Biochemistry Backed Skincare Formulations Ft. Kat Burki

0:28Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Energy. Please welcome Kat Berkey. Welcome, Kat. Thank you for having me. Yeah, I'm excited to host you. I'm excited to learn from you today and dive into the brand. It's a beautiful brand, by the way. I've been really enjoying it. I've been testing it myself, so it's been really lovely. Nice to hear that. Yeah. I'd love to learn about your background, though. If you could walk us down memory lane, tell us about your background and what got you into wanting to create a brand and bringing it into the skincare space. Tell us a little bit more about that. Yeah, so as you mentioned, my undergrad was nutrition.

1:03So it was really what my foundation was. And I think where I took that was more in understanding and the biology of how we uptake nutrients, how our body works with them. And then my future career went into healthcare law, and then epidemiology, and then I worked in disease management. So within disease management, really looking at all of these disease states, the top five, from my perspective, had an element of, of course they do. But what I was interested in was the element of nutrition within these disease groups. So from that, also, I learned over time, really how important the gut health is gut is just even now being developed and understanding how it plays a part in Alzheimer's or whatever it happens to be are definitely our mood and, and how it plays a part in health in general.

1:58And then the conversation that wasn't being had is that interesting gut skin connection, which is an organ. And I don't think in particular skincare in the industry was particularly looking at it as an organ, it was pretty much like a piece of cardboard, that we we kind of based ingredient stories around maybe or a marketing story or even like in the day it was more listen our our our food industry is the same way so yeah i mean there's a lot of things that aren't really looking into this as this is how this organ on the outside actually which is an incredible organ that is regenerating all the time and it heals all the time and that's what its role is so it our opportunity to make something that has incredible results is actually easier to do through skincare than through even our nutrition.

2:58Yeah, no, it's a really fascinating point you bring up actually, you know, because I think nutrition gets lumped up into this big word and it, nobody wants to break it down and talk about, you know, what is it that actually is good nutrition, right? When it comes to feeding your organs, like when it comes to feeding the gut skin brain access, what is the gut skin brain access, right? So I come from a very deep biomedical molecular biology background. And so when I look at this from my lens, I understand that there's a lot of marketing hype right now in the industry. And it's very irritating for me as a scientist, because when you really study cell cultures, and then you look at actual tissue organoid models of this stuff, right?

3:45It's not an axis that you're talking about. This is stuff that is, it has to do with the actual processing of foods and then what induces things like leaky gut, you know, what actually causes that. So that's where I want you to, I want you to focus on and teach us a little bit here, you know, because I think nutritional biochemistry hasn't had its day yet. And I would love for you to kind of talk to us about that. What, what in your mind is truly like good nutritional biochemistry? How should we be thinking about it? Well, it's beyond just ingredients. So everyone can go around and say, well, I have, let's say, you know, B3, right?

4:26I have this great ingredient. Well, that's really great. But you also have high levels of alcohol that basically that ingredient is devoid of any value. And skincare in particular, but our food we know does the same thing. But how do you one of the things from even vitamins or or in pharmacy is how do you combine ingredients to make them more potent. And one of the reasons why they're more potent, they're more vital, but also they get delivered to where they need to go. So these ingredients stories aren't taking into account of the biochemistry of how our body uptakes these nutrients. And then even the level of the biome, the biome is that top level and just it being off kilter how that influences future sometimes we'll go through acne is a really good example, your microbiome is, you know, higher levels of bad bacteria rather than the good microbes and your outbreak, you're not able to probably not able to even retain or bring in nutrients that your skin needs when it's dealing with this biome diversity that's off.

5:38And how do and then oftentimes, a doctor will give them antibiotics. So then then they're, it's going to influence. So just looking at everything from like, anything in biochemistry is almost that domino effect of how these all of these things work together. It's not one dimensional, but it's But there are interestingly synergies between how we uptake nutrients internally and how our skin uptakes nutrients, which is it's this living, breathing organism that actually brings in nutrients. So it's its own digestion almost. And and skin care in the most part is not looking at that. It's not looking at how do I make this available and how do I ingredient combine so that they're optimized for delivery and also for performance.

6:29And even things like silicones, dimethicones that are actually blocking or things like high levels of alcohol that are irritating and degrading the value of your other nutrients. So it's really looking at it from this holistic lens. And that's how our body operates. It's our body's actually extremely sturdy. But on the other hand, if it's off kilter or anything's not in its realm of homeostasis, it's going to have some kind of ill effect. Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a good point. You know, I think also it's more so like the skin. I don't know if the skin's like soaking it up, but the skin's version of those molecules that are being utilized, right?

