The Man Who Took Over Savile Row With Just $10,000

0:00Richard James Suits is far more than just a Savile row tailor. What started in 1992 with a modest£10 ,000 overdraft has transformed into one of Britain's most influential luxury brands. We came across this tiny little store with a 2-let sign. It's like£15 ,000 a year. It seemed like a lot. Now it seems like a couple of days now. I think we've broken into it about three times, four times. And God, you know, we might not be selling much, but at least people want to break in and steal it. That's something. While most people know Richard James for dressing icons like Elton John, Nicole Kidman, Daniel Craig and Oasis.

0:32Doing a fitting on, no, on Liam. At the same time, we were doing a fitting on a captain of industry, a massive multinational company at the same time. And then in the walk, Tell St John. We made a, actually it was a coat furvester Alex Ferguson, and that came about because we were doing something with Nike. What's less understood is how they've managed to survive and thrive over three decades in an industry where competitors have fallen out all around them. And that's what's great about Business House. We are fairly unique. We're small, we're unique, we're niche. So it's okay if you're Louis Vuitton.

1:01What business you're losing here in London, you're more than making up for in Paris or Milan or wherever. You did Noel Gallagher's iconic number 10 suit as well. Yeah, I think he won awards when he went to meet Tony Blair. Are you talking to them for the summer? Not allowed to talk about it, obviously. Sean, tell me about the moment you decided to enter Savile Row with£10 ,000 in 1992. What was going through your head? yeah probably 1992 was a time of recession in the UK there wasn't much going on it was pretty pretty it felt quite dire the full economic story I won't bore you with but uh but it felt things things weren't weren't easy myself and Richard had a business before it hadn't worked out it's very much more of a fashion business we'd always we'd always worked with Savile Row we'd always kind of uh you know dealt with Savile Row and and enjoyed having things made there more for more for of kind of samples just to try things out.

1:56We had a conversation with some tailors there, and they said, oh, why don't you come on to Savile Row and you can do that ready-to-air, and we'll do the bespoke. We kind of talked about that. But the people we were talking to, we realised that culturally we were so different. This was just not going to work. Whilst we were on Savile Row, we came across this tiny little store with a 2-let sign on it. Why don't we give the landlord or the agent a call and see what's going on there, and call them up. and they said yeah yeah yeah we can have it's like 15 000 pounds a year seemed like a lot but you know now it seems like that's a couple of days now um and uh and yeah well okay we'll we'll try it we'll give it a go didn't really have we had not much knowledge about uh about how to start up but we we we had some enthusiasm we respected we we knew what cell world was about we loved it and we thought we could do something different and so yeah with our without very limited funds we took the store over moved in tried to put a collection together we realized it felt like several rows a little bit flat at the time it had a fantastic heritage incredible history but it just felt a little bit flat and we kind of wanted to bring back some more interest some more color so we kind of went to different mills that made fabrics we'd go to scotland go to yorkshire and because things were tough these these these mills wouldn't normally wouldn't bother with us they kind of said okay well we'll we'll we'll make some some small runs of fabric for you and we'll make them unique and so we'd we'd take up we'd have a tweed and put a kind of bright lime green check through it or pink check through it just make it slightly different and and and um put those in the store and make those and and and yeah we we just try to be a bit a little bit different and i think because of that our peers at the time were designer clothing is what it was cool design clothes were kind of big but we you know they kind of i think there's a there was a gap for men that wanted something that has a sign of quality and some sort of heritage and some sort of touchstone to heritage but also a little bit a little bit different a little bit more forward a little bit more creative and and that's really how we still how we started and and created a clothing line around that we had a very specific kind of audience in mind kind of creative professionals that would understand what we wanted but the reality was it was much broader than that you know people people from all sorts of all works of life at that time we had there was something called dress down fridays going on which is which i don't know whether you've heard of that now but it's that everyday yeah now it's dressed down it does happen to be friday and we both look like we've turned up to dress down friday with you i'm sorry so dress down fridays was a big thing it was and so all the banks all the law firms all the things you know you could you could kind of you know more or less wear what you want wanted so you know i was answering questions which i have been basically the whole time what are you guys doing opening this kind of formal kind of clothing when when people are actually the direction the general movement and general direction is is a more casual but actually what happened is what was happening especially in those banks and those guys couldn't really do dress down it was a bit of a disaster you know and actually quite a lot of the younger guys, they kind of went the other way, especially in some of the investment banks.

