Scooter Braun on Taylor Swift, Kanye West, and Becoming the Internet’s Villain

26:07You mean the apology? Yeah. And if he and I ever talk between us, we'll have our own conversation. I want to always believe people you know have an opportunity to have salvation and growth and as much as I was very much upset because my family was in the Holocaust and some of the things he said were incredibly inappropriate like that he is a Nazi for example a lot of things he said were very frustrating that's the reason you know probably we haven't spoken in a very long time I know it is for me but but I also do want to believe that you know I was part of a movie a long time ago I got to be a producer certain movie called Burden, which is a true story about a Klans member who found salvation through a black pastor and grew and changed.

26:56And I'm not comparing this situation to that one, but I believe that's a really great, beautiful story about giving people the opportunity for growth. And I think that I know myself, I've grown in certain situations and have wanted you know, people to give me, you know, empathy and an opportunity for growth, then I think it wouldn't be right to not extend it to someone else. That is very big of you, especially considering Kanye has said things like Jewish people have owned the black voice through vehicles like being signed to a record label or having a Jewish manager. I completely disagree with everything that's been said.

27:31Right. But I also know from my own personal experience, he was dealing with a lot of mental health issues. And like I said, do I have to trust in this moment that the apology is real? I haven't had the experience myself personally yeah personally but do I I want to give anyone the benefit of the doubt but there was nothing in the moment like during the tour for example where he is hospitalized where you're like this actually isn't a case of an overworked artist this is something no no Kanye and he's spoken about this I don't want to go into this I don't want to tell someone else's story but he's spoken about you know his struggles with mental health and my experience was that he was really going through those struggles where do you stand on separating the art from the artist?

28:10Well, I think we'd have a real hard time with art if every single time you want to look at the person too. I think that you have a certain responsibility that we have to, if someone is creating such harmful messages, I think if you as a community have a responsibility to say, okay, you can make the choice to not participate in that person's art. And I've done that before. Who if? I'm not going to go into that. Okay. But I've removed myself when I've been disappointed by the messaging of someone or disappointed by their actions. But I also think if you look at through the history of music and art and these different things, a lot of people that we love have made very questionable decisions.

28:50And I think that's a decision you have to make within your own life and what you want to bring into your home and to your family of, you know, what you want to show. It's such an intimate thing. Yeah. But that's art. I think the most important thing is not making decisions on people based on the masses. I think that's something I've learned because of my own personal experience. Like we were talking earlier, you know, you know, my name is like the conspiracy theory of everything that goes wrong sometimes on the Internet. And having that experience when I'm like, this is a Google search away from you knowing the truth.

29:23Like you could literally do research for a day and know the truth. But people kind of they run with, oh, I heard or I did this. especially in the TikTok generation where I've realized when I finally was like I just want to look at what this TikTok thing is I realized it's just a place of just people just make everything up the more sensational the more clicks so I think that my own personal experience of being attacked taught me to have more empathy for those being attacked this is the Taylor Swift dispute over the master recordings you become a part you become the boogeyman of the music industry and a lot has come out about the feud and the TikTok and overnight.

30:03Yeah, it was like it went from being like loved and appreciated for over a decade to literally the next night. You're the villain. Correct. And it was at a time, I think, especially where the allegation was the conviction. If enough people said, hey, I think this, even if it was. I'm going to say something on your podcast that I don't know if people know about that. And I don't want to go into that. That's the past. But I will say something that will really sum it up. And I don't know if I've ever really said. I don't know Taylor Swift. I think I've met her in my life three times. I have never had a substantial conversation with her in my life.

30:39I one time got invited to a private party by her. She told me she had the utmost respect for me. I told her I had the utmost respect for her. You don't spend$300 million buying a label that she's on unless you're excited at the opportunity to work with her. I will never truly understand that situation to this day. I wish her nothing but the best I learned a tremendous amount from it I chose to grow from it I'm grateful for it at this point in my life but I think there's a this big misconception that like we knew each other we had this feud and like you know I managed her for years and people are usually shocked to find out that I legitimately don't know her and didn't have many interactions with her and never really knew her and I think like I said I think I met her three times in my life and I I think I spoke to her really once for like more than two minutes, but it was a very nice conversation.

31:30And beyond that, nothing ever. And then the three years prior to us buying big machine, she and I had no contact. I think it was two years. The party was like two years earlier, three years earlier, and then never had any contact through the whole thing. So I'm just as confused that this is part of my life as you are, but, but I, but I choose to learn and grow from it. I think you were sort of a convenient villain. in a lot of ways. And it was sort of used to kind of say, there's these pure innocent artists and they're exploited by the evil machine. What do people, fans, misunderstand about the interaction between artists and the music industry?

32:08Labels make bets on artists and they own the master and then artists own their publishing. I think artists, there are a lot of transactions on publishing because artists end up selling their publishing, whether they need the money or decide they want to sell or different things. And the labels are very, very well funded. So they don't have to transact the masters. The masters don't really trade hands. The majority to this day of masters are still owned by labels. You know, as confusing as to me, I think what it did bring to light is that artists are going to start wanting to own their masters.

32:35And I think you're seeing artists more and more do that. And I think that's great. It's going to be interesting to see what happens to the universals and the warners and the Sony's in the years to come, because the majority of their income comes from the ownership of those masters. And I think the new artist deals more and more asking for ownership of masters and i think as these are publicly traded companies i wonder without the ownership of those catalogs in the future if it's worth it to invest in the artist in the first place or what those companies become and how the street starts to value them um and then can they make investments if they don't have that same you know value in the future and i think the industry will grow and change but i think the industry is always growing and changing i think now you're seeing suno and ai pop up and you're seeing all these different things and at one point they told me it was a dead industry you can't sell cds anymore and then it was mp3s and then it was streaming and you know and now you know it's it's technology is always changing art um at least the commerce of art and uh or even the production of art and i think it's fun and exciting for people to watch i think i'm just less interested in it these days Really?

