WORLD CUP DIGEST: Bellingham's Zidane Vibes, Media Stirring & Why I Hate The Argentina Fixture

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2:10Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the Rule the Roost World Cup Digest. there's not a lot to talk about as far as Spurs are concerned and everyone's a bit excited about the World Cup aren't they Gavin yeah good to be back on yeah and so so they should be I guess I have to say I'm still a little bit jaded from Saturday night I did watch the game with some friends we booked a like cabin in Epping sort of way um and we stayed up to watch the Argentina game afterwards as well and I'm just getting too old for that Jack well yeah I'm getting I'm getting to the level where I didn't stay up for the Argentina game.

2:45And I just watched the highlights in the morning because I just, you know, I kind of have the out of having like a nine-month baby in the house who, you know, even if I want to stay up till two or three o 'clock, it's not going to stop her from being up at five o 'clock in the morning. So, you know, but also, it's an excuse. I can't do it, mate. Even the England game, I'm sat there like clock watching, thinking, oh, this is getting on a bit. it was a bit i mean we also then watched the conor mcgregor fight which lasted like 45 seconds or something and then was like right that's definitely time to call it a day yeah i have to say the place we went as paid out was so ropey as well it's a slightly tangential but we turned up at this down this little private road to what looked like something out of a lock stock or something there was like a horse roaming around this kind of yard nearby just two uh two guys is like, I'm not joking, making what look like quite human-sized boxes at the side of this farm.

3:46Jesus. Yeah, yeah, it was a bit like, I'm not sure we've done the right thing here. Yeah, it all obviously worked out well. Don't worry, we didn't see anything. That kind of vibe. Yeah, exactly. Let's just get the beers in the cabin and let's get our heads down, you know. Well, that sounds pretty nice, aside for the potential crime scene you've witnessed though, mate. But... Right. are you uh i guess the overall from our conversation we had the last time you still enjoying the world cup you're still feeling that because again i i do have to say i think look the semi-finals have lined up the way we sort of intimated they might in the last one and i don't think i can remember a world cup final four as strong as this in quite some time really is that i've had to say yeah they all feel like heavy hitters don't they it just has like a really aesthetically pleasing look, doesn't it?

4:33It does. It really does. One side, England, Argentina on the other. There's something incredibly satisfying about it. It didn't look like that would be the case the other night. You know, maybe we can get into that a little bit further on. It looked like Switzerland were playing really well against Argentina. But I am enjoying it. It's full of narrative, I think. And those narratives are being sort of, they're fanning out a bit as the competition goes on as well, aren't they? You know, the other night, it was all about Bellingham. And, you know, I know a few pieces have been written now about, you know this is this is maradona a6 moment which was maybe a little bit premature but i think that there's there's a whole host of different stories and so often i guess the result dictates the narrative doesn't it so i think it's actually quite difficult sometimes to analyze performance in knockout football when the stakes are just so high because everything shifts you know if norway don't hit the bar if that creeps on if that creeps over the line then we're having such a different conversation but as it was it didn't and we maybe got a little bit of luck um we had the good fortune of having one of the best players in the world at the moment um doing bits didn't they yeah well let's let's let's do france morocco first let's let's because you know france are the favorites for the competition um they you know on paper they are a terrifying proposition morocco were a side that and continue to be a side that have established themselves now as one of the top teams in tournament football I think is fair to say did you feel like this game was a bit of a letdown because personally speaking I will say up front that I was kind of hoping there would be just a bit more from Morocco in this one I don't think I don't think France going through is a massive shock at all by any stretch of the imagination but I did kind of think Morocco might pose them a few more problems than they did yeah I agree to be honest with you I think I ended up looking at my phone a fair bit during this game.

6:27I kind of lost interest with it a little bit. You could see the way it was going. I agree, it was a massive letdown. Morocco are one of those teams that seemed to peak a little early in the tournament. They almost played their best 20 minutes of the entire tournament in the first game against Brazil, I thought. I don't think they really replicated it again. They are obviously a very dangerous side. France were just incredibly clinical. Yeah, on paper have probably one of the, probably the strongest squad. But in the end, I can never work out sometimes whether it was just the fact that France nullified them or it was the fact that Morocco didn't really show up.

