Inside the Golden Age of Porn

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0:30Head to CozyEarth.com and use my code SUZY, that's S-U-Z-Y, for an exclusive 20 % off. That's code SUZY for an exclusive 20 % off. And if you see a post-purchase survey, mention that you heard about Cozy Earth right here. I might put out a jerk-off video of myself and see what that does for my career. That would be good. Give it a try. Give it a try. Why not? Welcome, everyone, to Second Thought. I'm Suzy Weiss. I'm Dana Dute. And today we are joined by a free press favorite, the bard of Los Angeles, Allie Rowbottom. Allie, welcome to Second Thought. Thank you so much for having me. What's the title of this?

1:06Because I've been reading it on the train and been getting some weird looks. I call it Lovers XXX. Some people are saying Lovers XXX, and sometimes I just say Lovers. I was reading it at the dentist's office, and I was in the waiting room, and there was like a very salacious scene that I was reading. And I'm just there alone, and then I hear, Dan, the doctor's ready? and I like dropped my phone because I felt like I got caught. I've never read this type of book and I was absolutely riveted and I could not. One with chapters? One with chapters and no pictures. How was that for you, Dan? It was so good.

1:41I was telling Susie right before we started that this, the way you captured LA made me feel like the last time I felt like anything like that was seeing Pulp Fiction. Yeah. Thank you so much. Wow, I'm going to store that one away. Please do. You really can't put it down. Why did you want to write about the golden age of pornography, as it's called? Los Angeles, 1980s, videotape just came out. What was it about this moment that attracted you? You know, it was a couple things. Like, I started this novel as a, like, same structure and same basic premise, but it was set in the 60s in Laurel Canyon for two singer songwriters, like folk singers.

2:21I was listening to Once Upon a Time in the Valley, the Lily analic podcast and i was like okay this is just like 25 years later but it's so compelling and hot and sexy and all of the things that make me want to listen and i was like if i could make this world on the page i think people would want to read about it and i also like in aesthetica that was set in 2017 and 2035 and i just wanted to go back in time after that i didn't want to have to write another iphone novel i needed a break that makes a lot of sense yeah 100 i want you to read this is from the introduction and I just think it's so read the highlighted bit.

2:57Women like Christy Canyon, Ginger Lynn, Amber Lynn, Portia Lynn, Candida Royale, Sharon Mitchell, Annie Sprinkle and the indomitable Nina Hartley had lived adventurous lives at the intersection of what I find most compelling as a writer. Women's agency, empowerment and sexual expression forged within the intricate ancient systems built by men for the purpose of oppressing us. so I guess the question there is just is porn empowering oh I don't think I can answer that question that is a person by person answer I think well I guess is it empowering for the performer do you think it depends on the performer I guess so wow you're gonna evade that question I I don't know and I mean I didn't write this book with an answer in mind same with aesthetica I just write around the question and I'm going to look at it from a couple different perspectives but I think it's ultimately it's it's unanswerable I mean I imagine you spoke to many people in this field while you're researching this book what are some examples of people who were empowered by it and some examples of people who were not empowered by it so the women that I just read the names of were really my entree into this time period and world and something that compelled me about, you know, their stories, which they've been quite vocal about, was their insistence on the empowering aspects of this work.

4:24And that, of course, would come from they're making more money than they ever could. Unlike in earlier iterations of pornography, as you describe, they're the stars, not the male directors. They're the ones who can, you know, command the large prices and they're video vixens. They're on the cover of the box. Is that what they were talking about? Yes, they were. And that was like early 80s O-centric. So the transition from film to VHS really brought this level of, you know, empowerment to some performers. And of course, like when I heard that, I was like, oh, that defies my expectation. I want to examine it.

4:58There are certainly a lot of testimonies from people who have had negative experiences. Typically, the people who are very insistent on the empowerment element of porn are people who are recognizable and who had those big careers and then for whom it worked out yeah it worked out yeah and then there's like probably thousands of performers who are not recognizable by name who who don't have that story and that we just don't hear from so in the book i wanted to make sure that even though i had this character of jude who had a really positive for the most part experience in the industry there was another side to that coin and that comes through the character of Winnie.