33:42Yeah. I think that was a big part of my life for a long time, and I think I'm excited to be in a new chapter. And did it also feel like when you were 20, you were like, well, I'm getting the MySpace account. I understand this. I'm native to it, and you're not native to TikTok. Correct. I think it's a youth-driven industry, and I think that I am no longer the youth. And I think that I still love making music and being a part of music and A &Ring. What's A &Ring? Kind of helping artists find the songs, develop the songs, produce the songs. I got to work on this project with Jungkook from BTS, and that solo project, that was a lot of fun.

34:20We had the record Seven and a bunch of other records, and Andrew Watt produced that, who I worked with for many, many years managing, and he just did the Rolling Stones album just now. Like I said, it was a big part of my life for a long time, and I was happy to close the door on that and focus on other parts of my life, and I wanted to feel like a rookie again. I felt like the first part of my career was I was this young guy with these big ideas and people were like hungry hungry and also people rooting for the underdog. And I think the point once we started having success for a long time, it went from can we get this number one to if you don't get number one, you lose.

34:55And that starts to get to a place where you're not really enjoying it. You're maintaining it. And and I always had a lot of respect for Jamie Iveen where he was always at the height of one part of his career and he would literally close the door. He was the biggest producer in the world. he closed the door and started Interscope, stopped producing cold turkey. And then he built Interscope and he's like, I'm going to build beats. And then he built beats and like, he always kept the excitement going for himself by finding a new adventure. And opening himself up to failure. Completely. Can comedians still joke about the Middle East?

35:27Are people less committed to religion now? And most importantly, is it ever okay to toast a fresh bagel? These are the kinds of questions being pondered on Wondering Jews with Michal and Noam. Hosts Michal Bitten and Noam Weissman are two bold voices in the Jewish community. They're intellectual, provocative, and deeply curious. If you've ever been to a chaotic and loud Passover Seder, this show will probably remind you of that. And there's always a seat at the table for someone interesting, like New York Times columnist Brett Stevens or author Sarah Horwitz. It's smart without being stuffy and joyful without being shallow.

35:58Whether you're deeply observant, totally secular, or not Jewish at all, this show will probably have something you'll love to disagree with. Search wandering jews with michal and noam on spotify apple podcasts or youtube and grab the link in our show notes when you say that part of your life sort of obviously is in the past i see the fulcrum of it or a fulcrum of it as you deciding to go to this place called the hoffman institute and you you've spoken about feeling out of control your whole life you're strategizing you're maneuvering you're able to kind of operate and kind of come out on top and for the first time around 2020, you start to feel out of control and it's taking a toll on your marriage.

36:38And you go to this place where the tagline is when you're serious about change. And you go to a place like that with big questions. Why aren't I happy? Who am I? I have all the success. And you know, what questions did you go with? Man, I was so deeply lost when I went into that place. two, three weeks before I went into Hoffman, I had a suicidal thought. Um, I was, you know, one of the biggest managers in the world and had all this success and made all these investments and had the wife and the kids, but my marriage was falling apart at the time. I didn't understand why, um, I was dealing with all the, you know, the shift of being loved to being the villain and being attacked.

37:23And I kind of like lived through that. But like when I was losing my marriage, It was like that I couldn't comprehend. Like I couldn't, couldn't handle the idea of like not being with my kids all the time. I thought, well, if I can't be with my kids all the time, then I haven't achieved the goal. And I worked so hard for that. I don't want to be here. And for 20 minutes, I wanted to take my own life. And then it passed, excuse me, it passed. And, um, it was, I was like, man, that was really scary. What the hell was that? And, um, the next day I woke up and I was, uh, in an Ariana Grande music video and you were in the video.

37:56No, no, I was a manager, so I was there. I was now on the video. And I think we were doing like Dangerous Woman or something like that. I think it would have been Positions. Yes, you're right. It was Positions. And we had, you know, the Manchester attack had happened, and we had done the One Love Manchester concert and kind of all this stuff we had done, you know, together. So they had seen, you know, her and her mom and her brother, they'd seen me and, you know, I'd seen them like in very intimate moments. But I was really broken. And everyone was kind of giving me space because they could feel I was broken.

38:26And I've told this story, but I've never said who. And I actually asked him recently, the next time I tell the story, can I say who it was? I get a phone call from a friend, and he said, hey, I just wanted to check on you. I know last time we spoke, you seemed to be going through something. And it was Josh Kushner from Thrive Capital. And he asked me what I was going through, and I kind of explained to him. And I opened up, and I told Josh that I had had this suicidal thought the night before. And he said, you need to go to Hoffman. And he called me back with Penny Thau, who worked for me for years.

38:56who now works with Pharrell. And the two of them had done Hoffman. And they were like, you need to go. And I started talking to Josh alone again. And I was like, listen, I need something more intense. And what's going to do in a week? And he said, you can't manipulate it. And Josh is one of the smartest friends I have on the planet. He's got a big heart, but he's just absolutely brilliant. And you can see that now as one of the world's best investors. And he said, I couldn't manipulate it. And I thought that was so fascinating that someone as intelligent as him couldn't go in there for a week and figure it out.

39:24and I just said and win it and win it and I said Josh I want that whatever that is I'll do it I'll surrender and three weeks later I went in I'd never given up my phone in 20 years since I started working when I was 19 I gave up my phone for a week no phone no email when I got out I didn't turn my phone back on for two months I literally got a burner phone to talk to six people to run my business and my life changed and when I went in there I never liked my name Scott I only liked my name Scooter. And when I left there, I loved my name. And I realized the reason I didn't love my name is that I built this character Scooter to be bigger and stronger than the little kid Scott to take on the world.

40:02I didn't trust myself. And when I left there, I realized that little kid, Scott, actually created this character. And it was time for me to be back in charge. And what's very interesting for me, it just happened recently, a couple weeks ago, someone who had been around me through all the years of like the scooter brawn of it. You know, the success, this, that. But they hadn't really been around me since I went as often and my life changed. And, you know, retired and all these different things. And he was talking to me and he was like, I've never, like, I didn't realize how genuine, like, this is you.

