Deborah Meaden: What You Don't See On Dragons' Den

0:00So Deborah, you've written a great new book called Deborah Talks Money. I think that's great because I do believe we've got a financial literacy problem challenge in the UK. So what is the summary of the book and who needs to read it? So first of all, I wrote it for exactly that reason. We are not taught financial literacy in school, which I find absolutely staggering. You can do nothing without understanding money. And you can start your life with a really bad relationship with it or a really good relationship with it. That's why I wrote the book. But I also understood that actually a lot of the topics are pretty dry.

0:29So it's a very short, sharp burst of information that gives you enough to know what you need to know. So it isn't a deep, you know, it is it talks about mortgages, but not in-depth mortgages. It just says these are the this is what it is. This is the stuff you need to know. And it gives you enough information to ask. It's a weird age span. It sounds like a weird age span. It's sort of 11 to 16 and a lot of grandparents and parents. but what I want it to be is a book that stays on a bookshelf you know that they think oh yeah I read about mortgages or I read about interest rates or I read about you know well whatever you know and then they can go and take it off the off the shelf and think oh yeah that's what that's what I need to know so that's my plan for the book yeah I actually just finished reading it because I obviously knew we were talking today and I think that just introducing those concepts to children at an early age will have such an unbelievable compound effect on their life.

1:24Because I remember when I first started my first business, I knew so little about money. I knew, I knew instinctively quite a lot about the product I was doing, but so little about money. So I think it's amazing that you've written it. And even, you know, I'm 33, but I really enjoyed it. I feel like I took away from it as well, which is really cool. So, um, yeah. So thanks for obviously writing Yeah. And I think to that point as well, you mentioned, you know, the context. Usually when you find financial information, you're sort of dropped right in the middle of some jargon without really understanding the context.

1:56So context of what is a mortgage? How does it relate to another concept? and why do I care? Do you know, one of the things that I really, really feel passionate about, the word budgets and business plan turns people right off. But I just, the power of being, of using a, it doesn't have to be an Excel spreadsheet, but the understanding of that balance sheet that goes on in your head all the time, the power that budgeting gives you over not just your money, but your life. You know, and I just, I'm constantly saying to people, I wish it wasn't called a but I wish there was another word for it but it's incredibly powerful you know whether you're running a household whether you're renting a flat with whatever you're doing you know the budgets are so so powerful so we're a show for business people we want to help people understand business more so what do you think is the thing that kills businesses most in their first couple of years what are the big mistakes that people are making Well, the one that I see most often is this over-expectation.

2:57So things are going to happen faster and they're going to be twice as good as you think, you know, and they're not. They always take twice as long and they're never as good as you think. And it's always going to be all right next month. Not keeping a handle on their numbers because they don't understand what's coming down the track. You know, I don't love numbers. People think I love numbers. I don't love numbers. I love what numbers tell me. I love the power that numbers give me. You know, I can see what's coming down. And it really worries me when I'm involved with businesses and they can't produce their management accounts because they're too busy to do it.

3:28And I think, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Now I'm worried, you know, because we don't know what's coming down the track and concentrating on cash. So a lot of businesses, for instance, subscription businesses might be taking cash now that really isn't their cash until that subscription has been delivered in the future. and they use that cash. Now, it's okay to use that cash if you have a plan. You really understand, is that going to return me enough cash to be able to fulfill that subscription in the future? But I see too many people thinking, I've got it in the bank so I can spend it without any thought about actually in six months' time it's going to run out and I can't fulfill my orders.

4:10And so I've watched you on Dragon's Den for quite a while now. I am a super fan of the show for as long as I can honestly remember. But I think I picked up on the show when you were already a dragon. So I would love to hear a little bit about how you got your start in business, because I think for everyone, it'll be a fascinating story. So I always knew. I mean, even when I was sort of four and five years old, I wanted to be in business. It's weird. I never, ever played jobs. I was always, I always had a job or a car wash. Always the CEO. Always the CEO. So I always knew. It was absolutely. And I think it's a fierce, it's the independence.

