Deepseek vs ChatGPT, YouTube Dating? & Beating Bill Gates

0:28Welcome back to Secret Leaders. why but it was because we are expecting another child so unbelievable very very grateful very happy having another daughter yeah uh so going full girl dad mode yeah and um three girls and you in the house yeah exactly it's just like i love it honestly this morning you've got enough masculine energy for the rest of us though so yeah thank you yeah i'm not sure that the other ladies in my house would agree with that but uh this morning a perfect example you know wake up get my daughter out of her car get her dress and said daddy can we play dollies before we go down and you know i'm like literally sitting there playing dollies this morning and thinking this is the life i actually quite like it yeah dollies is quite fun yeah it's just make believe that is a very different morning to mine yeah exactly um but all to look forward to all to look forward to so anyway moving on from dollies that's been exciting in my life so what what's i am preparing to become a dad again um you had some big news of your own as well what is the big news well you sir are the number one linkedin creator oh god you're having a child and i'm i'm getting a ranking on linkedin yeah that's the state of life um but yeah i mean it's the most bizarre thing um not necessarily something that you are aiming at nor necessarily care about achieving because you just get ranked but it must be to do with views more than anything.

1:56So it is funny because you obviously get to know who's like number two and three. And in the screenshots you get sent by the ranking company, it was like Bill Gates one week and then the next week Barack Obama. And so it's like, you look at these things, they're completely stupid. I obviously don't sit here thinking I'm the most influential person on LinkedIn in the world. That's ridiculous. but it is cool in a sense that you know two years ago i was like i would love to build a personal brand on linkedin at the time everyone was like it's insane or lame you know most of feedback at the time wasn't that it was insane it was like what are you doing it's so lame whereas now everyone's like oh i understand that you know if you build a good linkedin profile and you build a good personal brand you can drive loads of business um so i am really happy about it because in some ways like a lot of what i do now is try and teach entrepreneurs about how to think about profile building so it's quite nice to be able to be like i'm practicing while i preach okay i've got more questions for you before we do that let's get a quick break from our sponsor wise and we'll be right back and we're back so what would you say what's your top three tips for anyone want to build a big profile on linkedin i think i think to be honest nowadays i'm certainly never telling people to build a big profile like i would say if you have a business and you can create the relevant content for you know your relevant audience and you can drive them through your linkedin to your business then it's an unbelievable outcome and i think like i first really discovered it years ago when i was running verb because my profile was very much about luxury content luxury brands luxury design and most of our clients were coming through linkedin and then through the years of building Lottie all of our staff came through LinkedIn all of our investors found us through LinkedIn most of our original care home partners saw us posting on LinkedIn and so I just I suppose these days it's a foregone conclusion that obviously building a personal brand has a massive impact on your business and so when people are like I would love to have loads of followers I would always be like what's the reason for having lots of followers Yeah.

4:07And often it's all about not how many, but who follows you. Totally. And, you know, I think that you can both have a big audience that's also a good audience. And so for me nowadays, yeah, if I'm speaking to a young entrepreneur, I would say that it would be useful alongside marketing for the company to put some time and effort into growing your personal brand. simply because you know if you think about all the different potential customers and you know partners and so forth in the industry who already exist they will be looking for people to partner with if you're the known person in your niche or sector you will get most of the opportunity and so I just think it's it's now like you know it's very clearly understood now that building a good brand in your space makes sense and so yeah that's the the advice I would give people is like it takes a long time sorry it takes a long time it's definitely not easy it doesn't happen overnight like i think people under appreciate how much time and effort goes into building a good personal brand and especially you know something like linkedin or or any of these channels nowadays the quality of content has gone up so much because you're competing against people who really want the attention you know if you're i mean i'll take an example but if you're like a marketing agency marketing agency founders there's loads of them creating incredible content and so if you want to compete against them for the attention of the brands you've got to make incredible content yeah and it's all about creative right and who's going to have better creative than creative and marketing companies totally like you know there's no there's no surprise that a lot of the really big names on social these days are people who either work in or worked in digital marketing of some degree social marketing like steve bartlett gary v like they're all creative marketers yeah and they've built their personal brands enormously like my first business was an agency so i understand how the the dynamics of the platforms work um and so i thought i thought yes a bit of a competitive advantage but we live in a digital world so if you're gonna if you're gonna build you know personal brand and get awareness even if you were to work in you know if you were a window cleaner but you had a great personal brand where you showed incredible window cleaning and the impact whatever you would get so much more business than the people who don't so obviously you said a second ago and I think it's very true is that it's not necessarily the amount of followers it's who follows you and I suppose the connectivity that putting yourself out there sometimes gets you so you had a really cool thing happen a few days ago oh yeah you were followed by you know one of the biggest entrepreneurs in the world and suddenly now they're just following you and your um you know great content every day yeah and engaging yeah i'm saying getting the odd likes and stuff from him yeah yeah um so yeah mark benioff yeah um followed me on twitter um and yeah for those who don't know mark benioff is the founder and ceo of salesforce so he's pretty much one of the founding fathers of sas software as a service salesforce is a i think over 300 billion market cap company he himself is worth over 10 billion dollars he's one of the most successful wealthiest people in the world um and he's massively influential for a whole bunch of reasons number one he you know they pretty much invented sass you know right at the start you know once salesforce is in your business it's the stickiest thing ever you don't take it out they do enterprise so they are pretty much you know the piping for how all sales teams account managers everyone at all size businesses ever basically run on Salesforce.