5:21We're going to dress up. We want to look completely different. So quite a lot of our clientele, Salvo Road traditionally at that time had a much older clientele, probably in 50s, 60s guys, you know, it's much more established, establishment, proper establishment. We suddenly had guys in their kind of 20s coming in and kind of wanting to have a chalk stripe suit, but they wanted it to be kind of, you know, orange or or you know you know just just to stand out and and they wanted to look as sharp as possible and and and and look a bit different and we we kind of filled that gap it was going to you know that's really i guess how we how we got going in that respect and so going back to those early days you i read had a 10 000 pound overdraft yes that's how we started that's how you started yeah had your business before that been successful and so what sort of financial position were you both in at the time we both owned our properties and so use those as use that's collateral so we have personal you know guarantees on that and the bank would would lend us against that was that was that basic yeah those numbers seem really small now they are kind of small now but then they felt quite big you know quite substantial and i remember thinking but i do i we you know the business that i'd worked with richard on before did go into administration and bankruptcy, I remember thinking, God, I just don't want that to happen with this business.

6:47You know, I don't want to see, I don't want to experience that. You know, that's the last thing I want to do. Did you make money quite quickly? Like, how were the early days? No, we didn't make money at all quickly. So we had this tiny little store on South Row, which is probably our changing rooms in the main store are probably bigger than the store then. We filled this store up with, you know, what we thought were really nice clothes, unusual clothes, and opened the doors and just expect people to come in. I'm flooding in. And no, they didn't. I mean, it was interesting. We actually did have a lot of, we did have a lot of press.

7:27We knew people in the business and there was a lot of goodwill towards what we were doing. I still think people didn't quite, you know, they weren't quite ready for it. And, you know, Savile Row, Savile Row then was quite, we opened on a Saturday and nothing was open on Saturday. So I'd go in the store and sit there, wait for people to come in. Basically, the only people come in was someone looking for change for the parking meters. And that's really what it was like for a while. And we both had to do other things to survive. We didn't earn any money from the business. We couldn't exist just on that.

7:57There wasn't anything coming in. When you go to a landlord, there's a space, it's£10 ,000. Did they not qualify in advance? Are you making a tailoring business here? Because it's Savile Row? They didn't, actually. it's really very little there are very little questions were asked I think that building was probably in a process of being was about to be redeveloped and I think the landlord just think well I just fill the space up with these guys and if they pay the rent great if they don't you know it's not too much of a big deal we're going to put it down but we you know obviously we did pay the rent but then we gave us we you know we're on a six month notice period any time they could just say six months you're out we're going to do it which did it you know which did eventually happen I look back now would be absolutely impossible to do to do that now you know that you'd have to virtually go through interviews with the landlords just you tell them what they want to do what's your marketing ideas what's your pr ideas and then also you know we will take a year's deposit because we don't know what who you are and and whether you can survive i have to ask because your your name's obviously sean dixon you got your co-founder richard james uh was it roll of the dice Yeah, we, yeah.

9:09Flip a coin, ah, ten, bugger. Bugger, I see, yeah. It was interesting. Richard had had a business previously. It felt like, let's just maintain that goodwill. I was very much quite happy to be more in the background anyway when we started the business. And I thought, I don't know how long is this going to last, whether we're going to, you know, as I said, I was doing other things. And so it kind of made, it made more sense. And I was quite happy for that to be the case. Did you have the same skills? Were you both tailors? No, neither of us were tailors. I came from a much more business background, commercial background.

9:45Richard was a designer. He'd worked in some significant stores as a buyer. So we kind of came up from, we had a different skill set, but we both knew that we liked men's clothing. We wanted to make a difference and try and change things. So for those that don't know, What's the history and the legacy behind Savile Row? God, yeah. Savile Row is a really fascinating street, I think. Totally unique. There's nowhere else I'd like it in the world. It's about, I think, almost a 200-year history of suits. I mean, originally, what's quite interesting is actually, originally, Savile Row was the doctors.

10:25Were doctors based in Savile Row. It was the original Harley Street, was it? Harley Street had the tailors. No, very well. It actually swapped over around about, I can't remember, mid-19th century. I think the first Taylors was Henry Paul to move into Savile Row then. So our kind of 30-odd year history is a kind of blink of an eye compared to some of these. So, yeah, so it's got an incredible history. And, you know, in the centre of one of the most expensive cities in the world, you have people working and actually making things, sewing things, putting things together. You know, that's kind of unique.