4:48I want to make my own decisions whether they're right and I can take, you know, get the benefit of that or whether they're wrong. And I take responsibility for that. So I think I always knew I was going to do it. So when I first, you know, I went to business, I say I went to business college. I popped in every now and then I had a fantastic time in Brighton. That's probably not a good lesson to people um fantastic time anyway um uh did this and then and then i thought now what am i going to do was completely stuck you know just kind of my life wasn't moving as i want to want a business i don't know what that is so i changed something and i think that's something in life change the scenery if you change the scenery something new happens so i had an ex-boyfriend who who moved over to italy and i thought i'd go i'd follow him whether he liked it or not yeah um and he was a fashion designer i went over there and i spent it and then i ran out of money and i thought right now really i'm gonna have to concentrate i really do need to do something here so i managed to convince four italian businesses with beautiful i was 19 at the time um with beautiful homeware products that i could be uh their agent and bring them back into the uk so that was kind of my that was my first business wow so and you know all credit to them they didn't know me from adam you know they they kind of, I think they're mildly startled.

6:06Like, who does she think she is? And was it a success? No. So it was. So we had a, I got into Top Draw, which I think is still going. So it's sort of a high-end gifts exhibition. Wow. And got into Harrods and Harvey Nichols and Benix. Amazing. And then the next year it all dried up and they started to bypass me and sell direct into the stores. and I could have you know I could have fought them for the rest of my you know yes the rest of my years but that was a very early lesson I think life's too short I don't have the time I don't have the cash then let's just learn and move on but amazing learning experience I would often say to young entrepreneurs like I don't mind if you had a few years doing something that didn't pan out I love hearing that story the things that you would have learned like how to manage how to market customers so true being a middle person you know like I do it all again I make the same mistakes again because they all go it all goes into your toolbox doesn't it all that stuff you learn you think oh i didn't like that what did you use those lessons for what do you do next um so the next thing and that again that came out of italy so i'd seen stefanel um fashion business in italy and was was literally walking down knightsbridge high street and saw a stefanel i thought oh i wonder if they're coming into the uk and i wonder if they're franchising so i must have been 20 maybe 21 went in as it happened their um head office was downstairs and i said oh is the um is whoever's in charge of franchising you can franchise and they went oh yeah whoever's in can i meet them yeah he's here and i met him amazing guy he let me have a um he he said yeah no we're doing franchising yeah and so i had a friend down in taunton with a shop that was doing next to nothing and i said to him how about we do a stefanel franchise together and we did one of the first Stefanel franchises in the UK.

7:54And again, all credit to... Carlo Mugello. Carlo Mugello. There we go. He used to be head of Fiorucci and then he moved into Stefanel. So he was the CEO and he happened to be... I was, you know, it was just luck. I just walked into the shop. He was there and he said, yeah, no, we can talk. It's amazing because that's very much the Wayne Gretzky thing of you miss 100 % of the shots you don't take. That's just like you just like, well, I'm going to just walk in there right now. I'm going to talk to that person. They're there or not. Give it a go. But a lot of people in those situations, definitely myself included, have been like, no, he's probably not there.

8:29Just walk on. And those are important moments. They're important moments. But I also think it's the, I didn't know what you weren't supposed to do. Do you know what I mean? I just, I think we do filter, we kind of filter out and think, well, that's not normal behavior. You know, you wouldn't do that. But I think some of the best moments that have happened to me have been the ones where I've just thought, well, I'll just go for it. Just give it a go. it's in the early part of your career the naivety to not know you know like i i similar to you my first business was a an agency business i used to just walk into big offices trick my way in and go in and say hello and and you win some of your biggest clients and so i think a lot of the time when i look back would i have started the business i'm running it's like it's hard work and to get here has taken so much personal you know toil and trouble but the naivety i think is almost the brilliance so i say to people just start even if you don't know the answer because you'll you'll find out you know you're working out totally agree so where does that where's all this franchise gumption energy where does that lead you you mean what happened next yes that's a better way of asking it um so then i i didn't suit the franchise model it had way too many rules and and i felt like i was making a lot of money for the franchisee and credit to them they you know carlo put a lot of faith into me but but it was it wasn't working for me so i sold out to my partner um and then i set up a prize bingo in butlins in minehead i love your faces i've been there i've been to that yeah i have yeah randomly i've just watched your telly for so long and it's so fun to like have the story i love it yeah i am a jolly good bingo caller if ever you need one got something to fall back on yeah if the den doesn't work bingo and butlins was not what i was expecting no well well to be honest bingo was a fantastic lesson because you are directly it was the prize bingo in butlins on as you you've been there as you walk through to the amusement arcade the amusements so that was mine uh really successful one of the busiest in the country and made really, really good money.