7:48So it's a nightmare to take out. It's recurring revenue forever. You are just locked in. And, you know, the other side of it is if you've ever been to San Francisco, there is a period of time, there's a week where they do something called Dreamforce. Dreamforce is their global conference. What they did, which is super unusual, they were like the first company to do this. They create basically a conference. I mean, they had insane people. I think they even had like Beyonce and people there. they were just like hey we're not just like some boring sass company we're going to put on the best event in the whole world um and we're going to invite the best speakers and it's invite only but they shut down san francisco pretty much the top of like buildings are like all advertisers dream force like dream for like san francisco like comes to pretty much a halt because people flying from all over the world to go to dream force jeez so it is incredible to see how actually a company that size with so much plumbing inside enterprises can think so deeply about what brand means and what experience means and to bring people into your ecosystem even if all you're really doing is selling like a sales you know crm platform it's not very interesting there's always a real je ne sais quoi of how the big thinkers big dreamers ultimately can create massive impact and dreamforce is just a great example of executing a brand like salesforce and how to bring people into it with excitement uh so anyway yeah he followed me he's been starting to engage with me on twitter um the reason this is actually relevant and interesting you know said it's not always about you know how many people follow you but who follows you if you're putting out thoughtful content on the idea of you know personal brand if you're putting out thoughtful content um you know on twitter most of my content is around longevity health uh yes entrepreneurship as well but you know more on the sort of mindset and psychology side of things around health and longevity, you never know who's going to read it.

9:41You never know who follows you. And actually, I've got some phenomenally interesting people that follow me on Twitter and engage in my stuff. And you don't know where that's going to go in the future. Maybe if Mark's coming to London, that's a direct in. I can just drop him a message in the inbox and actually physically ask him, do you want to come and do an episode? So it depends what your industry is. Obviously, on one side, my business is Heights and on the other side, running a podcast and interviewing people so having people like that that are aware of you and choosing to engage is different to just going through PR companies yeah and I also think like people sometimes forget that if you're I mean especially in entrepreneurship if you're doing entrepreneurship for long enough you will do multiple companies and so if I look at my own career for a second you know my first company was import export my second company was a education business my third company was verb my fourth company was lotty and now i'm involved with lots of different companies my personal brand technically has lasted through it all and so it's you know you're almost guaranteeing yourself more optionality in the future by having a network by having an audience and so he's now in your network one of the most successful entrepreneurs ever that's totally right and actually having him as a heights customer would be awesome yeah is he not no no I don't meet many people who aren't.

11:00No, sorry. So I've got to come on board, Mark. But, you know, if and when we sell heights, that won't matter anymore, so to speak. I won't have a direct relationship with him anymore. Unlike, obviously, if he follows me personally, whether or not I sell heights, I can still reach out to him at any point. So to your point, that is the difference between having customers for your company and followers for your own personal brand. They are two separate things and both are important. So I would say these days, most of my companies that I invest in come through my personal brand. You know, they will reach out to me directly.

11:30They will pitch me through my personal brand. Again, it just gives me unbelievable amount of optionality. I can push them lots of traffic. I can get them customers. And so the optionality of it all is, from an entrepreneurial standpoint, I think it's kind of unmatched. So obviously you're coming up to having your second kid. Yeah. Another girl. Very exciting. Yeah. How are you and how do you think about paternity leave as, because again i think some people won't know this about you you own multiple different companies you don't just run one company you run multiple companies you are um very involved in like the founder community as it were how do you think about paternity leave how are you going to manage that um so the first time i had a child i uh we implemented a paternity leave policy where you get four weeks, but you can break it up how you like.