7:02Because I think sometimes they're sort of two sides of the same coin, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I definitely do. And it's difficult because it's off the back of the Paraguay game where Paraguay really effectively stifled France, to be honest. took a slightly dodgy penalty for France to actually make a difference. And maybe had it gone to extra time, they would have scored a couple of goals or something like that. But there is something about, I don't know, there is something about this France side that as impressive as they are or as impressive as we know they can be, if I'm being brutally honest, just by eye test stakes, I'm not looking at them and thinking they look invincible.

7:42They look impossibly hard to be. I still look at this final four if we expand it out and think it's anybody's I kind of look at it and I think anybody could have their day um out of these four sides do you think that's normally the case though when we get to this stage of most tournaments I feel like it's very rare that a side steamroll is everybody in international football right up until the final I mean arguably maybe maybe Germany and Brazil um were sort of on the cusp of that I guess but I think that naturally there's always a degree of um because there's such disparity i guess between the quality of certain players there's always a slightly weird feel about some of these games i think that it does then lean itself more to individual moments anyway and often i think a lot of international football is just about getting your best players on the ball as frequently as possible in the best positions and i do wonder whether france have done that pretty well the other factor is that um Deshaun, is that how you pronounce it?

8:40I think, did he? Fine, fine. He's a bit of a crap manager, actually, I think. I don't know if that's a mad thing to say, but I know there was a lot of question marks around him at the start of this tournament and that actually he might have been too defensive and that he didn't unleash the attacking quality within that French side as much as he should. So I do wonder whether, although he has the credentials now, I know, you know, he might be under a bit of pressure to force the teams to play in a way that he's maybe not that comfortable with, actually. And maybe there's a bit of friction there.

9:15That's, I know, total, you know, kind of hearsay. It's just like a man talking about that on a podcast without any justification. But nevertheless, it's something that has maybe crossed my mind once or twice. We could try and float from this podcast. Deschamps. That might, do you know what I mean? Deschamps? If we're deliberating over pronunciation or something like that, Deschamps. Yeah. But yeah, France 2, Morocco 0. You know, it was a largely forgettable game. And I think as this sort of discussion right here demonstrates, one that we can draw really any big conclusions from. And I think to your point as well, mate, at this stage in any competition, we're talking about France, like they're going to be the team in the final.

9:59They've still got to play Spain, who have conceded one goal in this entire tournament. As Phil told me when we were last speaking on here about the World Cup, that up until the last game, Spain hadn't actually conceded a goal. I mean, we'll move into that. We'll segue into that. Spain against Belgium, one to Spain. Again, a somewhat unforgettable game. I'm noticing a pattern here. But a game that seemed pretty hard fought. um belgium actually actually showed up in a way that i didn't see them doing from the start of this tournament um it you could probably argue that there's something to be said for not pinning all your hopes on a golden generation if you like of stars and perhaps a team that has a bit more unity i mean to suggest that they don't have stars now is is false you know they've still got players like Jeremy Docku and Yuri Tielemans, Dikaku, De Bruyne, even if he's on his last leg.

11:00So it's a side that... We know what tournament football is like, right? It's not a 38-game season. It's... How many games is it to the final now? One more, isn't it? Yeah, I guess eight. Games to the final. So, you know, they didn't get it across the line, but they gave Spain a run for their money, I'd say annoyingly and this is pathetic I know but an Arsenal player scoring the winner for Spain as well just kind of tinges it a bit doesn't it? Always but it could have gone either way this game couldn't it? Yeah I think so there was definitely a bit of a feel of like the last dance about it for Belgium I think players like a they're not going to be playing another World Cup are they now?

