Inside the Reality TV Machine with Sophia Rivka Rossi

0:00I don't think we should clap that loud in the presence of a shooting survivor. I don't like how casual you're being about this.

0:11Welcome back to Second Thought. I'm Suzy Weiss and we are here today with one Sophia Rivka Rossi. Sophia is a friend of the Free Press. She is a friend of mine. She is a friend of our co-host Dana Dute. And I wanted to bring her in because I consider her the real mayor of LA. Thank you. Sophia is a media entrepreneur, a girl boss, perhaps a recovering girl boss. We'll get into it. She started the media company Hello Giggles. She was a longtime television producer, which we'll also discuss. And whatever thing you're thinking about trying this week, is it acupuncture? Is it lymphatic drainage? Is it a past life regression?

0:47Sophia has done it and she will be honest with you about whether it works or not. I wanted to talk to Sophia about so much because really she understands and she intuits many aspects of our culture from entertainment to wellness to spirituality and she has very great takes. So Sophia, welcome to Second Thought. I am so happy to be here. This feels like you're exactly where you should be. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. I'm gonna do a really awesome transition here and ask you if you always wanted to be in show business. I actually was just thinking about this. I grew up in Beverly Hills not the rich part um and I went to Beverly Hills High and I loved Beverly Hills 90210 and I oh yeah and then I loved like Nancy Drew books and and um Babysitter's Club and I always wanted to be like whatever that was but showbiz no and I got really into music videos was my first internship oh interesting so like I sort of started in music videos and your first internship you were like 16 yeah 16 yeah I did a band apart and I did like Britney Spears videos and it was like yeah and you were hooked I just like felt like in production you sort of had this sense of control and that the talent was sort of like not important in this fun way yeah like oh they're not here yet who cares like you know like there was just like this energy that you felt important and I really liked that like level of control and like respect for what we were doing you've done so much it's hard to like decide what to focus on okay cool no in a good way because you were an assistant for Damon Dash.

2:14I was assistant for Damon Dash. Actually, we worked a lot in this building because he had a show on BET called The Ultimate Hustler. And there was a producer there that worked at MTV and then we did the hills through there. Okay, so the hills. Yeah. The hills and the city were all downstream of... Laguna. Laguna Beach. Yeah. And Laguna was the fictional thing and this was the real life thing, right? Well, Laguna was not fictional, but it was reality based on the OC. The OC, yes. Yeah. And so Liz Gately, one of the executives at MTV was like, I grew up in this area. I want to do like reality show based on that.

2:50And then when they were doing The Hills, they were like, we're moving to LA, who would know LA best? And so they created, it was like an early position called like a talent producer. And that was like early reality. And it basically means like you're a therapist to the talent and then you translate it to production. Oh, interesting. So you're like, what's up with you and Jason? Are you guys like dating still? And then you tell production like, I think they're going to break up. Book Koi. The restaurant. Yeah. What makes good reality TV? Someone who doesn't want to be on reality TV. Oh. Yeah. Someone who is like came in because of a friend, sort of happens to be there.

3:25If you like want to be on reality TV, like that's your first red flag. Oh, that's so interesting because I feel like so many people on reality TV now really want it. Yeah, but you can tell. you know like when we cast the city the reason Whitney was the star is because every time we would do these interviews they'd be like I'm kind of the Audrina or like I'm kind of the Lauren I was like okay this is not gonna work like we need to like follow someone but I think like Rachel Zoe is a perfect example of someone who's great on reality tv because she is being herself yeah like it is not clear like she happens to be housewives and she's doing it so beautifully but like this is there's not a desperation in her she's sort of like yeah my friends are all doing it this was like the right time in life to do something like this yeah it doesn't she's great for reality tv I would put Kathy Hilton in that bucket and I would put um Bethany Frankel you have to have something else going on and that this only increases it if you're like I will get on the show and this is like my big opportunity the desperation is like really hard to watch if you're always being the character doing the plot points it's like not gonna work for you so what was like a normal day I assume your Blackberry woke you up around 2007.

4:29We shot like four scenes a day. They pre-lit for like 40 minutes. So that's why it was sort of produced and it looked so beautiful. My job was to like pick locations. Yeah. That was my big thing. And they knew nothing. They also weren't from LA. And I'm like, it's your birthday? Okay, great. You will be going to Sunset Tower or like things like that. Oh, that's a really good one. And then honestly, the thing that I think about the most that's like honestly kind of messed up is they paid for themselves for a really long time. Like you had like three dinners a day. Like that was kind of crazy to make them pay, but we wanted it to be real.

