From Journalism to Redefining Beauty Culture with Michelle Lee

0:02Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is such a special episode for me because our guest today I'm a big fan of hers and she has been such a monumental voice in the beauty industry.

0:30and so excited always to talk about beauty. Yeah, no, I can't wait to chat with you because, I mean, I look at your career and you've just already, you've accomplished so much and you've shifted the way this industry works and, you know, things really, like on a fundamental level. I mean, your work at Allure is just monumental, how, you know, all the wonderful things you accomplished there. And I'd love to get started in that way. If you could kind of walk us down memory lane and tell us about what got you into beauty in the first place. Like what made you want to come into it? Yeah, you know, it's interesting.

0:58I've been talking a lot with people about this and just, you know, in general, my career. And when I look back, I actually consider myself to be very much a generalist. When I was in college, I was like that kid who I had no idea what I wanted to do. At some point, I had to choose a major. And, you know, I had always really loved storytelling, writing. And so I chose journalism, very specifically magazine journalism. And so once I picked that route, I actually really wanted to go into fashion initially. So I moved up to New York City. My first job was at Glamour Magazine. And I had a great internship where I got to spend two weeks in every department.

1:35So my first department was in the fashion closet. After I think maybe it was like day two, I was like, this is not the path for me. And so at some point, my next two weeks was spent in the articles department. I loved it because it kind of got me back to writing, editing, et cetera. And so really my path was less about the subject matter and more about I loved storytelling. And so when I say to people, I've done a bit of everything, like it sounds a little crazy. I have written about pretty much every subject. I was a tech reporter. I've written about finance, kids and parenting, health and fitness.

2:11I was a cars writer for a while. I've written about extreme sports. I've done like lots of fun trips related to like snowboarding and other things. and really I've always been kind of parallel to the world of beauty. I would say looking back at my career, the one thing that tied everything together was really culture. I wrote about music, entertainment, culture in general. Right before I was hired at Allure, I was the editor-in-chief and chief marketing officer at Nylon, which Nylon at the time was still a very, very cool print magazine, had really started to grow its digital and social presence.

2:47We did about 70 live events a year as well and very much rooted in, again, fashion, beauty, culture, entertainment, music, all those things. So when I got hired at Allure, I don't think that I was like, you know, I feel like I kind of came out of nowhere because I was definitely not considered to be a beauty person. And looking back on my time there, I actually think that that was a real asset. The fact that I wasn't someone who was completely rooted in the beauty industry for my entire career. I was able to then look at beauty in a different way. And I looked at it very much through the lens of culture.

3:21And so when I was interviewing for the role, I think I probably, I mean, it was a long process that took probably about six months. I'd met, had like 10 different rounds of interviews and I had to do a presentation basically. So I came up with this little deck of, you know, these are the things I would do with the brand. And one of those things was, I really see a strong focus on diversity and inclusion. And this was, I'm trying to think of what year this was. This was when I started talking to them, I think it was like 2014. And I ended up starting in 2015. It's hard to remember now because we see a lot more diversity and inclusion in every area, in particular in beauty.

4:03But back then, if you transport yourself back to those days, it was not a big thing in media, wasn't a big thing in women's media, beauty, fashion, none of it. And so I think that came a lot from my own personal experience as well. So being an Asian American woman, I grew up in a time where I consider myself a child of the 80s and 90s, and I never felt like I fit in in the beauty world. So I would read magazines, books, you know, watch TV, movies, everything. And there were very few people who looked like me. And especially when I was reading things about like, let's say makeup, it was always, you know, put this color in your crease.

4:43And I was like, I don't have a crease. And so you just started to feel like, okay, I don't really belong in this space. And so because I always was that person who felt like I didn't belong, it was really important to me, not just for Asian Americans, but also for everyone to make sure that we were building a space that everyone felt included. And so I would say like looking back at Allure, my first year, I was very safe. I think I was like, oh my God, this is a huge job. I don't want to like upset the apple cart. And looking back at my covers, like other things, I was like, I could tell I was not risk-taking.