11:47And it did feel like almost one last one last hurrah trying to get it across the line cause a bit of an upset. Those golden generation tags never come to fruition, do they? I mean, when Belgium were arguably at the peak of their powers, they got knocked out by how Robson, Karni, Cruyff turned in extra time, didn't they? So I think that often that puts an element of pressure on some of those sides that they can't really ever live up to. And maybe it causes teams to be set up in quite an imbalanced way as well, trying to fit all of those stars into it. Spain look very capable I guess like Spanish teams often do they've continued to go under the radar a little bit but I would say that they're certainly not a team that I would fear I mean I'm going to say right now that if I had my choice I'd much rather play Spain than France in the final to be honest I don't know about you I've been thinking about this one I've been thinking about this one I've been thinking about will this England team perform better against a side that will come at them like France do and look France coming at you is an intimidating prospect I appreciate that I sort of I look at I look at like you know Democratic Republic of Congo game and how well organized they were and I think you know stifled a lot of England's play and it took England by surprise a lot of the time it looked like England didn't have many answers for that we threw back to the I guess the point that was raised about Tuchel not really taking any of those maverick game-changing creative midfielders in a palmer or a foden or greelish somebody along those lines so then i'm i am like you know if france play a bit more expansively if they come at us and we you know big dan burn can get in the way of gillian mbappe then will that leave a bellingham some room to maraud kane a bit of space to get into and unleash a shot from i don't know you know I guess I just, I think my gut feeling is that we would have more pockets of space against France than we maybe would against Spain.

13:52However, I also look at that Spanish team and despite how, deservedly so, how lauded Yamal is, dare I say he's not really looked at the level in this World Cup. I don't know if he's carrying a bit of an injury or something. Yeah, I was going to say that. It's looked like Spain are just lacking a little sprinkle of stardust, if you like. Yeah, no, I think that's fair. You're right, he hasn't really lit up the tournament. He didn't start, did he, at first? Wasn't he carrying an injury coming into the first couple of games? So I'm pretty sure he didn't play in the first game or maybe the first two matches.

14:35But yeah, like I say, there's this sense of technical competency about Spain. that I think has allowed them to dominate games to an extent. I guess, you know, I don't feel like the reason why they haven't conceded many is because they're brilliant defensively. It's just the case of them having so much of the ball, you know, controlling games, controlling possession. So you're right, there is that. I mean, I'd be interested to see how we come up against that because it's not like they would sit in a low block, I suppose. um yeah there would still be opportunities for you know countering you know turnovers higher up the pitch um it's it's a really interesting one though i suppose i don't want to get too far ahead of myself either there is there is a quite big game on the horizon before that the world's biggest soccer tournament has arrived and you can trade the entire tournament on calci on calci you can trade every match from the opening stage all the way to the final on calci you're trading against peers in a live market meaning there's no house and as the probability changes you can buy in and out of your position.

15:36For a limited time, download the CalShea app and use code CUP26 to get$10 when you trade 10. K-A-L-S-H-I CalShea. Trade the beautiful game. 18 plus only restrictions and eligibility requirements apply event contract trading involves risk and may not be suitable for all investors. Prices, values, and available markets may differ from those mentioned. For more information, see calshea.com slash regulatory. If you're a small business owner, you'll know just what it's like to be the chief everything officer. HR, payroll, employee benefits. Well, Gusto can do all of that for you. Gusto is online payroll and benefits software built for small businesses.

16:11It's all-in-one, remote-friendly, and incredibly easy to use. It's quick and simple to switch to Gusto, just transfer your existing data to get up and running fast. Try Gusto today at gusto.com forward slash locked on soccer and get three months free when you run your first payroll. That's gusto.com forward slash locked on soccer. The entire summer of soccer is on prize picks. all 48 countries in every matchup. And if you rep your side before the round of 16 on prize picks, you can win a trip to the finals in New York. It's the biggest tournament ever, which means there's even more opportunities to cash in while you root for your favorite national sides and global soccer stars.

16:46Download the app today and use code CUP26 to get$50 instantly in lineups when you play your first$5. Download the app today and use code CUP26 to get$50 instantly in lineups when you play your first$5. Prize picks, America's number one sports picks app. Well, yes, quite. um England England against Norway now see I wanted to let's talk about this through the prism of the England game because out the back of this England have England have beaten a pretty handy Norway side they've sprung a few surprises along along the way on this tournament Erling Harland is you know one of the very best players in world football right now and it seems to be that as soon as the game is over that's all gone out the window and it's England struggled England an underwhelming side.

17:32They've not played any proper teams yet. And, you know, it's always funny how the narrative shifts, you know, going into that game. It's don't be arrogant. Don't, you know, underestimate a side like Norway. And now we've beaten them. It's, you know, you've not played anybody proper, if you like. I mean, we'd sort of spoken about France looking slightly underwhelming. We're also talking about, like, Spain perhaps being slightly underwhelming in patches, or at least, you know, some of their performances have been somewhat understated. The England players were playing, and the Norway players, were playing in extreme heat the other night on that pitch in Miami.