11:04And that's probably something that really needs to be preserved and maintained and valued, you know, because there's not many other, you know, property, land is expensive. And we are in, you know, we're in Mayfair, but there are still people making things. So you can walk down Savile Row, you can look downstairs in the basements and you can see people sewing, putting things together. it's pretty unique. The authenticity, if you think about how much the ways of working is changing everywhere in every industry and stuff, there aren't many categories where you feel like even in a hundred years, that would still be perceived as value to the consumer.

11:42But you can imagine that in this space. I think so. It's one of the things I always talk about. We're kind of an analog business, in a very digital world. It's one of those things that, especially bespoke tailoring, It can't, there's certain things that have basically remained the same for 100 years and probably will have to remain the same. And I think people, you know, respect that things take time and there's a slowness to it. Everything slows down and it has to be considered. You know, maybe there will be some sort of tech innovation that kind of changes bespoke. I, you know, I'm not sure.

12:18But I think our customers specifically quite like that the things slow down. and you kind of enjoy the process. And also, you know, it's handmade. And what you get with handmade is an individualism that you don't get with kind of mass-produced, you know, factory-made garments, you know. I mean, the buttonholes on a bespoke suit actually kind of look a little bit wonky, but that's part of the charm. You know, that's what you can see. That's how you can spot a Savoy suit, bespoke suit. You know, I think that's what's really special. Not the usual selling point. Oh, those wonky buffets. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:54That's what you're paying for. That's the value. When I say wonky, they're not just, you know, Slightly off-centre. Slightly. Just some small, tiny, tiny little things that make a difference. It's a bit like the kind of the radiators on a grill on a Rolls-Royce. You know, apparently each one can be spotted by the person that made it. You know, it's kind of a little bit like that with several red suits. Yeah, with the Rolls-Royce, they draw on the lines and so forth by hand. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's a craftsmanship to it. Exactly. Do I understand that the Japanese word for suit comes from saburo?

13:26Yes, that's absolutely right. A two-piece traditional suit is quite often referred to in Japan as saburo. That's what they understand a two-piece suit to be. And that dates back from 150 years. So still, in Japan, people refer to it as saburo. That's funny. So the Japanese particular, is that a particular demographic of customer that you guys notice? Japan has a fantastic respect for quality and craftsmanship. And that's reflected, I think, in everything they do themselves. A total understanding, wanting to understand how things are put together and trying to make it better. And I think there's a real appreciation for what Savaro stands for in Japan.

14:14And I think there's a similar appreciation for tailing from Naples, you know, that they also like. But I think there's a, you know, there's a kind of affiliation with Savile Row and that kind of British look. And they like that style. So, yeah, no, absolutely. There really is. One of the main problems with having a physical presence is things like break-ins. And I heard that you've had quite a few. When we first started the business, our tiny little store, I think we were broken into about three times, four times in the space of five or six months. And God, we might not be selling much, but at least people want to break in and steal it.

14:53That's something. But yeah, it was quite an exhausting process. You kind of get a call at four o 'clock or five o 'clock in the morning. We were bearing in mind, we were 100 meters from West End Central as well, just down the road. didn't seem to really prevent people breaking in. But yeah, it was a pretty, we had very limited funds with our£10 ,000 overdraft and we'd have to remake stuff. And at the end, we were just emptying the shop every day, every night and just hope for the best and get a call. So we have a lot of startups, new businesses on this show and we often talk about how they think about entering the market, how they think about going up against established companies.

15:38So when you started and you were looking at Savile Row, what was it that you were like, we are going to make this so different that people are going to come here? What was your USP? Did you have a business plan? Right, no, we really didn't have a business plan. It was a kind of, yeah, let's just do this and try and figure it out as we go along. How difficult can it be? It actually was quite difficult. we love men's clothing we love several of what it's before we just thought there's something we can add to it we can maybe add something a little bit different and and and maybe bring a little bit of life and and joy and humor into to what we were doing and and you know that was the kind of that that was the plan and um the other the other people on several kind of looked at us thought yeah who are these guys i mean they're you know jumped up youngsters yeah they're really you know I do remember 10 years later, we put on the windows for our celebrate our 10 year anniversary, the kind of comments that we'd accumulated over the years of, at least it's not boots or, you know, one end of a needle from another.