5:15By the second year, I think I started to feel more confident and, you know, had my team set. And I would say like my team was incredible and honestly pushed me even more. And that's truly the best thing when you have other people around you who are like, let's push, push, push. And so we did great things that I feel like I still talk to people about. Most notably, I think people most know me for during my time at Allure, we banned the term anti-aging. I see people reaching out to me being like, oh my God, thank you so much for doing that. And we still see the long-term effects of that, of where now I do feel like we see more women over 40, over 50 in beauty campaigns, on runways, and in other things.

5:56And we really pushed diversity across many different facets, not just on covers, but truly across all of our content. And we really, really meant it, not just in terms of like representation, but we also, I think, made really great strides when it came to how we hired people, not just full time staff, but also crews. So we would have very diverse, you know, photography, crews, videography. And I really strongly believe that you get a better result when you have diverse voices in the room. Yeah, no, absolutely. It's so monumental to me what you did with that, you know, really banning the whole anti-aging thing and being part of that.

6:32because I remember you know when I started this podcast understanding beauty as a consumer it was like I hated seeing anti-aging everywhere you know what I mean it was like we shouldn't be talking like that and so that's so huge to me that you were able to be at the front lines with this because I think even now when you look at the beauty industry I mean it's a lot better right but it's still we're dealing with these terminologies and especially even the diversity side of it we're still having these battles you know and they're not as large maybe as I'm sure when you first stepped in, but like it was, it's still going on, but I mean, you've made such great stride for the whole industry there.

7:07So I think the thing is that we always wanted to do was we wanted to explore and kind of poke at beauty standards. And so even with the anti-aging thing, I would say 95 % of people were super positive about it. Like we really wanted to spark conversation. And in that sense, I think we, we massively succeeded. This was a global phenomenon where it just got people talking about how we talk about aging and how we talk about women and aging specifically. Some of the criticism that we got though was like, well, but you guys are still talking about skincare products and Botox and like, you know, facelifts, et cetera.

7:43And so the point of what we were doing though, was not to say like, don't do those things. It was that don't feel like you need to be pressured by society to do anything if you don't want to. If you do want to get Botox, if you do want to use all the beauty products, absolutely do that. But as a society, we need to stop making people feel like they're like quote unquote old or ugly or other things but if you want to do those things there's also no shame in that and so i think there was like a you know amidst some people there was a bit of a misunderstanding of what that all meant we weren't saying like stop doing everything like obviously we are part of the beauty industry and we love it so much but we also need to just stop and think a little bit about how people are feeling about things too so again i think it was very successful but definitely noted some of the criticism and also made us think a little bit too of like how are we as an organization helping to feed into some of those things yeah absolutely I mean it's huge to just start that conversation right I mean I feel like half the battle is like taking that first step and that's where it's just it's such a great thing that happened and you know I'm very curious because I love how you explained that you didn't feel like you really fit into the beauty industry I think a lot of us can relate to that you know I definitely can you know growing up I never felt like I fit in either and for my own reasons, but like when you look at beauty, right, like as a landscape, like how do you, how do you perceive beauty now?

9:01Like having had these roles and, and work behind the scenes so much, like what does beauty really mean for you when you hear that word? Yeah, I, first of all, I'm such a cheerleader of the entire beauty industry. I love it so much. I do think that, you know, compared to other industries, I do find it to be incredibly friendly, inclusive. I feel like even just as a business and as an industry, the people who I've met in beauty are so wonderful and like I just I love the vibe of the beauty industry I would say what's changed probably in the past 10 years though is that it is hyper competitive like there's just so much more so at the time that I started at Allure for example this was kind of pre like huge beauty industry boom with all like the indie brands etc like I remember starting and some of the brands that we know now is like being you know hugely successful the globe recipes summer Fridays like those types, Tatcha, those brands, they were just kind of getting started.