7:13Like it's a very different version of them. So when you speak from like the biochemistry standpoint, I think that's important to understand as consumers is that like just because you feel like you're eating the right stuff doesn't mean that your skin is going to process it. You know, it doesn't mean that your kidneys are going to utilize it. It doesn't mean that your extracellular matrices are going to incorporate it into collagen production, right? There's like a giant misconnect, I feel like, in the world of nutrition. and as we're bringing it into skincare where people are thinking like if i eat this then i'm gonna get better collagen production you know or like i'm gonna get better antioxidant load in the tissues i wanted like the skin and that's just it's just not true you know that's just not how biology works so that's where i get very interested in the topical administration right yeah like that that's the real cool stuff yeah when i first started to realize skincare the opportunity that you have to heal this organ from the outside is so much more exactly what you just said.

8:16So when you digest, who knows where it's going. And first of all, it's going to go all different places. So it's not like this direct connection of that B that you happen to have and or fortification from in your cereal is going to actually whatever your skin. So it is the most direct way of healing the skin is through skincare, which is pretty powerful. Yeah, it's very powerful. You know, also another thing. So I want to talk about because you're you have wonderful products actually in your range. I think they're very to the point. I really appreciate that about your brand that is very to the point.

8:48It's not like it's not 50 skews, right, that we have to like sift through and figure out what do I need, you know, for my actual health of my skin. And I want you to speak on this a little bit because you've created some, I think, almost like multitasking products. When it comes to the skin's microbiome, when it comes to this idea of like we're trying to nourish the skin, right, above all else, what was your approach to that from the formulation side? What were the unique things that you did in the formulation side, I guess I should ask? Yeah, so it was actually difficult. I mean, it was difficult, but really important.

9:22It's really important to have an element of vitamin therapy, I believe, in any skincare product, because just like what we eat, you need vitamin therapy to not only help you have the bioavailability of the other ingredients, some of them are healing in of themselves, but also that protective element to the skin. So that's a huge part of every single formula, synergistic ingredient combining. Obviously, I'm looking for things that are going to be anything that has an element of even hydrogenation or something where you're manmade taking one molecule, moving it to another. I avoid. I'm looking for things that are going to allow what we call is our nutrient delivery system.

10:04the best way to get the most potent, whatever your factor, every product has a different effect or a different goal in mind and result in mind. Whatever that formula is for that, how do I get that delivered to where it needs to go is a huge part of it. Because if it's just sitting on top, or that ingredient isn't vital anymore, then it's not really of any use to you. Yeah. So I guess my question is more so like, you're talking from this nutritional standpoint, point, right? So like, that's the whole, that's the whole stance you're taking. So where did you incorporate that into the topical side of it?

10:41Yeah, so everything. So it's more the how our body uptakes nutrients and looking at how that health of that biome is in order to take up the nutrients that it needs to take. So it's really that more of a less, I mean, nutrition is a part of it, but it's more the biochemistry, nutritional biochemistry element to it, of how do I get the most comprehensive ingredient deck with the ingredients we know through relationships. And we've already studied and researched how different ingredients work well together. How do I deliver it to where it needs to go? It's really the point of difference in every product.

11:19And, and, but we do have some biome specific products. So if it's a biome specific product, we don't have to worry about where it's going to go because the biome is that top, top level. So then the science is a little bit different. And it's really looking at that biodiversity. How do I give it the antimicrobials to drive down the bad microbes? How do I give it prebiotics to drive up great microbes? And how do I give it the vitamin therapy so that it can, this beautiful organ heals all the time. It's in this healing mode. We get cut and it goes into motion to get it back to where it needs to be.

11:58How do you give the target those ingredients that will help it deliver whatever that result is, is really how we're using that science. Makes sense. Yeah, it makes sense. And I think with vitamins also, I think the idea of like true like synergy and what allows vitamins to be absorbed comes up a lot as well. Right. So it's like, that's a component that I think no one really discusses is that like, you know, you can have vitamin therapy, but then like, if you, like you said, like if the biochemistry doesn't make sense, you know, those vitamins aren't really going to synergistically be absorbed, you know, to where they're anywhere or, or have any strength.

12:36Yeah. Or I mean, I'm always surprised. People will say, well, how do you read ingredient deck? Well, there's like a couple things just to see if like, if the brand is actually thinking about healing. I mean, ultimately, this is all about healing. And if it doesn't have vitamins in it, for the most part, I just find that unusual, because need that's how we we keep free radical damage from having which is super, super important on the skin, obviously. It's also how we deliver other nutrients if you're not just delivering vitamins. So I just think it's not and then hopefully the next level if they do have vitamins in there, how thoughtful is it?