40:38And I said, yeah, I don't think you ever met me before. I think you just saw a guy who was constantly working, constantly moving, who was in kill, kill, kill mode of like, we got to build, we got to protect, we got to build, we got to protect. spin play it's like i gotta i gotta help you gotta do this and my by value comes from you know everyone else telling me i'm enough and then suddenly at that place i found out that i was enough and that that kid scott was enough and that you know i remember there was a moment i don't like you know i'm not supposed to talk about what happens there but i can say this there was a moment where um everyone was asked to write down they no one who i was at that point like you go by different names and everyone has to write down like adjectives of like what they think of this person and I'm like oh god like they're gonna I've been with these people for a week but they're gonna see the worst of me and they're gonna and these people started writing the most beautiful things about me and I realized and they didn't know you're you know this fancy person and I realized that I had built up this character to think I was enough but just being myself was getting the words I always dreamed someone would say about me and I broke down crying in front of all these people because I realized how much it meant to me for them to see me that way.

41:49And I realized that I had so many people in my life that did see me that way that I wasn't letting in. And that place changed my life forever. And to be seen separate from your accomplishments or your job. To know you're enough without them. And now you can just go, you know, be a part of it. When you get out of there, is this, is that the seed for, I will have to walk away from management? Yeah. When I got out of there, I knew it was a matter of time. I realized that I was so So, and I want to say this first. I am so deeply honored and grateful that I got to manage and be around some of the most incredible, talented people on the planet.

42:27I do not take that for granted whatsoever. And I will forever be grateful that I got to be near and a part of their stories. And then I got to a certain point in my life where I realized it was time to tell my own story. It was time to live my own life. And not like, oh, I need to do my own thing or promote. it was more, I hadn't really looked at myself. I was so, what made me a good manager is I was so desperately dependent on everyone else's approval that if I got the artist's approval and their fans got their, you know, I got their approval, then people, you know, I've been like transcend like through the transitive property, you were getting the adoration of the fans.

43:01If I made them great and they're loved, then I was enough. And what I realized at the end of it was that, you know, that place helped me realize that we're all enough already. I tell my kids all the time. I love you unconditionally, no matter what I could be disappointed, but it doesn't mean I don't love you for exactly who the, who you are right now. You're enough. And I think that place helped me understand it. Other things that I did later on, as I continue to do work and you're always doing work, you know, help me understand that. And I really think that that was a chapter in my life where I realized like, it's a matter of time before this, this isn't for me anymore.

43:38it was almost like your anxiety about being enough fueled you to be able to pack the stadiums in get the you know huge contracts to everything like you know terror stack and he went to do the next day like it was like you know and and i luckily i was working with the most talented people in the world who were also brave you know to go on this journey with but i think it got to a point where um i got out of there and i just realized it was a matter of time and and i think they realized it too when they saw the difference the difference meaning you come out and you're like the tickets will sell or they won't i mean in certain ways yes i was still like yeah yeah to a certain extent i was very i was in a different place and um and i think that what was interesting is when i was like okay i'm retiring like i'm done with this i had a dream that was like everyone's gonna think there's a scandal and this and because those were always my fears of walking away and the dream said it's going to get wild it's going to get crazy everyone's going to say it's a literal dream it was a dream literally a dream i told my best friend jay this and he thought i was crazy and then it happened two weeks later and he's like oh shit and i said it's going to act crazy but if i don't do anything if i let it just all burn down around me and i have a tattoo of that also there's it's going to be okay and for two weeks the press was like there must be a scandal there must be this everyone's like everyone's walking everyone's leaving and meanwhile i just told everyone like this chapter's ending everything but like people couldn't get their head around that and like one of the artists had told me the same thing hey things have changed I can see it in you like it's time to go separate ways and I realized that was the catalyst they're right and and it was like crazy but then two weeks later there was no scandal there was nothing and then it just died away and then you know I think six months later when the contracts were all cleaned up and everything else I was legally allowed to announce actually I just retired and that wasn't exciting.

45:24You know, that wasn't like, nobody wants to talk about that. And I understand that. When you had the trappings of success, there was a lot of anxiety under that. Yeah. And then when it all flipped and everyone turned on you and you became the villain, you kind of became happier than you've ever been. Is that accurate? I mean, I wish I could have gone without that. Right, right. Like, I don't enjoy that. Like, it's not nice when, you know, my kids at school and my daughter comes home crying because someone told them their dad was a bully because they, you know, someone told them that, like, that's tough.

46:00And, and, and it's like being bullied with the accusation of being a bully. But, but you know what the beautiful thing about my kids, they know who their dad is. And while my daughter was upset, she went back to school the next day and she was like, my dad is a great, and she just had my back. And like, and I told her, I was like, it's okay. It's a kid. Um, but it's, uh, but I will say I'm grateful for the ride. I don't think I had a moment where I was doing this meditation years ago. It sounds very woo-woo, but I'll just say it. I was doing this meditation and I was trying to like skip through it.

46:28I was just trying to phone it in. I was meditating because I thought I was supposed to meditate. Phoning it in because I wanted to get back to going through my past of what I could have done differently. And then I opened my eyes and I start to go back to doing that. Like the meditation distracted you from the rumination that you were interested in. I wanted to be in the rumination of if I would have done this, This could have been different. This could have been different. And I opened my eyes and I realized in that moment, wait a second. If I didn't go through exactly everything I went through in the timing that I went through it, I wouldn't have the perspective to be this person in this moment right now.

46:58And that's when I became grateful of rejection is God's protection. And when you think something is happening to you, everything ends up being a gift. Every door that closes, there is a purpose. something is being opened and you might not understand it in the moment but you should just stick with it because something is coming your way and i've had a lot to think about recently because i have a friend going through a bad health issue one of my best friends and um that really puts life in perspective of what's important and and how much time we have here and uh i have a question for you before we started you said you did your research and you had watched the interviews I had done.

