Reframing Our Relationship With Time Through Fragrance With Linen Tutu

0:00Hey guys! Welcome back to Spinanarchy. This is Ekta. I'm really excited because this is a fragrance Friday episode. and we're going to be introducing you guys to a brand today that I've absolutely fallen in love with, especially one fragrance specifically. It's just a beautiful luxury niche brand and I think that's like, for me personally, that's when I feel like I've found the hidden treasure, you know, in the fragrance world is when I can discover beautiful brands that are very niche but they're extremely well crafted, you know, so this is one of them. So without me ranting too much, I want to introduce you guys to the founder of Linen Tutu, Daniela Carrasco.

0:35Welcome, Danielle I'm so honored to host you oh thank you so much I'm so happy to be here um big fan of the podcast and I appreciate all the kind words yeah no I mean they're I mean they're well deserved you've created such a beautiful brand and it I can see how much of yourself you've poured into this you know the creativity because like I said you know I'm I kind of already shouted out one of the fragrances called afterthought and for anyone listening you know if you're looking for the first thing, you know, the first fragrance to look for. This one is so, it's beautiful, it's complex, and I can't wait for you to explain the vision to us, right, of the whole brand.

1:10I would love to get started. Can you tell me about your background? Because it's really interesting, you know, like the way you're approaching fragrance. Yeah, sure. So before I got into technical perfumery, I found the world of scent through aromatherapy. This was almost a decade ago. I was kind of going through a period of time where my anxiety, I've always struggled with anxiety, but it was at an all time high. And I was, I somehow stumbled into an aerobotherapy course in New York city at the time. And honestly, just my life has never, I mean, this sounds like a cliche, but my life hasn't really been the same after that.

1:47It finally gave me a way to quiet my mind. Like I'm kind of person that struggles with, you know, when people say like, Oh, quiet the mind, you know, I, I'm like, how, what does that mean? Like, I don't know what that means. But when I'm immersed in an aromatic material, I finally like understand that it's the only way I can actually like be present and focused. And so it really transformed my life. So it kind of found the world of scent through that I had always been interested in aromas. And like, you know, looking back in hindsight, I could see that a lot of my childhood, I was curious about it, but I just maybe didn't have a forum to explore it.

2:29Aromatherapy. So I did become a certified aromatherapist and, and I'm, you know, I'm talking about like, not, not necessarily the woo stuff, nothing wrong with that, but like actually studying the like clinically backed effects of certain aromatic substances on the psyche, right. Which is, which is a very different, I feel like sometimes the word aromatherapy gets tossed around, but like, there are actually a lot of really interesting studies that try to distill and unpack the effects that yeah, different aromatic substances can have on mood on how you feel right yeah 100 yeah no i i know exactly i think like a couple of times i tried to bring this topic up before but like you're you've explained it so perfectly is that it's real there's this is real you know there's a science to this and like that's where i i feel like aromatherapy you're absolutely correct is that it gets kind of misconstrued you know and in that like we're talking about like essential oils and we're talking about, you know, all this like incense stuff or whatever.

3:27I don't know what people perceive, right? When they hear aromatherapy, but I agree that it's much more structured than what we realize. Yeah. A hundred percent, a hundred percent. There's the like kind of more clinical practice, which is like, if you have a muscle pain or like a physiological symptom that, and aromatherapy does have its limits with this for sure. But like, you know, having a muscle oil that may with some ingredients that can help, you know, calm it or reduce pain, you know, to again, to a certain extent. And that part was interesting to me, but not I was not as kind of enamored by it as the other part of aromatherapy, which is more the emotional piece and the aesthetics, right?

4:08Because to convey a feeling or an impression and emotional or impression, you really do need to consider the aesthetics of an aroma that of a formula that you're putting together. And so that opened up my mind into like, wait a minute, this is actually like this starts to veer into the direction of perfumery. So I began, you know, in the US, it's tough, because we don't have a lot of like, formal programs for perfumery. I mean, there are really great courses and really amazing organizations doing the good work, like the Institute of Art and Olfaction in LA is a big one. Karen Gilbert, who's based out of the UK, she runs an online program.

4:52She's fantastic. So I learned a lot from her. There's like, there's a number of experimental perfume club also based out of the UK. So you can over course of time, like you can build your own sort of curriculum, but it is actually pretty challenging. It's especially at that time. Now there's more, but it was pretty challenging to find like courses and textbooks. And so I spent years really trying to like study this, practice it, building my lab and my studio, building my perfumer's organ and kind of sort of like went in that direction. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's really interesting. Like how you said that though, I don't want to interrupt, but like it reminds me, you know what fragrance has always reminded me of?