4:59Did this like kind of screw with your sense of reality to produce reality? It was really hard. I can't watch reality now. At all? Because I can hear ADR like. What's ADR? It's like additional recording. Like we're like if camera's not on you and you need to get a talking point, you'll say like what time is dinner? And like they just like add things. Oh, weird. So I can't watch reality. And we have a famous thing that I did not invent, but I'm really proud of. And I think people still do it in reality is room tone. okay okay room tone is when let's say we're sitting right here and like a producer says okay let's sit for room tone you can't talk and you just sit and stare but because you're staring you kind of get like bored and you make like mean faces or something and then you take those reaction shots from room tone and makes it look like any million things this is the Jewish girls equivalent of finding out Santa Claus at some real yeah I gotta tell you room tone whenever you see someone like give a glare you're like they were probably annoyed at production for like making them sit Like they're not like really mad at that person, but you can just insert.

5:58And the editors of reality TV are the pure comedic geniuses. They don't get enough credit. Oh, they're unbelievable. They're unbelievable. That's what a real house, that's what Real Housewives is. You're watching an amazing edit. They're incredible. So reality TV, this was like one of, it wasn't real world. It wasn't that early, but it was very early in the reality TV universe, I would say. Yeah. Like the first five years. Yeah. Before Bravo kind of went crazy. before politics sort of also became reality TV, before everything sort of became reality TV. I'm just curious, while you were working on it, did you anticipate that it would take over the world?

6:33It's a really good question. I think I did based on how uncomfortable I was. I think there was a phase where there are follow shows or there's real world where the cameras are on 24-7 and you're editing, but then certain things you're witnessing them do like we went to Heidi Montag's like doctor's appointments and like saw her get surgery like things like art things that were right peeping into her real life and sort of then witnessing them being famous and I was like okay this is like something we're not going to be able to really like control anymore and it made me really uncomfortable and that's why I want it was not scripted but it was well produced I think and so after I left the hills I really wanted to get into scripted but everyone thought it was coming from reality so like I did a bunch of freelance stuff I did like one cycle of America's Top Model like I did like a bunch of random things to then end up at like Glee which was very scripted I mean we will be speaking about Glee because I think you have some things to answer for there but I'm curious before we get to Glee there's been a lot of kind of like looking back at like America's Next Top Model oh I love the doc oh really I didn't see it yeah our call my colleague river page had a really good piece about it but when you look back at like the reality tv industrial complex and like how could we do that part of me is like you knew in the moment that it was a little bit exploitative or that there was some kind of like well I'm gonna perform for you and kind of give you drama as a byproduct of that but I'm curious if you've thought about like the reckoning of those early years of television well I don't think we knew I mean I only did one they call them cycles not seasons because there were so many but I only did one of Top Model and I remembered it was sort of like remember Road Rules Challenge like yeah they were about the challenges like I feel like a lot of the production for us was there was like can they go to the Santa Monica Ferris wheel and take a photo while it paused and you're like you were it was so technical yeah and so I don't think people thought about like them as individuals you know I think it was sort of like the talent in that way and often I think the hardest thing is if you're in reality you are not respected as talent like you are just absolutely not like you are a product of the editors and of the producers but if you're on a scripted show talent is everything so they are like worship so before we get to glee one of your one of your cast members on the hill spencer pratt is doing surprisingly well in the la mayoral election polls a little bit of news you can use a recent you at ucla poll found uh karen bass the current are leading at 25 % followed by Pratt at 11 % and 40 % of voters are undecided.

9:09I am not surprised in any way. Really? No. Are you going to vote for him? I don't know yet. Okay. But not because of anything of like I need to learn more and I feel like it's happening so fast. First of all, so little people come out to vote. Yeah, that's true. So true. It's kind of like and it's not like it's happening in June and half people know about it. But I will say this. Once the fires happened and And I actually loved his – I love his sister Stephanie and I love his family. Like they have wonderful parents who lost their home. I saw him like online like everyone else did. And he was like visibly very upset and very much gathering information to sort of make sense of it all.

