The Great Romero Debate, Tonali Shines & Tottenham's Youth Dilemma

31:19Because you are in quite, you know, you're just in the middle of the park. You've got a lot of work to do and you have to be careful. So I'm like watching out for that. Because you get quite clad a few times by Hoffenheim, right?

31:32Jack:Yeah, I mean, he got platted mostly. Who was at Getafe? That player left one on him and he wasn't having any of that at all. We've had a bit of that in our, I mean, I guess people probably say that's just kind of what happens in these behind-closed-doors games. They're all competitive athletes. You hear about fights breaking out between teammates and stuff in these games. That's what I want to see. Well, okay. Yeah, if we're going to do it, just show me, show me. Let's see it all. Let's see it all. Remember back in the day, all the sort of the speculation about Eka Davids and Robbie Keane having a punch-up and all that sort of thing?

32:07I don't remember that at all. but I can fully I can fully visualise it

32:12Jack:that was like the talker message boards back in the day oh well I mean I support Edgar whatever he chose to do whoever he chose to throw a punch at he's one of those players I sort of forget he played for Spurs sometimes you know even though it was massive but he was obviously at the tail end yeah he was over the hill at that point but he was still really good you know it's kind of to the point we were making about Tonali somebody like Davids came in and you were like right yeah he's still really talented. Oh, this is how they're supposed to do it. Yeah, exactly. You know, that's how proper footballers look kind of thing.

32:44Jack:Even like a one-legged Bale when he came in on loan right at the very end, you know. You just go, oh, they know what they're doing. Do you know, back on my talk at the top, that's one thing I won't forgive Jose Mourinho for actually, was him not being able to get over the fact he was no longer the main event at Tottenham. And I will defy anybody that says it was anything other than that. Oh, do you think that's what it was? I do. That makes a lot of sense actually. because it's the one thing I've never been able to work out. I'm like, why did you not want to play Gareth Bale, who still could score loads and loads and loads of goals that we obviously needed?

33:17And it was like, because it was the West Ham game, wasn't it? And then he just went, I'm not doing this anymore. It's very weird. I'm not going to try and play football anymore at all.

33:27Jack:Let's not go back. No, it's not. Let's just... Let's move forward. We are moving forward into the future with purpose. like Matias Fernandez as well played in the behind closed doors game also looked unbelievable we haven't seen probably enough of him in preseason to have a you know great idea as to where he's at he's been carrying a bit of a knock or something what we do know though is that he's an exceptional player I am very very very excited about seeing Tonale and Fernandez playing alongside one another because I feel there you've got the platform for if it's Gallagher playing ahead of them if it's Kulishevsky, if it's Madison, I think any of those players are going to do all right when you have two players at the quality of them behind them.

34:09Jack:Which, it's kind of mad when we do talk about it, and I know it happened really early on in the transfer window, and we've had a lull since in terms of our outlays, but we have completely rebuilt our midfield. You know, like completely rebuilt it. I would say, I don't know if you've seen it, I think it's Sky Sports, there's a graphic doing the rounds at the moment, basically saying which is the best midfielder in the Premier League right now and Tottenham's is on there now you know like with those two heading it up and you just kind of think that's kind of mental because that doesn't look out of place either but like imagine if because obviously because it was done so early and then we haven't really seen them and everyone's gone oh god we really need some forwards we've got to score some goals but I think being reminded of how good those two players are and how good they're going to be together like if it actually works it's going to be absolutely amazing man isn't it I mean the best really yeah um no I'm not I'm not going to start plotting the sort of the nightmare stuff about if bigger clubs come circling let's just enjoy Tottenham winning the league let's enjoy it but but what do you think this means for like the ensemble cast behind these two because we've got we've got Ben Tenker there doesn't seem like there's any links for him to go everything we've heard from Deserby is that he wants him about the place.

35:29Jack:See also Papsar, Lucas Bergfell, there's been, you know, a bit of back and forth. Maybe Forrest are being linked, maybe they haven't been. He is maybe unhappy, maybe not. Deserby's made his position quite clear, but they're still playing him. He still looked good against Offenheim the other day. Archie Gray's in there as well. I mean, what happens? I mean, I know injuries happen, so that's one thing let's hope they don't but what do you sort of make of that that group of players that we have how we keep them happy how we use them I think we can sort of take away we can take away Archie from that don't we because he's obviously going to be he's going to be playing isn't he one way or the other I think not every game but like he will be part of it and especially now we've sold Jed he's going to have to slot in a right back because no way is Porro going to be able to I mean maybe he will maybe Porro will play every single game I would be surprised and also just the fact that Archie was like captain the other day.

