Discover the Science Behind LED Light Therapy with Déesse Pro

0:00Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Skincare Anarchy. This is your host Ekta and I have two wonderful guests with me today. I'm really excited about this episode because we're really going to be diving into the science of LED light therapy. I know a lot of you out there chime in quite a bit through emails asking us about what's the best option, what are the best tools out in the market, how does LED work, all of these questions come through quite often from all of you. And hopefully we're going to hear some great information today that's going to help clarify some questions you have. So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to our guests who are both working with this wonderful brand, Day S.

0:37And Day S is known for their wonderful LED mask. It's a pro product, so the science behind it is phenomenal. But I can't wait to learn more about LED overall. So without further ado, please welcome Lottie Tyson, who is the head of product and innovation at Day S. And Dr. Patrick Creasy, who is a best-selling author and globally renowned for his work in aesthetic medicine. So welcome to the show, guys. I'm so excited to host you, Dr. Tracy and Lottie. I would love to get started. Maybe, Lottie, you could get us started by telling us a little about Deas and what the founding principles really are with the brand and obviously the wonderful LED mask, which I mentioned in the intro.

1:12Absolutely. So, sure. But at Deas Pro, we actually harness the power of LED light therapy within our beauty tech devices. We also operate in the medical space as well. So, we have one professional-only FDA-cleared class 2 medical device. And essentially, we use a process called photobiomodulation, which is literally harnessing light energy that creates a natural chemical reaction within the skin. So it's really natural. It's really safe, non-invasive. You know, there's very little side effects when using it. But we can treat an absolute plethora of skin concerns, everything from acne to anti-aging, hyperpigmentation, rosacea, eczema, you name it.

1:54There's something, you know, for everyone to help assist you in your skin care or with your skin concerns. So as I said, we obviously have some devices that operate, you know, purely in the medical space, which is obviously our wonderful Dr. Patrick Tracy is here to help us, you know, talk through some of the ways he has used light therapy in his path in clinic. But also we have a range of consumer devices that offer the same in-clinic results, but from the comfort of your own home. So it's very results driven, very rooted in the science. which for me has been something that's been so exciting because I studied biological sciences at uni, always been in sales and marketing after that.

2:32But it's nice to sort of, you know, go back to what I studied then and really get back into the science and understand how this amazing device works in sort of a cellular process. So yeah, I'm excited to be here. Thank you. That's really cool. And Dr. Tracey, could you tell us a little bit? I mean, I really want to get the the listener started on understanding, you know, what is the true benefit of LED? Obviously, I mean, you have some amazing success stories, you know, with your patients. But if you were to give us a beginner's like overview, right from I suppose, we were 13 or 14, when we looked at the original prisms that Newton had sort of split up light into his component wavelengths, or even looking of the cover of Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon LP.

3:18Oh, I'd love that album. Yeah, but that whole ability of white light to break down into red, orange, yellow, indigo, green, violet, you know, which was absolutely wonderful. Now, the thing is that all these wavelengths are safe, which is the first thing, so we can use them to our advantage. The second thing is all the wavelengths, as soon as they hit a parameter, be it a conductive parameter like skin or even water, actually the wavelengths go to different depths. So as a consequence, we have got effects at different levels. So we take blue light, which is obviously a short wavelength, 405 to 470.

4:02Because it's sitting on the surface, it'll damage or affect or modulate things on the surface. In this instance, we mentioned the microbiome earlier, P. acnes. So if we have got blue light at a particular strength, because we've been doing this for a little while with blue light, you can actually work on the protoporphin of the bacteria in order to almost kill it the same as an antibiotic would. A little deeper, and we use sort of the spectrum a little bit to sort of red light, 630, because it penetrates more deeply, it's going to hit into the dermis. And as a consequence, we're going to stimulate collagen production.