13:13And is there a reason for that? And how does it work with the other ingredients for whatever you're trying to achieve? Right? No, absolutely. I think the biggest thing about vitamins that I wish we would see a lot more of in terms of education was is like the idea of them being cofactors. And I think like, that's where like all of this really comes together in such a beautiful way in the body is that you know like the body has it utilizes cofactors and everything and no one wants to discuss this like it's crazy to me and and especially now when we're seeing so much biotech right i mean the world is skincare world especially right now it's flooded with biotech i feel like and everyone's like well you know i i'm a huge fan of for example encapsulation i think encapsulation was brilliant.

14:00I think it gets things deeper. But at the same time, there's a lot of biotech fluff out there too. So we're still, you know what I mean? Like, we're still like circling the drain is my point. Yeah, I mean, it's not about the one thing or the one peptide, group of peptides or whatever it is that happens, because they can have this beautiful group of peptides. Let's say they are something fantastic. Yeah. It needs to be with delivered within an envelope of cofactors or whatever is going to actually deliver it deeper or, or actually encourage the vitality of that particular, for instance, B vitamins and peptides work really well together, because they're kind of operating from helping the amino acids go into gear.

14:47And then you have the peptides that kind of keep the nice meshing in place. But it's not thought that way, you'll it'll be within an ingredient deck that it's doesn't mean anything. So yes, it might be, they might have invented something great, but it still needs a lot more to back up in the body in some ways is more grateful for more simplistic things. Sometimes, you know, if it just needs to get to this baseline of healing and baseline of healthy nutrients and healthy biome levels, then you can really, I think that's a super important threshold. And then you start thinking about how do I go in and, and reverse pigment, you know, or reverse fine lines and wrinkles or whatever, or give it the call it help the collagen reproduce and all of that.

15:31I'm just curious, how does your peptide complex differ from like what you've seen as conventional ways of people doing peptides? I mean, I really do enjoy peptides. I think they're great. So sometimes when I make that example, I just think it's I was more so talking about what you were saying with there's a lot of hype in biotech. And it's like, if you really start drilling it down of what they're talking about, you kind of like, if you look at the ingredient deck, you're like, okay, that doesn't really make sense to me. But I like to use copper peptides. I love to use them with B vitamins for exactly what I said.

16:06I think B vitamins are one of the most important vitamins. And I believe in a B vitamin complex, because they all kind of have their own roles to really reproduce proteins. So they're super, super important in skincare. And I know a lot use them, but again, it's how it's used and what are the team players within that formula and what state is the skin in to begin with? I mean, I talk to people often and I feel horrible. They're just mortified of their skin. And it really could be something so simple that they could really get their skin back to like a baseline and then you can start working on it, but they'll be using acids and then they go and they use something strong because they're upset.

16:49And, and, and they don't know what to believe on top of it, which is kind of where people are in in even diets, going back to the beginning of our conversation, really in this day and age, not knowing quite what do I believe, or what should I believe? And I'm told this message and that message and that message. So yeah, I think I I think peptides are great. I just think they need to be in a legitimate, I just think there shouldn't be so much marketing hype around any of it because it's too important to people. Yeah, no, I know. And I really like, you know, the word peptide, honestly, Kat, at this point, I'm just kind of like, God, stop using that word.

17:28I swear to God. Yeah. Like, I mean, it just before we were obsessed with collagen and now we're obsessed with peptides and I'm like I mean what are peptides right like it's like you gotta like people gotta have to understand like I think and you know I get frustrated because of the consumers you know I get frustrated on behalf of the consumer community and all of us and we we buy into this stuff right because it's like okay peptides cool amino acids linked together well that doesn't mean shit sorry to say it but it doesn't mean shit yeah and then what and like you know where does the peptide go does it actually trigger like a receptor you know conformational change does it go and bind to something and cause metabolic cascades like what are we doing here with the peptides and so i think that's where the you really got to separate out as a consumer you know what i mean where it's like wait a minute why am i spending three hundred dollars on some cream that's just telling me it's a peptide cream i need to think about what does my skin need where can i help it from?

18:32Like, what angle do I need? So yeah, it's, it's a very complex, I think, area. I really and I feel the same way as you do. I mean, I hear all and I sometimes I even hear people saying some of the things that we say, like recently, someone was talking about, you know, precise delivery of the ingredients. And I'm like, Okay, that's interesting, because that's been part of who our DNA is from the beginning. But then that particular product that they were saying that about was like a quarter way through the ingredient deck, silicones and dimethicones. I'm like, okay, well, you're not getting anything anywhere.