36:23I think that's fine. Like he's obviously got a place one way or the other. The others are sort of, I'm really surprised that Benton Corr is still around. Because to my mind, that feels like a sort of, that to me is like a player that you would, as much as I've liked him, it sort of feels like his time has also come to an end. Do you not think? like why are we we can't be gearing up for like another I mean I guess we are it just seems surprising to me but then I guess the other players are not so technical maybe maybe that's

36:59Jack:the key I also think it might be one of those things it just comes down to Deserby wanting a certain type of mentality as well in there a bit of an older head somebody that's probably a bit of a gammon for one of the way of putting it you know like I just think he's probably happy if Ben Tanker is happy to be there to sort of fill in as and when needed yeah he's happy to take it easy because he's had a succession of serious knee injuries and everything then I guess everyone's probably happy all around I would imagine he's he's probably fairly well played at the paid at the club but not one of the highest earners so if it's one of those kind of you know if he's like the Ben Davis of the midfield somebody that can fill in and do a job like we saw him do at the end of last year, then maybe he's just happy with that.

37:46It's just odd, isn't it? I find it odd as well.

37:48Jack:I do. Because you could see him going to wherever, someone like Etafé or whatever, right? Like, definitely, I think. You could see AC Milan or somebody, right? I don't know how I'm from. I think it's just one of those weird things, isn't it? Like, the sort of trajectory of a player's career so often doesn't work out the way you think it's going to. Like, when Benton Kord joined us, and he was absolutely amazing. And to my mind, I was like, that's it. He's like Dembele reborn. He's going to drive us forward. He will be the sort of linchpin. And then he got that terrible ACL. And he's never really been the same.

38:22But even so, and then I just thought...

38:24Jack:Because he got another one immediately after, didn't he? Exactly. He came back from it and then it went again. And then, and he didn't really recover. But even with that, he still came back and was like quite a vital part of like the Europa League. And then, you know, helped, was really like a, like he basically helped save us from relegation as well. So it's like all of these sort of weird kind of moment flashpoints. But I just wouldn't have thought he would be the kind of player. Like, how has he already got to this point of his Tottenham career where it's like, well, you can just kind of stick around and be a sort of sensible, like, Ben Davis-style backup.

38:57Do you know what I mean? That's just not what we ever thought he was going to be. He's 29. Yeah, exactly. So there's loads more. Like, for other players, they would just be like, see, I'm going to go and, like, actually play every week. but maybe I don't know maybe he would just really miss Hotspur away who can say I think I would be quite sad if he left even though I do I'm a bit surprised he's staying but I guess with the others it's really it's Bergvall and Saar isn't it and I don't I don't know about those two. Bergvall will

39:25Jack:get more money for that's probably why there's been more talk about it yeah um I think he probably represents you know somebody with a greater sell on value but it feels like the club aren't the club in a rush to get rid of him. I think they would accommodate him going, but equally, they're not going to be selling him like they have done Romero or Spence, I don't think. It seems to be pretty clear that they want upwards of 60 mil for him and they're not really going to budge on that again. This is ITK and stuff, but from everything we've seen, the conversations we've had with other clubs, Forest or whoever, they've all hit this roadblock, which you'd imagine is Tottenham's valuation, which I think is kind of fair enough.

40:06Jack:We spent 30-odd mil on him, didn't we, when he was 16, 17 years old? I don't know. Maybe he was a bit older than that. Might have been about 18. But even still, he's clearly a very talented young player like you. I agree. I think the main thing is whenever I talk about anybody from this sort of previous era of Tottenham, basically anybody before De Zerbe came in, there's none of them that I'd be upset if they left. To be quite honest, there are players I certainly have affection for. There are players I have a fondness for. but it's been such a just despicable couple of years at Tottenham it really has been that if we won a trophy it literally hasn't been a despicable I know do you know what no that literally the experience of it week by week has been horrendous that's it I know what you mean I don't think I think there's a couple of players where I would be genuinely very very sad but I am a bit surprised I think my overriding feeling about Bergvau is that he's a child and children shouldn't get to say where they go.