4:48We're going to improve circulation because the epidermis is on the outside of the skin, as most people listening will know, is like a protective barrier. So all the whole workhorse of the skin is the level below it. and that's the dermis. So that contains things like, of course, mitochondria, and that contains blood vessels. And whenever I'm injecting anybody, particularly we say I have some sculptor patients in tomorrow, if they bleed in the heart, I don't mind because I tell them I know I'm in the right level. If I'm not doing that, I'm either too high or too low, and you're not going to get the effect.

5:23So if we were to look, we'd say, at the biological effects of just red light, let's say. So if it's going to hit at that level, The first thing it's going to do is reduce inflammation because it modulates the activity of all the inflammatory mediators and the cytokines. And it promotes this anti-inflammatory environment in the tissues. Then the second thing that most people sort of, you know, would be interested in is this whole process of advanced cellular repair. Because when it hits the mitochondria, it increases, you remember from your science, ATP production. and that is really beneficial for increasing energy within the dermis and the cell tissue itself.

6:04And as a result, the body's natural repair process take over. And that's what's going to be obviously beneficial for wound healing and tissue regeneration. And I've been using this particularly after patients who have got CO2 ablative lasers. So I've been using stem cells that come from red deer in Australia, and we get them through Singapore, and they were the original exosomes. We've been using these probably 10 years ago. Now you know that exosomes work at a very high level in the skin, very superficially. So you don't need a nurse or a doctor to do this. If you've got surfaces ablated, one of your estheticians can actually put exosomes there and they'll cross across.

6:47And then, of course, we've got red light beyond with the near infrared light. That's 700 to 1200. and it even goes deeper and it also can work at the level of the pain receptors reducing pain and it'll enhance all the cellular repair process even better maybe than red light itself and this in conjunction also with green light which will reduce pigmentation so it'll work multifaceted you know sort of against not only repair mechanisms but also we can treat acne we can treat psoriasis we can treat wounds we use exactly what patrick's saying so even with our deus pro devices we use different wavelengths of light within our different treatment modes so we've got 415 which as patrick explained is specific to acne treatment because it travels just to the epidermis layer then green light is at 545 nanometers which travels slightly deeper obviously to the basal layer of the epidermis which is where your melanocytes hang out and obviously can form you know hyperpigmentation and green light is actually brilliant for breaking down hyperpigmentation clusters but also it down regulates the tyranose pathway which is obviously the one that's creating that hyperpigmentation that melanin formation and then from there we go to you know red and near infrared as patrick was explaining which is brilliant for wound healing which is where he's been using that you know specifically in clinic with burn treatments and also obviously in these chemical peels um co2 lasers that kind of thing but also for us you know maybe at home it's more about essentially like keeping the skin at its optimal skin health so you're stimulating that collagen hyaluronic acid and elastin production and really making sure you know your skin is staying as youthful as it could possibly with all the energy that it needs yeah that's actually really fascinating to me that um you know dr tricia you brought up the idea of this ATP concept because I've been hearing a lot about it you know I feel like people are really buzzing right now about this whole longevity science thing and there's a lot of talk about giving your cells more providing them with things like NAD and you know helping with the energy metabolism and all that but this the light therapy component makes more sense to me because it's actually going and and turning on certain receptors and you know targeting photoreceptors And so what is your advice for, you know, in terms of using something like this at home?

9:12Should people be using LED therapy masks or any devices like this every day? Or is it safe to do that? I mean, for us to use it on the daily or should we do it in a controlled setting? You know, dermatologist only kind of thing. I certainly would advocate to use red light themselves at home. We've known for a long time that this can reduce wrinkles. And we know for quite a long time as well that this can produce in a non-complicated way, hair growth. And you see, I suppose, particularly from China now, a lot of LED hats that you can wear watching television. If they're of a strong enough source, then they certainly work.

9:47And then, you know, LED also can actively have some effect on not only signal pathways, but also it can switch on some genomes, you know. Then we know as well that sort of some cancer cell apoptosis that was induced by DNA damage, that some of the P53 signaling pathways, you know, sort of can be helped by this. And we know also, of course, when we're talking about green light, it's a fact recently in migraine treatment. It might not work with our device because our device is holds for the eyes. But if you are in a room with green light, it'll calm down your brain. that's what I could say, during migraine treatment.