5:36And Winnie, I don't want to give away too much, but at a certain point in the book writes this expose for the LA Weekly, you know, a week in my life as an adult film actress. And it's so, it's almost like something you would see today. Someone being like, here's my expose. And I think a lot of people talk about, there's a line of argument that says, if porn only ended in the 60s, 70s, 80s, everything would be different. If it stopped with your, you know, your dad's hustler or penthouse in a box in the garage, and that was the extent of it, and you weren't, there was no internet aspect where you could be pushed to more and more extreme content, then maybe we wouldn't be in the sexpocalypse we're in now, or like whatever you want to call it.

6:23Do you think there's merit there? Or was there always a moral panic about the porn? I mean, there was certainly a moral panic at the time. I think it's easy to look back and have that sort of rosy colored glasses, nostalgic feeling. And I think that is really rampant right now. Just this idea that like the bodies were more natural. There were scripts. There was more of an artistic flair to the production, all of that stuff. But and to a degree, I do think that, you know, the Internet has been responsible for a lot of like shitty stuff. But at the same time, like with the rise of OnlyFans, that has been an empowering platform for a lot of adult performers.

7:03So I wouldn't want to say like, you know, porn reached its apex of empowerment in the 80s. I don't think that that's true. Do you think OnlyFans is a net positive? Oh, good question. Or net negative? like these are not Allie Rowbottom who by the way before we get to that great question have you like you do have a porny name me don't you think actually this is a good story um I reported from the ABNs for Playboy the adult video network or news uh words for Playboy um this past January Oscars of porn Oscars of porn and I interviewed Mark Spiegler who's one of the most famous talent agents in the business and um told him my name and he said that same thing he was like Maybe we'll name a girl after you.

7:46Oh, my God. Oh, does he name them? I think there's an element of that, yeah. I'm sure that there are people who name themselves as well. Wait, I'm curious about this guy. Is he, like, super charming? I was a little starstruck. I had, like, approached him at the Dunkin' Donuts down in the lobby and just been like, I'm writing for Playboy. Can I interview you? And I'm sure he's very used to that, you know, mode of approach, and he was very gracious. but at the same time there are aspects of his presentation that feel very like all the cliches are true. Only fans net positive, net negative. I mean I don't deal in totalizing theories.

8:22I can't do a net positive, net negative. It's just not in my nature. It's like beside the point to me. That's what makes the book so good because you sort of do this, you give the same treatment to plastic surgery. Is this empowering or does this make women a further slave to, as you put it, the systems that men put in place to oppress us. Yeah. And I can't say I can't answer that. I still can't like personally in my life. I can't answer that. I can ask the question though, like at multiple junctures in my life and reassess and feel differently about it. And like, yeah, it's just so important to me and my fiction not to write from that place of certainty.

8:58I feel like whenever people ask me like where I get my comedy from, I'm like, I have an awful imagination. It's all just things that happen in life. And then I write them. Do you have a great imagination or are these all pretty true to life stories because it's so specific in such a way where I'm like someone can't just come up with this or maybe you can I mean I have a I have a great imagination I think not to pat myself on the back please do um uh this book is heavily researched I mean they both are and my first book jello girls as well and a lot of the time like especially with aesthetica and it's sort of yet to be seen with certain elements of lovers but like stuff that I imagined came to fruition like came to be real um years later so a lot of the time it's really just like using that novelist mind to be like okay well like what is like the logical next step if this happens what then would happen next what would the pendulum swing back exactly like you can imagine it if you're looking at history as I do with lovers but then also like you know transposing it onto the future and with a with esthetica for those who haven't read it the swing back is this idea that in the near future there will be a procedure where you'll be able to undo all of the plastic surgery you did in order to make yourself younger you'll explant your implants that you got to make your boobs bigger and and they'll be able to make it so you've aged naturally right have you seen influencers be like i'm throwing everything out you know i'm going a natural.