9:47So I'm not surprised he got this far. I think what is similar is like because he's on reality TV, he knows how to work social media so quickly. right and what is a little bit like he's so fast in a way that no one else can be he makes whatever he wants happen though so I would say that is very possible that he could win and every day someone else says to me I think I'm gonna vote for Spencer I think I'm Spencer so I'm very like not surprised that this is happening but it will change the vibe of LA in sort of a show man businessy way which might be good I mean the Olympics are coming we need to have a forward facing situation I feel like this is like having a celebrity as a mayor and I city council from my understanding has a lot more like effect and so I think that if it's like about the narrative of the city and if he's saying all the right figurehead position yeah I think he's saying all the right things and he's really coming from a place of like pain you know and having experienced LA so I'm not surprised it's just actually also crazy well when you were producing him he would have been 20 21 years old yeah he was an LA kid though so I we had crossover in ways off camera they were only four years younger than me but I used to call them the kids yeah so he was sort of an interesting one because once he came on the show he was so savvy about producing that it sort of changed the show for good and also for difficulty in some ways he was managing up a little bit he knew what we were doing and he was sort of like less it wasn't even naive he was just like what do you need for me?

11:21What do you want? And like that works but you also need a little bit of like relaxed vibes in it and those were real relationships that people were having. And you need a little naivete. You need a little naivete and I think he was like knew what would be good TV and it worked. So if you looked at the cast of The Hills and you were like choose who would be the next mayor of LA you knew it would be Spencer. Yeah after Trump being president yeah I'd be like for sure. After you produced The Hills and The City. Yeah. You went from reality TV as you said to scripted TV this little show called Glee.

11:51Sofia Rivkarasi on the charge of making theater kids cool nationally. How do you play? I play like surprised. You know like I would say the gift of Ryan and Murphy and Ian and Brennan and Brad Falchuk is that they thought it was cool you know and that the room was like they would pick a song. Basically, a lot of the work on Glee is you did song to show. You hear a fun song, you think that could be really placed well in a storyline. One that was actually big is I got really into watching Catfish. Oh, I love that show. Yeah. Shout out to Eve Shulman. And there was like two dads in the group that were like, had come from like a doctor show.

12:33And I was telling them all about Catfish. And they were like, that would be a really great storyline. So there was like a three episode arc on Catfish. Like that would be like the kind of things that you'd bring to the table. I mean, Glee was appointment viewing. yeah yeah I think people like still re-watch it a lot oh my god it was huge yeah so you worked with Ryan Murphy on that show he is a vice grip on television in addition to Glee he made American Horror Story he made Pose and of course love story about JFK Jr. and Carolyn Bissette Kennedy loved you watched it yeah you did it I watched the pilot I just wasn't into it the Max Winkler directed it okay who's like a friend but also I think he did 90s so well I loved it what is Ryan Murphy so good at?

13:13What's like his secret sauce? Because it just hit after hit. He was a journalist and he's really good at being curious and that means he is curious about anything. He wants to know. We used to play a game called What Do You Know? Before every writer's thing you could make up. A game called What Do You Know? It was a writer's room game. It's like What Do You Know? And I'd be like they have changed the outfits at Sunset Tower today. And he was like tell me more. What do you know? Like he just wants to know. Like gossip? You could call it gossip but like it's truly can be anything yeah you know what I mean and so I think that's the thing is like I could tell them that right now I bet you if I could make up a what do you know you know and it's like Alex Earl and Alex Cooper are fighting like right okay yeah say more what happened he just wants to know and I think that curiosity is like enticing to like a viewer because it's like clear that he's like really making them like salacious characters what historical event should Ryan Murphy do next I feel like it's going to be like Elizabeth Taylor and her husband.

14:11He loves old Hollywood. He once had me watch the acceptance speech of Patty Duke in the 1955 Emmys. And he was like, isn't this not incredible? Oh, he's a freak. He's a real freak. Yeah, he's the coolest. But yeah, I guess I would say nothing too modern. Ooh, Marilyn Monroe. Marilyn Monroe, yeah. Probably told from a very unique angle that we haven't seen. I don't believe in wearables or anything that you use to track my sleep. I just believe in having a good bed. And your bed deserves the best. And might I recommend Cozy Earth Sheets? Their bamboo sheets, made from VSCO from bamboo, have totally changed the way I sleep.