10:42But boy, do you learn some lessons? Your customer is sat there and they are quite prepared to tell you if they're happy with you or not happy with you. Time is money, literally, because the faster you can turn the games over, if you've got 50 players, you know, all paying pound each, you know, 50 pound a minute, you can do a game. But if you're not quiet, you've got to slow right down so that people see it and you build up a little bit. So I cannot tell you the business lessons I learned from that bingo. It was brilliant. Do you think people should be doing, not esoteric, but, you know, different kinds of businesses like that just so that they in their early 20s, for example, so they can learn different skills that will become so valuable later?

11:19I think people should find their own way. You know, I think everyone should do bingo, Deborah. I don't think. Well, yes, I do actually come to think of it because it's a brilliant way. No, I think people need to find their own way. But I've never been scared of business. And I think it's why I suit Dragon's Den very well, because it's not what the business is doing within my ethical and values bounds. It's more about can I understand this business? Do I understand why it would succeed? And what can I add to it? You know, but it's not like, oh, no, I wouldn't touch manufacturing or I wouldn't, you know, because I've never walked into anything that I've that I've struggled with over a period of time.

11:57obviously when you first get involved you need to learn some of the fundamentals but you know generally i've just been well why not so we go from bingo in the butlins oh gosh uh that then there was a gosh when i lay it out in front of me um i'm already glad i asked the question this is even funnier to her than bingo so it's gonna be good i'm excited to be honest i can't remember most of it but um but i had a stationary shop called choice that was a bit like do you remember when um paper chase first came out so you know it was when i sort of all the really cool trendy stationary shops i had a stationary shop in um taunton um and then i went into the family business which was amusement arcades in butlins and uh and their um holiday park operations um and uh and i literally started no there i went in as operations director my parents who had already had successful businesses got to the age where they were saying, look, you know, we're either going to bring in professional managers or is it something you're interested in doing?

13:05So it was kind of make my mind up time. And I think as a younger person, I'm glad I didn't go straight into that business because they stole me as a little girl and never tied it up a room. And used to bring back 50 pound ponies, that type of thing. And then I decided actually, I am interested in this business. So I went back and went into the amusement arcade business, recommended we sold out of that, which we did, and then moved into the holiday park business. Amazing. I might have missed some stuff along the way, but at the moment that's it. But the holiday park business is where you had first big financial success.

13:41Yeah, yeah. Right. Well, the holiday park business was where I got myself hocked up to the eyeballs doing a management buyout with my parents. And that's the moment I woke up one morning thinking, oh, my God. Yeah. I think I like the lesson here that for so many entrepreneurs, you don't have to find the perfect thing on day one. You know, you're going to work into it through loads of different experiences. And like, you know, you and I have had so many different businesses we've been involved in to find where we are now. So I think it's so nice to see that because I think from the outside, you do look so impressive, but you don't hear that stuff a lot of the time.

14:15So I think it's pretty cool. Yeah. And as well, you learn an awful lot from it. And I think the breadth of experience can only ever help, can't it? You know, it's when we were talking before about gut feeling. It's not gut instinct, is it? It's all of that stuff I've seen before and I thought, I've seen you. I know where this goes. It's a recognition and experience, right? But, you know, the other thing here is it's quite rare, isn't it, to do a management buyout with your parents. That sounds quite tense. Yeah. So it was, now, the good news is it obviously all worked out because we're best, you know, best buddies.

14:47So we spend a lot of time together. at the time it was tense because i was bidding for a business you know other people were interested in buying the business um so i ended up having to pay more money than i had to pay the highest price you know and i don't blame at the time it was it was like come on your daughter you know but i don't blame them absolutely you know they were exiting the business you know they had advisors advising them and i had advisors advising me you know and and mainly you know it got a bit I will never forget some of the advisors' faces because they were like, are you family?