10:30I'm getting, you know, the fillers dissolved from my lips. I mean, definitely have you? I've seen that. I've seen it a lot. Yeah, it is happening a lot for sure. I want to read a bit from the op ed that Winnie, one of your characters, writes about her experience. And she quotes the feminist Andrea Dworkin. Sure. So I'm going to read that out loud. The feminist. Actually, I'm gonna have you read that out loud. It's your book. Happy to do it. Yeah. The feminist theorist Andrea Dworkin writes that quote pornography is the orchestrated destruction of women's bodies and souls rape battery incest and prostitution animate it dehumanization and sadism characterize it it is a war on women serial assaults on dignity identity and human worth it is a tyranny it's pretty compelling theories that's a totalizing theory but it's like it's hard to prove it not true because just there's so many examples of all of those things.

11:27Sure but there's so many examples of the opposite too. Right. Maybe not quite as many but there are. Where you're able to sort of pull yourself out of your station and create a life for yourself. Yeah and maybe do something that you feel predisposed to or enjoy doing. Did you spend a lot of time in strip clubs researching the book? Oh yeah. I have spent quite a bit of time in strip clubs. Not necessarily thinking it was research for the novel. Are you a strip club person? I wouldn't say I'm an ardent strip club person, but I do enjoy maybe like a yearly sojourn. Yeah. A yearly pilgrimage? Yeah.

12:02Like last year for my wedding anniversary, my husband and I went to a strip club and I got several lap dances and it was nice. That sounds fun. In Los Angeles? Here, actually, right down the street at Sapphire. Okay, because there is, we were talking about this before, I think in LA there's a law where if they're naked, no alcohol is served. I think that's true as well and if they're wearing clothes then you can serve alcohol which is why Jumbo's Jumbo's Clown Room um that's the sort of leftist strip club right it's like the worker owned yeah it's really like sex positive strip club the hipster one yes yeah it is it is so hipster at this point like it's been around for so long it's like a parody yeah it's friend of the pod recently Jumbo's Clown Room yeah please I do love Jumbo's amazing dancers great service do you think there's more freedom around the stuff on the West Coast?

12:51Like, or do you think the East Coasters are a little more buttoned up? Like, jumbos, no thank you, I'll go to the Yale Club. I do think so, yeah. Yeah. I mean, generally. Wait, really? Because you can have booze in a strip club on the East Coast, but you can't on the West Coast. I just think, like, more, like, vibe-wise, the East Coast does sort of retain that, like, puritanical, like, and maybe some of it is, like, you know, this idea of, like, New York as the intellectual epicenter of the world in LA as like Hollywood skin factory. And that stuff is hard to shake off. I mean, it's been interesting with this novel.

13:29I've been sort of surprised by how difficult it's been to get coverage in some places and stuff because of the pornography element, I think. Oh, really? Yeah. I just, I think it's so tame. I mean, compare it to actual pornography. Right, I mean, it's like a literary treatment of porn. And it's interesting to examine, you know, I mean, this is my whole thing is I'm interested in big mechanisms of culture that we don't necessarily talk about because they're seen as lowbrow or pertaining to women and silly women at that, women that we can like make. So plastic surgery influencing, for example, porn.

14:07Yeah. So to me, it's like, well, why wouldn't I take it seriously, especially because so few people do? Well, that's what I found so sort of beautifully jarring about it is that I don't think I've ever read about this kind of, you know, underworld taboo in such a beautifully written prose. Like in such a like it was a very highbrow, lowbrow mix for me that was like really kind of exhilarating. I'd never I'd never read anything like it. Thank you. I think there's been a lot of talk about like, well, aren't we all selling ourselves? Like if you're on Substack, you're taking bits of yourself and selling it.

14:45Or if you are trying to have a brand on Instagram in a way, you are selling yourself. And what I love about this book, it explores the shades and then the bright line. Where is the bright line among all of the shades? And I was just curious if that's something you were thinking about too. Like are, you know, if you're selling your sexuality, are you a sex worker? like a you know a popular Instagram influencer for example who knows she gets more likes if she posts a picture in a bikini? No I don't think so but I do agree that like and I've experienced this myself in my writing career is that like stuff that wouldn't necessarily feel like part of the job of being a novelist has kind of become you know that sort of self-branding, self-packaging, self-promotion which for better for worse I've taken on yeah um and I think you know many people have regardless of industry but I don't think that makes me a sex worker for sure no you know I I read um Chuck Losterman's book the 90s oh yeah one of the defining uh like ethos of the 90s was don't sell out do not sell out you can't be a sellout like there was this big thing with like Like I think Pearl Jam once, Ticketmaster like tripled their prices and they're like, you sold out.