19:06So I just think people just hop on these, you know, phrases and just hope it sticks. And unfortunately, it does stick for a lot of people. And they do believe it and they go buy it. And then their skin's not making any progress. And it's a beautiful organ that actually is so receptive and can change instantly. It really can. It's not like every time you hear three to, you know, six to eight weeks or it really is like a wilting plant that once you give it what it needs, comes back to life almost instantly. Right. No, I agree. I completely agree. I think that's where it's really remarkable, you know, what kind of organ the skin is.

19:49You know, people say, people always say it's like the largest organ. And I'm like, no, actually, it's one of the most complex organs. Like it's, you know, like it's like, I mean, it's got a serious job to do. Yeah, it's got a serious job to do. And it interfaces the most, you know, with everything that's going on, whether that's internal, whether that's external. Like, I mean, there's just such complex mechanisms that are at play in your skin and the different layers that I think when it comes to skin care, there's a huge responsibility, right? on like on the people making the biotech the people making these like therapeutic you know like avenues right so i give i mean for me i think for the general consumer i always just i worry because i think people you know they end up trying a million things and then you know they say my skin barrier will disrupt it actually sometimes it's not just your skin barrier you You end up disrupting a hell of a lot more.

20:46Yeah. And they don't even, yeah, I hear barrier all the time. It's a little bit more than barrier. Like here is basically the, you know, carrying the water that we need, but there's so much more beyond that and past that. And then there's the biome, which is separate from that, which is super important. So, you know, that's another one that's kind of a catchphrase right now. Oh, yeah. The microbiome has become a very big buzzword. And unfortunately, you know, that's a whole different, we could have a whole master class on this, you know what I mean? Yeah. But, you know, I want to talk a little bit about when you were like, I guess from the brand side of it, when you were looking for the tried and trues in your formulas, I mean, they're always tried and trues, right?

21:29In every great formula. What were they for you? Like, what were ingredients that you were like, I'm not going to compromise on these because these are really going to work. They always work or, you know, something like that. Yeah, so I think the one of the most difficult parts I had was more getting the right labs that knew that because they're the same as what we've been talking about. They've been making the same things forever. And it's really about how it feels and how it, you know, not so much what it can, how it can perform. So for me, the bigger thing, and my team has been trying to get the delivery of the ingredients to where they need to go within a deck that's free of things that we know will compromise that vitality and that delivery.

22:13So that was the biggest thing. And it still is to this day, depending on what we're working on, getting that to happen that way. But at the very beginning, my very first product was the vitamin C intensive face cream. and the importance of vitamin C. I know people, that's another one, right? Everyone loves vitamin C, but it's so important to the skin for multiple reasons. And I think looking at it with that very, I go back to that very first formula and the colloidal silver that we're using for the microbiome and the health of the skin and then the delivery of it through with the reishi mushroom.

22:52And there's no silicones, there's no dimethyl. So the great thing is that that was more of a simple, I mean, that doesn't sound simple, but it was more of a simple formula for us, but it really had all the triggers that really to this day are who we are. And I think what people, just like when you, when you know you're being healthy for your body internally, when you can tell the difference between a really healthy product, it sounds simplistic, but you can. When you put it on, first of all, you'll see rapid absorption because your skin recognizes it and it's bringing it in. And you'll, as I said, you should see a result right away.

23:29So I think that was the formula that really kind of people knew it. And they felt it and people at that time were starting to be thinking about the skin. And like the look was a healthy look. It wasn't looking at just at the beginning, people were thinking, you know, we were actually in New York, where we launched and a lot of models and brands having, you know, sending their models out on the runway, it wasn't about makeup anymore. It was about healthy skin. So I just, I think that probably is the formula that still to this day, even though I have much more like, you know, like your children, there's much more that I love so much that the ingredients and the formulas are more complex, but I do think that kind of stands for who we are as a brand even now.

24:17You know, it's crazy. You're using colloidal silver, which I know, I don't know why, but like this is one of those ingredients that it's very close to my heart because i love it i love colloidal silver and people it's it's gotten a bad rap actually for no reason and i'm like i don't get why people go after certain i mean colloidal silver is one of the strongest things you can use against things like fungal acne like i don't know right like it's it's crazy i mean i'm glad you're using it i'm really glad you're using it that's really cool to have in a formula where i know you used 15 stabilized vitamin c how did that work when you were integrating it with something like silver?