16:45I mean, I've got to say our relationship with the rest of the world is really good now. We're considered part of the new establishment. But back then, I definitely think it was like, yeah, these guys aren't going to be around for five minutes. Was there a bit of a backlash from the Taylor and Community? Not a backlash. I think it's just general kind of ambivalence.

17:04Ambivalence is, you know, that's quite positive from British people. Well, I guess so, yes. Yeah, I mean, there was the odd person would come and say hello, but otherwise I think generally ignored and hopefully they'd go away. But I think, actually, I think what we did, without kind of blowing our drum, I think we kind of, we created a kind of modernisation of Savile Row. where we kind of, you know, our attitude was much more open, much more democratic. We didn't kind of just expect everyone to have a huge country estate, you know, and work in the city. Medium-sized country estate as well. It was good, yeah, yeah.

17:43But, you know, most of the people were entrepreneurs, self-made people, you know, and they didn't want to be judged when they went to a, you know, It was daunting going into some of those places back then. Now I think it's not. I think there's a much more modern approach and much more welcoming. And you can have someone who's 80 and has been having bespoke suits made their whole life. Or you can have someone who's kind of 23 in the tech business and also wants to have a salary suit made. So you've been through real recession periods where I think you've said, we only sold a couple of ties what were those periods like i mean what sort of drop off in business are we talking about and how long until it came back well i think the the the only couple of ties is when when we first started the business that's that's probably had about two two years two and a half years of wow this is really slow and this is this is this is tough you know you just kind of think god is any is this ever going to change are we ever going to you know really get started here and and that was right at the beginning and and it and then all of a sudden it did change you know and it's really hard to put my finger on i i you know i felt one maybe it's one time i remember being in the store saturday i was on my own it was always on my own it's either one of us we've taken it's only two of us so yeah we did everything so i was on my on saturday and uh and uh i was sitting around probably reading the paper or doing you know not much else to do and uh and someone someone came in this this couple came in and and uh they were quite glamorous couple i think he was from he was probably middle eastern uh i think i can't remember where she was from he lived in switzerland and i kind of got the feeling he was he was looking around thinking what am i doing here and she was kind of being very enthusiastic and saying i think she wear this and this is great you know and they ended up you know buying a lot of clothes you know out of out of nothing you know and i you know didn't know much about them and i thought okay if people like this can really understand and want to buy you know maybe there's something here maybe we can really really make it work so that was kind of a turning point i felt for me that was this kind of turning turning point because it's like obviously a very famous moment where you have uh gianni versace and elton john come in and you know clear out the store and this big moment that if you're in the journey long enough as founders, you often do find that moment.

20:12You've got to be patient and wait for that great moment. I agree. I think that's what was it like before that great moment then? So how much silence are we talking? A lot of silence, a lot of silence. And, and a lot of, I don't know what we're doing here. Is this, is this really, really going to work? I've listened to quite a few of your, your, your, your podcasts with other people. And it is that kind of you're waiting. There's a moment, there's a combination of you've given everything you can, you've tried as hard as you can, bit of luck, and then just waiting for that moment to happen. And actually that moment also was a very big moment for us because that time that, you know, Elson John came in, he bought John and Versace, they had their respective partners, they were sizes 38, 40, 42, 44, which is all we had in terms of tailoring the shop.

20:58And they basically bought everything. And kind of - And they literally bought everything. Literally bought everything, emptied the shop, you know, Oh, wow. We didn't have, you know. How much is that? That then wasn't an awful lot. I imagine it probably came to about£60 ,000 in terms of telling we're not much left. But, you know, we had other stuff left. But, you know, it really cleared us out. And having someone, you know, as respected as Gianni Versace was back then kind of coming and buying clothes, which he actually, I think his next collection was called Savile Rock. So he kind of, we inspired that collection.

21:34and and how does that happen how does how do they find out about you how do they decide to come in with such conviction so deeply into your store yeah because this is back this is obviously you know you know what probably 95 96 something like that so prior to any sort of social media we would have press in men's magazines i think you know newspapers things like that but i think word of mouth word of mouth was that's what we were relying on that's a great way of building a solid business then you know people tell their friends their friends tell you know and they come in and then you you have a really solid kind of recommendation basis absolutely impossible to do that now you would not have the time to do that your costs are too high your rent's too high all those things you'd be absolutely impossible to do that do that now back then we had the time to build on word of mouth and I think that's a really, really solid basis.