41:06And so if he's like kicking up a fuss, I'm like, you have to stay.

41:09Jack:It worked for Vyscovic, to be fair. It did, but I was very against that as well. Yeah. I mean, it looks like if you go on Brighton Twitter now, they're already going on about him. So fine, we made the right choice. What as in... And if we didn't and they sell him on for 100 mil, great. We've got like 20, 30 % of that or something mad. Are they critical of him? I heard that there was a bit of a like, is he not what we thought we were getting? Yeah, basically that. Good, good. Like, oh, he is actually really slow and immobile, isn't he? But he is also a kid, isn't he? He is a kid and I should not take pleasure in this.

41:43But he's also a footballer who left my club, so I do. Sorry.

41:48Jack:Let me put this one to you because here's another interesting one. We're talking about transfers and we're talking about players in there. Tell and Moore were both really good against Hoffenheim. Tell provided a couple assists, one which was particularly good for Mikey Moore. Mikey Moore with two decent finishes getting into the right place. I mean the second finish was actually very good as well. There was a lot of talk of Moore going out on loan this summer. That's never really materialized. Whether that's because Spurs actually want him about the place or not, nobody really knows. How do you sort of feel about those two?

42:19Jack:And I guess throwing back to our sort of conversation about Gakpo and Savino, are you comfortable with the idea of Tottenham spending money on those two or any other new wingers and it perhaps blocking the pathway for the likes of Tellemore? maybe even a luke williams barnett but we'll talk about him in a bit like this is where i get like completely undone i'm properly that like sweating guy meme um like which button do i press yeah because i'm like i want these new guys in because i have so many concerns i'm like we need to score some goals guys like we've got to do it we can't just i'm like i'm if i if our like midfield is really good and our defense is better great um we're not gonna be able to win any games if we don't score goals but like I like I've loved Matisse Tell since like the day he showed up yeah and he I like as I've said like I just like I always need somebody that I'm just gonna love like unreservedly and all the good things I do I'm like amazing that's my guy and if they do like less good stuff I'm like it doesn't matter doesn't count didn't see it didn't happen so and like he is that for me and I don't want anybody getting in his way it would be very very concerning and upsetting for me because I do think he is so talented and I loved those assists and it seems like he has been like one of the stars of preseason I know you can't really go on that um and you shouldn't but I would be so disappointed if like I've been waiting for him to have his year and I really really really want it to be this year when we're actually going to play like some properly good football so I don't want anybody to get in the way with Mikey Moore I feel slightly differently because he is still really young so while and I've sort of moved away from this kind of like you've got to get the kids in as early as possible I think it's okay to take for them to take their time because he is what is he even he's like he's 18 now is he 19 now Mikey Moore okay 19 all right so he's not like only just turned 19 though so like Technically, I think I'd like to see him stay, but I wouldn't be devastated if a grown-up forward came in and that meant he had to go out on loan.

44:37I think that'd be all right. I think that's the way I would split it. I want to see Matisse-Tel play loads this season, but I'm not.

44:48Jack:This probably isn't going to be the most popular take. And look, this is off the back of just a pre-season game and everything. I would say from, I did go to the game and I would say from where I was sat, like Mikey Moore, very, very impressive to get those two goals. Just my personal sort of feeling on it is partly just kind of like a bit of a proper football man feeling in me waters type thing. But also just from kind of, I just don't think he's quite there. I don't think he's quite there to be somebody I'd fully trust to start a Premier League season for Tottenham. like I do like him I really hope it does come good for him but he is still very young if he gets another season under his belt playing like Bundesliga football which is one of the best leagues on the face of the planet right I know people are always going to make that comparison to the Premier League and all that type of thing but really to be a little Englander about it nothing's close to the Premier League really anymore so Bundesliga is a good league it'll be a good experience for him I would quite like to see him develop a bit more probably develop more than get more game time than Spurs will probably be able to give him this year.