5:32I'm a big like computer game geek. So like Like it's always, I always reference like MMOs, but like alchemy is what it reminds me of. Like alchemy, like it's really a craft. Like you, and I don't know how you would teach that. You know what I mean? I know that there's, like you said, like I think Europe is very good about having like these, you know, kind of an institutional system where you can learn and you can really, but yeah, we have nothing on the US side. I haven't seen anything either. So that's interesting that you said that. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what, what's interesting about that is it's kind of led to this, I don't know, exploration of perfumery in the States that is very creative because we have a less structured way of learning about perfumery.

6:12I think in some ways, like, yes, on the surface, it's a limitation. But if you go deeper, it cannot also be a source of creative freedom because you kind of you don't know what you don't know. And like maybe you're more free to explore certain things. And so it's led to like a different genre of independent perfumery in the US, which is super interesting. but so I was kind of still to be honest like craving a more I'm a nerd I have to tell you like I love school I love textbooks I like learning like if I could be a student my entire life I would and so I was craving something a little bit more structured and I found a program at Parsons School of Design it's a strategic design program but a big part of its curriculum was about multi-sensory design and so I thought hmm this is interesting and I met with the program director and she was very encouraging of being able to like within the program spend some time and really focus my independent study on olfaction and so it gave me like a structured learning environment in more of like an art school setting to really yeah explore my and define my perspective on perfumery and I loved it it was I mean it's been yeah it's been really transformational for me that's really cool though because I feel like there is this like unspoken you have to learn almost like in a classical way art to like really understand like in what fragrances right because I mean the art and design and all these things are not it's a totally different thing that we're talking about right when we're going in that realm but at the same time like fragrance is not any other beauty category you know it's like a it's literally like you know when you're painting you combine colors to make a very specific hue and like the there's so much that's happening all at once from the creative angle that like you almost do need this classical kind of art background or some sort of training I think that's going to get your mind in this place because oftentimes what I've noticed and I'm you know I'm no expert by any means but what I've noticed sometimes with niche brands and I and this is why yours really stood out to me was because sometimes niche brands can do like like one note is extremely strong you know what I mean in the in the fragrance and it's like that's maybe they were going for something but it comes off as almost like there's no depth to the scent and then it like doesn't it doesn't translate for consumers you know what I mean I think the way that they think and I always wonder about that right because it's like you start thinking about like what goes into like people can say like there's top notes there's you know middle notes basic whatever but like what does that really mean when it comes down to the end product.

8:49And so that's where I find it to be very, I find the creativity to really shine there. You know what I mean? If someone can create that end product, that's going to give you this, like you said, that multi-sensorial experience. So having an education in sensory, right, is like, it makes sense for this. And yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. And there's so many, like, you know, if you look at the principles of visual design, so if you're talking about like contrast and balance and hierarchy of palette, right, of materials, all of those things translate into composing a formula. Like perfumery is definitely a science too, but there is a lot of art that goes within it.

9:30And like finding that balance, I personally feel is a combination of the science and the art. I don't think that you can, like you can approach perfumery from a very technical standpoint and say, well, in theory, these molecules should work well together. But there's this, if you really want to like get to people's you know understanding and emotion and like move them I do think like having I don't know a sort of like artistic point of view and that might look different for everyone but I do think that it really makes a difference in being able to communicate something you know that is more than one dimensional to your point absolutely yeah absolutely and so I'm curious though what made you think of the name because the name is very unique yeah that's a great question.

10:16So linen tutu is the juxtaposition of two textures that together represent the DNA of the brand. So you have linen on one end, which is a fabric made of flax. It's both bio-based and biodegradable in its unaltered form. And then you have tutu, which is kind of short for tulle, like the fabric that ballerina skirts are made of. And this is very fluid. It's transparent. and it's kind of like a watercolor you know if texture was a visual art medium it'd be like watercolors so these two things together that's really I think that's a common thread that you see throughout the collection that's so beautiful oh my gosh wow I love that oh thank you yeah no that's so beautiful and it's such a it evokes such a beautiful mental visual you know like I was just thinking about as you were speaking and and then having experienced your sense I see it You know, I see why your scents reflect that, actually.