12:25Because doing some research, speaking to mums is as important as speaking to dads. And then also the other side, did your wife end up having, you know, what's called a natural birth or a vaginal birth, or was it a C-section? Recovery's different. These things matter. So with a C-section, which is what my wife ended up having to have, so a cesarean, the recovery is much longer. That's like four to six weeks. It's major surgery. So it's four to six weeks of proper surgery, quite bed bound, all this kind of stuff. So, you know, I was trying to not be too rigid. What does my wife need? I don't know.

12:58She doesn't know if you get an infection that's going to change things. There's so much stuff that happens. Usually with so-called a natural birth, you know, recovery can be next day. So if everything's OK, you know, that's what your body is designed to do, right? Your body is designed to go through that as a woman, as intense as it is. Your body is not designed to go through surgery. So very, very different. and so for uh us we have four weeks and you know i chose to break it up with two weeks at home at the start then my wife started recovering really well no infections etc etc and we decided what made the most amount of sense was instead of doing four weeks up front and just being around the whole time because let me tell you as a dad in my experience you're just literally like a plodding plonker you are you've like cleared your schedule no one needs you no one needs you and And also for the first time in my life, I properly cleared my whole schedule.

13:48I was like, right, you know, no one can contact me. I'm on paternity. It's this incredible spiritual experience. Well, this time, Margot, we'll need you. Well, exactly. Right. And it'll be a totally different experience again. But the uselessness, I've never really felt it before. Like that level of, I'd already told everyone not to contact me about work. So I was yearning. And everyone respected it? Everyone respected it. No one got in touch about that. And it's sort of a mutual contract where you therefore can't really start to do work because you all look like a terrible dad. so it works both ways so you do just have to plot around you just plot around waiting for any help that's needed but they're breastfeeding and no one does need any help and so you know obviously you're doing nappies and wake-ups but you know whatever anyway it's a bit of a blur and so after two weeks we were like okay the most sensible thing is actually to extend this as long as possible so um i was like okay the next two weeks is technically two blocks of five days that's 10 days why don't i for the next 10 weeks take off fridays so for the next 10 weeks we will have a week where it's four days on work three days off and actually that's pretty much half and half of a week like from in most cases it's pretty much 50 50 and that'll be extending it over 10 weeks why didn't we do that and that's what we did and it was really really helpful and it actually meant that um after i think four weeks you know we went on a long weekend you know the other thing that happens when you have your kid for the first time you're a little bit like oh god you know do we everything's hard now so do we still go on staycations do we still go away do we still live this exciting life that we used to live and you know the reality to all those questions is at some point you will choose to do that or or you won't and your whole life will change around the baby and that in my what i've heard from others will lead to resentment so the idea is kind of you want to try to force yourself to live as normal a life as you can continuing and the baby fits in around your life versus the other way around.

15:38And so we started booking staycations because we love going away. And we're like, we need to just check that we can do this. And, you know, after a while, you're then booking your first babysitter. And that's terrifying. You're leaving your baby with a stranger and all of this stuff. But at some point, you do do those things. We just decided to confront it earlier. That 10 weeks was an incredible move because we just used it to go away together as a little family. Now, this time around, I will probably do the same thing but yeah like you say Margot is now three she's at nursery and actually baby's coming in July she'll stop she'll be starting school in September like reception year as they call it so um I don't know but the policy is still four weeks um and it's very hard as a founder to imagine longer than four weeks if that makes sense totally that's a long time to not be working in your business um and obviously you know it's so much more complicated for women founders who then have to take maternity and that's a whole other when i when i see because i know obviously like the early stages of a business is actually like and no matter what people say to get a business off the ground is brutal brutal you know absolutely brutal you're and it's your baby yeah and you're working crazy hours when i see founders who have like just had a kid and doing it i'm like how like i'm so tired all the time at the start of companies yeah and they must just go superhuman for a while yeah there's something not natural happening yeah for sure they're just because you're not sleeping as well no and the other problem is you know the only way to solve this problem really is money so you can get night nurses and all this stuff but we did none of it the first time around this time around i think i'll have to right because my companies are so much more mature um i just won't be able to like do all of those nights yeah you know that's just not i was actually like we just had to do it the first time around we didn't have the money and weren't in the right time and all of this stuff.