47:41Why did you want me to do this? Why did I want to interview you? Why do you want me to do this? And what were you hoping to get different than I'd said in the past? Because I've been kind of quiet recently because I didn't think I had much to say. And you kept pushing me like, I want to talk about this. Well, I'm interested in people who seem to have a hot hand. I'm interested in people who are able to achieve some level of greatness, frankly, and who are misunderstood, I think, on a mass scale. I think there's something really interesting in the person who everyone hates or everyone says a thing about.

48:14That's where I'm always like, I bet there's actually something really interesting there. And I bet that person has something interesting to say. I appreciate that. It does make sense. A friend of mine said something to me one time. She works in PR. And she said, you know, the funny thing is the people that, you know, are hated are usually incredibly kind. And the people who are, you know, loved sometimes aren't so kind. Monsters, yeah. I'm not saying it. but um i think like i said earlier i wouldn't wish some of the stuff that i've gone through on anybody um i think that i took a part in everything you know i think that's the best way to get through it is to try and find your responsibility and like and things that feel unfair are the things that drive you to look at yourself the most um but i think i wouldn't change anything because I think it's given me a very unique perspective and I hope an empathy that that I didn't have there before.

49:12You've said before that human beings aren't meant to be worshipped. Yeah. Did you feel at any point or maybe this was after Hoffman or before that you were a little bit in the business of idol creation? I mean yeah I can understand what people said that was in the business of building you know the biggest artists in the world. I think what I meant by that is I've seen what happens when people get worshiped and I've seen when there isn't thank God for my mother she always said Sadaka like you have to have giving in everything that you do and I think that's you know where we kept a lot of our sanity I'm on the board of make a wish I've been involved in the organization for I think 18 years now and I think that being around wish kids and their siblings and their parents always fills my soul um i'm more grateful to them than anything you know the organization does for them they always feed us more than we feed them yeah like sadako's for the giver yeah and it's like i've seen the most incredible people the most incredible stories you know we have at make a wish we have um directors volunteers who you know work for the organization who have donated organs to save kids that they don't know because they're helping them with the wish and realize they have an organ failure and they're like, well, am I a match?

50:26And there's multiple stories like that. I mean, there are extraordinary people in the world that you don't hear their stories. What I meant by it is like you hear about Fortune 100 CEOs killing themselves and you usually don't react with like, what the hell? You go, oh, that's crazy. But like, you're not surprised. But if someone at a soup kitchen who's volunteered a soup kitchen, their whole life kills themselves. You're shocked. It's because giving feeds the soul, and deep down we all know that. And I think that that's why I said that, because when you're being worshipped, God is meant to be worshipped.

50:59We're meant to serve. Do you think fame is dangerous? I think it's dangerous, but I also think fame exposes who people are. You know, if you work at McDonald's and you're an asshole and someone gives you a billion dollars in fame, you're going to be a bigger asshole right if you are kind and generous and someone puts you in that position you could go through a little bit of up and down sometimes but you're going to find your way back to who you really are and so I think um but I think people are like I said earlier people are allowed to go through a human journey you've said about that post the 23 years post I knew I had to do it so to to hold myself to not going back you talk about that when I retired when you retired Okay, yeah, I wrote the post about why I retired.

51:39Yes. And was managing like almost an addiction? Was there an element of like, there's like this siren song of this thing that I'm clearly really good at, so I need to close the door and lock it with this public pronouncement? Yes. I think when you're really, really good at something, the world tells you you should be doing it, you should be doing it, you should be doing it. And it's easy to stay doing that thing. But at some point, even if you're great at something, you need to look in the mirror and ask, does it serve you? and I don't think that served me anymore and it would have been easy to stay doing that.

52:12There would have been other opportunities. There's always another opportunity and I think I needed to make this public thing even though at that point it had been six months to a year where I had already stopped. And there was no reason. I did it for myself to just tell the story and hold myself accountable that now I've said this publicly and there's no going back to it because I know deep down that I should have walked away quite some time ago. where when do you feel like would have been the right avenue out I don't know exactly when I just know that I wasn't happy for a while and I think that I was yearning to have the courage to do something else and I think I was being a coward and doing what was in front of me and what I'd built and you're no longer in that world of like and that's stalled out stadium in this world so how do you characterize your self-worth now I'm a dad okay what kind of dad are you I'm curious What's your parenting style?

53:04I coach my kids' teams. I coach basketball. I'll assist in soccer. I love coaching them in basketball. I love dancing with my kids, just like randomly dancing. I love watching films and shows with them. I love watching them create. My son's building a video game right now. I love watching him and talking ideas with him. I'm tough. you know I uh they understand like I feel like your job as a parent is you know not you're not always there to be a friend you're there to be a parent um so um there are times with my kids where you know I it is my responsibility to be the bad guy and to absolutely say no and to let them know this is not a negotiation but I think like yesterday I was playing basketball with my two sons two on one and like those are going to be some of the greatest memories of my life so you know that's how I can define self-worth I can define self-worth in myself and my friends in my relationship um in in the people that love me and the people that I love you mentioned your relationship how's it going I've met an extraordinary woman a big part of your story is kind and generous and real and down to earth and one of the biggest surprises ever and there you go.

54:25Can I ask how you met her? Not going to go into that. That's personal. Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Are you catching this season of Euphoria? I am catching it. How do you like it? I'm biased. I like it. I think there's been an incredible performance by a certain actress. I agree. It's her season. A big part of your story that I'm getting is that you're responsive to the world. You see what's coming down the pike and a part of that has been, you've always been politically outspoken is what I'm getting at. Fundraise for Hillary Clinton. You've been open about your concerns for Trump's style. You've advocated for things around gun violence.