11:11And I want to dive into that, actually. Now I'm excited because it really, that was a cool experience just now. So, you know, I want to talk about your scents because I think that that's where your brand is so, so, like, I feel like the amount of care you've taken, it really shows, right? In the overall way the fragrance is experienced. I, you know, I keep mentioning the Afterthought at 7. that one is stunning and but all of them are stunning you know and I think the reason I'm saying that is exactly what you just described because when you first experience the scent for me I can say this would happen when I first experienced it after that seven is supposed to be I think a marine scent right like a fresh okay so I I do experience that but then it's like you've blended in this beautiful subtlety of like floral and it just comes in and it's like you ride a wave when you experience this fragrance.

12:04And I just, it really did take me on that like emotional ride when I first, you know, smelled it. And I'd love for you to explain your vision with this scent and also the whole collection, you know, in terms of how did you do that? So the collection, the debut collection is four fragrances. There's Up at One, Hearsay at Three, Lately at Five, and Afterthought at Seven, right? And they kind of, each fragrance represents the human relationship with time. So up at one is about anticipation. Hearsay at three is about individual presence. Lately at five is connected presence, like being with someone else or with other people and connecting with them, being present.

12:45And afterthought at seven is about reflection. And it's really interesting that that one resonated the most with you. This is one I would say I was probably, when I was formulating afterthought at seven, it was a very emotional time period in my life. it was just kind of actually the height of the pandemic we were still in lockdown um I was had just left the city my husband and I had just left the city and we were missing people we were missing places I was you know kind of wistful kind of missing what I had but also grateful that now you know we where we moved we had a little bit more space and we were able to just walk over to the Hudson River and kind of like unload there and just like stare at the water and there's something about water that's very magical to me.

13:30It's very meditative. I grew up in Miami. So for the most part, I've been around water most of my life. And so each one of the fragrances, right, represents a different vantage point. And the way I went about that is in aromatics or in aromatherapy and the therapeutics of scent, but there are ingredients that are more stimulant. so citrus spices right these are like invigorating energizing and then you have other ingredients on the opposite end of the spectrum that are more sedative so woods incenses right these are grounding they're very calming I took that and this is where design comes in like I took that framework and applied it to the collection so you have like up at one has it's much more of like a stimulating, right?

14:23Stimulant fragrance has a lot of citrus. It has coriander. So there's that initial burst. Whereas if you go, you know, to the afterthought part of the spectrum, this is more sedative. Afterthought, like you beautifully articulated, it's a riverside scent. So it's a river take on an aquatic. It's not oceanic, but it is, it's really about a river, which is, and the Hudson River, which is an estuary, which actually combines freshwater and saltwater, but it's anchored by a lot of woods and there are some florals in there as well. And there's greenery. And so this is a much more reflective and melancholic kind of fragrance, if you will.

15:02Yeah. No, it's so, you know what? I love that you've incorporated time. You know, this is so special because I've always said this, like I've told my family, this, my friends is always, is my favorite time of day is that around that seven o 'clock time because it feels like especially on something like a Friday you know what I mean that feeling that you get of like you're so excited because you're like winding down but you're just done for the day and it's like you can't really explain that feeling it's just like I don't know you know when people ask you things like what's your favorite day of the week or what's your favorite time of the day for me it's always been that and it's because of exactly what you said it's it makes so much sense to me psychologically now because I love that time of day because it's not just about like unwinding it's like you you take a breath for a minute you know and it's like that's my time of the day where I'm just like okay you know and I you sit down and you reflect and it's interesting what you said about you know like the it's not like oceanic and that's exactly um what it brings forth it's not like this super strong like marine like kind of you know all the all the fragrances lately that I've smelled in this category have been very strong on the marine side that's why I found this to be unique because it's very like it's there but then it doesn't like kind of smack you in the face you know it's like very subtle and it allows for the other notes to really come through where you feel like it's like sitting in your garden you know what I mean and you're like casually like you're smelling different things right whether it's the flowers or the air or the breeze like you're having an experience and that's what this evoked for me you know when I first tried it so that it actually make psychological sense.

16:41That's my point. I love that. No, I love that. And I love that. I mean, it's so interesting that your favorite time of that seven o 'clock is your favorite time of day. And like, I just, you know, there's so much to unpack there, like something about that, right. Something about that feeling of like the sun setting and maybe taking a walk outside, like something connected to you. And it's, I love how you articulated the contrast between, or the difference between something that's more oceanic versus riverside. When you go to the beach, right, you go to the ocean and I lived near the ocean for many years.