15:25But generally, I think we've always had this. You look after the business, the business looks after the family. So treat this as a business. There's a fantastic clip of you where you're talking to two people in the den and they're a family business. And you say something like, you know, you can see, because they said, oh, we don't argue. We've got it. Do we have it? we've got it don't we did i watch that today yeah yeah they disagree so they say they didn't disagree very often you go that's actually not a good thing that's not good and it's funny because i remember watching that being like i have been in business with my younger brother for four years now on this new business and like we are best friends we have been since we were kids but like my god when you go loggerheads at each other it's like more than a business partnership you know you could go further but then you get back quicker i think i agree i agree as long as you remember this is not personal this is not about our sisterly brotherly parent you know this is about the business allow me to let you enjoy this clip and let's see let's see you react to this if we may i remember them do you remember like all of them like oh sorry the volume the volume would be down yeah well also hold on i don't know i'm gonna start with that then um really a business is worth what people are prepared to pay for it and what the vendors that's a different one this is this is the man who was explaining to me how businesses are valued he talks about facebook sorry and you're like are you joking i was told video two not video two i will go back and get the right one because it is worth it yes i do remember them yeah i do i love that it must be the best job in the world it is a great job yeah so i wasn't actually planning on how did you how did actually dragons then come to you like how did you so i don't know obviously because the bbc wouldn't say i would suspect i don't know if you remember my predecessor went bust while she was in dragon's den yeah i do remember that so i think they they would i they would never say they were looking for a woman but i hope they were because it was the only chair that woman was occupying i had just sold west star so i had money yeah there wasn't the risk of there wasn't actually be investing actually had money you know it wasn't my value tied up in a business i had cash so i suspect they had a bit of safety in that but they didn't i didn't know they didn't get hold of me until about six week before they're starting filming and they didn't say they didn't take me on until about 10 days until i finally said i'm quite busy yeah yeah yeah you know i can't hold my diary fascinating isn't it the ego levels right because you're like i'm actually a very busy person they're like with with the fucking bbc yeah well i don't care how busy you are no no i am busy no no we're the bbc i am busy and i genuinely yeah it's funny how things fall into like alignment isn't it you're like yeah i suppose the bbc is slightly more important than me i hate that but it's probably true you're you're a bit of a precursor to what i think is is going on right now in business and i think steve bartlett's been a big part of this which is you are so well known and associated with business long before business people tried to be well known because it was useful for their business and that must have had such a huge impact on your life and your business but i think that i think it's so cool they got you so early because you can think how many female entrepreneurs over the years have watched you on the show and have become entrepreneurs because of you i hope so i really really hope so that would be a lovely thing to think you know and actually my best moments are when people will come up to me and say i've got my own business and i started it because because of you and i'm like oh yeah i could not have said anything better you know No, that's just brilliant.

19:01As long as it was a success. Yeah. But even if it was a failure, it's fine. My first business was a failure. Yeah, yeah. What was day one on the den like for me? So I was very lucky. I joined Dragons with Richard Farley. Theo, Peter, Duncan, Richard Farley and myself. I was really conscious of the fact that I mustn't blink, you know, because we had some established dragons there and I was sitting between Peter and Theo. and who I love dearly but I definitely felt like if if I if I open the slightest opportunity you know they will be in there um so I absolutely straight down the line there wasn't going to get involved in any of the banter and they were very funny actually because they would talk across me about their their supposed exploits and they weren't any exploits at all but suppose just to see my reaction and I knew it I sat there thinking I know what you're doing guys you know And eventually I'd just say to them, guys, I know what you're doing, so you can cut it out now, you know.

20:03So, yeah, it was. So they're trying to get a rise out of you and you're like, I'm not going to play. I'm not going to play the game. Yeah, very good. But you get on very well. Seemed cooler that way, you know. What is the biggest mistake that you see entrepreneurs make in the den? I tell you what I do think is a big mistake is they often come in with an absolute favourite dragon. Such a mistake. It is a mistake because they actually don't know. what they seem to forget is they're also finding out about dragons you know you go in with this preconceived idea but in the den I'd be more interested in the questions they were asking me if I was standing as a pitcher I think you know I want to know which one of you is asking the right questions you know because you're the one that I want to be investing in me so I think they forget that and also you can see the body language and you think oh guys so daft because tactically you should want to get all the dragons to the end because then you compete against each other and so the second they go in i've seen so many of these clips for the second they go in they go i want peter or i want deborah and you're like you've just lost all your bargaining power like get them to go against each other and it's just you know you see it time and time again but that's why you're a successful entrepreneur you get that well yeah i mean i think that you learn that over time is that if you ever do raise money, you know that the FOMO and the competitive tension and what are the others doing and why do they like it?