10:30And we do a lot of migraine treatment with Botox in the clinic. Wow, I've heard about Botox use for migraine treatment. That's interesting that it works on that. I mean, for me, green light is very new. I won't lie to you, like I haven't heard much about green light. And I am very curious, you know, what is really the science behind it? Because you had mentioned tyrosinase pathway, I believe. Yeah. So I mean, how does this work in comparison to something like a tyrosinase inhibitor, which I see a lot of those, you know, in like topical treatments that consumers really kind of gravitate towards if they have hyperpigmentation.

11:03How is this different than that? Well, we know the way the pigmentation works in terms of the absorption of the green light by the sort of chromophores pigments up. We're on the edge of trying to figure out why it works in migraine. And if you look, most of the papers say that it has a calming effect on the brain. What exactly that means and why, I'm not sure. We've been treating, I suppose, Botox or Migraine. I have now since 1997 started doing this in Australia. And the protocols that we introduced back then, which is now nearly 30 years ago, are still used worldwide. It was passed in the United States, Britain and Ireland about 2010.

11:42But we really had a 14-year head start on that in terms of treating chronic migraine. But that's another disease. Yeah. And I think just, you know, from my point of view with green light therapy, certainly for DSPRO, we believed in the power of green light therapy before necessarily like the clinical data obviously caught up. And I think, you know, given that in terms of in the consumer space, obviously acne and anti-aging seem to be the most searched or, you know, topical concerns for the general masses. I think it was just so that obviously science was also in those two areas. So Greenlight Now, as Patrick is saying, has been shown clinically to inhibit that pathway and obviously really sort of be beneficial for the treatment of long term hyperpigmentation.

12:29But it also gives you this amazing clarity to the skin. This is why I love it. You know, I wouldn't necessarily say I suffer with frequent hyperpigmentation. But for me, it really obviously stimulates angiogenesis. it's brilliant for calming the skin as well so if you do have rosacea or any redness in the skin it's brilliant for taking that down but it gives you this amazing like glass like finish to the skin so it's an incredible one to couple actually with red light therapy if there's any doctors listen I suppose and we want to break down led and what it does I tend to break it down to three different things number one the biological effects which are easy to prove the second is the dermatological uses that we use it for.

13:10And the third thing is what I would call combining therapies with it. Once first, we looked at the specificity of the wavelengths, which is wonderful. And then in terms of what did they do on cells, we had the anti-inflammatory with increased cellular repair and with increased ATP production through the mitochondria themselves. Then the second thing I would look at probably is how do we use it as doctors and rather than sort of people using it in clinics or at home use. And I mean by clinics, I mean like beauty clinics. So we can certainly use it in terms of acne treatment, as we said. And this is one of the wonderful things about the Dessay product.

13:49You can use a computer to isolate the different wavelengths or use them in combination, which is even better because you can play with it. And then the next one is psoriasis, of course. And I mean, this will reduce the severity of psoriasis symptoms. Also, I've seen reduced plaque formation. And sometimes I use that if I'm switching a patient from steroids to methotrexate. Be careful also of the potential for phototoxicity in some patients. And as we said, wound healing, collagen production, increased blood circulation, tissue repair. But the third thing that I sort of have, I suppose, won awards for, and that is in Miami, in Monaco, and in Paris.

14:31for a couple of techniques that came up with one called the plus technique and the other the helper technique and this is where we use red light in combination with stem cells of pplp now i firmly believe and the chinese tend to agree with me and i'm looking more east these days than west in terms of validation for scientific papers i think what happens is we have a thing in the body where the epidermis can go through migration transference, but actually it becomes then a rogue cell and often can cause tumors. Now, if we're in a situation where we have got no healing mechanism, in other words, if you get a burn, then suddenly there's no blood.