54:59Did you have any hesitation about speaking out regarding anti-Semitism and the hostages after October 7th? No. I think we have a major problem in the world today of not taking the time to discuss the word nuance, to discuss the gray. I talk to my kids a lot about this, about accountability and about gray things are not black and white they're gray you have to look deeper you have to have conversations you have to be respectful um i have voted across party lines multiple times in my life um i want to talk about someone's character i want to talk about their policies like i'm interested in that kind of stuff um i think that when it came to speaking out about anti-semitism is this isn't my first rodeo and doing something like that it's i spoke out before i spoke out against racism i spoke like i've had no issue with that i come from a very unique family that's multicultural um and i think you know a lot of people say oh you must not see color because like your family's and i was like no you see color because you have black brothers yeah and a white sister and a white brother like and and um so when you grow up in a family where you know my my blonde green-eyed son has a cousin who's black and people are trying to say oh that's not your cousin and that is your cousin like it's um you see color very clearly when I would go places and see my brother my little brother get treated differently than me but that is my brother because our skin color is different you see color and so for me speaking out was at first I didn't want to speak out because I felt like the whole Taylor thing had happened.

56:38I was like, no one wants to hear from me. Like I'm the bad guy now. And, uh, and then I just saw people being quiet and I realized I had a platform. I knew what to do. And now I really believe that like all that stuff happened to me so that I would be prepared to speak. So what I'd understand that the internet is not a real place and that most of these people are keyboard gangsters and they are attacking and they're hoping that you get scared enough. And if you aren't scared, they will start to leave you alone because they will focus on someone else who they can scare with a couple, you know, 40 characters at a time.

57:07I had experienced that in real life in the last five years, as much as I would get heat on the internet, when I go out in public, people are kind. Most people are kind and they're generous and they're good people. And if you treat them with kindness, they will reciprocate. And that's what I'm saying. Social media can be a very crazy place. But I used to tell clients all the time, if you have a hundred million people following you and 10 ,000 yell at you at the same time, it feels like the world is ending. Absolutely. But it is less than one percent it is not real and i think that living through all that myself gave me that understanding and i have a family who are now schwitz and dachau and i feel like i have responsibility to speak out but i also want to talk about the nuance of if you are a minority being attacked you have just as much a responsibility to keep your heart open as you are to defend your people.

57:55And I think where, you know, it was very interesting, like I'll see stuff now in regards to that topic where people will be like, oh, he's a evil Zionist. And he, you know, he is like this pro-Israel and wants every Palestinian dead. And I donated$200 ,000 of my own money to Palestinian aid. I talked to my friend Nassim, who is a Palestinian American all the time. I study that conflict, I look at different things, you're allowed to have empathy while having a strong opinion. And I think that, you know, it's really sad to see people start to use words to separate people. You know, they use the word genocide because they know how sensitive Jews are to that word.

58:37And Jews want to be very factual about that word because we created that word. And that gets us to stop talking in general. We can't see past it. You know, we start going in that direction because we know that that you know it's not the same thing and then it gets convoluted and then they use the word Zionist I don't even know what that means Zionist was a word that really is about Jews self-determination to go back to their homeland and have an identity the homeland exists it's not going anywhere Palestinians aren't going anywhere Israelis aren't going anywhere they have to start having a different conversation of how do we start making this work in the future.

59:12And, you know, if you can't see the truth whether a music festival in Israel gets attacked and those are innocent kids in a music festival and it's the biggest music massacre in history and we've gotten to such a place that the keyboard gangsters are so loud that our musicians are afraid to say that this is wrong, then we're in a very, very scary place. But at the same time, if you can't look at a six-year-old who's stuck in a war in Gaza and have empathy that hits six and they don't deserve to be in that war, then you also have a problem. And I think that empathy shouldn't have borders. You should be able to have very tough conversations.

59:46You should be able to say that there are evil people in the world, but a child is not evil. And I think that you can realize that the only people losing when we can't have that conversation is an Israeli child and a Palestinian child because they didn't sign up for this. Did you feel disappointed by the rest of the entertainment industry by Hollywood with their silence around this, with their unwillingness to even talk in the sort of measured way you're talking now? Yes. Yes. But I also give people the benefit of the doubt that they're hearing what they're hearing. And I think, yes, some people, they're being, you know, you call cowardice, you call this, they only got their own issues, whatever you want to call it.

1:00:25there are other people who just haven't had the conversation. And I realize most people just need to have the conversation. And I think the biggest thing I'm hoping for the next generation, which I've been seeing, which frustrates me, is this idea that you can't have a conversation if you're insulted. How do we grow? How do we learn if we can't sit across from someone who we vehemently disagree with and say, I respect you enough that at least I'll have a conversation with you and see, give an opportunity for common ground a lot of times you're not going to get there and then you could be like fuck off right well then it becomes do you have a conversation with someone who you're a zionist pig you're a zionist pig you're a zionist pig i mean i've listen i've seen two of that i've seen people do that without even understanding what the word is and there's no they're lost they they there's hate in their eyes or they completely feel justified to shut you down and you're you know you're doing propaganda like they they've completely bought into this idea this is what I'm talking about.

1:01:20I wish they would look at, but then I've seen people that I've invited into the Nova exhibit and they said, this is propaganda. And they went in. I said, this is actually footage from Hamas that was put on telegram. This is not like, look it up yourself. This is all stuff they put out. I'm going to show you this. This is what happened in a music festival. And there's a young woman from Stanford who was like very much. This is propaganda. Now she speaks publicly that after going into that exhibit, she realized that she never knew the truth. Her heart was changed. Her heart was completely changed.

1:01:50And now she's advocating for peace with a different understanding. And I think that this is very, look, Martin Luther King's wife, Coretta Scott King said, every generation is going to have to fight the fight all over again. Relearn it. We're going to have to relearn it every single time. And I think this generation has a really interesting fight ahead of itself. It's so true. And I think the old canards that maybe we grew up hearing that happened in Germany or, you know, at America in one point and we thought that's never going to happen again people talking about you know miserly jews you know ruling the world it's happening it is happening look it's happening to you yeah i mean look like i said to you earlier everything that happened to me in 2020 and 2019 2020 2021 prepared me for this moment and as much as it was incredibly hard and you know you go from being loved to being the villain overnight and you know i i date someone and they're like you know people are like why he sucks like all this stuff that comes it's not easy it's hard especially my friends my my family gets very defensive because they're like their google search like they want to do all that stuff i while it's upsetting i also choose to be grateful because if i didn't know what it was like to be labeled something unfairly then where would i get the empathy from to look across and slow down and say hey, maybe we need to be looking at this differently.