22:33Someone mentioned to Elton, John, you should go and check out this store, which he did. Did he literally walk in and say, I'm having everything? Or was he in for hours? He was in for quite a while. I can't remember how long it was. Probably didn't feel that long. Probably was a bit longer. No, probably an hour and a half, something like that. One of the things about having a retail environment is you want to create an atmosphere where people want to stay. You know, it's still what we want to do now. People spend time in and enjoy and relax in. So, you know, I think that was that. We had that feeling then.

23:07That's what happened. Who are some of the most interesting people you've made suits for? I've been really lucky to make suits for all sorts of people and many people. I think I remember when we first started, Madonna came into the store and she wanted to buy some clothes, I think it was for her brother. He apparently was the same size as me. So I kind of spent kind of half an hour with Madonna trying suits on and kind of modeling them for her. She was saying, no, I don't like that. Try this one. And that kind of went on for quite a while. And then I remember people coming to the show, what on earth is going on here?

23:39You're getting stalled by Madonna. I tried clothes on for Madonna whilst, you know, in a kind of store. Yeah, yeah, that was quite, that was, yeah, those sorts of things happen all the time. We made a, actually it was a coat for Sir Alex Ferguson. And that came about because we were doing something with Nike. They approached us to do something. We were going to work with them on upscaling a lot of their sportswear. I think that I remember having, we met someone, this is quite an interesting story on its own. We met someone who was running, I think it was the football, the football section of Nike.

24:15These guys all have, you know, tennis, football, golf, and they're all running kind of multi-billion pound businesses just on their own. and I think the guy one of the guys was running football he said his argument was like we have these fantastic athletes we dress them but you kind of go to the you know during the World Cup or turn up at the you know the Holland team's hotel and they're all sitting around wearing these bright orange polo shirts which are ill fitting and don't look don't look that good you know have a Nike swoosh on them but we want to try and improve that we want to try and you know can we tailor it can we improve that can we make the favourites So anyway, that was a conversation that was ongoing with Nike.

24:57And on the back of that, also, I think they wanted us to talk to their staff. I think I remember doing a massive presentation to all their store managers from all around Europe about service. How do you serve people? I've got to say, they were all fantastic. Great guys, young guys, really, really good. And they really were interested in learning. because obviously, you know, selling someone a bespoke suit is a very different to just someone walking in and off the street. And so they kind of wanted, how do you do that? How do you kind of convey that? How do you make people feel really valued? And that was part of our thing.

25:32Ultimately, we get to Alex Ferguson. So they said we got, I think it was the, I think it was the, it was a very big game. I think it was against Manchester City. Could you make Alex Ferguson a suit? So we went up there, went up to Carrington, I think where the training ground is and measured him and made him a coat. and I think we put a Nike swoosh lining in there or something. And yeah, it was great. It was a great, great thing. Fortunately, they lost that game. And I don't think he ever wore that coat again. The Oasis moment as well. That feels pretty special. Obviously quite relevant for today on their combat tour.

26:10Pretty much the most exciting thing I've got going on in my summer. Who are you going to do? Okay. So I'd love to know, you know, how did that come about? And they seem such unlikely people for that image, right? And when I really think of them, I think of like Stone Island and some like, you know, shell suits and that kind of vibe. This is such a juxtaposition. And juxtaposition is obviously one of the most visually stimulating ideas that can actually happen in fashion. So in many ways, it seems perfect. What was the experience for you? Yeah, I actually can't even remember how that happened, how they ended up coming in, I've got a feeling it's just, you know, wandered in.

26:51And that was... Where was the store? I mean, unbelievable. You know, it must have been right in front of people. Savile Row, no, we were on Savile Row and it was, yeah, I guess someone must have said something once again, a word of mouth. And I remember them coming. I remember the whole band coming in after Nedworth to have some suits made. And Liam, no, everybody. I mean, they were pretty worse for wear, as you can imagine. But I've got to say, you know, Liam, I think, was definitely the driving force. And he had really great taste. Yeah. Really great style. Yeah. Yeah. And he knew exactly what he wanted.