21:27It becomes such an important and powerful thing in your, in your raising arsenal. Negotiations about leverage and you lose a lot when you say I want that one person. You lose all your leverage to that one person for starters. It does seem strange. And alienated everybody else. So that's not a good thing to do. In terms of all the investments that we see, how many actually get funded? Do you know the number? No, I don't. I I only know my number. My numbers range from seven out of eight. I don't think I've ever had a season where every single one has happened because you can imagine. I don't even think they're meaning to, but in the heat of the moment, I think sometimes there's an over - Exaggeration.

22:05Exaggeration. So you get into due diligence and find out that the patent is, in fact, a patent application. And if it's little things, that's fine. But if you've got a fundamental thing, then it changes. And also, I've got to believe I trust them. Now, sometimes I'll get out and I'll think, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I have seen this behavior before. This is not happening. So I would say the best one is seven out of eight. I've had one that's three out of seven, and that's really bad. This year, I think, is going to be a good one. So we've already filmed the next series, and already most of them are through.

22:39So hopefully this year is a good one. What's the investment process like off camera after? Well, it's due diligence in the way you would. But is it you personally meeting them eye to eye, face to face? Is it sending docs? No. So I have a team who do the due diligence for me. If we're paired up as dragons, then one of them will decide. I'll say I'll take the lead or you take the lead so that there isn't a duplication of information flow. So one of us will take the lead and then our team will just get on with it. I used to engage immediately. but I also I then realized that there have been moments where I've spent quite a bit of time with the business and they have pulled out you know so they've taken contacts and I've made introductions and they pulled out so I'm really up front with people I say I'm sorry but until the deal is over the line you really won't you won't see anything of me and then you will see a lot of me I think it's fair how long does it take um so from from from them filming you saying yes or whatever and dd what's the usual period in weeks so the quickest i can get well i can get some away in five six weeks you know if it's a question of sometimes they'll have a full set of docs that are documents which are pretty you know which we're happy with we'll just sign side letters if there's anything different that we that we need to add um so you know those can be pretty straightforward but some of them can get quite complicated lots of shareholders documents that you know are not suited to our particular cause because as a dragon you do have a lot of other responsibilities and confidentiality clauses that you need to go in and existing investors right absolutely yeah so so you know it just depends on the complexity of the deal um but if it drags on to so if it if i if the responses are too slow slow and it drags on too long i start getting suspicious because i think you're on your best behavior right now this is the moment you want this investment to happen and if you don't i or if you're dragging your feet i don't believe you it's so true and i think that if you if you get a good investor and i think that when you think about the dragons the dragons are kind of hyper good investors because of connectivity it's not money really at the end of the day and the last few years especially money's been so easy to raise you're looking for hyper connections and so you should be on your best behavior because one phone call from one of you can open a retail path and so the whole business changes overnight or yeah you know i'm sure steven's value add might be i know a few people who have massive audiences that i can connect with tomorrow and then suddenly you're off um so yeah i think people underestimate the value add of dragons versus other investors counterpoint may i ask um be careful i am concerned about asking this question but it's my it's my authentic it's my authentic belief because I've also done a lot of angel investing.

25:26And I've 86 companies that I've invested in. So I've spent a lot of time really actively doing it. Fantastic. Much less since I've been running heights, but certainly for a period. The criticism I would have on the process with Dragon's Den sometimes is the amounts sometimes that you guys are negotiating and percentages and ownership of that other person's business. to me would be a disincentive or a distractor for them to want to realize as much value as possible because they're giving so much away for such little cash. So then my, you know, critical hat on it says, so the logical reason is to do everything that Chris just said, you know, open up those doors, make those partnerships.