9:58And so in the past 10 years, we've really seen this massive, massive explosion of the beauty industry just as a business. And so in that sense, I feel like it's gotten crowded and it's gotten a little bit more confusing, I think, right? Like because of social media, the internet, everything, I do think that consumers for the most part are more educated about things like ingredients, but it also then causes a lot of confusion. So for example, in skincare, I've been talking a lot with people about, you know, there's this pressure for new skincare products and brands to always be innovative, but it's impossible, right?

10:34So if you think about like the pressure of just how many skincare products are introduced every year, it's kind of impossible for everything to be, you know, asterisk, asterisk, like innovative, like this brand new thing, blah, blah, blah. And I think that by having that pressure, it has caused a little bit more, I guess, doubt and skepticism among consumers, right? Where if on social media, every single thing that you see is innovative, it just means that nothing is really innovative anymore. So I'm actually hoping for, I think we're in this period right now of a little bit of a reset, where some of the skincare brands that we've seen be super successful in the past, people are a little bit more skeptical about now and I'm actually hoping that there are some new brands that kind of come out and like really take some time to tell their story and talk a little bit more about why they're special and everything it's impossible for everything to be like mind-blowingly innovative yeah like new patents and like new technology everywhere yeah and I hear you and that's so real because a lot of times most people all they really need is really great hydrating products like let's be honest you know like it's half the time the skin problems that we deal with that's really what we need from our skincare so well I was explaining to you that I just got back from a week in Korea yeah I spent a little time in Japan also and so I have fully immersed myself in k-beauty and like Korean skincare the past couple of years like and understanding more about it and you are so right about the hydration thing that there's this brand and Mixoon that I'm like obsessed with now that they have this whole line of just like single ingredient essences.

12:12And like, it's really just a pure centella. It's a pure galactomyces, but like by layering all these things, it really does change your skin a lot. And so I'm so obsessed with Korean products, Japanese products. Like, I just feel like there's a different, it's not only innovation, but like there's a different philosophy about products and ingredients there that's, you know, it's about purity, but it's also about efficacy. And it's also about hydration. Like I didn't realize until I got older, I just thought you slap on like a heavy moisturizer and you're fine. But like truly my skin was just dehydrated.

12:45And so it's, you know, yes, you should drink water, but there needs to be hydration from the outside too. Yeah, absolutely. And that's so, that's so fascinating that they're doing the single ingredient thing. I think that's brilliant actually, because we have seen that right in the u.s like hyaluronic acid was that i remember like when i first saw the first hyaluronic serum was like i forget the brand it was a japanese brand and was it ahc uh i think hadolabo oh yep yeah hadolabo hadolabo was the first one i saw and i remember thinking i'm like oh that's amazing and then hyaluronic acid just blew up you know what i mean in in the u.s and it's like now everyone's got one but i feel like that's it's one of the examples of where i think we did something right from a skincare standpoint you know it's like you have something that just brings moisture to your skin and it's simple and it's easy to understand and yeah I just I I'm hoping that this k-beauty movement kind of leads to more of that for us the other thing I appreciate too beyond the hydration is that a lot of us don't realize that we need soothing products too because yes if you have rosacea or other other issues with your skin where it like shows if you are like inflamed or other things but honestly most of us do need something that's quite soothing so I do find also that Asian products whether it's Korean or Japanese have more of an emphasis on that soothing too which again just even from my own personal experience has really helped my skin.

14:07Yeah and also like now everyone's buzzing about like inflammation have you seen that like everyone's like inflammasome and like all this yeah and I think that's really what it comes down to is like we need things we can rely on and so i'm curious what is your like when you look at k-beauty right and how it's entering of the u.s market like what's your opinion about that like the way it's being represented in the states i know there's so many brands over there so like the ones that are coming over do you think they're like really representing what k-beauty can do so i've given this so much thought and so one of the companies that i work with is is truly one of the trailblazers in Korean beauty.