24:52Because I know that silver has certain things that it destabilizes a lot of things. Well, you just can't have too high of a percentage of it to begin with. So you just have to really, it's more of a percentage play with that. But it's actually going to help bring it in, right? So it's helping with that environment of the skin where you can actually bring in the vitamin C in a more rapid way and a healthier way. So there really wasn't any as far as the actual stability of the formula as a whole. But the vitamin C that we we chose is one that is more stable. We researched that on purpose. And that can actually more I hate to say it this way, but it almost opens up once it's delivered.

25:41Yeah, so there wasn't a problem with that. I'm not actually the one mixing the formulas by the way i'm the one who comes up with the formulas every single formula and really works back and forth with the lab and to get it to where it needs to be and if it isn't stable i probably never even see it at that point yeah i think sometimes we can't tell if something's stable or not you know because when you're mixing formulas you can have a batch you're creating and it might be stable and then it becomes unstable after some time So that's just how chemistry, unfortunately. So let's talk about your scalp products.

26:18I think that's fascinating that you have scalp product. I think, again, scalp is an area that's never really talked about. It's probably the most, I think, complex skin area, you know, I think, because it's not exposed to as much light and as much of the environmental factors. So what was your take on that? I mean, I would love to learn from you about what you think from the nutritional biochemistry component. What should we know about the scalp? I mean, I think the biggest thing we should think about is the scalp period. Like, I don't think people even consider it. Yeah, it's it's this it's a big part of our, it's our skin, but it's the top of our head.

26:55And our hair grows out of it. We're very concerned about our hair and we're and the health of our hair and hair loss, which has been increasing all the time over the last few years. And a real problem. So I don't think it's really funny. I was really so we I have this one line called our renewal line, which is really where by the time around 2016, 17, I really started getting more into the different ingredients and using copper peptides and looking at how they work and all of that kind of stuff. And I knew with the proteins and the B vitamins and all that, that that would be great for hair, but it wasn't time.

27:34And I just didn't even have the wherewithal as a brand to even really start learning. I needed to learn more, obviously, because it is different there. You know, there's the hair regrow cycle is different than the skin cycle. So I really needed to take time and learn about that more, but knew that there was definitely this whole world of the skin that no one and even I mean, people just now are really and they are, which is great. Everyone like when we just launched the the hair treatment, I was really surprised by how many videos people were just on, you know, social media using it in their scalp.

28:14So it became mainstream that this is a scalp. This is our skin, this is an extension, and it does play a part in our hair, we grow cycle. So and think about what we do to our scalp. So our scalp is, you know, the sun's on it, we are spraying it, we are chemically changing color, we are, you know, using hot rollers and, and it could go on and on. So I think it's just, just like we're waking up to skincare, like, let's be real with skincare and talk about it from a real healing perspective, which is what it's supposed to do. And let's be real. Let's talk about the scalp. So I think it's, I think it's amazing what we are talking about now and how we're looking at things yeah no i think the scalp is very fascinating because i think a lot of the products out there are actually just congesting the scalp so that's that's the biggest problem i have with scalp products is that you know we're literally using it as another marketing you know thing where we can be like oh god you need scalp care products now yeah your scalp's been fine for 30 years you know what I mean like for 20 30 years your scalp was totally fine and all of a sudden I need scalp products why like you know so I think when you when you talk about the scalp you have to understand what you actually need versus you don't you know so I know there's a lot of people right now on GLP ones so they're losing a lot of hair they're getting a lot of dry scalp issues you know there's a lot of things going on in that realm where I can totally see somebody like that right leaning in and saying i need to find great scalp products because i'm having issues or even anyone who's experiencing early onset alopecia and you're you know you're dealing with things that are really true pathology when it in relation to the scalp that's where you need products you know i think when it comes to actual understanding of the scalp we don't know nearly enough about it to where we can formulate like products that are supposed to be for daily use i just don't think that the whole consumer market needs to be focused there you know and i I've had these conversations with trichologists, right, where they want to, like, talk about this, but then it's like, at the end of the day, like, it just comes down to what kind of water are you using when you wash your hair, you know?

30:33Like, what kind of mineral deposition is going on, you know, on your scalp? Like, what does that actually mean? Again, like how we were talking about, you know, topical delivery of anything for the skin is the most powerful way of delivery. So, if you have something like mineral deposition, yeah, you're going to have dysbiosis of the microbiome on your scalp. absolutely and that's when you come in with something that's clarifying you know what i mean that's soothing that's gonna help with the inflammation going on so i think from that standpoint it makes sense and i like the stance that you've taken with your scalp because you're working with fermented fermented fermentation is where you focus and i love that because that's the real stuff you know what i mean so let's talk about that what are your thoughts on like fermentation products i know they're kind of also becoming buzzy right now but but still What's the take?