18:07Do you think that's kind of one of the things, one of the underlooked features of this tournament? Because it feels like it's something that everybody's aware of, everybody's conscious of, but perhaps isn't being fully factored into a lot of the discussions out the back of a lot of these games. That's an interesting point. Yeah, quite possibly. Right at the end of the game, Kane had collapsed the floor basically, didn't he? buried his head into the turf and looks totally exhausted and you have to take into account the number of football matches that a lot of the england players have played and it's interesting you say that because i did think that second half we looked really tired i thought that we almost ran out a bit of a ran out of a bit of steam and then in the first half of extra time we seem to get a bit of a second wind the substitution seemed to make a difference that seemed to freshen us up quite a bit it's it's been grueling isn't it and it's it's interesting because again against against mexico a huge amount was made you know of the altitude of course everyone was talking about it everyone was doing their running videos and explaining how it made them feel um you know mostly unsurprisingly incredibly knackered um but i think that because that was because it was almost like a resilient performance it was a good performance and quite heroic in places against a sort of south american side i always think against south american sides there's like this almost like borderline xenophobic exoticism that's attributed to them you know what i mean where it's almost this mythical status i think that was that was attributed to to mexico in a way that you can't attribute to miami which has different connotations and so i think a lot of it was just swept away purely because of the sort of cultural connotations of the two areas and again of our opponent as well because norway are another distinctly northern european team without the same sort of supposed i guess flair and um like mystery about them or mystique around them um so in my mind the two performances were quite similar and we had to battle similar similar problems and like you say norway were were good they've been good all tournament they beat brazil and you know they were able to bring on some pretty strong subs as well, showing the strength of their overall squad.

20:21Bringing on Oscar Bob and Noosa halfway through that game made a huge difference. So I think that that kind of resilience cannot be overlooked and shouldn't be overlooked either. 34 degrees Celsius in the stadium with a feels like 46 degrees due to the humidity. That is absolutely nuts. You know, I mean, being real with you, like it's been 34 in the UK for the past week and a bit. you know has touched that and i found it hard to even just sit at a computer and do my day job in in that sort of temperature you know let alone go out and play sport to a ludicrous level like like those lads are but the fact you were still recording podcasts is pretty heroic it's amazing i can't i can't say it gavin but you know there you are there you are you got my back yeah no way um yeah like i mean firstly you know the world is literally on fire which is quite terrifying but um it's it's it's mad and i don't you know i guess that you're right probably more should be made of it particularly for for players that aren't necessarily all conditioned to play in those kinds of environments all the time you know although winters are a bit milder now most of our players play probably in a very temperate climate all year and actually you know how just sort of on a day-to-day basis while it has been really hot.

21:41It's 29 degrees today and that feels so much cooler. It feels like almost you gradually acclimatize to stuff. So I think that, you know, the lack of acclimatization that the players have probably been able to carry out before the game and before this World Cup is probably pretty tricky. Then again, Norway probably in a similar boat as well, I guess. As you were saying at the top, Jude Bellingham, you know is the he is the talking point out the back of this game um and he's looks like he's going to be the talking point for england's world cup um if yeah if he continues in the way that he is i mean 20 23 years old to play with the level of maturity that he does to speak with the level of maturity that he does i mean he's just he's a he's a total sensation it's yeah you know i i think it's um i think there's i think there's a there's a very deep and very sort of interesting conversation i'm probably not best placed to have about the way in which he has kind of put an arm around jed spence and quite clearly has put an arm around jed spence but i think the fact he has done that is great and arguably arguably has hoped to bring out some pretty magnificent performances out of Jed Spence as well, who has been the, you know, he has been the fall guy for this tournament, and we've spoken about that before.

23:05Yeah. Ludicrously unfairly. But before we talk about Jed Spence, let's talk about Bellingham because, you know, he's already getting factored into it. I don't know if you've been watching the rest of his football, but, you know, he's already kind of been, I'm not sure if he actually made their greatest England XI of all time, but he was in the conversation, and I'm sure by the end of his career he will be considered one of if not England's greatest ever player I mean I don't look I can't say I sit and watch a lot of Real Madrid games and I can't say I've ever sat and watched a lot of Dortmund games but from the clips and everything you've heard about Jude Bellingham it's it's always been known that he's an incredibly talented player obviously in the last Euros, he showed that with aplomb for England and is continuing to do so now.

