Decoding The Science of Beauty with Dr. Steven Dayan

22:27So we went there. And it's not necessarily to make them bigger, but to give them better shape. So we presented that. And I did a paper here in the U.S. looking at skin types four, five, and six, which are mostly African-American patients. What happens if we fill their lips? Their satisfaction is so high. They want their lips filled, but that's not how we're taught here. We're taught to go by these scales and these numbers, and it doesn't achieve our goals. That's where we stare wrong. We get bad outcomes, whether in patients' current culture, patients from another culture, or different age groups.

22:54Yeah, I love that topic. And I think that's so valid, everything you're saying, because being myself, being an Indian American and being raised in America, I struggled with this my entire life. I would look at my Caucasian friends and be like, I don't know what to buy for myself, or even something like makeup, something simple with beauty, always a struggle because you don't know even lining your lips or like putting on blusher however it becomes this struggle for a lot of people i love what you said and being able to bring that to aesthetics i feel like that would be absolutely game-changing for obviously the field but then the customers the patients like people who actually want to know what it feels like to feel beautiful without having to compare themselves all the time i talk about this a lot on my podcast skincare because i want to dive into your brand that's a beautiful line just to preface we talk a lot about okay this is what everybody needs.

23:44Everyone needs over exfoliation or you need glass skin and it's that's not true. If you have super melanated skin, you need to get rid of hyperpigmentation. You can't buy the products that are geared for over exfoliating, too much retinoids, too much. It doesn't make sense. Let's go into XOMD. That's a beautiful line and I want to dive into the philosophy behind it. Where were your thoughts when you were wanting to create a line for the skincare stage? This is a beautiful story on so many levels. So as we talked just a few minutes ago, my passion is the science of attraction, the science of beauty.

24:18I wrote a book in 2014. I taught a class on it, a New York Times bestseller on it. I've published probably 100 to 200 articles on the science of beauty. It's my passion. I recognize there's more needed in skincare than making skin look beautiful. My goal is to really improve people's lives. Sabrina Fabi, who is my partner in life, is a dermatologist, just ranked number 5th in the world by Newsweek Magazine. She's incredible. She is super knowledgeable about skincare on every level. Both of us have spent so much time consulting with companies. There are companies that have sold for over a billion dollars that her and I have been behind the science.

24:54We've helped with it. We've created it. We're behind the scenes. Every year for probably the last decade, I've had someone come to me and say, Steve, we want to put your name on a brand. Can we slap your name on a brand and be your brand? And I can never do it. Sabrina's had the same opportunities. If I put my brand, look, I'm Dr. Steven, I'm famous and look at this skincare brand. That's not me. It's not authentic. It's like Michael Jordan's got a steakhouse here in Chicago. Michael Jordan doesn't create the steaks. He just puts his name on there. I couldn't do that. So I had to do something unique and different based on my insights, my theories, and ways in which I think I can make a real difference.

25:28I wanted to pour in the science of attraction. Sabrina wanted to come up with skincare that can really make someone look, that can really help women of all ages, especially women going through hormonal issues. We've all bantered about oxytocin. Now, oxytocin is one of the most wonderful molecules that exist in nature. Some call it nature's medicine. It's incredible that we have this powerful molecule all within us, and we all know it, we feel it. When you are in love, when you have a baby in your hands, you glow. You feel great. Euphoric feeling. You get a high like you've never had from anything else.

26:02Everyone who's in love knows that feeling. The first time those tingles of love is oxytocin. When you hold a baby, many women will tell you breastfeeding is one of the calmest, most serene, most satisfying time periods in their life. Because guess what? Their oxytocin levels are at an all-time high. When women are ovulating, their oxytocin levels go up. Oxytocin is a molecule that's way too big to get into the skin. But we take it as a nasal spray. It's got a short half-life. But could I elevate oxytocin levels? That was the first thought in my mind. And during COVID, we all felt the same thing.

26:41COVID was a monumental shift in all of our social mores. We sat around behind a screen and talked to people. At first, it seemed great. It was simple, easy, comfortable. but quickly we learned something was missing. A conversation over a street is not the same. We are social beings. We need to be with each other. COVID was devastating. Depression rates went up 57 % in teenage girls. Suicide ideations, 30%, 13 % of teenage girls attempted suicide. Oh my gosh, these numbers are drastic. People were drinking. We were dying. We are social beings. So why is that? When we're in someone else's presence, we thrive.