17:12That is the main event. Like you were there for the ocean, right? You're there to be on the beach. When you take a walk near the river, it's, I mean, yes, you want to be near the river, but there's so much happening around you. Like there's a lot of greenery, like maybe it just rained and it's a little bit dewy and there's like, there's just so much more. And so the river isn't, it's not as much as like the main event as everything else. Like it really works very well in a very balanced way and more in unison with the other botanicals in the environment. Yeah, yeah, no, it's really, really unique.

17:47Now I want to ask you, like, I want to explore the whole idea because, you know, you've said before that your work really explores the human relationship with anticipation, presence, reflection. How did you bottle this up? I mean, this is a very deep concept. I think that's kind of the that that resonates throughout your your brand and you know what you've spoken about so far I mean how did you really bottle this up in a fragrance yeah so I mean I think you know a big part of it is is that stimulant to sedative uh framework or spectrum and just kind of taking that and finding parallels so and in the design world that's something I mean that's a tool I love to use is like finding analogs and parallels in the natural world around us to kind of guide the creative process.

18:35So I, when I was formulating, for example, you know, up at one, I knew that this is a Saturday morning, right? Like you're waking up late on a Saturday morning, you have the whole weekend ahead of you. What's that, what's that feeling that you have when you first open your eyes, you first wake up, there's this sort of like rush of energy, there's the optimism, right? And so if we look at that spectrum, and like, what's more, what is energizing, what's invigorating, what are the molecules or the raw materials that, you know, and I and part of it was also just looking at studies, like what has been proven to have an invigorating effect or stimulant effect.

19:13And so this one has a lot of citrus, and it's very aldehitic, and it has like this initial burst. But then, you know, I took some creative liberties, because I know in the real world anticipation, right, is really beautiful because it's this like pristine picture of what the future can look like. But as time goes by, the reality, like it may be beautiful as well, but it might be a little bit different than that initial burst. So when this fragrance dries down, it's much more creamy and it's a little bit more like a blanket and it's comforting. And so that wave, that like contrast of the lived experience of anticipating, you know, I baked it.

19:52So it was a combination of like the science of like what's a stimulant what's a sedative and you know in between like the the ones that are about presence like hearsay at three is about individual presence lately at five is about connected presence those kind of have to have a mix of both um because i do feel you need you know that that balance to be able to be present in life um i think the other you know the other thing I will say is the human relationship with time and the passage of time is something that really intrigues me and really inspires me and I think it's something that we humans struggle with partly because it's tied to our own mortality kind of like it really is tied to our mortality which is a scary thing and it's something that I feel many of us grapple with We live so much of our lives and I'll speak for myself.

20:48I know I've lived a lot of my life focusing on the past, what I could have done differently or focusing on the future, what's to come and trying to be present. But I have a really hard time being present, if I'm honest. And so our struggle with time ends up being a source of stress. And through this collection, I wanted to actually reclaim that and transform it into a source of awareness or even a source of empowerment. So that kind of like all of that formed the inspiration for what ultimately was bottled. That's so cool. I love that. I love everything you said. And I think that's so valid. You know, this, this idea of time is so closely tied to our own mortality, but also it's so tied to our perception as well of everything.

21:32You know, it's like we accelerate our own time. We also decelerate, you know, it's like there is this whole phenomena going on with the human experience when it comes to time it's not just about like okay well it's noon and noon is experienced the same way everybody experience you know everybody doesn't experience different times of the day the same way just like we don't experience different events in our life the same way right so it's like that there's a fluidity in time and that fluidity is like you know exactly what I was trying to explain to you like earlier you know when I was saying like seven o 'clock is my favorite time of day for my own reasons you know what I mean because it evokes this feeling in me that causes me to feel happiness or you know calmness or just reflection right like those things are not easily explained so I really like that you brought time into the equation here because I think sometimes when we're not able to explain the emotions or our experiences we can kind of do it through reflecting on the time period in which that thing occurred if that makes sense you know what I mean yeah yeah I love that I think that's the whole idea of presence, right?

22:39It's like the people say be present, and it's like you're always present. But it's like when do you notice that you're present? It's when something in time has caused you to experience something that makes you notice your presence. That's so true. You know what I mean? And so that's where I feel like the fragrance world is so powerful, and it has so much strength behind what you're able to do with fragrance because it will pull someone in and you'll really experience presence there. And then that's when people say, oh yeah, scent is tied to memory. Yeah. That's why it's tied to memory because you were pulled in for a minute.