23:55I mean, he's just ridiculous, isn't he? He's ridiculous. I mean, I love him. I absolutely love him as well. I think he's one of the best I've ever seen in an England show. Yeah, he's an absolute monster, isn't he? I was trying to think of comparisons and what players he really reminds me of. because he's got a bit of a unique kind of swagger about him. And I was thinking that would be maybe like Zidane a little bit. Yeah, 100%. Because Zidane was a really big guy as well, but also quite fleet-footed. And Bellium almost appears to have a low center of gravity despite his kind of height and physical build.

24:37He seems to have such brilliant game awareness. And he's not your kind of standard, I mean, what would you even call him? Maybe we shouldn't try and pigeonhole him into any kind of particular midfield archetype. But he seems to be everywhere at times. And his ability to show up in crucial moments is something that's quite unique. It can't be coached. The maturity thing, I think, is something that you're absolutely right about. And this, again, is something that maybe he's developed through going abroad at a very young age. a lot of footballers a lot of English footballers in particular don't do that, they haven't done that traditionally I do wonder whether going to Dortmund when he was like what 16, 17 I think maybe 17 at the oldest living in Germany and then moving to Spain, I think he speaks a little bit of German and Spanish as well and so I think it just shows a kind of intangible sort of roundness to his personality that also comes out in his football as well.

25:44You know, having those experiences in two of the other major European leagues and Birmingham City, of course, makes for a pretty interesting career trajectory and for a pretty interesting experience, I think. The thing I always find quite interesting in bringing up Birmingham City there is, you know, oh, how we laughed when Birmingham City retired his shirt number when he was 17 years old and left the club. But it does make me wonder, you know, there's a lot of conversation, there has been a lot of conversation lately at least in in a kind of non-serious joking sense on twitter and everything about just how good premier league players or just how good professional footballers are compared to even your most incredible sunday league footballers for example and it just makes me wonder like with how many players any club any professional club any club who's league two upwards right the sort of quality of players that they must get through every single year for every single academy catchment group it just makes me wonder like just how ludicrous jude bellingham must have been at that age and what it was that he was doing at that age that actually made them make the decision because because it's almost like they knew this was coming like yeah because because it is that whole kind of no one's laughing now are they type thing i've just quoted nigel farage there to my shame but uh no one is laughing now though about them having retired the shirt are they and it just it just it staggers it blows my mind to to to even consider how good he must have been and what it is that they saw him doing it really reminds me of i know you don't really follow follow cricket a great deal but have you heard about this indian batsman surrey vanchi so he's 15 he's not turned 16 yet and he's just made his debut for the indian cricket team and he's you know the most unique player you can possibly imagine and who already is tipped as a as a unique generational talent so he was he was the leading run scorer in the indian premier league at 15 last season which is insane um because that's like ipl's like cream of the crop isn't it plays in the ipl yeah exactly all the best players from the world all the best short form players will go and play in in that 2020 league and there's there's already such a clear differentiation between him and any other 15 16 year old that's ever been seen playing the game um at least in in recent years at least in probably the last 25 30 years and i think that maybe there was something similar happening at birmingham that we just didn't have we didn't have eyes on at the time um but i think that these kinds of unique talents when they're when they're 11 above sometimes actually it's it's it's pretty it's pretty clear i guess the the trajectory that they're on because in football especially you don't very very very rarely get players that develop so quickly at that young age most players of course peak around what 26 27 28 now um and the fact that he's learned his craft so quickly i was watching something else recently about the way that football players have been coached to almost been an inch of their life um and that there's actually little little room for flair sometimes in the in the modern game and he's a guy who has obviously been coached brilliantly he has um you know he has like really really great flawless technique but also has something special about him as well um and i wonder whether this was like a kind of theory that because he wasn't provided with supposedly world-class coaches while at birmingham city he wasn't ever able to be developed into a particular type of player and i wonder actually whether playing lower down the leagues at that level allowed him to give it gave him some freedom you know he's got himself and things like that what did you make of the you know the gabriel gabriel gabriel gabriel clark engineered uh not spat between him and tushel but say public disagreement is that fair to call it i mean am i adding to the narrative here by saying that i was i was wondering about this it does feel like we're always desperate to dig our own graves sometimes in the UK media.

