone so there's no point being you know we'll probably just sit back and hit those teams on the break and everyone will be fine we'll beat city yeah we'll slap city and get done in by arsenal Newcastle we could beat them again as you say they're quietly terrible who was the other one?
55:11Jack:Man U
55:12Phil:Man United who knows what state Man United will be
55:15Jack:Champions of Europe off the back of their mugs so you know what I mean
55:22Jack:time to watch the darts mate I think
55:25Phil:oh lovely oh that cheered me right up
55:27Jack:exactly thank you very much Phil that's okay jack i uh hope this was a semi cathartic chat for you i feel like it was um i don't like var much don't know if you picked that up but i still ultimately am happy that spurs got three points on the weekend so there we go that's good why don't you do a little
55:56Phil:animation about VAR. Get it right at your system. Get little cartoons.
56:02Jack:One of them.
56:02Phil:Silly voices.
56:03Jack:Little flappy head cartoons. Well you can help me think of an idea.
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57:13Jack:So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues, and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.
From the publisher
Jack is joined by Phil to discuss the 1-0 win away at Crystal Palace.
We explore why so many Spurs fans feel unhappy despite the result and debate the current mood of the fanbase. We ask the difficult questions about the style of play: are we seeing the progress we want, and where can we find the glimmers of hope that we are building towards something bigger?
There is also an impassioned discussion about VAR. What is it taking from the game, who is it serving, and is it hampering the pure joy of football?
Finally, we react to the big news from Alasdair Gold that Vinai Venkatesham is set to lift the wage ceiling at Spurs. We discuss if this is the game-changer the club needs to attract a higher calibre of player, and whether we are currently in a position to lure that elite talent to N17.
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