17:32Now there's no way that I would get no help whatsoever. These people are crazy. Like a night nurse is like£300 a night. That's crazy money and that solves one night problem. One. So it's really like not that meaningful. So we just decided to raw dog the whole thing. Just get none of it. This time around, yeah, I'm already starting to think about how to plan it better. and a really good example I actually had this conversation with Melissa two days ago which is we record Secret Leaders on Friday so if there's ever a night ever a night where I'd get a night nurse once a week or whatever it'd be Thursday night because I can't be coming to a studio and interviewing people three times in one day with a bad night's sleep like I know that's not possible I could get away without heights with the excuses and sorry you know I'll have a meeting and I'll have a gap a meeting and a gap you do this with me you know bloody hard work the focus the energy doing this hungover is always very hard exactly so now do that with like one hour sleep throughout the night it'd be a nightmare so i've already i've already been planning uh it around secret leaders actually to make sure i can be sharp in the studio so you know i'm talking about being on twitter a lot you know uh occasionally if you're lucky enough on twitter to uh get through politics yeah somehow uh if you complete politics on twitter you can start to surface some really interesting is it just No, but I mean a lot, right?

18:54Because Elon does so much in politics that it just fills your feed up. But if you're lucky enough and you scroll past it, you can find some really interesting stuff. And I came across this story about YouTube. Yeah. Do you know that YouTube wasn't originally a video platform at all? I always get YouTube and Twitch confused. I think YouTube was dating and Twitch was Jason TV or something. Oh yeah, that's true. It was Jason TV. so jason tv was the dude who like and twitter was a podcast app oh dear is that right yeah twitter was podcasting that i mean it's interesting yeah so what so youtube was so youtube was a basically a video dating site called tune in hookup but basically they realized the platform had broader appeal obviously and shifted their focus but yeah it was basically a dating site that is crazy that but i mean also i think with facebook hot or not kind of vibe isn't it yeah but i think with companies like that they obviously make a small product and then they just follow their nose it's like at the door like in the dawn of video on the internet yeah you don't have to keep pushing the water uphill if it's not working um but that is so cool that they went and actually built you know in internet defining company off the back of a dating site it's crazy if you see the original founders as well they're so geeky you can just totally imagine them having oh i did see this online there are three of them sitting in a room and the room is like classically where you would start a company crap everywhere yeah and they're having a conversation about that yeah i did see that and it's basically the idea was you just broadcast yourselves you broadcast yourself that's the idea of the dating site obviously you know very quickly realize that people are going to do all sorts of random things if you broadcast yourself and they're just collecting loads of really interesting videos yeah it's actually funny how many dating applications and dating things there have been which just don't work and i don't know why i think i think it's because dating apps have to be on trend and cool as well as being super functional you know like the amount that we've seen come and go now it's not a business i would ever go into personally or dating i just think it has to be cool and if something has to be cool it's a little bit like a restaurant and it has to always be on trend yeah true which i just think is very very it's another it's another bar for the business to have to like hit all the time whereas a lot of businesses you can just be very good at what you do rather than having to be on trend and with dating eventually if you're successful you just get bought by the biggest company in dating because you are the thing of the time and so match basically own every successful dating app that ever makes it so if you know tinder or whatever they make it they become the new thing match then buys them integrates them into their system and tinder now isn't cool or at least that's my perception of it it's interesting one of our investors at Heights was one of the co-founders of Badoo, Badoo is one of the biggest dating apps in the world but they were massive in Russia and other parts and South America but what you do know is Bumble they basically merged with Bumble and Bumble and took Bumble's name, you know the whole Whitney Wolf and IPO I don't know how much but a huge amount of their revenue was actually from badu you know some one day he was something like i had no idea bumble was that big what yeah it was a merger of a whole bunch of other companies yeah repackaged up with a bumble brand and whitney is the front runner because she's a much more presentable she's a great entrepreneur i'm not saying she's not but you know there's more to that story than just bumble it was the same thing as match it's a merger absolutely it's a group of dating apps again makes sense because it's just it's just interconnected networks isn't it yeah and then good branding yeah yeah and yeah I suppose talking about acquisitions and so forth, obviously YouTube, the dating site became YouTube and got bought by Google, which tends to just be the case of any successful software, you know, digital businesses that just get made part of the stack of someone else's business.