1:03:17Maybe I shouldn't judge someone so quickly. Maybe they're hearing something that I'm not hearing. Maybe they're seeing something that I'm not seeing. Let me see if they're willing to take the time to have a conversation. Let me see if they're willing to take, because I know I always wish people would take the time to look into my stuff. And I wish they would take the time to have a conversation with me and see where my heart is. Who am I to shut that down and someone else? I agree with you on one level, But on the other, I see something truly venomous in this idea that Jews are in the world. You know what I mean?

1:03:50Let me be very, very clear with you. I don't think you can go and have a conversation with every person in the world and turn them into a loving human being towards every minority on the planet. I think there are people that are too far gone. I think there are people who will watch this and think every word that's coming out of my mouth is propaganda. Yeah. Everything is twisted. That I am a dirty Jew. that I am, you know, a bad guy, that I stole, that I, like, all these different things, that they have made up their mind, they need it to be this way, to justify their own beliefs. I'm not going to be able to change their minds.

1:04:25They're not going to be able to close my heart. And now a quick word from our sponsor. At The Free Press, we're pretty obsessed with one big idea, that most topics deserve more honesty and more depth than they're getting. So I want to tell you about a podcast that's doing exactly that. It's called Unpacking Israeli History. If you follow the news about Israel, you're getting headlines. But headlines are just a tiny slice of a long, complicated, and fascinating story without the depth or the context that you deserve. On Unpacking Israeli History, Dr. Noam Weissman dives deep into the events, the people, and the moments that shaped Israel with genuine empathy and a willingness to explore multiple perspectives.

1:05:03And when he brings in guests like the philosopher Mika Goodman or the journalist Haviv Rediger, they only add to that depth. It's deeply researched storytelling for people who want to understand Israel rather than confirm what they already think. And in today's climate, that's rare. Find Unpacking Israeli History on your favorite podcast app or YouTube and subscribe today. Can we talk about the music business? Sure. Okay, great. One thing that's been heavily debated is Live Nation, the ticket sales platform. A federal jury recently found that Live Nation and Ticketmaster, which Live Nation bought, operated in an illegal monopoly.

1:05:36is live nation like the big bad that everyone says it is no um listen i think we come to the society now where it's like if you are big you must be an oppressor you must be bad oh yeah you know we used to be a society that celebrated great entrepreneurs and and that was the american way and funny enough live nation is ran by a really great canadian michael rapino um michael rapino is a guy from thunder bay who's a tough guy who's a competitor who's a winner and he's one of the most impressive people in the industry you'll ever see because he has a quiet power. He's willing to build up other people and give them the power while he is the power underneath.

1:06:15I think Live Nation has really, under his leadership, done an incredible job of building an amazing business. The government's job is when a business gets too big to create opportunity for others. That doesn't mean that Live Nation is bad. It means that Michael has done his job so well that they're having this conversation. They need to make new laws. They're having this conversation. But it's because he's brilliant and because the way they brand their business is brilliant and because he's worked so hard to build it to this point that they're having this conversation. And I agree that you need to create opportunities for people to be able to compete with you.

1:06:50If you become too dominant, it becomes unfair. But that doesn't make him a bad guy. It just makes him exceptional. Do you feel similarly about Daniel Eck? He is the founder of Spotify, a longtime friend of yours. And you always say he saved music from, I assume, piracy, mass piracy. Well, I think Daniel also gave value to music. I think at the time we were losing the value, everyone was like, oh, it's the wrong time to get in the music industry. There's no value here. These companies, you know, Vivendi was going to sell for like$6 billion. You know, now it's worth, what,$40,$50 billion. And Daniel Ek came in, saw what Napster had started, perfected it, made the right deals with the right companies, and built an impressive business that revolutionized how we listen to audio, how we listen to music, how we consume, and created value around music again in a way that saved the industry and made it a significant industry for people to invest in.

1:07:50I think if you don't create something great that's worthwhile for people to invest in it, they won't invest in it. And then you lose the whole thing. You know, that's why I'm not a socialist. I personally don't think it works as well when you look at the history of it. So I think Daniel created an amazing business. You always are allowed to push on the success of a business to try to make them better, to try and make it more fair. That is what's supposed to happen. But it doesn't make it evil. It made it a savior. It made a thing that gives us something to argue about. And I think, you know, another story that no one tells is Lucy and Grange.

1:08:25You know, you're seeing what happens now where the movie and the television studios allowed Netflix to not only be a new way of distribution, but they allowed them to make original content, House of Cards first. And by doing that, Netflix continued to make more and more money, put more money into an original production, and changed the entire industry where these studios were struggling. Lucy and Grange was smart enough in music to say to Daniel, okay, I'll let you do this. I will let you license my catalog, but you're not allowed to make original content. And by that one decision by Lucy and Grange, by forcing him to position, because imagine if Spotify could do what Netflix does and be a label itself.

1:09:03What would be the point of these labels? And Lucy and Grange was smart enough to recognize there needs to be a separation of those things. And he saved the music. All the labels. He saved the labels. He saved the music industry in that way. So I think we've gotten to this weird place in society where we think there must be an oppressor and oppressed. And sometimes, you know, you could look at someone like Jeff Bezos who created more jobs for people during COVID than anyone. He changed corporate minimum wage to$15. That's not federal. Federal government never made these companies do that. He realized, well, run the numbers.

1:09:42Why can't we do that? and he announced we're going to change it. And all the other corporate companies followed suit that it's a standard now, not made by our government, made by him. And, you know, there are always going to be people who criticize, you know, this, that, and the other. But, you know, something he said that I always loved, he's like, well, if I'm worth this much, imagine how much value I've created for others when the company's worth that much. It's a really interesting point. I think not a counterpoint, but another aspect of it is that when you save the music industry, for example, or your Spotify, your Netflix, the nature of the product itself changes.