15:17And if there's no blood, there's no macrophages, growth factors, there's no signal, messages, that's all missing. Or if you get a bascular occlusion, where I've done a lot of work, in terms of people injecting, I suppose, dermal fillers into an artery, not meaning to, accidentally and causing vascular process. Those patients are the same as burn patients from the point of view that there is no blood, and if there's no blood, there's no repair mechanism. So God takes over, and so do we get dermal scouring in order to protect the dermis that's there. Now, I've effectively reversed a lot of these, probably up now to maybe as many as certainly over 50 cases, and I'm one of the worst for that, where if you get them early enough and if you can't bring Muhammad to the mountain, you bring the mountain to Muhammad.

16:02So what we do is we take a situation where we try to restore epidermal tissue. And we've done that very successfully. And I have some videos, I'm sure, up on YouTube where you can see this. So if you take the red light in the presence of, we think it's dermopepilic keratinocytes, that they will reverse the cells back to form epidermal tissue. And that's what we consider is going on. Sean and another Chinese doctor, and so my work has almost as much as proven this. I had it out as a hypothesis originally. It's nice to see now that people are taking some of my work and trying to prove it scientifically, because it's very hard to, if you're a scientist like you are as well, and Lottie, to treat patients in the absence of having proper lab work to verify your work so you know you've got a positive outcome so i've had one or two cases very severe where a patient had total abdominal burn that would have had all thickness skin graft to their abdomen and we reversed them within 10 days and then i had another young girl with a pecking disorder that was on oracutin the soda had come into me and she'd pulled quite a sizable chunk out of her face intraorbitally and i didn't want to sew her up because she was an oracutin and she'd been left with a big scar.

17:20So I took her over a period of maybe two weeks and used red light, and I used stem cells and PRP, and we got her back totally. And would you believe it? She had a psychiatric condition, so she did the other side then, but we had to fix that then also. A bit disheartening. That's phenomenal that you were able to achieve that with therapy. I mean, for me, wound healing is such an interesting area because I feel like you fix one problem and 10 other problems come up. you know, whether it's the scarring, whether it's like keloid formation. When I'm hearing you tell us this, Dr. Tricia, I'm just, my mind is like, you know, all over the place right now.

17:57I mean, at the end of the day, I mean, I understand. So with red light, if we're using it, and I hear this a lot, you know, and I don't know how much truth there is to this, but people talk a lot about things like microtraumas, you know, for reference for the average consumer, you know, that might not have like a burn injury, but you might have something that is referred to as a microtrauma. What does that mean to us when we're using red light therapy? I mean, how much need really? I mean, that's the question. Yeah, I would say that is almost like Pharaoh's building the pyramids. And so we've got a situation, I suppose, where we have got lots of workers and they may be slaves, but they're the fibroblasts.

18:38So if we sometimes actually cause microtrauma such as microneedling or even laser so we're making more fibroblasts but then the fibroblasts have to be told what to do so i mean somebody has to go and tell them you're sort of building the east side of the pyramid you're working on the bottom this guy's working on the top so that's the signal messengers and then we have um the incentives that sort of make them work better by giving them proper food that sort of thing and that's the growth hormones so we've got three things going on there we got the fibroblasts the growth hormones and signal messengers and we got a functional outcome be it building the new york metro or be building the pyramids as a consequence but then red light adds something more to that and this is the magic of it that sort of if some of the processes are can be almost like amplified to do these things faster so it's almost like turning on a light rather than the people building the metro or the pyramids in the middle of the night then you're actually turning on a light and it's almost like day for 24 hours so i mean that's almost in my simplistic mind the way that i see these things working you know so my own like personal experience with light therapy i actually have suffered with perioral dermatitis for probably the best part of the last seven to ten years and you know i never really know what flares it up seems to just be you know if I'm a bit run down or stressed and obviously the older I've gotten the more of my friends you know I'm 34 now and so many of my friends have the same well it is directly related to stress we know that yeah the curfew would light a little bit because it works in the family of rosacea almost rather than acne and light as you know can go both ways but rosacea usually detrimental unfortunately in some people yeah so have you found it beneficial for i have yeah i have so i actually never i never really use blue light therapy because it's in my skin i don't tend to suffer from you know um acne or you know any blemishes really but when i do suffer with this i actually use blue light and red and in our new yeah in our new medical device our new acne setting actually has the combination of obviously blue and red together in one mode and that seems to really help calm it down because obviously it's notoriously itchy it kind of looks like spots that are coming under you know under the surface of the skin but actually never come to anything apart from dryness and irritation and you know I've tried over the course of all this time I've tried lots of skincare products then I've tried taking everything back.