22:50$1.6 billion. So that just fills up one of the best acquisitions of all time. $1.6 billion to buy it. Yeah. And now it's probably worth$31 billion a year in revenue per year. Now YouTube, i mean you yeah you i mean it's like it's like the piping of the internet totally you know hence the tube actually was genius like it just it is probably the most powerful thing on the internet now isn't it well and also now we're obviously in a world of ai and actually training models and stuff having all that video data is so valuable yeah but i also i also think that like text there's a written text copy like i i think there was a time where a lot of people would be like google can't be disrupted because they had such a hold on the internet and now ai can very obviously disrupt that if google don't keep up with the trend whereas like video feels very different you know it feels like if you have the right amount of video which they do and i suppose the competition would come from tiktok then because they're now going long form aren't they um but it is interesting to think like i can't see that going anywhere you know it is the piping for video on the internet okay so next up we're gonna go we're gonna hear from you know the number one linkedin creator in the world uh we're gonna refer to you as the mayor of linkedin from right on so as the mayor of linkedin i'm gonna guess i just want to state to everyone that i don't think that i'm number one on linkedin and it only was for one week uh in my mind you are the mayor of linkedin so whether or not you're number one or two right uh you're the mayor okay and as the mayor of linkedin uh it found some absolute cringe and so i would love to get you to talk about the state of linkedin however uh first we'll get a little break from our sponsors so okay so there's a brilliant page on x if you haven't seen it's called the state of linkedin and it's basically peak linkedin cringe i have seen yeah i can't remember it how terrified are you of ending up on there one time oh no i mean there's a page called linkedin lunatics somewhere i can't remember what it's on maybe it's like a reddit thread and i i was definitely on it once and someone was someone posted my image and they also they were but they were attacking the person who commented on the profile and i was like oh i've sort of narrowly escaped being on linkedin lunatics but then obviously now you know if you post as much as we do you do end up on these sites yeah all right so chris as the mayor of linkedin first up we got a motivational speaker and presentation skills coach who had recently released his books and had a rather unusual idea to get his biggest fan happy.

25:21Do you want to take a look at this one? So this one is, today is a very special day. Someone I know sent me a photo of his mother who is at her final days being cared for at home by hospice staff. He sent me a picture of his mother in bed clutching my first two books, which I had signed for her. We've never met, but she's a big fan. So this morning is a very special surprise. I'm heading over to Lancashire to turn up at her home with my latest book in the trilogy. I'm going to read it to her. This will be priceless. Sometimes a random act of kindness goes a very long way. I mean, I don't even know what to say about that.

25:59Well, you ran care home business. Would you do something? Would you exploit the care home people dying for a few LinkedIn likes, 47 likes? I mean, I don't even know what that post means. But I mean, the state of LinkedIn at the moment and the state of content at the moment is a bit bizarre in that people will do anything for traffic and you know we've had like people doing their proposals on linkedin and and therefore like people being james what did he do that yeah yeah i mean it's quite him you know sort of stunt exactly you know quite trolley yeah trolley and stunting and i think his thing now is like almost trolling the media yeah to get more press yeah so yeah i mean for him maybe that works i i would always think to myself right is that it's like we said earlier the followers matter the content type matters so i don't know what this is i mean maybe maybe he's just not very good at content is that you know because that's not going to drive you any positivity people are going to take piss out of you and you do just come across sounding like a bit of a wanker um so speaking of a bit of a wanker yeah uh this next one says from alexander c i follow this guy on Twitter so his name is actually Alex Cohen I'm 99 % sure that this is satire it's very hard on LinkedIn obviously to tell the difference between satire and reality the thing is this guy does tweet a lot about the state of LinkedIn and how absurd other people are so he has a particularly awful photo of Blender which is what leads me to think it really is and he says I'm travelling for work and instead of eating a fancy dinner out I decided to cook a cheaper meal in the hotel room even though the hotel room didn't have a kitchen I managed to use the coffee machine to cook chicken and butter and garlic hence it's definitely satire guys but okay although my company allows me to expense dinner while traveling i wanted to save money because i know that every dollar counts on the pnl it's the little things that get you promoted hashtag promotion hashtag yeah i mean he's clearly a troll that is good trolling isn't it yeah but i i understand why people do troll it because the people the stuff that people post on these channels is absolutely insane you know that the the sort of um humble brag about how they help people or you know the the one above is like i mean it's an awful post but you see a lot of this stuff like people trying to show off their kindness in a sort of wrapped up story and i just hate it i think it's a very bizarre thing to and it never does well no i think that's exactly the point you're saying which is it it never tends to go that well when you are trying to promote how kind you are.