26:12It's not the money, it's the partnership. But when any human being is spread too thin, you know, my start, my investments, I'm like, I will make an intro for you over email, but I cannot do more than that and I haven't ever promised to. So I'm very clear, right? And so that's a very different thing. And so I'm not valuation sensitive or anything. I'm like, you go do your thing. However, in your situation, I'm always skeptical how much a human being has in terms of time that they can actually offer. What you have to think about is that dragons are uniquely placed in terms of connections because it doesn't take us a lot of time.

26:47that's the point you know if i if i senior intro absolutely and if it's not you know if one phone call from the top and not saying it always happens you know we get this all of the time you know i want you to get me into sainsbury's we've got to be ready to get into sainsbury's you know you've got it you know so all of that's got to happen first you know but when we're ready i'll make the call now now it won't be that the ceo is going to make the decision but the power of the ceo just saying oh how are we getting on with you know it just it ups it so i don't think for me it isn't about that that bit isn't the bit that takes the time the bit that takes the time for me is working out what the organization actually needs not what they think they need you know so you get involved in an organization they think oh yeah we've got all that sorted and i'm like exactly what i've just said you can't go to sainsbury's right you can't go to waitrose now they're going to you know they're going to laugh you at it you're going to get one shot and they're going to laugh you out of the out of the store so how about we get ourselves ready first and that's the bit that takes a little bit more time but that's what i spend my time doing yeah yeah because you're a professional investor it is different like deborah will have like a team behind her yeah of people to execute on things i'm sure there is like a team lead and there's you know they have a system and i think as the show has developed i actually think the valuations have got better for entrepreneurs i agree with you i think the beginning was quite rough but then the businesses probably were less scalable at the start if i think about it more you're absolutely i was that would be my if you'd ask me the question that would be my answer i think the businesses have changed you know we have got some grown-up businesses you know with often already outside investors so they've already been through the investing process yeah and have a valuation already yeah and they also don't need the time and attention that baby but you get this weird thing where baby businesses are probably not going to make you an awful lot of money need all of your time and attention and then you mature businesses where you think oh this is cracking you know this is one i really want to be part of all i need to do is make a couple of intros and that's it it's almost like the show evolved really you know the scope and scale of the show evolved so thinking back through the dragon's den career what is the deal that got away from you what's the deal you missed out on oh i can't remember that no no no there's doesn't want to remember that i could be less interested as if there's not there's not really you don't care i genuinely do You know, I think in life, I think in life, I owe.

29:09There's always more opportunities for me. And there is absolutely no point in me sitting here worrying about what what's got away. And it is absolutely true. How many opportunities I get? I get I get 20 emails a day. Most of them, most of them, you know, most of them. I've got an idea as opposed to I've got a product. But there's always something amazing comes up that I'm just delighted. Can a hustler get through to you? Like, could someone out there get through to you on an email? No, not really. Really? Yeah. Not many people have got through my defences. No, it's not. The thing is, people need to recognise that if you get engulfed with applications or information, you just become completely ineffective.

29:50Nobody gets your attention. So actually, making it quite difficult is a good thing to do. I would say you missed out on this one. Now, the reason I would say that is because I'm a customer. I think they're incredible. Because we had them on the show last week. And we had them on the show last week. so he left a message for you that he does believe that you missed out on him. Any ideas? Yeah, who do you think it might be? Big, big, big company. I leave our roots. No. How are you funding that? So to date, Timo each invested£75 ,000 each individually and we've also raised£130 ,000 from friends and family.

30:27Is it all gone? Blimey. We have about£90 ,000 left over at the moment. You're losing money at the moment. Yes, we are. How much are you losing? At the moment, he became a customer after. Really? Yeah, it was awesome. He said it on the show and then, you know, back then we checked everyone who kind of signed up. We saw his name pop up, became a customer. Loved it. £1 ,000 loss a month. I don't consider a small level. No, OK, that's it. To establish a client chain. That's fair dues though. It is fair dues. I've heard a clip of you watching it. Yeah. It's going to get really better. £25 ,000 is...

31:06I don't know. I'm amazed you described that as a small... No, of course not. That is a lot of money to be losing a month when you've only got£90 ,000 in the bank. I still make a good point. Yeah, I mean... Defiant in defeat. I think it's true though, right? Because, you know, Timo could have taken what happened on the show as advice and guidance and gone with it and learnt from it. And so this may have never happened if they'd said yes. You have no idea. No, absolutely. It's very true. Totally. Obviously, Gusto went on to become a unicorn. They frequent my house every single week. It's phenomenal.