21:25I've tried supplements. Yeah, I find nothing works except for three months of doxycycline. The funny thing is, even though it begins to clear up after two or three weeks, you still need to get the person to stay on it for six to 12 weeks, or it'll come back again. It's an interesting problem because men don't get it. It's very much a female thing. and it happens between the ages we say 25 and about 40 and it's very often a lot of gps miss it as late onset acne when it's really very old dermatitis yeah so it's interesting to me this conversation it really actually sparks a very kind of a different topic for me as well because um you know when it comes to things like acne i mean we had spoken about the benefits of blue light with p acnes right and and i understand that there is a lot of value there but then And I get confused because I know a lot of teenagers have their acne struggles, right?

22:21When we were teenagers, we had our, you know, most of us had severe breakouts or, you know, we had our most of our acne then. But then when you get into the adult years and then the people that are still suffering from the acne, you know, in the adult years, what is I mean, is there a bigger benefit for teenagers or younger skin types versus older skin types when it comes to blue light therapy? Has there been any data that shows this? All acne is related to testosterone. In both male and females, it's directly a result of testosterone. Now, 10 % of females, as you know, have PCOS or polycystic ovarian syndrome.

22:58And in our acne clinics, that actually goes up to about 28%. So we normally would measure testosterone, sex-binding hormone. So males and females. Males then can aggravate it by obviously taking whey protein. A lot of young people now go into the gyms. and girls can aggravate it by doing things like drinking skinny latte or you know fat-free milk because all that's doing is spinning off the fat containing the estrogen and they're drinking almost pure testosterone so if we clear that out of the way in male or female in old or in young people it's all testosterone now that's not obviously pod which is estrogen related so i'm I'm just talking about pure acne.

23:44Now, in terms of blue light, what is it doing? Well, if we look at the other things first, what does an antibiotic do? An antibiotic kills bacteria that cause it. Okay. What does roaccutane do? Roaccutane makes the testosterone have less effect on the polysebaceous unit. So rather than hypertrophying it, it comes back to normal, which is the reason that 94 % of people after they take acutane never need another course or anything again their acne is gone for life. Antibiotics we've got roacutane and then we've got blue light. Now blue light all it's doing that I'm aware of in proto-phosphorates is just killing the bacteria so even though it is benefit certainly in terms of acne just be able to use a light there's no doubt about that it's probably not dealing with the underlying situation but you would need in terms of either Rakuten or maybe also I use spironolactone a lot if there's predicated testosterone but even if it's edgy and it's up there but it's not crossing into the I find testosterone very difficult to deal with because all the hospitals that I've worked with seem to have different reference ranges different cities I mean the reference range in Dublin is up to 1.7 but it's 2.4 in fork you know so they take a thousand people as a sample and they sort of take what's the average in it and i find that probably blue light works with acne in young people or in older people as that is said earlier be careful that you differentiate between perior dermatitis which can look like acne but i mean perior dermatitis you know it it sort of comes on first as a bit nervy and it's sort of irritating the skin and you wake up in the morning what is it whereas with acne you wake up in the morning what is it and you didn't even know what was going to happen some will obviously make acne better because the uv will kill the bacteria but it probably would make pod worse they're all neurodermatosis in other words psoriasis acne and pod are all going to get worse if you get stressed so sometimes when a bride comes to me she might be better off getting a bit of Xanax than actually the antibiotics.