29:52And I think that there probably was a little bit of disagreement between the two, but it's Tuchel's job to say we should be playing better, which we can. And it's Jude Bellingham's job to say we tried really hard and to keep morale of the rest of his teammates up. And, you know, without sounding all Roy Keane about it, that's just their job, isn't it? I'm sure that they're pretty well aligned, aren't they? And, you know, if they go on to get to the World Cup final, I don't think Jude Bellingham and Thomas Tuchel are going to be falling out with one another i um i did find it quite irritating i i've i've i've never really found gabriel clark to be like an offensive character or anything like that i do on reflection i do find him to be one of those sort of sniffier posho journalists really if you if you like and i find his sort of his perhaps his way of approaching certain conversations is very like a public school master really in a way um and that's you know maybe what leads to this type of thing but i from leaking kind of team news to team sheets all that type of thing i just i struggle to get it i just i just don't i don't get the motive from the same guys who are going to be saying at the end of every single tournament why is it why is it that england always wilt under this pressure what what is it that always happens to them when they are like like you kind of said they're going like they actively seem to get involved in shaping these narratives that go against our go against the the team's best interests yeah it's just it's just i just find it very i find it very frustrating and i i think at a time like now when you can tell that the the vibes are immaculate if you like what are you trying to throw a spanner in that just right now it's it's a world cup semi-final we've got coming up is it really that important to you to get the byline of Jude Bellingham says this thing and Tuchel says the other thing like what's the isn't it a zero-sum game yeah it's a weird sort of agenda isn't it I I agree and also I think most of the public don't really buy it either it all feels very late 90s early 2000s football reporting that desperate to get the claws in and desperate to create friction when there isn't any maybe sometimes where there is some um i think that the public have sort of mostly had enough of that kind of reporting because it's miserable you know at a time as well when um the england football side has been doing so consistently well over the last eight or nine years i think that people are more willing to unify and get behind it as a bit of a uh on another bit of a tangent but um i walked past uh the daily mail earlier and the bit at the top of the headline said why women are falling for Jude Bellingham and it's not the reason you might think.

32:38I thought, what an odd thing to say, because I can't even think what the reason might be, you know, on the surface of it. But I think like, you know, stuff like that is, you know, that kind of like gutter journalism is unhelpful. I think most people are kind of just bored of that shtick. Hey, it's Bill from the Bill Simmons podcast. FIFA World Cup 26 fans, listen up. As the official beer sponsor of the FIFA World Cup 26, Michelob Ultra is giving away$1 million worth of FIFA World Cup 26 tickets and prizes. Enter now at MichelobUltra.com slash superior access slash FIFA World Cup 26. Michelob Ultra FIFA World Cup 26 superior access, no purchase necessary.

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34:30certain components of an industry that have made their bones in a different time that, you know, I sit here all smugly and sort of, I'm not reveling in people kind of petering into irrelevance, but I think there's plenty of examples of journalists who have adapted to the times and kind of picked up the note and tonality of our current times, right? And there's others who seem to want to dig their heels in, and there's plenty of them, there's plenty of examples of them that still want to talk about football in this kind of old-fashioned way that don't like you know i saw a report early that was you know that was going on about who was i can't remember who it was that was saying it but it might have been the telegraph or somebody that was going on about you know basically how tushel's approach is no woke and all that type of stuff like south gates was to bring forward this generation of like players who were political activists and all this type of stuff and i just think like if england go ahead and win this world cup for my money the victory belongs almost as much to gareth southgate as it would to thomas tuchel um before before gareth southgate came along england had england have had some fantastic teams down the years with some absolutely incredible players who have not gone close to the level of consistency and you know big tournament um depth shall we say as as southgate's teams have and and as we've continue to right like yeah i think i think to pick tuchel style and shtick against southgate is unfair and i think a lot of the time is really actually quite outrageous to to diminish what it is that southgate actually achieved with england with the the spirit around the the nation and the camp and the players and the way we view our football team yeah definitely and i think that um And, you know, Southgate was incredibly emotionally intelligent.