27:24it's not just that we're next to them that we're talking to them there's a communication that happens between humans when we're in the same area in the same space we call it energy but what is that energy we've never defined it what is that energy so i was on a mission like this is all circling in my head and then i have to preface it by in 2020 i wrote a paper as the first of its kind to show that blind people who are visually blind they cannot see 2400 vision If I put someone in front of them, three feet away from them, they can detect how beautiful they are, just as good and consistent with someone with normal vision.

27:59Wow. It was a 2020 paper I published in Dermatological Surgery. It was one of the best papers of the year. And it was the first time someone was able to say that blind people can detect beauty. How do blind people detect beauty? Now, I based it on studies that show that blind people can detect risk and danger. If they can detect risk and danger, maybe they can detect beauty because both of that happens in the amygdala. So we have an innate sense to sample the people around us, and we can tell if they're a threat or if they're beautiful. Beauty, in my definition, means they're healthy, well, and they have good genes.

28:31So if someone's in front of you, you feel they have healthy and good genes. Women are better at detectiveness than men. You're much more self-aware. Men were not so good, but women are really good at it. Remember a time where someone's sitting next to us, and we get this feeling. Like, oh my gosh, you feel a tingling. Why do you feel that? You are picking up the sense between you two. I was fascinated by this concept. Then COVID hits, we're missing something. I started diving deeper into all of this. Then Sabrina gets pregnant. Okay. Yeah. And she glows. She walks into the room and it lights up.

29:02And I was like, oh my gosh, it's oxytocin. It's oxytocin. So we started looking into the chemistry of oxytocin. Could we get it? How do we increase it? Then I stumbled across something known for 20 years, but no one's touched on it. And the neurochemistry of the skin. the skin brain axis has been overlooked for 20 years first described in 2002 but many people don't realize that within your skin is dopamine serotonin endorphins and caphalins and oxytocin many neuropeptides neural means neural hormones that are in your brain also are in your skin how does that happen your ecto your brain and skin evolved from the same germinal layer when you're an embryo.

29:45So when you're an embryo growing as one or two cells, the same parts that developed into your brain also develop into your skin. So you're embodied, which means your skin is embodied with nerve endings. There were 5 million free nerve endings in your skin, right? And they are little sensory monitors that are picking up all the time on your environment. They're telling you if the temperature is hot, they're telling you the temperature is cold. They're also picking up on people around you, constantly giving your brain information at a subconscious level. An animal knows to run when it senses danger.

30:17The reptile, crocodiles have consciousness, but how does it know to run from danger? We have that innate ability, we're just not self-aware of it. So we have the ability to sense our environment. We have the ability to sense people around us. And one of the ways we do it is with these neurohormones and neuropeptides that are in our skin. When someone touches you, your oxytocin levels in your skin go up. I'm particularly interested in oxytocin. Serotonin goes up. When you sit in the sun, you feel good. How does that happen? You sit in the sun, you feel good. It's not because you're like, oh, I like the sun.

30:49It's because your skin is telling your brain, it feels good. It needs some vitamin D. Sun is bad, so I want to go there. But oxytocin became my interest because I realized oxytocin gives you that glow. oxytocin makes you feel great. Oxytocin reduces anxiety and oxytocin fosters pair bondings, brings couples closer together. So can I elevate oxytocin levels? Yes, I found a jasmine derivative. Jasmine is a beautiful flower recognized throughout the world and Sanskrit and from your part of the world. It has such, such a storied history and used during wedding ceremonies or fertility ceremonies and it's still prevalent in many parts of the world yeah and it's she who intoxicates is how the sanskrit originally talks about it so why is jasmine so great why is it in baths why is the smell attractive because jasmine has an ability to stimulate oxytocin levels in the skin i went back and found neurochemistry to show this and some articles to show some 2000 early 2000s that show this.

31:54I was like, okay, if I can get that jasmine to increase the levels of the oxytocin in the skin, can that have a positive influence on the way our skin looks? And yes, oxytocin is an incredibly powerful antioxidant, anti-inflammatory, angiogenic. It reduces inflammatory mediators. So it's really wonderful for the skin along with many other parts of your body. My goal was to get that elevated. So I was able to find a molecule that's been reported to that in the biochemical literature and oxytocin is unique because when it goes up in your skin it signals your brain to release more so it has positive feedback with your brain your brain releases more which makes you feel good it's the reason why when someone gives you a hug massage or you kiss someone your oxytocin levels go up you feel it in your skin then in your brain and you feel that you're close to that person when oxytocin levels go up your pupils dilate men and women stand closer together women find men more attractive in fact they find masculine men more attractive than feminine men, which mammals stand closer, mate guard next to their partner, or she's ovulating, your oxytocin levels are high.