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15:32Okay after you left Glee Yeah You started a media company I started it from Glee Okay Yeah Called Hello Giggles It was a female focused comedy and lifestyle website And now you have a sub stack Yeah Called Between Friends Which everyone needs to subscribe to It is so good And I feel as though the platform really suits you You know I actually Thank you for saying that I think the platform really suits people From my generation in that time Because I think the Jezebel the sort of refinery 29 hello giggles moment thought catalog which sort of like rose from the tumblr era yes I would like yeah I was big on tumblr I really loved that nothing to do with that audience now I'm like what do I do with these followers what was your tumblr blog called bff productions bff productions oh my god I love this I would just like repost like glee memes and stuff but um I think sub stack is for the person who is over the algorithm of of Instagram and doesn't want to actually see what their friends are doing and they want to see like hear like smart interesting stories like I'm like having the best time.

16:36Your sub stack it's called between friends there's musings advice recommendations really good recommendations you know the health and wellness space and that's because you've been around the block and this ain't your first rodeo. I'm living the dream. What are some of the things that you've tried? okay I've tried Hoffman process same the Hoffman process is like a week long um they call it 90 hours of therapy or 40 years of therapy in eight days when you're serious about change and yeah when you're serious about change is the tagline that was like being very big in LA circles very big um I've done psychics I've done healers um so many healers you've written I've tried everything every acupuncture needle in California has jab me I've worshipped every crystal yeah I've done And like every cleanse.

17:20Okay. The thing is, if you grow up in LA, it's very California. It's like a hobby. Right. It's like fun. I don't know. What else do you want me to do? Like it's like I did a Zedbik really early. Like it was just like that's what you do. Ayahuasca? No, thanks. Throwing up is like – Is that your line? I run nauseous. Like I really do think that women are either – Some people run hot. Some people run cold. Some people run nauseous. No, I really think that people either are headache girls or tummy ache girls. and I am a tummy ache girl. Okay. My stomach always hurts. Okay. So I'm not trying to like throw up and do ayahuasca.

17:52Can I read you another thing you wrote? I used to outsource my inner life to whatever sounded the most certain. Vision boards, affirmations, crystals, a woman on TikTok who just knew. That girl had to go. I laid it all down and gave it to God fully. What does that look like? I love God, Hashem. I... That to me... Anytime I'm trying to like go backwards in like an addict-y way and like book a psychic, I'm like, can I just like go to prayer? And I talk to God out loud. And then I feel like sort of relieved. I love a higher power. I just got into space. I love that like - Oh yeah, you love space.

18:28I'm moved. I did not know we were on a planet. I'm serious. Yeah. No, it's - Until Artemis. I'm unwell. No, I really, I was like, I don't know, we're just here. Like I'm trying to like, I'm like a soul. Like don't bother me with my location. And then like Artemis, beyond loss. So I just believe - You like became more in the universe almost. I like grounded. Like your physical triangulation was established. Yeah. I'm like we are part of like infinity. There is no there then. So like I don't need to like kind of fix myself because like it's infinite. Would you go to space? No. Okay. Interesting.

19:01I think it's so amazing and brave that the Artemis crew did that. I do hope young people do want to go. But I don't want to go. Do you want to go? No. Yeah. That's not for girls. Okay. Do you want to talk about some big stories of the week? Yeah.

19:18That's a fucking call. That was really loud. That's how you clap. Jeez Louise. Okay, I don't think you should clap that loud in the presence of a shooting survivor. I don't like how casual you're being about this. Oh, really? Wait, let me just set it up for a second. Guys, have you ever survived an act of shooting? Me? Yes, I have. Last weekend. It's unacceptable that you are being casual about this. I read your piece in the free press. I sobbed at the idea of you and your sister in the same room not being able to get to each other. I thought it was so upsetting. And I'm like, you acting like this is like some casual thing is psychotic.

19:51And I need to ground you. I disagree. I think she's doing the right thing. She's glossing over it. She's moving on. She's going to be stronger. You want her to go to therapy for 30 years and talk about her trauma? I don't want to go to therapy. I do want a 501c3. Yeah. Nonprofit. You weren't freaked out at all? I was incredibly freaked out for 20 seconds. Okay. And then the next two hours, we were like being in a movie version of Veep because you just like saw like all these people kind of like milling about and taking selfie videos. I mean, and it sort of undid the terror that you felt. Right.