26:02I have done that in the past and it works fine. It drops anxiety a little bit. Yeah. Maybe I need some of that. No, that's really fascinating though. Actually, you know, it's funny you bring up Xanax. I was part of a paper once that they looked at the effect of benzodiazepines on wound healing. So I might have to send you that one because it was really fascinating to see. Oh, wonderful. Yeah. So, but I mean, it's really cool though, that like does work in that way. I mean, I think there, there is a lot of misinformation, you know, out here. So that's why I asked that question because a lot of times perioral dermatitis, as you were talking about Lottie, you're, I mean, that's very true.

26:42What Dr. Tracy said gets confused as acne and people think they treat it like acne, you know, they'll put like the patches or the over the counter treatments, like acne gear treatments. And then they'll say, okay, well, it's not going away. you know it's not going anywhere getting worse yeah i think for me as well because i've been quite consistent obviously with using the devices since you know i started this role like 18 months ago i think obviously if your cell barrier function is good you know you're maintaining that optimum cell health like through consistent red light therapy and diet you know everything else that comes into that i assume you know you would be less susceptible to obviously suffering from an outbreak or maybe a visible outbreak so it's hard to you know essentially know isn't it exactly what it is that's helping or but it definitely seems for me that it has helped me I've certainly had fewer outbreaks and honestly in this role you know it's quite a big role and quite stressful at times um so yeah if it can be of some assistance then I think it's worth while a try and then of course we shouldn't forget the other variant of pod and which is periorofacial dermatitis um which is also mistaken and so that's where you just don't get the sort of spots around your mouth with sort of sparing uh it doesn't run to the vermilion border there's like a centimeter two centimeter sparing periorally but it also goes onto the eyelids and it's treated the same way as pod and yeah we get a lot of patients like that unfortunately that have been as you said um mistreated by themselves or other doctors by using over-the-counter medication that's just the wrong yeah well it can just inflame it so much more kind of it can really irritate it yeah and it's always you know for me disheartening to see how little information is really out there about it you know even perioral dermatitis i think recently there was a big you know stir up on social media or the media outlets where people were now talking about it you know But before this, the common consumer wasn't hearing about these kind of things.

28:46They don't hear about it. And then when things happen on a mass level, everyone's like, oh, my God, this is brand new. It's not brand new. Yeah, it's true. And for someone like me, I've had clear skin. I've been lucky to have clear skin my whole life. I've obviously looked after it. I use good skincare. I'm quite religious with it. And I exercise and I eat healthily. But when it comes out of nowhere and you really don't know how to treat it and you're getting different advice, from every source that you read, it does become, yeah, it can become quite stressful. Seeing that after Barbie came out and people using Botox and trapezius, trapezius tox, as if it was something new.

29:27And I mean, we've been treating trapezius, I don't mean in terms of headaches or I don't mean in terms of migraine, but all our Chinese patients come to us to get the back of their legs, gastrocnema, calf muscles and the trapezius done. we've been doing that for like 25 years easily and like after that movie it was if it was something new it was all over social media with everybody coming in i was gonna say i learned that in my medical school training where they talked about that you know like the use of like certain muscle relaxing agents i mean i think people just don't they just don't understand like the problem is scientific literacy really if we think about it you know a lot of times consumers don't they don't understand that there have been treatments that have been around it's just a matter of either you're going to a doctor and I'll say it plainly I mean all of our listeners know you're going to a doctor who's not really on board with telling you you know like all the options or they just don't know you know they just don't know themselves it's that whole young generation that are willing to go on to tick tock for their sort of facts rather than sort of you know go to scientific data it's incredible and you know they believe that green tea is better than purple tea there's different than blue tea and you know um and there's no difference the same carotene in every one of them you know i know what you mean and it's very interesting and on that note i really want to actually ask this question because i think this is definitely up and coming now i've seen a few people take a stab at this whole laser you know over-the-counter lasers right and it kind of worries me a little bit i won't lie i mean i think that and maybe this is a bit more of an engineering question and Lottie maybe you can give us an overview answer is that what is the difference between an LED device such as what you know you guys have and a laser technology I mean is there a difference are we being lied to with lasers I mean I don't even know I think there's certainly some misinformation out there about you know at home lasers obviously they use a coherent beam of light energy whereas we have leds which disperse the light you know over sort of a broader space essentially and with that it's low level energy so you're not causing any damage to the skin you know obviously traditionally lasers are either used to remove things yeah do you want to add a bit to that patrick the irony is this that led is true laser light and what they're calling laser light isn't because that's a category three IPL which isn't really a laser at all now when I talk about laser I'm talking about parallel beams I'm talking about coherent light I'm talking about one wavelength but I mean most of the home IPL devices are all broad blend lights they're multi wavelengths they're not through lasers and I mean the thing is that LED is a it's LLL it's a low level laser is producing wavelengths of 635 or 420 and the home lasers have been around for quite a little while now how effective they are i don't know i wouldn't like to pass comment because i mean in theory they should at least have some effect i know myself from i once ran hair transplant clinics with 20 around the world and home hats for growing hair some of them work some of them didn't and I'm saying the same from things from face masks going from China that some of them work and some of them don't I think at the end of the day you pay for what you get you could get an LED sort of hat to wear in front of a TV for anything between$50 and$600 and I always advocated the ones for$600 and I never really had anybody complaining but I know that some of the face masks it's very hard to know whether they've been effective or not problems with led is almost like that because you don't almost see everything on a sort of daily basis you have to do it over a period of time so it's easier for the patient to have something at home themselves i used to give them out masks but i mean the one wonderful thing about the deset product is the fact that sort of you know you are paying for it to get from the point of view that it's got the joules per centimetre, square centimetre, and that's the only way you can measure it, really.