32:52Memory gets improved. So all these wonderful things that happen when oxytocin levels go up. You have a student of the science of attraction, and like, what if I put a pheromone in here? What would happen? Now pheromones are controversial, and I think you probably know what pheromones are, but for those in the audience who don't know what pheromones are, they're chemical messengers that species that work within the same species, you emit them, the same, someone of a biological being of the same species picks up on that chemical messenger and it influences their physiology or their behaviors. And where is it most commonly recognized is in mating.

33:28When they're in heat or ovulating, a female releases a pheromone, usually from the groin area or general area and the armpits. It gets picked up by the opposite sex attracted and they mate. What's a signal? Do humans emit pheromones? It's controversial and the prevailing theory is no by many social psychologists. I believe in them because there's enough evidence, research to show that humans express pheromones. We just don't recognize it as well. We're not self-aware about it. But if we can train ourselves to be self-aware, yes. I decided to put what I believe was a pheromone. I found a carob.

34:02Carob is a legume that's common to the Mediterranean basis, also a storied history. It's recognized throughout cultures as an afrodisiac, as well as an antioxidant, anti-inflammatory. It's good for digestion. Many people use it for the skin, but it also has a long history of being an afrodisiac. Now, why is it an afrodisiac? No one explained that. So I dove deep into the literature. I really spent a lot of time researching this, and I was able to find articles from the early 2000s showing that one of the derivatives of carob, once you distill it, is isobutric acid. Isobutric acid is a volatile fatty acid that women release during ovulation.

34:39And women don't know they release that, but they release it. When men smell that, it's got a buttery aroma to it, they get instantly more attractive. Their testosterone levels go up, and they even think of themselves as more attractive. So when I found that, I'm like, okay, let's pour some of that into this product. And then Sabrina was like, okay, we need to make the skin look great. So she made sure that there were quality products and they're like a vitamin C, a vitamin E, a ferulic acid, as well as tyrodusinase inhibitors, other anti-inflammatory and anti-agentic properties. We have a peptide recognized to increase collagen and elastin formation, to thicken up the phospho-decylular membranes for repair, reducing redness and brownness.

35:18We put all that together. It's not easy to get that to play nice. So we had to go through multiple iterations before we found the perfect formulation. And we thought we had it. And then the viscosity had to be good and all that. Then we said, let's test it. Now this is going on for three years. This doesn't happen overnight. We're going to do a double blind placebo randomized control crossover trial. And I know you know what that is, but many people out there don't know what that is. That is the strictest of clinical testing you can do. You can't get any stricter than that. The cosmetic companies do not do that.

35:50Why? Because it's very expensive. Your chance of having a good outcome are low, very low. So why would you spend all that money when you can stick the money and spend it in marketing if you're a startup? But Serena and I, reputations of 20 years, we are not going to put our name on something unless we could prove a difference. So we did, we put it to the test. We didn't tell anyone about it. Six months later, the test is done and we get our results back. Oh my gosh. I cannot act the results were so profound and I was like I can't believe this we looked at skin quality and a statistical significance of 0.0001 what that means is that the possibly that this happened just by random occurrence is one in ten thousand the chance of this happening the vehicle the product we're creating is 99.99 percent because of us what we created skin quality was improved, decreased redness, decreased dryness, increased radiance, increased dewiness, and increased hydration at a skin quality level.

36:49Then all those measures that we talked about in the first half of our conversation here about the soft signals, the psychosocial skills, where my passion is, are women more attractive if they wear this product? Four weeks later, in eight weeks, we tested it, and yes, they were found to be more attractive. There's eight categories we looked at. 508 and statistical significance. All eight had increased improvement. They were all found to be more attractive when they were using our product. But statistical significance and putting attractiveness, they look three years younger. They look like they made more money.

37:21They look like they're academically more successful. They look like they're more socially successful. They dated more successfully and are more attractive. That blew our mind. Then we're like, do these women find men more attractive? And the answer to that question was yes. They found men more attractive also. Now, mind you, both of these and the skin quality and all three of the skin quality and attractiveness levels and looking at what they found as the opposite sex more attractive, placebo is zero, no change. So this was our vehicle, our active ingredient was showing all this improvement. Placebo was finding nothing.