20:21People like taking the wine bottles. Yeah, the taking of the wine bottles. And like I said to Dan. Dan would take a wine bottle. Oh, my God. I would take all the wine bottles. No, it was horrible wine. I'd take the flowers. I mean, there were tears of wine apparently. But yes, I'm going to – Tear to your eye or no? Tear to my eye, no. I was shaky. I was shaky. Yeah. Have you ever been in a situation like that? No. It was so weird. I was in a weird situation recently in a subway where everyone started running in the subway car. And then we all started running. And we were like, what's going on?

20:49And no one knew. And we were all just running like idiots through subway cars. And no one figured out why? No. And then we got out. Within the subway? Within the subway. Oh, that's weird. And we all thought someone was coming towards us. I get stuck in an elevator and I'm like, I'm going to kill myself. Any situation that's stressful, I don't think I could handle. Well, I guess we should lead with this one, which is that a gunman opened fire near a security checkpoint at the White House Correspondents' Dinner this past weekend. One Secret Service agent was hit in protective gear, and it was friendly fire.

21:16And the suspect, whose name is Cole Allen, a 31-year-old from Torrance, California, was arrested. And I was there. Yes. I was there. It's so crazy that you were there. In fact, I looked at my text, and I texted you right away. WTF? You good? Oh, yes. I actually really appreciated that because there was sort of a moment where I went to text a few people like, I'm okay. And then I was like, why haven't they texted me? No one wrote, are you okay? Dan did. Oh, you know who your friends are if they checked on you. You really know who your friends are. Well, this is the argument to have you back on Find Friends.

21:46It's time to get back. Oh, I... Yeah, you're an anti-fan addict. We follow each other. We follow each other. Do you guys check it? I think it's sick. Well, I know. It's my favorite app. I think it's the best app around. I love Find Friends. Dan puts his on shadiness sometimes and I know what he's doing. Oh my god. Oh my god. I'm on blast. Yeah. Sometimes it's like not a veil. I'm like where are you? Okay. You disable it for specific times in your life? Where are you going? Sometimes I think when he's traveling he doesn't want us to know. Oh! Wait. You guys have like a whole new relationship different relationship level that I don't understand.

22:19Let's talk about something lighter. The active shooter. Yeah yeah yeah. Great call. Maybe someone should have had him on fine my friends. I would have been this scenario. I'm really upset about the casualness of it but I I will, I'll go along. So I think there's a casualness because no one saw anything terrifying. There was no, there was no blood. Literally. Did you hear it? I didn't know what I was hearing though initially. I just thought it was like really loud bangs and then I was being pushed onto the floor and then I was like, oh, that's totally a shooter. Wait, who pushed you again? Elliot Ackerman, my hero.

22:49Dad? Well, there were so many vets in the room that like they kind of, and I wrote in my piece, they sort of like had like a sparkle in their eye. Like they were ready. They were kind of scanning the exits and, you know, narrating what was going to people who were freaking out. It was sort of, I mean, it wasn't a combat situation. How long were you stuck in that room for? Well, you couldn't really leave and the president wanted it to continue. So then there was sort of this moment of like, is the show going to go on? And like, realistically, I think maybe it should have. But they said they're going to reschedule it for the next 30 days.

23:22So we'll see. I thought his reaction was so funny. Because it was like the third, this was the third time that they're coming. He's like the 50 cent of presidents. Like they're just trying to go. And this time he was just so nonchalant. He was sitting there. He's like, bring it on. Let's go. Like he just wasn't getting up. He is sort of like zen about it. Yeah. But it was. Melania did not seem zen. No, she was shared. No, she was flipped out. Yeah. She was flipped out. Yeah, as she should be. I mean, it was super scary. As she should be and Susie's not. Did you read the manifesto? No. It is like such a bad manifesto.

23:50Really? Like if you're going to do this, come on. I'm surprised. He's Caltech. I would think it would be. and he's teacher of the year or something. Wasn't he teacher of the month? It started, hey, everybody. And it was like, just go do stand up. You know what I mean? Like, it's fine. But yeah, that was scary and shouldn't have happened. But thank God everyone's OK. Yeah. I know. I'm just trying to see what I can get out of it. I mean, we just launched the podcast. We can't lose you yet. OK? I cried. I'm sorry. I was like. You did? When I read your piece, I was like so upset. I don't know. There was like a visual of like you and Barry trying to like get to each other.