36:21And because he doesn't come across as your typical football manager going irate at the touchline, jumping up and down, swearing at all of his players, and because, you know, he's made documentaries about men's mental health, for whatever reason, that's anathema to a particular section of the UK. In an incredibly unhelpful way, I think, to compare the two managers is reductive, it's lazy, and mostly pointless. And, you know, there's just so much more nuance to these things. I think that we're always forced to look at different epochs within football, within history as well, as being very distinct.

36:56And we say, right, you know, that was this period on the Southgate and then it was like a fresh start and then it was Tuchel's England. But of course, these different periods always bleed into one another. You know, there are always foundations that have been left behind to some extent that are then built upon afterwards. and I think that that's never really given enough credence. I mean, look at Liverpool. You know, that first season on the slot, effectively that seemed like Klopp's title win. It was Klopp's team. And as soon as they started playing, maybe more distinctly, slot football, they fell away.

37:30And so, yeah, I think it's more complicated than that. And, you know, in a similar sense, one of the reasons for chastising Jed Spence, I think, was that the media decided to single him out for a bit. And, you know, since that, he's been absolutely sensational. I can't believe that I'm managing to shoehorn this in, but I was talking to you before this about Graham Taylor documentary that I was watching from 1990. What was it called again? The Impossible Job, I think. It is sensational. It's such a throwback to another era. You can almost, like, smell the sweat and tiger balm in the changing room.

38:12and he's talking on the bench as a lot of fans in the stands are abusing John Barnes and in places racially abusing John Barnes and he's talking to his other coaches and saying this was because of that mirror headline, this was because of that there's a real influence sometimes, a really insidious influence I think externally that definitely the players sometimes hear and that's why Bellingham is putting his arm around Jed and you know building him up because they probably have those conversations internally you know these players are you know they're human beings and now we are fed more sort of i guess external stories you know communication than ever before yeah and it's my sister it's non-stop isn't it it's a constant news cycle it's a it's stories it's conversations it's thoughts being beamed into your eyeballs 24 7 if you want it to be and to just to continue to sort of bury your head in the sand about that and to ignore the fact that words have power um and can manifest real world you know terrible things is it's just disingenuous or just moronic really i think that's kind of the place i'm at look i mean this is this is a nice sort of entry point look argentina they managed to turn it around they were taken to extra time by switzerland um and then put them put them to bed really um quite comprehensively in extra time and as such has set up um as somebody with both english and argentinian heritage the actual fixture that i can be least asked for um in in the entirety of football i i you know england is my home england is my country it's the team i'm supporting i just i you know the thing for me is i i know i remember 98 i remember you know people who you know and this this is the world's smallest violin this is but this is you know in 1998 people at secondary school calling me something like an RG or or whatever do you know what I mean where you're like what like this is you know just the way in which this stuff manifests and the way people lash out because of things like football or stupid stuff and I even yeah I think even one lad half sort of intimated he wanted to like fight me after school after England got knocked out and stuff and thinking like this is not this is not even anything on my radar this is nothing that my dad's ever spoken about really this is not this is i was gonna be fair you were sort of saying that los malvinos are out yeah yeah that's it yeah i was walking around school like that yeah waving this but but you know i mean so there's this type of there's this edge to it and there's this sort of conversation that comes out every time around this fixture um i think for the for the you know and i've seen it on twitter from both sides i think the the thing that i find particularly well the thing i find particularly depressing about that is because it's it's two places that i have a deep affection and love for that utterly despise one another which is yeah it's not it's not particularly pleasant but i think i would say probably this time around this there's a there's a lot of kind of pieces to this and this is interesting on this point we're talking about like about narratives and about the sort of the the real world impact that that can have um because i think you know from my understanding anyway from like you know from from what i read and from you know just anecdotal conversations i've had with sort of family members at various different points and things like that look really i think like you know the falklands is an issue that is very prevalent in in argentina right it's something that's very big and when you see if you go down the sort of rabbit holes on argentina twitter or whatever right now they are treating this fixture like it's a war and they are they are treating this like you know this is a this is a serious thing you know we're talking about kind of like barra boys being kind of like called up from bocca from river all this type of stuff to come and fight the english hooligans and it's like but lads like this idea you have now i think i think gen genuinely speaking before this sort of fixture if you asked your sort of average 20, 30-something English person about the Falkland Islands, they wouldn't know.