45:58Jack:Because I wouldn't, I would just say, just my gut feeling is I wouldn't feel entirely comfortable Tottenham starting the season with him as opposed to us signing somebody else, somebody more senior than him. You can't have both, can you? That's the thing. I would love to see him come on if we had Europa League or if we decide to play a weekend side in the League Cup or something like that. great I'd love to see Mikey Moore get all those kind of minutes but I don't think he wants that right now I think he wants to be playing football all the time and I don't think he's ready for that at Tottenham to be honest um Tell Tell is still a player that's in development but I think he's further along the line than than Mikey Moore and like you I I just I fall on the side of the fence where I really like Tell and I choose to see like yes he's definitely not the the finished article right now not everything he does is great but i feel like the things he is trying to do if and when they start coming off we will be like see he's threatened to do that for ages he's those kind of like when he cuts inside and whips in those shots and they start going in then you're gonna be like oh great right nice this is it now we've got a player that can do that after sonny you know it's it's i know i'm not saying he's going to be as good as son i'm just too late you said it i know i i like tell i think he's i think he's decent um i think he's really good and yeah i think he's been really exciting in this pre-season as i keep saying um i think it was john bassett said it first and foremost that like had we signed tell this summer and he's had this pre-season we would all be buzzing we'd be absolutely buzzing but we were still buzzing when we bought him from by munich just a couple of years ago you know like but i also think what we've seen what we obviously haven't seen like the full range of his quality but what we have seen is mentality like he has been in the trenches with us and he never ran away and i know and maybe that's my like proper football man nonsense but i like i sincerely i just think there's like two things really that like sort the the wheat from the chaff isn't it in terms of like like top footballers the men from the boys exactly exactly so really that's actually a more accurate phrase um and one of them is decision making which he doesn't really have consistently yet and that's what like the best players do and and all sports people really you see it like across every single sport like the ones who've really got it they're the ones who make the right decision in the right moment and the other but the other thing is mentality and they just keep showing up and they always fight and they're always and the thing is with tell from the very beginning he's always tried to make something happen like always and even if we haven't seen like all of the skill like i like i think that will come like i fully fully believe it whereas yeah we just we don't know yet with mikey do we like when people have arguments like when people have arguments about like tell versus odobet i couldn't i couldn't really believe there was anyone who was coming down on the other side of that argument yeah plenty of time if he ever returns from his ACL.

49:14Jack:Defence looked good against Hoffenheim as well. Kinski was sublime. Kinski looked like a young Larissa that could kick, which was encouraging. Van Hecker was just very solid, very good. I'm very, very excited about him, if I'm brutally honest. Marcos Sanessi was good. He was very good. He seemed like a very solid, reliable, he's like made this sort of headed clearance at one point I was like that's what I want to see and that's the kind of thing that like we did not see enough of for the last like three years I think just somebody being in the right place at the right time I think the defense was good I think I do feel like we were still quite vulnerable at points better in the second half I would say but there were moments where I just thought they are opening us up here and maybe that's just preseason and people were not concentrating enough but it did give me slight heebie-jeebies I would say.