24:22Like that really got me. Like if your family's in there and like you're sort of not next to her and like. Right. What if she has to be ushered out? Like you don't like. Like I don't know. I know. I was like this. This will teach you not to put me in the nosebleeds next time, babe. I need to be. I need to be near you. Well, no wife's behind. Sounds like she. It sounds like she made sure that you were OK. OK. In addition to the shooting, there is something that we love on this podcast is talking about global box office numbers. It's something you should know. Box office mojo over here. The Michael Jackson movie.

24:51Michael set a record for the highest grossing opening weekend for a biopic that means it did better than Elvis it did better than Oppenheimer it did better than the Bohemian Rhapsody one I want to dance with somebody the Whitney Houston one earning 219 million dollars globally in its debut weekend amazing exciting very exciting yeah have you seen it I haven't seen it I'm very excited to see it. I love that it's his nephew. Yeah. I think that's good vibes and I think people should be going to the movies more. So I love it. I love that it wasn't on streaming. I thought that was exciting and it sounds like it's like, you know, they talk about like windows, like how long it'll be in theaters.

25:31It feels like it'll stay in theaters for enough time that people will want to see it. So I love it. What's Jafar going to do after this? Jafar is the name of the nephew. Well, there is going to be a sequel, a trequel, a quadruple. I mean, this movie, like tour So he's just going to keep playing Michael forever? By the way, they should tour. Glee did a tour off that. He should definitely do live shows. Oh, yeah. That's actually a really good point. Do you feel any hesitation to see it because of the subject matter and the fact that the family estate got final cut? I'm okay with the family estate getting final cut.

26:04I guess— It makes it a different thing, though. It does make it a different thing. Well, it's their family, though. But you're understanding that you're seeing it exactly how they would want you to see it. Well, they stopped it in 1988. which is how they want you to see it there's some things that happened after 1988 well they had to reshoot that part originally yeah they had it starting in the 90s and they had michael jackson they had the police coming to get evidence for jordan chandler after he accused him of sexual assault to get evidence for it and then i guess no one knew that part of the chandler family settlement was that the story wouldn't be dramatized so they had to spend 15 million dollars to reshoot act three and the one the version in theaters the one that i saw it ends in 1988 at the height of the bad tour but they also do make a lot of sort of i don't want to bet on their provoking decisions but there's like five scenes of him hanging out with kids in pediatric cancer wards and it's like you could have had no interactions with him and a child i mean i probably couldn't reshoot that yeah that feels like yeah they could have cut it but or they could have not written it in the first place but they really focused in on his love of animals he had the snake he had the llama he had the giraffe he had bubbles of course uh the famous monkey yeah and he you know his you know how his giving relationship and sort of attachment to children but it's sort of like well guys like i don't know i guess but i'm also like that's the story the family wants to tell like there can be nine other i mean there's nine million movies about elvis at this point i'm like happy it did well i think that's like a good sign for biopics Yeah, I think that's fair.

27:40Yeah, I think it's fair. I also think that there's a scale. If you're talented enough and your art is good enough, then we can deal with the other stuff. Well, that's what I was thinking about after I saw it, which is like the level of mass appeal, adoration, obsession that Michael Jackson generates is commiserate with the level of grotesqueness of the crimes he's accused of doing. Right. You know what I mean? Like everyone's happy to throw Jeffrey Epstein out. What did he do for me? I didn't dance to Jeffrey Epstein's song at my cousin's wedding. I never shimmied. No shimmying. But it's like every celebration, the soundtrack to it, is a Michael Jackson song.

28:17And we're just not willing to let it go. There's no crime he could be committed of that we'd say, okay, now we've got to take him off the airwaves. It's interesting because I don't think that's how – like Kanye, I think we were willing to let him go. Bill Cosby, willing to let him go. Yeah, these are populist figures. Both super talented. But Michael Jackson is just like – it doesn't matter what comes out. He's untouchable. like an international I mean also I think that the empathy for that for what he went through as a child and like you really like he he was he was fucked up in the head and I think that we all kind of feel he felt so childlike so I feel like there is this like level of being like what where was he at mentally and I mean I watched the doc that I felt like leaving Neverland yeah I felt like that was that was compelling that was so compelling and so I feel like knowing that part of the story I feel like I watched that story.