27:32You know, he wanted to have something made and he knew exactly what he wanted and how he wanted it to be. And it was, you know, it was fantastic. It was a real pleasure. You know what I mean? So we kind of made his suit when he got married to Patsy Kent. We made her suit as well. You know, I think we did the same for Noel. He got married. So, yeah, it was an amazing situation. And we kind of probably, at that time, I think the business was on such a roll that we kind of didn't take it for granted, but it was just happening. And you did Noel Gallagher's iconic number 10 suit as well. Yeah, I think when he went to meet Tony Blair.

28:08Yeah, yeah, yeah. Are you talking to them for the summer? Not allowed to talk about it, obviously. I'd love to, but I don't know. Not yet. Work on it. So I feel like that might be, you know, you were so busy, so successful, so many incredible people coming in. It almost just felt like that was the norm. It kind of, it did actually become like that. You know, I was feeling like I'm one of those kind of cab drivers. You never know who I had in the back of my cab last night. It's that sort of thing. One of the most iconic moments I remember, and I do remember pinching myself, is we were doing a fitting on Liam, and he was great.

28:50He was always quite funny. He was always kind of joking around. At the same time, we were doing a fitting on a captain of industry of a massive multinational company, serious businessman, big name. I can't remember saying his name, but well-known household name at the same time. and then in Walt Elson John as well. So we had three people, you know. That's very cool. Completely different. At the same time. Exactly the same time. And I remember thinking, God, how's this going to go? You know, because Liam's not shy. Yeah. But actually. Well, Elton's quite well known for being quite out there as well.

29:26And he was, you know, he's also not shy. And it just gelled. And I was standing back and I said, well, there can't be many businesses and the clothing businesses we have. these three people have very very different takes and very different styles ultimately having the same thing it's just their their approach and how they put it together and what they you know made the difference you know i'm making a very classic kind of business suit for one person and you know they were all more or less the same thing it's just they just the way they it's just their attitude they brought with it it changed it what do you think that you're offering at richard james that was just different to other people on sable row where you would find three types of people like that i think it's i think probably our approach number one um our flexibility as well to to to do things and you know i think there's people wanted to associate with with that particular style and and uh and yeah i think there's a you know the way we did something you know in terms of making things was no different to anyone else on savoura you know we we we all have to abide by the same process but yeah i think it's possibly probably approach as much as anything else and an openness what's the most sort of eccentric suit you've ever made like what's the the craziest thing you've ever been commissioned to do i don't i never really think anything's that crazy you know i think everything's possible and and and everything's open i do remember we had one of our clients kind of older gentleman very very wealthy and he used to have to wear a suit for the opera and I kind of think he was slightly resented it.

30:59So he asked us, could you make me a camouflage suit? You know, do a several row suit of camouflage. Like he's in the army? An army, basically army pattern suit. Yes, the British military. Yeah, that sounds great to be fair. Yeah, yeah. Well, that's like a rave. Yeah, yeah. We did that. And yeah, he looked great, you know, and he said he loved it because it kind of, you know, I guess it's kind of being disrupted before the word really existed then. and he'd turn up to the opera and have a box and still look really smart, but he was wearing a... Yeah, it's classy and outspoken at the same time. It's kind of is outspoken.

31:35It's challenging. Is there anyone that you wouldn't make a suit for? No. Putin walks in tomorrow. Okay. Are you doing that? Well, if he does come in, we have to assume everything's better. No, yes, that's a hard one to say. You'd be effing terrified turning him away. I mean, we have made suits for people that have turned out to be terrible people in the past, but not at the time, you know, so yeah. Prince Andrew walks in looking for a suit? We have made suits for Prince Andrew. Oh, you have? Okay, fair enough. I suppose when you first started, were there any, like, taboos that you made, any rules that you broke that, I mean, you said earlier that people gave your store quite funny comments about being you, but was there anything that you were doing seriously against the grain or rules that you were clearly breaking?

32:25There are lots of rules for men's tailoring, especially on South Rowan. There's so many. I mean, not supposed to wear brown shoes, suede shoes in the city, all that sort of kind of polar nonsense. I think you have to know the rules to be able to break them. So, yeah, no, there was nothing that we wouldn't consider if it looked good and if the person that was for was kind of comfortable in that. Absolutely. You know, no, the rules are there to be broken. What about partnering with high fashion figures like Christian Lacroix? Like, what does that do for reshaping? I mean, he came in right at the beginning.