14:43So Landing International, they were like the big movement behind lots of the first wave of K-beauty brands like Cosrx and others. And so it's interesting to think about that first wave, right? When the Cosrx and others kind of came here, there were actually a lot of brands back then that did not last. So basically a lot of them got into retail, but they didn't necessarily think about it. It costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of resources and time and effort to be successful here. You can't just get on the shelves of Sephora, Ulta, and expect that people are going to know what your brand is about and just pick it up.

15:19So in that first wave, unfortunately, I feel like a lot of brands were kind of misrepresented. Cozarks, I think, did a great job. So they really represented themselves well in terms of, again, innovation, ingredients. People really became quite taken with things like snail mucin, etc. And they had a strong POV. Where the brands went wrong that didn't last, again, they didn't do a great job of telling their story. So what people ended up glomming onto was kind of like this cutesy thing, right? Where it was like, oh, K-beauty is this weird thing where like either the ingredients are strange or it's like gimmicky, that it's all like cutesy bunnies and stuff like that.

15:58And that was really the wrong message when actually what K-beauty really represents is again, this focus on hydration, on different ingredients. And so I think in the second wave of K-beauty, brands are doing a phenomenal job of explaining how they're different. And what's changed, I think, largely has been TikTok has been the big thing and Amazon. So this whole movement between brands from different countries, like you don't have to be a Western brand, you totally can be a Korean brand and you're taking off on TikTok. People show a lot of interest. And because it is fresh and new, they're either buying it directly from TikTok, TikTok shop, or we definitely see this pattern where things take off on TikTok and then people will go ahead and buy it on Amazon.

16:45One of the other companies that I work with, Front Row Group, we run the Amazon business for lots of amazing beauty brands. And we definitely have seen this pathway of, again, something spikes on TikTok and there's like a direct correlation to someone buying it on Amazon. So because of this whole first wave of K-Beauty where traditional retailers were kind of like, we're not sure that this is going to be a thing because a lot of these brands that we took on in this first wave did not succeed. Because there was this huge spike on TikTok and Amazon, now it's actually made traditional retailers go, oh, okay, K-Beauty is back in a huge way.

17:20So this year we're starting to see, and we're going to see even more in the back half of the year, lots and lots of Korean brands launching in traditional retail. It's so exciting to see because again, I am personally such a huge fan of so many of these brands and the ones that are going to make it here and really succeed and build long-term success are the ones that understand, again, you can't just plop yourselves on the shelves of like traditional retail without storytelling at all. You really do need to have this holistic view of telling consumers on social media, pop-ups, media, everything, like this is who we are, This is how we're different.

17:54And this is why you should want to engage with our products. And I think, again, the brands who I know who are coming here are doing a phenomenal job at that. Yeah, that's really true what you're saying, because even I'm noticing people are more receptive right now to K-beauty too. Like on TikTok, a lot of content creators are like, hey, do you guys know? Like they try to educate their audience. Like K-beauty is, you know, it's the epitome of amazing skincare. And I think getting really excited about it as well. I've seen that like just, you know, going through TikTok and scrolling a lot of just American based content creators.

18:26And it makes me wonder because there's this bad habit that I think I've seen the beauty industry fall into where everyone just buys, you know, it's like white label, right? It's like you just buy something and then you put a new logo on it, you know, and then you call it yours. And I feel like, I'm just curious, do you think that's going to happen with K-Beauty Innovations and what they're creating over there where brands, instead of bringing the whole brand over, they start saying, well, we'll take it. from this and we'll, you know, we'll connect with them, but we're going to rebrand it in a U.S.

18:55way. 150 % that's already happening. Yeah. Yeah. I think we start to see there's viral products, right? And so there will be Western brands who either kind of pick up on that product or even just again, sort of Amazon exclusive, like brands that happen to pop up that are dupes of that thing that absolutely is already happening. I think you can see some short-term success with that type of thing again like if there's a an ingredient or a product that's taking off maybe you'll see like a fast spike of it it's not the way to build a brand though and so i do think i mean there's so much competition across all of korean brands like manufacturing there is is wild wild and so you do see a lot of brands that are not quote-unquote brands like they are just sort of everything's white labeled all the ingredients are the same just the packaging is different and so i think where traditional retailers are smart is that they know what to look for and what, you know, what feels like white label versus what feels very proprietary.