33:38You know, what the power of the device is. And they don't tend to test that on Amazon, you know. Yeah, and just to add to that, I think, you know, the specificity of the wavelength. So, for example, we've been talking a lot about, you know, blue light and acne. Well, actually, with the photoporphyrin, when you look at its peak absorption rate on a graph that looks at, you know everything from 405 to say 425 nanometers you'll actually see the peak absorption of that at 415 which means that it's death of the cell you know whereas everything other other side of that you know 405 or 425 it really drops off so you've got to be quite specific in the wavelengths that you are using and also the delivery mechanism of the light energy to the skin and that's one thing that you know with our light therapy devices we were the original iconic hard shell format contoured you know they literally look like your face in a mask and the reason for that is because the bulbs actually touch the skin in the majority of places so it's a standard form so everyone will be slightly different but the idea and the principle is that you know you're losing a minimal amount of light energy to space and time because obviously the device is touching your skin and if you look at the inverse square law of light which imagine shining a torch from a distance you will have that low level light dispersal so quite weak energy but if you are shining it directly on a surface it will be much more concentrated and therefore you know you're losing much less energy you're getting optimal energy to the skin and evoking a better result we also use medical grade leds so much more high powered as patrick was saying which obviously allows for better energy transmission to the skin so there are a whole host of different you know things to consider and it is a minefield out there i've had a lot of friends even knowing now the role that i'm in and what i do and who i work with that have said oh you know there's no way light therapy can do all of those amazing things and I think people think that it's a gimmick honestly I think until you actually you know tell them how scientifically it works show them the before and after studies show them the 30 years of clinical data I mean I've been absolutely blown away by how much I've learned and you know how many different ways as Patrick said like this is being utilized you know both in clinic but at home but also for hair growth and you know even some far out studies are looking at how it can help with potential potential help for depression and anxiety PTSD those kinds of things as well so it's certainly going to have its place in the future of not only skincare but I think well-being care and wellness care that's so fascinating and yeah I mean it sounds like the possibilities of life they're virtually endless you know it's very that's really cool though because I think a lot of times consumers and I know a lot of people have fallen into this trap I've definitely seen it myself where you find a light you know based product LED product online and you just want to buy it because you know that your friends have one your you know family member has one but you need to you guys like for everyone listening you really do have to do your homework on this one.