16:02And like they shut down the concert. And I feel like that pendulum swung so much where it's like you have to sell everything. You're selling your cameo videos. You're selling merch. Everyone's got merch. Anyone's got merch. And everyone is like. Everyone has a beauty line. Everyone has a bathing suit line. Sell as much as you can. I was talking about this with someone the other day who's a Gen Xer. So grew up in the 90s. And we were talking about how greed isn't a bad thing. Like greed isn't necessarily a bad thing. He's like, whoa, you guys are nihilists. Like because when he was growing up, the whole message was don't sell out.

16:36But there's other sins, you know what I mean? That you could choose to not indulge in or indulge in. So I think like deciding that greed is the worst one and it's worse than lust or worse than I'm pointing you lust or gluttony or the a million other things. It's like, I don't know, like maybe they're all bad. And maybe it's like, you know, an individual choice, like what what feels right to me and my moral system versus someone else's. Yeah, I get that. Let's take it a step further, though. Like if your daughter wanted to become a sex worker or a stripper. That's always a question. That's a question.

17:14Well, I don't have one. You were like, I just needed to avoid this this question. So I don't have a daughter. I don't have one. But, you know, like, I mean, and it's impossible, I think, to answer that question honestly. given that fact but is it cherry in the book also has these uh cherry lynn why are they why are they all named lynn i just like it is it like a middle of the country kind of like midwest thing yeah there were three of them at least ginger amber and portia lynn lynn in the 80s so funny i had the opportunity to meet ginger in las vegas in january and she was incredible and she was signing merch at the AVN Awards.

17:55So I got my signed photograph that's hanging in my house. What are those awards? In Vegas, I think they have these events where you can go meet your... It's a con, kind of. Yeah, it was like that. There's an expo, and then at the end of the week, there's an award ceremony. Dan goes to cons. I do. I recommend it. I would like to go to AVN again. I had a great time. I go to the Cobra Kai Con. I haven't been to the AVN Con. But people line up to get a picture of it. But I'm curious. Like, I mean, there's something. I don't know. It feels like if there's a bunch of guys lining up who've like jerked off to me that are like, I want to like touch you.

18:31I don't know. That feels so creepy to me now. Well, in the book, there's moments where she's like, I feel like the queen of the world. And other moments where she's like, ew, this vulnerable. Like, I feel so vulnerable. And at one point homesick when she realized that a man recognized her from porn. I said in my Playboy piece about the AVNs that like an alien touching down might sort of mistake this for a goddess worshiping culture. Because the women are very much, you know, elevated and treated like queens, but they're never unaccompanied by a male escort. Right. And things might be different if they were unaccompanied.

19:09We don't know. But it was an interesting dynamic for sure. I found it really fun. And I felt like as a woman sort of traversing the expo floor, like I felt safe. I felt like adored. It felt great. And like interacting with men in those situations, it's just like, okay, well, like it's all laid bare. Like we all know why you're here and what I mean to you. We don't have to pretend. Interesting. interesting by virtue of the fact that like the naughty thing is being said out loud it can be kind of like freeing and it's like we all know why we're here versus if you're in a really repressive situation i'm thinking of like a sunday school something that is what people find extremely erotic how did the worlds of drugs and alcohol and the other vices how does that kind of um seep into the tie-dye of the world of pornography there's a lot of cocaine in this book so maybe we'll start there well i just think it has to be historically accurate yeah and there was a lot of cocaine in the adult industry in the 80s in every industry in the 80s yeah i mean it was again like similar to porn a driving force culturally um so i couldn't omit that i had started it thinking i was writing about a character loosely based on judy sill um tell will you tell us who judy sill is so judy sill is or was a singer songwriter in los angeles in the 60s um in that sort of laurel canyon crowd who did not really break out and see the level of success that like someone like a joni mitchell who winnie is loosely based on um there's a rugged road.