31:42Just keep going on about it. That's actually quite rude. I'm your guest here. Have you used it? Have you used it? No. They've got a vegan offering. So there you go. Anyway, she's right. She's right. We'll move on. We'll move on. Ignore the James Watt story. Get rid of that one. And I genuinely mean this. If businesses go on to make a big success after we've all turned them down, what a great way to be wrong. Amazing. what's bad in that you know i love it i get what do i get all that well a levi roots obviously um and um what's the other one tangle tees yeah tangle tees hairbrush and i think are you trying to rub that in my face because i think that's blinking brilliant yeah i mean yeah i don't think anyone looks at tangle tees though and goes oh i would have called that well i mean that has been it's very it's very easy obviously hindsight now look back on those and be like you know of course the whole nature of how we ordered food changed you know like that well you just couldn't have known that then you know so what is it like behind the scenes at dragon's den like what is it like on the day what is it like for the people coming in like tell us a bit about the experience behind the scenes so um i don't know what it's like for the people coming in because we are kept completely separate we know absolutely nothing about the um entrepreneurs or their businesses and they are literally kept inseparable i mean i have seen when an entrepreneur has accidentally found themselves down the path i can literally see the researchers going go i'm not through here so I don't know I suspect it's quite nerve wracking for the entourage of course for us I get in about 7.30 for hair and makeup because we've got two makeup artists for all of us so Stephen takes up most of the time obviously get it so I turn up about 7.30 I sit in the makeup chair we're usually on screen on camera around about 10 o 'clock so we do our pictures absolutely no idea what you know what's coming through the doors and then as we finish a pitch we break out into a green room we then all tell each other whether we think what they said was really good or ridiculous yeah obviously um make some phone calls is there usually consensus around those two points no right no i love that no no no we all and also sometimes it's not just right or wrong is it's just that you might be in a field where you understand not just what that can do but what you can do for that business you know and i'm i'm might just think well actually tuka is brilliantly placed for that i'm never going to invest in that but tuka is brilliantly placed for it you know so so you know but we always have those discussions love you must be mad or um or no okay that was a really good i'm gutted i really wanted that but i think it's like we were saying before like if i was going on the show for a specific business my thinking would be obviously which dragon do i want but i cannot show that at any point the whole way through my show because i want the other dragons that i don't want to put the fomo into the dragons that I do want.

34:31And it's like, I just always think to myself, it's so funny, they come on and they go, you know, I want Steve for X, I want Debra for Y. And you go, no, you youngster, come on. It's a bit like VC investing. You're always advised, you go for your least favourite VC that you don't want. You do all of those pitches first. They will tell you everything. And they'll tell you everything that's wrong with your business. By the time you get to the investors you want, you really understand they're giving you hard questions. You practice that three or four times because you bucket it up three or four times.

34:56And that is really, really good advice. Yeah. So people should probably do that with you guys. Yeah, they probably should. More consciously. But also, people do pigeonhole you into your expertise. And in fact, dragons kind of do that. They say, well, you know, Stephen's the marketing and Peter does the tech and whatever. If anybody thinks all of us haven't got all of our business successes without being across all of that, I don't have to be the expert. I just need to know. You know, I need to know. I need to know. You know, Matt from Fuff, he's fantastic on his marketing. I don't need to help him on that.

35:26You know, so you just need to know. that's TV isn't it yeah you all get pigeonholed pigeonholed I'm like come on guys if you think I'm not across all of that yeah if you think I can't do marketing yeah really yeah Steve's the only one that does marketing yeah yeah so obviously you're really uh really focused on sustainability conscious consumers um how much of that do you feel like focuses in on what you do on drag like on screen on dragon's den and outside of dragon's den as well so I would like to think I'm the same person on screen and off screen um in fact I'd be mortified if anybody told me I was a different person off screen I think you're identical except well thank you oh there you are he's good no honestly I mean we interview a lot of people have had some amazing guests on recently and you do you do sense a slight difference on and off camera so yeah I think it's important good because that as I said that's the only me I've got um but Dragon's Den distills obviously those moments because there's no point all the chatter around you know it's all about are we going to make that investment or not yes so i am exactly the same so yesterday i was presenting awards for compassion in world farming to try and improve animal welfare and the reduce impact on planet so i think it's really important you know i do you know also i urge people to find something i really really care about because you can get wrapped up in businesses and lose a sense of life You know, you can be so busy and end up caring a lot about the things that you have to do on a daily basis, but not about the way the world should be and life and humanity and whatever.