37:53Then we looked at something that never gets looked at in any study that you will see in skincare. And we weren't going to talk about this. I was like, Sabrina, let's just put this in there because I'm curious. I promise we won't talk about it, but I'm curious. I just want to see if we can have this influence. And that's on sexual satisfaction. Can we improve sexual satisfaction? Because I put a pheromone in there and I want to test it. It worked. So we took a scale from the sexual health and wellness literature called the New Sexual Satisfaction Scale. It's a validated scale for the audience who doesn't know what that means.

38:28That means the scale that's tested and determined to be reliable and accurate for what we're attempting to test. So it's a validated scale. It means gone through already a vetting process, a good scale. So we tested sexual satisfaction in our group using our active. It was so profound that I couldn't believe it. 18 out of 20 categories were statistically significant improvement in sexual satisfaction. And it was things like, do you have better arousal? Are you more available? The frequency and the intensity of your climax, your orgasms. And we were looking at things like that. And these are things we don't talk about in skincare, but it was profound.

39:02What was placebo? zero. I'm like, I'm like, that's insane. So I'm like, this is a mistake. So I called up sanitation. I'm like, I think we made a mistake. This can't be possible. She's okay. She rechecks it. She's like, no, Dr. Diane, it's right. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I was like blown away that skincare can do that because how is it doing that? Now, is it increasing oxytocin or is it the pheromone or is it that people are so happy with their skin, they feel so good about themselves that they're showing up better in their relationships. Hard to say. We went to the partners of the people that were in the trial and we said, okay, how is your sexual satisfaction?

39:38Five out of five categories of statistical significance. Partners were also, the premise is why do this? I created a skincare line that falls within the philosophy that I strongly believe in, is I'm going to make you a better version of yourself. If I don't do that, then why are you coming to me? If my skincare doesn't work for you, then why are you using it? Right. I presented this data at multiple medical conferences over the last year. And everyone gets up there and they they pitch their skincare and we've been focused on collagen and elastin. Okay, I can increase collagen and elastin. That's so pre-COVID.

40:13We're post-COVID. Let's get into the 2020s. Tell me what you do for me. What does your skincare do for me that doesn't just increase my collagen and elastin? Because no patient comes in and says, Dr. Diane, I want more collagen and elastin. I can scrub my arm over your hand and give you more collagen or the brush if I scrub hard enough I'll increase collagen that's not the end metric the end metric is do I make you have a better life that's neurochemistry and neurocosmetics we coined it the world's first moodceutical and we trademarked that because we're like this is something unique and differentiated and new and it's very hard to get people to understand that unless they understand the whole story behind it so I'm glad you asked me about it because it's very intricate it's very complex but it makes it's very simple and then it makes so much sense that is the future i feel like that's first of all that's phenomenal congratulations and thank you for this i interview skincare brands every day and i've been and i love skincare but that is next level that's an entire it's not only a new category but the data that you're looking at is a whole different lens that's huge and i feel like if there's anybody in the audience like entrepreneurs you know you gotta to learn from this okay because I'm also am sick of seeing the same redundant stuff we keep testing the same stuff I had this conversation a month ago I mentioned this earlier retinoids for example and all the classical things that we've studied so extensively in dermatology and all there's tons of papers out there whatever and that's wonderful but it's exactly where you've touched on so many times in our conversation where it's like we have to go beyond that because just putting a retinoid on five nights a week and then thinking that's not enough because people are complaining of all these other downstream effects.

41:52They're still coming back about hyperpigmentation concerns. They still feel like their husband's not noticing their skin looks better. These are real things. I'm blown away by this approach. If we can get there as a society where everybody is pushing for this train of thought and for this approach, there's going to be a huge fluctuation in the way consumers interact with their beauty products. How many dollars are we spending every month on like just random skincare now we have k-beauty everywhere i'm not against k-beauty but we're buying the same thing over and over again that's absolutely phenomenal i'm so excited and this philosophy goes deep it's not just skincare right i believe i'm opening up a whole lane into aesthetics which i've been pushing for 25 years is to think about aesthetics differently don't think about it just making someone more beautiful on the micro levels giving better proportions to their face or better angles or wrinkles or just getting more collagen and more elastin and more ground substance more hyaluronic no that's not what people are asking me for they want to look better feel better not anyone know what they did and make their life better let's go there and work backwards whether we're doing facelifts nose jobs skincare or we're doing any other product in the aesthetic industry people say you can get all the procedures in the world but if you don't have a good skincare routine and if you don't do something that's like actually going to help it doesn't matter it doesn't matter how much filler you get how many surgeries you get done you have to have something you maintain I always used to wonder this myself was like why is that why did they say that and I don't think it comes down to just topical application of different molecules if you're taking care of your skin every day in and day out and noticing a difference your overall satisfaction with any procedure you get any augmentation that's going to actually increase people are probably going to notice that I already feel good about my skin but a little tweak here and there that's a different mindset than someone desperate going into a clinic saying, just fix me.