50:18Jack:We got Robertson in there who gave an assist. I think he's going to especially if we get somebody else that can finish chances in the box. Robertson could come away with a number of assists this year. But look Jed Spencer's gone. Do you think we need to invest in even more defenders, more defensive options? I mean this is why I was massively against that sale I mean I just to me the whole thing was madness I didn't really understand how you could have someone who is essentially like one of the sort of I mean maybe stars of the World Cup is a bit strong but certainly one of the stars of the like England team like an unexpected star of the England team um and that's our only that's also like our only player in the england side and i didn't it didn't make any sense to me to move him on except i guess from like a strictly business perspective which fine that's what they did um and i suppose for him like i'm not mad that he's gone to inter that's nice for him but i feel like it just ended up being that's given them like more work to do like do they want to just go into the season with Archie as a backup right back like I guess and is but also even it's like left back is that okay because how often is like is how often is destiny gonna play are we not gonna like I know we've got Andy Robertson now is that gonna be enough I don't know it all still feels a bit tenuous on the flanks I'm not convinced I understand why they did it from like a financial perspective but i feel like i don't know maybe we can make it like half a season and they'll have to go back in for right back it seems slightly foolhardy yeah i don't really yeah like like you i didn't want spencer to go um i think this is kind of one of those where i'm sort of happy to just be a bit of a you know sheep about it and just say if it's what the manager wants i'm fine you know just just that's true because i can't bother to argue everything you know I know like what might sometimes I know I know it might sometimes seem like I do but you know the older I get the less asked I can be and it's like look Jad Spence I really liked him I fell down the side of like I really like him and I can see why some people feel like it was perhaps a good time to cash in on him and and I don't I don't overly disagree with all of those reasons but I think like with most things in life and in football most of us are just essentially building a case for something that we feel emotionally if you get what I mean we might build up a lot of data around it but at the root of most of these things is is an emotional decision do I like this player or don't I kind of thing and I liked Jed Spence I liked his versatility and that is definitely going to be something we're gonna gonna need to replace I know we've been linked with Forrest's Nico Williams but that's Maranakis again and you know who knows who knows where that one goes from there so look you know I don't I don't I don't really know what Spurs do to me it does feel like we are a little short it feels like we're sort of you know we're well stacked with centre-backs but unless like you say Mickey plays left back he didn't really do that very well for the Netherlands is that something we want to rely upon I don't know I don't know um but we'll see I guess just one quick one in the last day or two Vicario's gone gone to Juventus on loan no option to buy no obligation to buy I should say there is an option to buy if they should wish not asked about that personally speaking I think he's an awful goalkeeper if I'm brutally honest the club are obviously backing Anton Kinski to be our number one I think he has been brilliant I think he was an absolute revelation at the tail end of last season one of the reasons why we probably stayed up I guess it's just that little perhaps amber flag somewhere in the back of my head that's like what if he is actually out of his depth though what if he is too young and that becomes abundantly clear five games into the season for example is Martin Dubravka a serviceable enough backup to rely on if Kinski does struggle do you think?

54:46I... I have more confidence, not necessarily in Kinski, but I think things will just be more secure ahead of him. And I think that makes a massive difference. I think if he had been behind, I don't know, you know, like the way we've played over the last few seasons, if he had been emerging at that point, I think it would have been like a massive, like it would have been a trial by fire. and I wouldn't have been surprised to have seen him sort of just, yeah, kind of crumble within that. Although, again, that said, like a kind of mentality monster, really, to come back from what happened against Alessico.

55:28So, and you know me, you know, like I love a redemption arc. I love all that. So I'm rooting for him. But so maybe he wouldn't. And I think just the fact that he did step up at the end of last season, like to be honest with you, any of those players who like properly put in a shift at the end of last season and helped drag us out of that, even though loads of them were obviously responsible for getting us into it in the first place. It doesn't really, Borkinski wasn't, but loads of them were. But anybody who like helped us get out of it, I'm like, fine. Like you are, I think there's something, there's something more there than I had originally thought.

56:01But I do think, so I think he will definitely make mistakes without getting or we will lose games. Like I'm sure that there are like howlers in his future. But I think we know now that he can come back from that. And so does he. like the worst thing has happened like literally the worst thing has happened

56:16Jack:on his Champions League debut he did a Loris Karius and he's gotten over it and now he's our first choice goalkeeper and it's not because we're like a joke it's because he's good so I think this is basically just me catastrophizing I think he looks really good ultimately I think he's really really exciting the fact he can actually play football is great. You know, it's everything that a goalkeeper needs in the modern game, especially when you're playing for something like... Yeah. Like, lovely. I don't want to see that again. Well, this is it. There are going to be these moments. There are going to be these heart and mouth moments and we are probably going to get caught out a couple of times, you know?

56:57Jack:It's just... Also, that is football. I was thinking about this, watching the Friendlies, thinking, oh man, this is so nice. It's so relaxing. I can't wait for football to be like properly back. And then I was like, but that's not, it's just not really how it is when football's really back it's actually loads of it's really horrible and stressful and every time the ball kind of comes back towards your goal it's just like a disgusting nightmare experience so when there's that break and you can hear the away end just like yeah getting all excited and you're like oh god but it's gonna be fine now because apparently like we've um deserby has like trashed the away dressing rooms oh has he apparently oh so now who's now who's spreading the itk i say i say this well listen that yeah i don't have a leg to stand on i tried to mount a defense of myself but i can't because again that's itk that i like and i can get behind because it's what i want to hear i want to hear someone do that because let's be honest we've made it like the experience at the stadium has been so comfy for away players and away fans we need that needs to stop no more no more craft beers no more pull pork or anything like that none of that just old stale sandwiches and cups of bovril you know we are going to close half the loos um yeah apparently there were like massage tables and tellies and stuff in the away dressing rooms like it's not it's not a party no we're doing what's going on genuinely so much of what's happened over the last few years can just be summed up by what are we doing i mean it's just so obvious like even even if you go down to like non-league the away dressing rooms are always like a horror show you know it's like like this is you are you are here to be uncomfortable yeah just very very basic stuff so yeah i'm looking forward to that um but yeah i do think i think kinski will be more confident because he he will have more security ahead of him and I think that'll make a massive difference.