36:56If you're doing your homework the two things that I would look at is number one what we call the radiance that's the power output and that should be if my memory certainly right from 20 to 40 milliwatts per square centimeter i know that's dependent on settings and different wavelengths and that so you want to be running between 20 and 40 milliwatts per centimeter and a lot of the cheaper chinese ones don't tell you that but some of them do and the second thing is the number of individual led lights device that we're discussing at the moment has i think a 770 isn't it if i remember right that's right yeah that's right so in our pro by deus pro which is our consumer device that is 770 leds yeah wow that's really well that's good to know i'm glad that we know thank you dr trucey because yeah that's exactly what i wanted our listeners to kind of take a note of is that this is what you have to look for because there's a lot out there you know and it's really kind of disheartening to see i've seen some actually you You know, I mean, we're talking about TikTok.

38:02I'll tell you, I've seen some videos on TikTok where people have posted, yeah, I bought this on, you know, whatever website. It's some device and they actually get burned because they're using something. And I'm like, where did you get this? Like, where did you even find it? It's a slippery slope right now, you know, for the consumers because they want these options. They want at home options. But it's really about finding what has been tested and what has actual data to back it up. And I always try to advocate for that, you know, on our podcast. Yeah, your skin is your biggest organ. It's so important to take good care of your skin.

38:36And I would really urge, like you say, people to do their research, you know, not just jump in on trends or trending devices that, you know, claim some of them. I've seen them on TikTok. They do seem to have amazing before and afters. but obviously the long-term implications of those devices. And indeed, you know, some of these new laser devices or claiming to be laser devices, well, it's all very well and good. You know, they might have these amazing results, but ultimately LED has been studied for over 30 years. Like we know that it is clinically safe to use. Like it's been tested with so many different medications, other skincare ingredients, topical or, you know, whatever, to know that it's actually safe.

39:19and you know that you can rely on it and also not cause any long-term damage to the skin because I think that's also something that certainly with retinols and there's all of these children children you know trying like high strength retinol and I worry that you know potentially these devices as well like too young you don't want to start anything like this too young it should be something I think you you know start to lean into in your mid-20s really yeah that makes actually I'm glad you mentioned that because these days teenagers are loving all the products you know any skin health products yeah teenagers are flocking to it so if a clinic was getting it and the sort of thing we should consider it's got multiple modes for different skin concerns it's got customizable options for combining different wavelengths which i haven't seen before and i think that's a wonderful effect where you can actually mix and match your wavelengths to do different things and I suppose the fact that sort of it has got multiple functions multiple modes it goes with multiple wavelengths to different depths customizable options treats numerous different conditions and then you can boost its effect by adding with say stem cells or pop or whatever and anybody can contact me at any stage regarding that because I used to lecture quite a lot on this you know and even if you put in my name on youtube and put in led you'll probably come across a lot of different things but it'd be interesting for doctors to see the original pictures i don't add them all up because they're obviously patients gdpr photographs and that i would use them with lectures you know that's that's great that that's out there though dr tracy i'm glad you're you put that up because i think facts help a lot you know if you can just see it yourself you'll be able to really understand the benefits and you know i mean there are a lot of benefits there you know and i think it's just a matter like i said earlier i mean i really believe in scientific literacy i think that people need to become more educated when it comes to anything related to skin health if you're going to use a product you have to understand the skin you have to understand why you're using it you know it can't just be my friend has it so i'm gonna buy it you know like sure sure sure i saw it on tiktok yeah yeah exactly yeah i mean it's brilliant you know it's brilliant for educating but also it can be can be dangerous as well if it's not you know from a credible source i think right absolutely well i want to thank both of you so much for your time this has been so much yeah i really i'd love to do a part two if dr c but if you guys have time I'd love to bring you back and we could do another segment.

42:01Or at any time, if you do any other skin things, certainly give me a shout because I do a lot of podcasts and I suppose a lecture all around the world. And yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much. And for everyone tuning in, I hope you guys learned as much as I did. And if you have any questions at all, please do not hesitate to email us. Let us know. We can definitely pass along your questions, try to get you some answers. But again, please do your homework whenever you're shopping for anything related to your health. You know, it's just important to do that, I think, at this point. So thank you for tuning in and I'll be back next time.

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