20:57Yeah. An incredible. I mean, you listen to the music and you're just like, yep, that's it. Like, I imagine if you're a musician, you listen to that. You're like, I give up. Like, this is insane. Yeah. And she was like, she was super mystical. Like, she was really into like, weird religiosity and like, odd sex cults and stuff like that. Christianity. One of her big songs is Jesus Was a Crossmaker. Beautiful song. She started out like, she had gone to reform school and then like she was robbing liquor stores to feed her heroin addiction um there's a great piece I think in Rolling Stone that sort of like goes into her backstory um and she was you know somewhat rediscovered in like what was I like 2015 maybe as a person who never really got her to yes exactly and I believe she died in a motel room yes you know of an overdose yeah sure but But, you know, when I was writing Jude as like that character, like it felt important to have that element and to have addiction be, you know, something that held her back.

21:59And that was a vice for her and a fatal flaw, if you will. So it just felt natural. And I think like, you know, it's so important to give characters obviously something that they want and that they desire. and at the same time with Jude it felt like fitting that she wouldn't entirely know what that was like maybe it's Winnie maybe it's Laird and drugs like maybe it's this sort of like vague amorphous idea of like what it means to be an artist and keeping in mind that she's 18 in the first half of the book there's like there's that sense when you're 18 of like I want something I want to be someone but you don't quite know what it was and that felt important to me especially because I wanted it to happen and this does happen in the book that like when she shoots her first adult film she feels like this is what I was on top of the world yeah this is I found it this is my thing and maybe she's wrong readers will find out maybe she's right but um I wanted that felt like a sort of a radical experience to give a character of like having sex on film and being like, whoa, I actually really loved that.

23:14And I'm really good at it. I'm really good at it. That defied my expectations of what it would be like to shoot an adult film for the first time. I think it makes it the critiques of it more fulsome when you show that it's actually awesome to be high on cocaine. You know what I mean? It's like, there's a reason people keep going back to it. Like it's an unbelievable high. Yeah. Yeah. Someone was saying to me, like, I don't think I would like cocaine and I was like well it goes into those receptors in your brain that make you like things a lot so you probably would like it right you would like it at first and then maybe the next time you would like it a little less and a little less and a little less and a little less I think that's like chemically yeah proven that it's just like a drug of diminishing return I think a lot of this book and maybe even Aesthetica too is like taking something that like is on its face great to its logical demented conclusion, whether it's sex, money, drugs, like do you see yourself kind of wanting to maybe scratch the scab until it bleeds?

24:16Yes. I think, you know, as like an artist, as a novelist, you kind of have to. You have to go to like the most extreme place and the place where there's most conflict. What's the most misunderstood thing about porn that people don't understand? Oh, great question. Ooh, just one. I mean, I think. No, we'll take five. Yeah. As many as you got. Okay. Well, I think that it can be fun. Like, I mean, to me at this point, that feels like obvious because I've spent a lot of time researching this world. But when I started, it wasn't as obvious. And certainly at other times in my life, that did not feel obvious at all.

24:59that felt like would have been a huge surprise and probably quite threatening to me. Because you felt that all of these people are being taken advantage of or being exploited, don't actually want to be there? I think it, especially like in my late teens and early 20s, like, yeah, it felt like that was an easier way to sort of just like slot this entity that felt threatening to me into this place of like, women are victims, this is disempowering. And a lot of that is just naivete. and being young and wanting that like totalizing theory to make me feel comfortable. Like being a little moralistic.

25:36Yeah, being moralistic. And same with esthetica. I mean, in my like late teens, I was super like plastic surgeries for bimbos. I was just like. Interesting. Yeah. I mean, I talks. Yeah. I say it openly. I'm a talkser. Dan's a proud talkser. Proud talkser. Anything else? They call that bro talks. Oh, yeah. I scrotox. smooth out your balls no you don't no i don't that's crazy i don't think that's a real thing um like it could be though i guess like in my head like the best argument i mean there's lots of arguments against porn sex work the whole thing but the idea that even if you consent in the moment you cannot take it back ever like it's just being copied over and over ad infinitum this thing that you did that you can't take back.