43:41It's a whole different mindset. So from that perspective, as a consumer and even medical side, I'm excited about what you're doing. This is absolutely revolutionary. Oh, thank you. And neurocosmetics, mark my words, you're going to hear more about it. When we first came out with this, I've had skeptics. I don't believe it. I don't get it. But anyone who's a scientist who recognizes the literature, and I can present it all, so I publish it in a peer review journal. But there's articles I'll reference. I have hundreds of them. It talks about neurocosmetics, the fact that we overlooked it for so long is like, how did we miss this?

44:10These neuroformals, neuropeptides are already in your skin. Why don't we leverage what we already have there to improve not only the quality of our skin, but also what we feel about ourselves. So you're going to see it. Mark my words. Since I've put this out there, I've had friends who are in the media, Steve, I don't believe it. I've had critics in skincare, Steve, I don't believe it. I'm like, here, read my paper. I didn't believe it either. I did the study. Now I'm starting to see other articles. I'm an editor of medical journals, but I'm also the director of multiple meetings. I get abstracts and now I'm starting to see it.

44:42I know we had talked about this earlier, but where's the future of healthcare going in aesthetic healthcare? You're going to see emerging. You're going to see neurocosmetics. Mark my words is coming. And you're going to have, I may be the first, but I'm not the last that's going to talk about these neurocosmetics. It's coming. Sexual health wellness, holistic health, peptides, and aesthetics are merging. They're interconnected. No, I completely agree with you. Trust me. I am one of those people that I've always believed in this, even when I didn't go into medicine. And I think a lot of us do. I hear from our listeners every day and they're not looking for the same solutions.

45:14They're not because it's not working. This is one of my biggest questions for you because you're at that intersection of true education and your own practice. Where do you think we need to focus now as the medical community in terms of raising awareness around these, like a new approach to obviously skin health, but also this skin, gut, brain axis that you mentioned and all the other axes that we never even really touch on in medicine and medical training. So I call it the neo-romanticism in aesthetic medicine. I wrote an article on this recently, I'll send it your way, just published in Modern Aesthetics.

45:45And I think we're into a new era, the romantic era of aesthetics. We're going away from the enlightenment area of aesthetics. We were all about sterile numbers and science and I'm a huge science fan, but we're focusing too much on the micro scales and measurements. Let's get to individuality, expressions, emotions, passions of aesthetics. Focus on that because we've got all the micro. We know about the collagen. We know about the elastin. We know about the gene markers. We know about how much hyaluronic hydration we need. Let's get to what makes someone feel good and why. We're not all the same.

46:21We have differences. We We have social differences. We have religious differences. And let's put that also into how we show up to be the best version of ourselves. And let's let our aesthetics match where we need to be. I call it the neo-romantic era. That takes a shift in training and education. The stuff people don't like to train, but for those who think more humanistically, it's what makes people most attractive, in my opinion. Yeah, I think it's interesting how our residents and fellows are going to be trained. I really feel like we're at that stage of it's got to evolve. we've got to evolve now and allopathic medicine is wonderful in its own right great discoveries and innovations but we got to get this out into the world where the new doctors and the doctors of tomorrow are like already primed to come into it with this mindset it's a lot more than the anatomy and physiology and it's a lot more than that i'm very interested to see where this evolves very exciting yeah me too it's an exciting time i hope people catch this wave and get to appreciate because it makes a big difference i'll tell you my clinic patients come in i love your skincare don't say I like it I love it and that makes me feel great because I know it created from the ground up it's kind of like if you cook a recipe you're old balancamore for thanksgiving this year and if you cooked everything and they love it doesn't make you feel good that's how I feel when patients tell me they love my skincare I love that no it's a beautiful line I've been using it myself I've loved it it's just sensorially appealing as well the science of solid but sensorially it's amazing so I think we talk about the packaging real quick oh my god I totally forgot It's so awesome.