1:10:17You see Netflix putting out these action movies. Okay, we need three explosions up top because people are on their second screens. Spotify made it so it's all about songs. It's no longer about these album releases. Is something lost in that? Or is that just - Yeah, I think we're, like I said, oppressed and oppressed. We need to stop looking at it that way and try and give people the benefit out that they're creating something spectacular and that we're allowed to push back on it to make it better. But like the success of Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos has got our space program back on track because they were so successful.

1:10:48They were able to pursue something that no one else was able to pursue. And now for the first time, we're having opportunity at things we never dreamed of because of entrepreneurs. I don't know if you've read about this. There seems to be this entire shadow economy around virality, different music campaigns. So it's like for the Bad Bunny halftime show, the band Geese. I don't know if you've listened to them. It's called Chaotic Good. Or that's the kind of boogeyman that's sort of getting assigned. And this is way too cool for me. Like I said, I'm out of it. Really? You know about chaotic. The knock is that it's they're, you know, using bots or different, you know, massive amounts of accounts to clip things and make them go viral.

1:11:29Go clipping. Yeah. The knock is that we're being advertised to without being told we're being advertised to. And really what they're artificially doing is what you were genuinely able to do with someone like Justin. What do you feel like about these clipping campaigns? Listen, I think I'm a firm person that people find a way. Okay. You know, these ebbs and flows, when people, when they see a way to build something, people build. You know, and I think what you're seeing is people seeing an opportunity to build. And like I said, as they build, it's our responsibility to push back and demand the best from people and demand things to be better.

1:12:10and all these things we push for, but not at the expense of building. That's my personal belief. Whoa, I love that. Yeah, I think our responsibility is to make things better, not destroy. But do you feel like some of these platforms and some of the tax that are being used on the platform destroys credibility in a way? And if you find things that do that, then you should push back on them and demand better. And that's along the way. But to ask for the whole platform to be destroyed I don't find that useful, realistic, or actually beneficial. In this vein, a lot of people are going to music festivals and using it more as a stage to create content on versus connecting with the music.

1:12:52Does that upset you? No. Art is different depending on the artist. You know, it's always subjective. So that's the fun part about art. It's like, you know, we always got something to say about art, but it gets us talking. Oh, that I love. a lot of Gen Z goes into debt to go to music festivals. Something like 60 % of people who went to Coachella this year financed their tickets. Does that make you sad? Does that make you hopeful? Look, I think this country has a problem with debt in general. Yeah. I don't think it's the music businesses or festivals is the reason, you know, that we have a debt issue.

1:13:27I think we've had a debt issue for a long time. I do hope, you know, where music festivals aren't putting us in a place where you're in debt for the rest of your life. Yes, I agree with you. But I also love music festivals. Yeah. And I understand that if people are going to spend their money on something, the idea of being in a communal place, listening to great music is very exciting. There's worse things to spend your money on. Yeah, and I think there's lots of different music festivals around the world. And I just hope for this next generation we figure out a way to make things affordable. What's the best music festival?

1:14:01For me personally? Yeah, what do you like to go to? I have the most fun at Stagecoach. Okay. Like, I just have the most fun at Stagecoach now because that's, like, the one I go to with my friends. It's, like, a tradition, and we always have a great time. Bruce Springsteen reportedly sold his Masters to Sony for half a billion dollars. Bob Dylan sold his catalog for$300 million, I believe, to Universal Music. Red Hot Chili Peppers just sold their catalog for$350 to Warner. Why are they cashing out now? What's going on? Look, I think it's an artist's choice. You know, sometimes they're like, I think I can put this money to use and get a better return over these years.

1:14:35then how it's accruing, they're paying me in advance. They're basically giving me 10 or 20 times my money. They're giving me 20 years of the money right now, and I can invest that better. Sometimes people are older and saying, hey, I want to go have a good time. I worked hard. It's time for me to cash out, and I don't know if I have another 20, 30 years. Let me go have fun with it now. I think it's a decision that everyone makes for themselves, and if there's a market and they want to participate, that's their decision to make. Is there an AI component to why they're selling right now? No, I don't think that's part of it.

1:15:06I think AI will be another revenue stream. I think AI is going to be very interesting. Suno can create everyone into a creator. I think we freaked out when Pro Tools came. It was like, oh, it's the end of live music. And now Pro Tools is commonplace. I think we forget the radio technology I mentioned created the music industry itself. Technology is always going to show up. It's going to have us innovate. Instead of fighting it, realize that it's going to be different forms. We have electronic music. Like we have this, that. Like it's not going to take away. Oh, like it could be a genre. Yeah, it could be a genre in itself.

1:15:36Like it's never going to take away from the original. Like we still have jazz to this day. You know, is jazz or rock and roll as big as it used to be? No. Could it come back around? Yes. Has it disappeared? No. That's why I think when you know something is AI is very important. I think you should give people the choice of understanding. And because there's some really cool stuff I've heard with AI music that I've really enjoyed. but when I know it's coming from a human voice because I don't watch sports or listen to music predominantly to see perfection. I watch it for the imperfection. Like a person is doing that.

1:16:08I watch it to see someone fail and see if they can have redemption on a court or I watch it to see an artist's voice crack just that little bit that I know they're struggling. Like, you know, it's the imperfection of humanity that is the best art. Who's going to own the rights to AI music? Is it the AI company? Is it the person who did the prompt? Is it the original rights holders of the people who created the music? I don't know yet. It's going to be an interesting thing to watch. But I think right now it seems like the owner seems to be the person who just writes the prompt. There seems like there's a lot of...

1:16:41I think if you're using someone's voice, you're not the owner. Like there needs to be there. We need to protect other humans. And, and I think that's, that's the most important thing. Humans first. I think we need to protect each other's rights. There's a lot of like anxiety, I think, about being honest about using AI in the creative industries, whether you're a reporter, whether you're a musician, Diplo sort of talked about using AI tools, but he's kind of the only one. There's others, but Diplo, like Diplo, Timbaland, like, yeah, there's a bunch of guys. Warren Buffett always talks about getting greedy when other people are fearful.