36:57And I just see a lot of unhappy people who end up at the end of their business careers, having worked really hard, loads of money in the bank, not caring about anything. You know, and I think it's really important. I really care. I really care about the environmental impact, the planetary impact, the, you know, impact on humanity. I care about those things. How important do you think like purpose versus passion versus actually just follow your skills and interests is in terms of like advice for entrepreneurs? Passion is a very thrown about word, isn't it? I think purpose builds passion. You know, if you if you or maybe I don't know, maybe it's the other way around.

37:35But but that care piece that says, OK, when we start our journey, because if you don't if you don't understand from the very beginning why you're doing something, you're never going to find out as you go along. you know, because things get layered. It gets even more confusing as to why am I doing this in business. So kind of taking that moment at the beginning to think, what do I want this to be? And what impact do I want this to have? And that can be financial impact. You've got to make money. You're a business. You know, you've got to be sustainable. Nothing wrong with making money either. But also, do I want it to make a difference?

38:06Do you know, can I use my customers? Can I help them with the messaging? Or what else do I want this business to do? because I do worry about businesses that solely say it's just about the money and that's a very common theme amongst entrepreneurs and I worry that at some stage they'll get to get to a point in their lives where they think okay now I've got loads of money yeah now what do you think I mean do you think that school and education should be teaching us more about the cultivation of our purpose then as well because I know a load of entrepreneurs now that at our age are super successful have so much money and they do nothing but work and they don't have any because they don't know what else to do yeah they always don't have habits they don't have hobbies and like they just work all the time we're pretty good at that we always we're always you know complimenting each other for the fact that um well firstly from learned experience we were both very unhealthy typical entrepreneurs we're we're saying don't be like that now but right now we're both Me too.

39:07We're both very good at making sure that we see our friends and we see our family and that we have whole lives that are outside of the business too. And it is a really important lesson to go through. It is, and it's hard because there is a time when your business, it's like having a baby. You've got to feed it and nurture it all the time. Every time it cries, you've got to go to it. So it is hard, but I cannot tell you how the power of having other things to care about is really, really important. It makes you better at what you do, I think. you almost need to be ceo of your life then you can be ceo of your business much better that will fall into place much more naturally the the the thing i suppose now i always think about with business i actually most entrepreneurs earlier are bad at is not identifying the things that they actually need to be working on versus the things that can be delegated and also after years and years of doing it you go okay this thing here this is super important i just need the right person running that and reporting to me and if you do that enough times you actually do find that you do have quite a lot of time that's very true even if you're wearing a big business you suddenly have five or six really good really smart well-paid people who execute and your vision setting and delegating but when you're younger you just think you have to grind it yeah and you don't well i think it's also a question of trust i think when you're younger you kind of think you know it all and it's my way or the highway you know and it's and of course it isn't you know there are i always i am never the expert in the room i am never the expert in the room there's always somebody who knows something who knows more than i do and i hope there is because otherwise i'm wasting my time aren't i you know it's it's it's so i think learning that i think when i was younger i was like oh no i need to make sure everything's you know and that's that's definitely something that's a and that's a great mindset to just hold for your life right that a growth mindset epitomized that attitude yeah um so there's obviously i think in culture there's this belief that entrepreneurs are just rich.

41:03In reality, we know that most entrepreneurs are actually poor. So what is the difference between the financial habits in the self-made millionaires, so I suppose also the successful ones, and your run-of-the-mill entrepreneurs? What are the differences between their financial habits? What are the things we need to instill in people to make sure we can create more millionaires, more wealth in this country, and hopefully more tax? Well, here's the issue. I don't know if we want to create more millionaires. I think if that's where your chosen path ends up. I didn't start out wanting to be a millionaire.