47:45You did a futuristic look to it. I love it. I want to give kudos to Sabrina. Not only is she a brilliant dermatologist and a great mom, she is also a incredibly creative designer. An artist. An artist. And she works hard on creating our own versions of X and O. She's like, no, if this is going to be ours from the ground up, we are going to do everything to make it something that no one else has ever seen before. So she created the X and O. So we have an X and O. Now it's cute, right? We play off the concept of oxytocin. X and L, male and female jeans. They fit together perfectly. It took many months to get those to be perfect.

48:20They have to fill right. They have to check stability with them. But now we're reaping the benefits of it because we have won our fourth design award right now. So the New York Design Awards, the Muse Design Awards. So people are recognizing it. So if this sits on your shelf, it is really beautiful. And you're going to really like it. And it's something that I think has appealed beyond just the product, what's inside it. just seeing it hopefully makes you it's a whole sensorial experience we hope no i was actually i'm so glad you brought this up because you remember opening the packaging i was like oh my god i love this it looks like it belongs in an architectural magazine it's so beautiful pass off to dr fabi for doing this it's beautiful you guys are going to fall in love with the line but it's like that number one feeling when you first get into your products actually yeah i want to display this i want to use this every night i love it it's beautiful and so well thought out it's been great now we're working on travel size so we're creating those and that's taking a long time but we're making middle mini ones so that's coming soon how was that though the it's such a unique packaging design how long did it take you guys to it was painful and i was against it after the study came back i'm like let's go to market this is great let's share this with everyone no we gotta get the product it's got to do this design it was a whole fiasco but it worked and it's great now we're thrilled and doing it all over again now with minis it's worth it because people love it.

49:37And we're having so much fun. Like we have all these little sweat, we have a satin robe now and we have, we're creating a one night stand, which is our overnight kit that you can take with you. And we have conversation cards. So little cards that like help you create to be more social. We did a speed dating event and people don't know how to be social anymore, especially Gen Z's. And half the women wear XOMD, half that wear XO, half them didn't wear it. And then I tested it in a speed dating event, but I gave them a little conversation card so they could talk to each other and ask each other questions.

50:06Those conversation cards have now turned into a gift that we give people and they want to start having a conversation. You pull up cards that ask really provocative questions. So we're all about the social. Everything about us is let's be social with our skincare. Yes, it's skincare and skin quality is great. Let's go beyond that. One more thing I have to mention, this is important. We don't have oxytocin in there. People ask that all the time. Is there oxytocin? No. You mentioned Jasmine, right? You were saying Jasmine is ours. We found a Jasmine that's able to stimulate levels. We've never actually tested for oxytocin itself so people ask well time is it okay for me to take this with other things it's a cosmetic it's not a medical product it's very important we keep it as a cosmetic product if you have a mood disorder we're not your answer if you have rosacea i got created one of the 10 best products by parade magazine to reduce redness or greater reducing redness and i use it in all my post laser patients who have very sensitive skin you can't get any more sensitive than post laser i use it in all of them but we're not designed for treating any medical conditions yeah that That makes sense.

51:01That's really cool. Working with medicinal botany, I always find that intriguing because there's so much potential that you found something in. Jasmine, and also these plants that have been around forever, I've always wondered that. There's so much untapped potential, and if we weave it into modern medicine and science, it's phenomenal what we'll find. So, exciting. Dr. Dan, thank you so much. This has been an honor and privilege to be able to chat with you, learn from you. I've really enjoyed this conversation. I'd love to have you back anytime. I know our audience would absolutely love that.

51:27Thank you. I really enjoyed talking with you and I appreciate you giving me a long format to discuss this because this is not something I can give you in a five, 10 minute soundbite. You really have to know the story. Yeah. And I appreciate that. That's in the spirit of science, right? We have to dive in. I love that you have so much data. I think that's the one thing I always try to tell our listeners when making decisions about what to put on your skin, what to buy, get critical, get surgical with your deep dives and understand like, where am I really missing something and where's the data? And is this brand being upfront with me about that?

51:58I always try to put that out to our listeners because that's when you're going to notice changes. If you keep buying redundant brands, I'm sorry to say it, but you're going to one, be out of a lot of money and you're not going to see any results. And then you're still going to be like, what do I do now? So I just really encourage everybody dive into the research and the data and the science. And if a brand is being transparent, what with your dollars? I agree. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, guys. So I hope you love that episode. please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform we are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because i love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.

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53:23So check us out. Leave us a comment. Leave us a review. And we'll be back next time with another episode. Thank you.