19:52And so, you know, again, I have kind of like the inside track on some of the brands that are coming, like they have something special where I mentioned Mixoon. Mixoon grows their own ingredients. So in their centella, they grow their centella on their own plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides, right? So when you have these kind of proprietary things that like, they don't own the ingredients Centella, right? Like others obviously can use Centella, but because they have this plot of land that has never been touched by pesticides, you understand that then that ingredient is special, right?

20:23And so similarly, there's other brands like Neogen, that Neogen is a manufacturer. So they're able to own their own formulas that then people can't necessarily steal their formulas and then white label it. So I do feel like there are ways that brands over there are protecting themselves because they understand that the whole white labeling thing and dupes industry is really thriving right now right that's really fascinating though because i think that i see a lot of like celebrities getting in on this too like where they're gonna just be like well i need a brand so let me just go i mean in one way it's good because it brings good products right to people but in other ways kind of like come on but yeah no it's very very interesting though for me as a consumer i look at that and i'm very fascinated by asian beauty in general i think I always have been.

21:09It's just like now I love seeing how on a mass scale we're getting behind it, you know, as a whole, you know, beauty community in the US. I think the other interesting thing is that yes, we always focus on like Asian skincare, which is absolutely, you know, incredible. But I do feel like this year, we're starting to see more Asian color cosmetics. We're seeing hair fragrance, I think will come at some point soon. And then I do feel like body care is something that's like an easy, you know, if we think about Korean and Japanese skincare for your face, it makes sense then that they'd be great at doing body care too.

21:44So it's exciting to me to be able to kind of like launch into some of these other categories and to show how those products are quite different. Absolutely. I love that you brought up body care because I have to ask you, like, what is one thing if you could advise about in terms of how we've done facial skincare, right? That one thing that brands maybe should avoid when it comes to the body category, because I feel like it's going to be another round, you know what I mean? Of like the skincare that we saw for facial skin. So what's your opinion on that? Like any advice you have? Yeah, it's really interesting because I feel like a lot of people this year have been talking about how body care is so hot.

22:19And that's largely, in my opinion, driven by Sol de Janeiro, right? So Sol de Janeiro has an incredible job. To me, that brand, though, they straddle this interesting space between body and fragrance, where I think that it's less about, and listen, their body products are incredible and the Boom Boom Cream is great, but it's also about the smell of it too. So it's that thought of body care is a bit of like lifestyle that you have the whole experience of you like the sense of it, you like the feel of it. What people, and maybe I'm just more speaking from myself too, I will spend, I don't know, 30 minutes, especially on a weekend if I have more time on my face, right?

23:00I'll do a red light mask. I'll do like an acid or something. I'll do like a whole routine of things. But when it comes to body care, I'm lazy. Like, I don't know what it is, but even putting on lotion after a shower, I'm like, I'm just lazy about it. And this is completely anecdotal, but I feel like other people who I talk to, they kind of mimic the same thing, that ultimately body care, there's only so much that people are going to do. So I see a lot of brands who are introducing routines and things that are frankly too complicated like I just don't see people spending that much time on their body skin so I would say the focus really needs to be on the experience of it like how enjoyable can you make it whether it's through scent or other things just because I do feel like the the philosophy and the mentality around how we treat body is is very different from our face absolutely you know I love that you said that because I remember when people started doing the like the dry brushing or whatever it was and I was like oh no I have no time for this I do not have time and I'm lucky to like you know get my daily shower in so I completely know what you mean it's like it I'm just scared of that too right of like the seven step body care routine I'm just I'm waiting for it like covering my eyes yeah definitely and I know there have been brands before who've like come out with like different masks and things for body and I'm just I I'm not gonna do that I'm not gonna do it it's a lot it's It's a lot.