1:17:13People are kind of fearful around AI, fearful about admitting that they use AI. Is now the time to get greedy? I think Mikey Shulman, who runs Suno, is a musician. and I think he deeply cares about the artist community and I think he has a really interesting outlook on AI and music and I think that if you're going to put someone in a position of power I think he's because he's a musician first I think he's a really interesting person to be in that position and I think he has the best of intentions and I think behind any creation you hope that people have the best intentions I really believe that Daniel Eck cared deeply about music and wanted to bring community back to music when he created Spotify.

1:17:55I think Mikey has the same sentiment when he's building Suma. You're an optimist. You know what? A long time ago, when I was living in Atlanta, Georgia, I'm not going to go into the details of it, but Atlanta was rough at a certain point, and I loved it. I was young and adventurous, but my training wasn't contracts and lawyers. My training was your word, and if you broke your word, you could get hurt. I was a cash party promoter in the murder capital of the United States. Meaning you were paid in cash. I was paid in cash, yeah. And it was like I was around a lot of stuff. And I got very protective.

1:18:34And I didn't trust a lot of people back then. And I wanted to transition. Someone I was with at a nightclub was killed an hour after I left that nightclub in a very well-known shooting in Atlanta. And I was at the table with that guy like an hour earlier and I remember looking at my phone and being like Seeing that person's name being like what the fuck like I was there and My brother Adam had been on the semester at sea boat that got hit by a tsunami wave like a rogue wave and they'd almost died and then his life changed after that and he was like backpacking around and like and I always thought backpacking was like rich kids who like didn't have anything to do with their lives and didn't want to work And when I, I like kept reading his blog and I was like, this sounds like the greatest adventure of all time.

1:19:23And I decided before I started my own record label and I left So So Def, I, I wrote him a letter, like an email. I said, where are you going to be? Like, tell me about this back. And he wrote me what I needed. And I bought a one-way ticket to Chile and I backpacked South America with him for six weeks. And I realized that the people I was meeting weren't like rich kids. We were living in$5 a night hostels, you know, 15 hour bus rides for like 30 bucks. you know getting odd jobs here they like and and it was just every day was an adventure and i remember we got to this hostel and i go we put our backpack here he goes yeah i go where do we lock everything up he goes well we don't you trust the other people also and i said you out of your goddamn mind like they're gonna rob us this is all we have and he goes and my brother i'll never forget it my little brother hit me with the wisdom he went if they do they do but we might as well trust them that they won't.

1:20:14And I remember coming back and I know there's so many people hear this story and they're like, you're so naive and trust me, I lock my door. I got security. I'm not stupid. But I realized that that moment in my life was there to teach me a lesson that it's better to go through life wishing the best for people and wishing the best from them than to go through life wishing the worst and wishing the worst from them. And my brother Adam gave me that lesson back and I choose to hold onto it as tight as I can. You're still close with your brother? I'm close with all my siblings. It's just a better way to live.

1:20:47You're the eldest, right? Yeah. That sort of explains everything. Why? Because you're the eldest. It's like, this is how the world needs to work. Eldest are world builders. Yeah, except the eldest here dropped out of college and went into all this stuff and they didn't listen to anything. My mom, I remember when I dropped out of college, she found out, she was like, I just wish you weren't setting such an example for the rest of them because my mom and dad are academics. Let's just say they didn't listen. Okay, good. My dermatologist sister definitely did not listen. She didn't pay attention to me.

1:21:13Do you have a dermatologist sister? I do. She's going to kill me for saying this because she likes a quieter life away from us. That's so funny. We're very close, but I don't talk about her as much because she's asked me not to, but I'm very, very proud of my sister. It all worked out. And we didn't talk a lot about money today, but you happen to have a lot of it. Estimates, you're a billionaire. And we're about to have a trillionaire in the world very soon. It might have actually already happened. And talk to me about the obligation you feel given the amount of money you have. So I've been evacuated from my house a couple times now because of forest fires.

1:21:46No matter how I answer this question, it will be obnoxious. Okay. I know that because it is obnoxious to be in this position, period. To be rich. Period. Because there's so many people not in this position. It is obnoxious. And I fully admit that. And you struggle with how to handle these things if you actually care. the way I look at it is when I left my house and you know not knowing are you going to return to your home I talked a lot of friend of mine dove who who actually evacuated with us with his family and our kids are really close and we live in the same area we had to evacuate where we live we talked about this idea in Kabbalah which I talked to the beginning of 10 percent no more than 20.

1:22:30My belief is that for whatever reason, we are each custodians of what we are given. We are not owners. I am to give 10 % away, no more than 20. And I make sure that I do. You know, I have - That you give away between 10 and 20? I make sure I have our family foundation, which Shauna Nepp runs. And we make sure we do a lot of giving. But at the same time, I look at it as the rest of it, for some reason, I've been asked to be a custodian of this, to be in this position, to be in this place where I can have these conversations. And if God decides tomorrow to take it all away, then I should be just as grateful that he took it away and there's a new lesson to learn.

1:23:14So when I left my house, that's kind of like my outlook. I was like, if I get to come back to this, I'm going to be incredibly grateful. but if I don't there was a reason and I should be just as grateful that is trying to the way I try to look at wealth of you have a responsibility with being a custodian of this and understand that it is not yours you are just a custodian of this wealth for yourself for your children and for God and if it gets taken away from you it was never yours in the first place and you should be grateful for the time you had with it and if it lasts with you you should be grateful and then make sure you are a good custodian.

1:23:48Scooter Braun, what do you hope to build next? I have no idea. Do you want to build again? I think I'm a little restless. I think that, you know, I've been having a really good time just kind of building the family office, helping people, you know, my friends and stuff they're doing. I'm meeting great entrepreneurs and making great investments. I think for me, I'm enjoying my relationship. I'm enjoying my children. I'm enjoying my friends. I'm enjoying my life. And I'm restless a little bit. that maybe I want to build something, but I'm going to be patient this time and be grateful for what I have and be grateful to be around the people that I have in my life.

1:24:24I'm just trying to pay attention to see what comes to me instead of me trying to grab something. Scooter Braun, thank you for joining me. Thanks for this.