59:01It won't just be like chaos ball.

59:03Jack:Let's hope so anyway. Yeah, I've said that really confidently. I don't know where else to tell you about. It's a really big shout. Let's see when Tonali and Fernandes both get injured on the first day of the season. That's definitely going to happen. When's Poro getting injured? No, just stop. We're not doing this. Also on the first game of the season. Of course. Just very quickly, Rosa, just to close things off, Luca Williams-Barnett again. Again, he's got everybody excited. The 17-year-old prodigal son of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club. Too young to go on loan or something. I'm not sure exactly what the reasons are, but we can't loan him out.

59:44Jack:Do you think he is one where we just have to break the sort of traditional development mold and give him first team minutes this season? He seems to want to be integrated. He feels like somebody that we will be very, very, very unhappy about if we lose him because we've not kept him happy. He seems like the type of talent that you maybe have to be told by a child what to do, maybe. You make a good argument, but this is my position, which is that I actually, and I think this should just apply across the board anyway, I don't think literal children should be playing first team football in in the top tier like i don't feel like i genuinely don't yeah yeah i agree i mean i do agree with that on a human level but the world the world is a cold dark horrible place um no i know look like just know like i think i'm just gonna have to stick with that i think if you're if he was 18 okay fine when does he turn 18 maybe no that's a terrible conversations have let's not do that um but he is a child and so he shouldn't he shouldn't be there tmz bit tmz there rosa i get the countdown timer going and everything just going back to just the worst of the 90s let's not let's not do that ever ever ever again yeah so sorry sorry luca sorry to just be like your mum about it but that's just you're not you're not allowed to play football with the grown-ups for a second i thought you were like insulting him then i think i know it did sound like that that's all i meant i mean i'm sorry to like be your mum yeah is that what is that going to be deserve his official position on it or yeah imagine yeah um rosa it's been an absolute pleasure as per you tell tell the adoring listeners of rule the roose podcast where if they don't already listen to you where can they listen to you where can they follow you in a virtual social media sense and such exactly come find me come adore me on hometown glory um where we just we chat spurs men spurs women and culture if that is your thing um i'm not really on social media very much anymore so don't find me there i don't like it's such good fun it's such good fun i know really i should i should just fully go back in yeah such a such a warm place what were you saying were you talking about players that they should man up earlier weren't you do that mean like just come on and deal with all that i say it here yeah have you are you excited just just quickly before i let you go are you excited about all the doomsday stuff that's coming out at the moment you know there's been that disney event thing i'm so there it's so it's so cynical but i'm just i'm there i will be there like not opening day and probably not even opening week let's be honest but i will be there at some point yeah i can't wait i'm quite up for it i you know you know my you know i have a an up-down relationship with the MCU, but I quite like all this Dooms.

1:02:48Jack:Mainly, I'll tell you why, mainly because X-Men, that's it. Oh, you're one of those. I am one of those. Yeah, yeah. I just want to see Steve Rogers again. Love him. Love Captain America. Just bring him back. I'm happy. Even if they bring him back and incinerate him immediately, as has been said, could be the case with many beloved characters of yesteryear. Yeah, I didn't really consider that. Thanks for that. Maybe I won't be there. Apparently, this is not going to be very nice, this first one, this Doomsday one. As surprising, a name like Doomsday. Well, it's true. The clue is in the name. I should have been paying attention.

1:03:30But as ever, I just get distracted for all the shiny things.

1:03:33Jack:That's it. That's it. Rosa, thank you very much, mate. A delight. Thank you. Thank you.