28:38That's basically the thing that doesn't like weaponising your kindness for likes. It's difficult because sometimes you're doing generous things and you do want people to know. But there tends to never be a right way to do it. You always just end up looking like a sanctimonious twat. Okay, so Chris, I'm going to, as a mayor, please give a ranking to each of these. So, one to five stars. Starting with Richard McCann's motivational care home. I mean, that's got to get no stars. he can't even have he can't have one star for that i mean it's rubbish man no stars to you mate and alexander well he's got to be a troll so um in trolling i think it's quite funny five stars so maybe yeah maybe he gets some good stars for that yeah so i think the main thing to talk about is deep seek obviously um coming out and absolutely smashing open ai but also having such a ridiculous impact on the stock prices of nvidia you know massive drop but also just generally the valuations on ai being smashed in the us and europe and so forth um and how it's probably a very good thing and how you know it smacks in the face of sam altman who had the open source ai and then done this great thing for humanity and gone down an absolute hero closed it off and made it for profit with microsoft and all the rest of it so this has come out it is open source and it's absolutely laid waste to the stock market yeah i mean open ai was meant to be open now it's closed and the chinese have just brought out free and open and embarrassed them frankly yeah and there's this rumor whether or not it's true that you know it costs them just about six million dollars to train versus you know open ai etc with their billions yeah which just shows i don't think that's true because obviously they actually have a whole bunch of nvidia you know uh like computer chips and all this kind of stuff so they they it's from a hedge fund from a chinese hedge fund these absolute like quant trading geniuses so they'll have invested tens of millions in these you know in the infrastructure anyway and the people yeah but the narrative that it costs six million i think is more just to to demonstrate the fact that you can do this stuff a lot cheaper and actually the main thing is that the infrastructure the way that they've generally invested in the ai space has created this theoretical moat and everyone was saying that basically unless you are like in that sort of hardware core layer building the llms or you're building the compute or the chips or whatever then this sort of surface layer of the apps and stuff isn't really where the value is all that value is in the other space and actually it's looking like this this demonstrates the example that the argument's completely flipped.

31:21Actually, there's so much value to be made on the layer. And actually, a lot of the hard technical work that's been done is stuff that's just going to get leveraged and ripped off like crazy. You know, a bit like saying, you know, what is the IP of the internet? Well, I mean, there is no one really like monetizing the internet, but there's zillions of websites and companies all built off it. So that's been the really interesting flip of something that DeepSeek can demonstrate, which is you can bring out a model that is actually as good as if not better than gpt4 yeah and uh and surprisingly fraction of the cost yeah have you actually used it uh so i went to download it it's on my phone and then i was suddenly like i don't know if i want the chinese government having my stuff i was a little paranoid about it yeah i'm the same with tiktok i don't have tiktok on my phone either so i'm like okay uh no um however i do use perplexity so i love people i love perplexity i think it's awesome and one of the inputs you can have in perplexity is um you do a search query it's like you know replacement for google for me um and then which model do you want to use right and they brought in deep seek r1 as one of their models within about 24 hours of deep seek going like really popular and so what they did is really smart one of the things in deep seek that blew up on the internet was quite funny was people being like oh my god china's amazing all the americans right mostly young American socialists being like, America's awful, China's amazing, all of this stuff.