42:14Oh, it's a war we had once sometime. But it's not in the psyche here. The sort of England fans, for the most part, that are going out to America are not the hooligans of the 1980s. No, not at all. It's families. It's people going out to enjoy football, and it's rich people. You know, that's who's going out to... So this idea that you're going to have this war on the terraces with the English and stuff. It's just, it's so short-sighted. And that's why I think, like I will just say, and I'm not saying this in a pearl-clutching way, I think it's totally disgraceful that the Argentinian squad are singing about the Falklands in their dressing room.

42:52I think it's shameful that FIFA haven't even given them like a slap on the wrist about it. Because I would expect that to happen. I would want that. If the England squad were singing 10 German bombers in the change rooms before going against Germany, it would be a disgrace. and it should be rightfully kind of stamped out. But the fact that their players are kind of stoking the fire of this, and we're talking about players like Kuti Romero, like Martinez, Enzo Fernandez, players that live in England that ply their trade here. You stupid little boys, you're footballers. What are you fucking singing about the Falklands War for?

43:26And also like on that, when there were like young conscripts being sent to fight and die for a faraway island, like when they were your sort of... By a fascist dictator. By a fascist big censorship. like to kind of be to sort of act like that's something almost pithy or i don't know it's it's so it feels yeah sort of incredibly incredibly ignorant really um and because i don't believe that many of the young members of that argentinian squad really know what they're necessarily doing or the potential ramifications of that as well and and how how it has the ability to stoke some some flames um the i saw that the was it the argentinian equivalent foreign secretary used the semi-final draw as an opportunity to say something else about about the falcon islands as well it's an incredibly tough it's an incredibly tough one to navigate this as well isn't it and you're right because actually although the political atmosphere of this world cup could have created an incredibly contentious divisive atmosphere it hasn't i actually feel like it's been quite unifying yeah and you know all the images of like the scottish fans and stuff for example who yeah maybe some of that stuff is a bit played up for whatever reason but nevertheless i still you know even if it is a bit mawkish quite enjoy all that and seeing you know fans of other nations sort of dancing together and whatnot i think it's quite heartwarming particularly in an era where a lot of people are polarized in their views of you know other other countries other people other races and religions so i think that that that can have a really positive impact so it just feels incredibly depressing for this to be used as a as a lens almost through which to navigate this incredibly contentious sort of political topic um and you just hope that that doesn't spit out onto the pitch to any capacity and you hope that there's a way of being able to to navigate this sensibly you know yeah as i mean i i don't know it just it it's it's going to be one of those things that either nothing comes of it and it's just big talk and it's you know it is what it is i think the americans i've seen the you know the atlantapedia or something are fully in the know as to the sensitive if you like political climate around this fixture i think they know the proximity you know relatively speaking and how mobilized a lot of the sort of barabravis as i was talking about before will be to come down and get involved you know i don't know if their passports will be stamped or whatever i'm not sure i'm not sure you'd hope that something can be done i've seen a few scuffles kick out already over social media again it seems to be you know nobody really knows who the aggressors are in in these sort of situations but for the most part it seems like look i'm not sat here don't don't get me wrong you know i don't particularly have a dog in this fight you know for anybody thinking i'm sitting here thinking england fans are whiter than white i i know what england fans are capable of yeah of course yeah like i'm i'm fully aware that you know they can they too can act disgracefully on on the international stage but i do think personally speaking it's quite an outdated opinion yeah of england fans for the most part um that it's a generation that you know we'll see we'll see come the euros right when we host it what what what happens if there's yeah maybe let's i'll speak too soon yeah exactly you know because we saw it happen in 2020 right like but it's i don't know it's just it's a different thing but i think yeah your your point is sound given it's just a shame to see that you know the sort of the good vibes of the tournament get reduced and that's that's just why it's why i hate this fixture it's truly why i hate it like and i think i sort of feel it as well when it's england germany i'm just kind of like i just i just can't be also because germany historically have often beaten england but yeah you know i just all of it i just find it so i just find it so boring you know and the national coach scolone's obviously he's come out and said like that it's a football match end of that hasn't been yeah he said it's a great rivalry between two great teams passionate all that type of stuff but it's a football match and that's the discussion you know this episode is brought to you by google health stop chasing someone else's definition of health what matters is what's healthy for you google health offers a new kind of coach built with gemini for effortless tracking sleep insights and holistic coaching tailored to you.