26:31And I think that's pretty compelling. That's what Winnie says. She says pictures last forever. Yeah, pictures last forever. And oh God, no one's told her about video. Right, well, at that point, well, I don't want to spoil anything. So. And now a quick word from our sponsor. At the Free Press, we're pretty obsessed with one big idea that most topics deserve more honesty and more depth than they're getting. So I want to tell you about a podcast that's doing exactly that. It's called Unpacking Israeli History. If you follow the news about Israel, you're getting headlines. But headlines are just a tiny slice of a long, complicated, and fascinating story without the depth or the context that you deserve.

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27:46I just think this idea of like a sex worker thinking or saying i have to see this thing that i don't want to exist i can never take it back yeah but that just feels true of everything like you said i mean i feel that definitely feel that way about stuff i've written yeah and it's just like i mean that like my first book i don't want to take it back but i have like a kind of a little bit of a fraught relationship with it and like. Jell Girls? Yeah. Why? It's so personal. It's a memoir. It's so personal and it was my first book I published. I didn't know a lot about what it means to put yourself out there that way and then like you know the story will never ever go away and that I would tell the story differently now than I did then.

28:35But I have to just be like that's okay. Like that book is a it's a time capsule it's a time in my life it's part of who i was then and so it's part of who i am now even if i would write it differently now i'm not writing it now so i just have to be okay with it can we still talk about it yeah we can talk about it it's called jello girls yeah it's about your life as an jello heiress yep yeah you're like well and jello is another american institution plastic surgery pornography jello these are great american institutions in that order in that order Exactly. The greatest exports. So talk to me about the jello curse.

29:14What is the jello curse? Well, in the book, it's sort of framed and my mom did believe in this as this sort of amorphous curse that impacted the women in her family. In the book, I sort of say like, but maybe the curse is just patriarchy um because you know she did have this idea of it but it felt very vague and it wasn't until I read I think in like an Adrienne Rich book where she defines patriarchy as this sort of invisible force that um has its fingers and everything and affects us all uh to varying degrees that I felt like oh okay this makes sense to me that's what my mother was describing but what the literally what she was describing was the fact that women in your family had benefited from this jello money but then had a string of bad husbands got sick what was the well it was actually presented to my mother as a kid as this uh curse that befell the men in the family there was a lot there were several suicides there was a lot of alcoholism and just like general misery um as oftentimes a comp a company's great wealth um great great wealth also i want to add i i believe your ancestor your grandfather your great grandfather it was my great great uncle by marriage okay still counts yeah bought the patent for jello for 450 yes from its inventor from its inventor yes which is like how manhattan was bought with like 15 bucks and a few shells or something you know i mean it's one of those it's a it's a striking oil it is just sort of stumbling upon this epic thing yes and he struggled to market the product and then sort of found it's his niche in traveling salesmen taking the product around to women at home and selling it to them as this sort of convenience food item that really took hold especially like during world war ii as like a food stretcher so you could like you know put some leftovers in jello and make a bigger meal out of it because it literally like expands um and you know those salads that you see where food is sort of floating in there it disguises like more volume less food yeah interesting oh my god jello also had a moment like 10 years ago where it like came back everywhere as a diet food as it no but like in like fine dining or like in like oh yeah restaurants like a dessert like i've seen i I see a lot of like these cube shots in jail, like a jello shot.

31:50That's like, and do you get paid every time I eat one of those? No, no. So my great, great, great uncle by marriage, order Francis Woodward sold jello in the twenties to craft. I forget for how much, because it's been a long time since I researched and wrote that book, but like, yeah. So that was sort of the end of like my like extended family's ties to it. But the marketing of Jell-O was this liberatory product. I mean, it has been. Yes, it's changed. Like, it's literally so malleable that – and as a, you know, marketing tool, it's like, yeah, it was a food stretcher in the 40s. And then it was like a diet food in the 50s.

32:32Sure. It was like cool, like, convenience product that helped housewives make fun stuff easier. And then – And now it's for a colonoscopy prep. Exactly. Now, yeah, now it's to give your dog pills. The Cosby moment. That's right. The Cosby moment. That was not Jell-O's best moment, I would say. No, definitely not. Yeah. So it's had many lives. Would Cosby put the drugs in the Jell-O and feed it to other people, or he just liked Jell-O? No, I think he was the spokesperson for Jell-O. He was the spokesperson for Jell-O. He sold Jell-O pudding pops primarily, I think, to kids. I've never had Jell-O.