24:24And I just, I don't know. I think that it's interesting because, I mean, obviously we all know most of our skin is not on our face and we need to take care of it. But like, it's really comes back to what you were saying. Like, everything doesn't have to be this hardcore innovation. Like sometimes you just need a great product, you know, and it's just one is good. You know, one great body cream is sometimes good enough. absolutely and i think that's the thing too is that you know many people will buy like a body lotion let's say just at you know target cbs or whatever they kind of buy like the mass market thing but there is i don't know there's something about finding just a basic body lotion that's five percent better than the one that i use you know what i mean it smells great whether it's like absorbs really well and so i do think that in terms of innovation you're so right that it doesn't need to be this brand new incredible ingredient it just needs to be something that feels better that i actually really enjoy putting on absolutely now i have to ask you because this is huge like right now i see it everywhere on linkedin especially as longevity and i'm sure you've seen like a lot of doctors are like we're longevity doctors now you know and like they're going into translational medicine and i feel like it's hitting the beauty industry pretty hard too in ways um what's your take on that like this whole movement towards longevity with all the nad plus you know products out there now and like, you know what I mean?

25:40Like all the supplements and stuff. Yeah. You know, it's really interesting because during the time that I was at Allure, we were very specific about not covering supplements because as we know, it's really hard because a lot of that world is not regulated and there's a lot of claims that are made. And so we felt like unless we really, really did a deep dive into the science, we really tested things. we didn't have the resources to really be doing that at the time and like again really going deep into all the ingredients and so at some point we were kind of like we're just not going to cover it it's really hard to ignore now though that because it has become such a huge market i personally do believe in like certain supplements and i believe in you know what we eat and what we put on our bodies how we treat our stress and other things really affecting longevity i do think we're in an interesting time though, I guess, where it's become such an industry that I would just urge people to really do their research that I think we're in a time where, I guess, similar to skincare ingredients too, where because everything is this brand new innovation.

26:48And, you know, unfortunately, I do think that there's probably quite a large number of supplements on the market where you're making yourself have expensive urine, right? Where it's Sort of like, is it really doing anything? Are we just sort of, is it all just a wish and a prayer? So it's hard because on some level, I do believe we should take care of ourselves. We should do all those things. I do believe that some supplements actually do work, but I do believe that there's a large part of the industry that is kind of snake oil too. Yeah. And so it's hard. I think we all need to kind of find experts and other trusted people who really are going to do their research and tell us what's right and what's wrong.

27:27because a lot of it right now is kind of being shielded by a lot of like marketing speak absolutely no i love that you said that and i i keep thinking about you know how everyone's got like the big red light therapy like you know how tanning beds used to be back in the day now they've got the red light beds and i look at that and i'm like i don't know how this is going to translate guys you know like 10 years from now 15 years from now i would hate to see something like you know like detrimental come out of this like a cancer well i think that's the thing is that in general, I feel like if there's something that we feel like is not going to do harm.

28:00Yeah. If let's say we find out, oh, you were kind of wasting your time or whatever, that's more okay with me, I guess. Right. But I do think that if it's anything, if it's anything ingestible, it does worry me a bit more that like, is there a point in time when something will be considered, oh, this is actually bad for you? Again, not to say people should not do those things, but I would just make sure you're really doing your research. Absolutely. No, I agree with you. And I want to ask you, you know, as kind of like a take home question about what are you the most excited about right now? Like when you look at the, is it like a brand or anything specific that's really exciting you about the industry and the way it's headed and how things are shaping out?

28:38Oh, gosh, I feel like everything honestly excites me about the beauty industry. I do feel like, like I said, I feel like we're in a time of reset where we're, I'm excited to see some of the new brands that are going to be coming out. I'm actually weirdly very obsessed with makeup right now. Yeah. Personal level. I think for such a long time, I was such a just skincare person that then when I see makeup, if someone sends me things, I'm like very excited to get into it because you know what it is maybe for me personally too, like I've heard this across a couple others as well. Like I work remotely.