32:46China's so great and America's so terrible. And then people being like, cool, now ask DeepSeek about Tiananmen Square. And it's like, sorry, this is uncomfortable. Can we ask about something else? You're like, okay, now ask about the Chinese government and their policy towards people. It's like, sorry, this is uncomfortable. Can you ask something else? And so there's all the censorship, right? Because DeepSeek very quickly realized, cannot say anything bad about the Chinese government. uh what perplexity has done is that overridden that and so if you ask the same questions so you can ask deep seek what it thinks about tiananmen square in perplexity and get a real answer wow yeah so it's actually really really cool so actually using deep seek and perplexity is like an uncensored version of deep seek that you can't get in deep seek wow cool huh that is very cool yeah i don't i yeah i don't worry about having that stuff on my phone there's nothing interesting enough about my life not to not to you know lay lay bare to the chinese government um so i will download it and let you know how it goes but yeah i think that the i think the interesting thing is is that it has shaken to the core people's beliefs of the valuations of these companies yeah which i think is a very good thing and i think that when you've got additional competition on the technology of the time i can't see that being anything else other than positive yeah i actually invested in a company called grok not annoyingly not elon musk's grok which is like uh xai but it's grok um grok is g-r-o-k and there's a grok with g-r-o-q right and basically the whole principle of it is they have a different way of building the compute up so they're like an nvidia competitor and they have a different thesis behind how to do these large language models and the chips required and you know the investment to get to something like nvidia is is exponentially expensive and they just have a totally different approach for how they're doing the queries on their chips so whether or not they'll ever be able to compete against nvidia who knows but it's sort of the hardware level example of what deep seek just did to open ai right deep seek have basically said by asking prompts a completely different way we use lots of lots less energy and compute to get to really good systematic answers so it all just costs less and as a result you have as good a model that's putting out maybe even better answers um grok's theory is is like a different starting principle right which is the reason nvidia is unbeatable is because everyone is assuming this is the only way to make the chips yeah and we have a completely different thesis whether that's ever going to be a good investment or not i've got no idea but i like the idea of someone being like well you know that's one way we have a completely esoteric different way and for for the ordinary consumer and for like people like ourselves you know and people who watch the show like entrepreneurs the war between these big companies on making compute less expensive effectively or making the outcome of ai less expensive is awesome you know for us to be able to leverage that in our smaller sme type businesses is like an unbelievable outcome yeah so there was a thing trending around uh twitter which is called jevon's paradox right and basically the idea of it is uh when you you know like technically speaking when you raise the price of a lot of things.

35:55So like the compute and everything is getting more expensive and stuff. You assume therefore there's going to be more money in the market because things are getting more expensive. So the premium's going up but people still need it and there's a demand. Jevons Paradox sort of demonstrates the opposite which is actually when you make the energy and the cost of everything go down and down and down it spreads far further across the world. There's actually more demand for it. So even though the compute of something that used to cost$1 ,000 will now cost$1, you might have 10 000 people demanding it whereas previously only 1 000 people could so the paradox is that actually the cheaper you make all the stuff the higher the demand the higher the usage the more money you get overall totally yeah anyway ai just moves so quickly that whole space is ridiculous for a couple of guys in startup land having to keep up with like e-commerce trends and everything else like how glad are you you're not working directly in ai right now yeah i mean all i would say is that i mean everyone right now has a sense that i'm definitely not trying to run a big business these days but if i was to run a big business it would be the only only play for me right now interesting because i would just think again about like rising tide put yourself where it's going to go but but this discussion is a perfect example of how can you make that bet work like you're completely right it's the obvious big bet but then one thing from one company in china that no one saw coming upends all the other companies immediately and everyone's work so i actually have the counter position which is like i'm so glad i'm not building a company in this space right now because you know ai can't disrupt what i'm doing like on a fundamental basis people are still going to need nutrients are still going to need vitamins like there are ways that ai can improve it etc etc but you know a big change like deep seek doesn't make a single bit of difference to a company like heights and there's so many companies that aren't impacted but for the thousands of ai startups that do exist something just comes out of nowhere every single week and changes whether or not you've got a viable business that's pretty stressful yeah i mean if i was trying to build a big company that's the space i position myself in i'm obviously not and and position myself in very very different places to that but i feel like yeah i mean if i was if you're like 21 22 yeah if you can handle the stress and you can handle the ups you've got 10 years of like you know we just had an amazing conversation with two entrepreneurs today who've both said the beginning of their journeys were 10 to 15 years of like absolutely killing themselves which is broadly how i identify my business career if i had that again ai is where i put myself so i think that'll be a wrap for today um we have an episode coming out next week with scott davies for anyone that doesn't know scott scott has built everyone which is which is a lot of people you know he's he's um he's not uh he's a true secretly yeah he's really not focused on like the marketing and top end of his personal brand as it were but he's built a business that turns over 44 million a year and he sells honey 25 of the whole country's honey it was amazing unbelievable and he owns 100 the company it's taken him 13 years to build he sells 25 of all the honey in the uk and he makes 44 million a year and it's growing fast it's growing fast and he's going international it's just an unbelievable story.

39:07Yeah. So tune in next week to Secret Leaders. And honey money. Queen Bee. I'm Chris. I'm Dan. And this was Secret Leaders.