23:17You know what I mean? And so that's, I love it. I love it. I love what you've done. And that is real thought, you know what I mean? And creativity. It's just beautiful how you've crafted this. Thank you. Yeah. You know, I want to talk about like how it was for you to create a brand that is obviously, you know, it's, it's beautiful. I mean, the products speak for themselves, right? But also you're doing this, this approach of like, it's biodegradable, all the, you're using botanicals, you know, how was that whole formulation process like for you, you know, from the creativity standpoint? Yeah, so it was pretty challenging.

23:53And I'll, you know, the first thing I'll say is, I work with all materials, generally speaking, naturals and synthetics. This collection in particular and this brand, I wanted it to spotlight botanicals for a number of reasons, but it's a huge challenge to formulate using botanicals. So two initial challenges that come to mind. One is just because something is botanical doesn't mean it's inherently sustainable. And in fact, when we're using materials that come from the earth, we have to do it with even more care and respect, in my opinion, right? We're taking something from the planet. And so we have to have a way of kind of giving back to it and like making sure that there's renewability.

24:39So this is really challenging. And doing the research in terms of sourcing and suppliers for each raw material, that takes time. And it's not easy. I don't believe in blanket statements, right? I believe in nuance. And I think saying like, oh, all natural materials are this or all synthetic materials are that like that's not true nor science-based each substance each molecule is unique and you kind of we have to treat them as such so doing the research supplier sourcing all of that really matters so that's that's one challenge and then the second one is there's just a practical challenge of a palate restriction so although I generally work with the full palate inclusive of both naturals and synthetics that that generally gives you the ultimate creative freedom, right?

25:26You can use any ingredient. There are thousands of ingredients and you have like, this is a very freeing thing, but this collection, as you know, was intended to be bio-based, bio-renewable, which means immediately you're restricting your palette to a much narrower set of ingredients, which is a restriction on how you formulate, how you create what you're using in each of the fragrances. Now, one caveat to that is, or one addition, maybe I should say, is there are a number of newer aroma molecules that are coming out that are actually bio-based and derived from renewable feedstock through fermentation, for example.

26:09So the m-broxide that I use is developed through fermentation. And I believe the origin source or like the feedstock is sugar cane. And so I think this is really cool. A lot of the big fragrance houses have invested in green chemistry over the past, I don't know, however many years, 10, 20 years, maybe more. And so over the past several years, we're seeing more and more ingredients added to the palette that are bio-renewable. And so this has expanded the palette of like botanical or naturally derived materials that you can work with for a fragrance that has a breathe or a kind of creative palette restriction that's specific to natural.

26:50So those are the, I would say like the two initial challenges that come to mind, but yeah, it is, you know, sometimes you say like, for example, if I don't have this restriction, oh, I want a base of a lot of different kinds of musks. Well, there aren't that many musks that are available, like plant-based, right? So not animal products, but like there aren't many that are available in the natural palette and so you it kind of this restriction I actually find to be sometimes a source of inspiration for creativity because you kind of have to get creative in terms of what you blend together what you combine and maybe like even question how things have been done before and like try something new and so that part I find really challenging and fun that's really cool actually what you said because it kind of makes me think of how you know like I think like personally speaking I think biotechnology is the future you know when it comes to a lot of different you know industries but I think also there is this beauty in you know when we're talking about something like botanicals right like I've always thought this like when nature creates something there are so many layers to that you know and so you're going to discover like a fractal you know everything's like it's like one thing that reflects the same way on a smaller scale and you keep reading it's like you you know it's much more than like peeling back layers that's not even like the right you know uh phrase for me to use it's like you're rediscovering molecules by experiencing the first ones right so like that's how nature works in general that's just science and so I think there's a real beauty in that when you're working with that you know what I mean from that angle but I'm genuinely curious to see like where this industry goes in the future of biotechnology because I think like if we could figure out how to do that in a sustainable way in a lab that would be amazing and then like link that up with like neuroscience right where you're able to then see like the parts of the brain that light up when you do experience like you know what you've created with your sense like in this collection like if you could neuro image somebody experiencing a fragrance that's supposed to evoke like you know something that's more like you know anzolytic or something right something like that that's powerful to see that and that then can guide right biotechnology and so I'm very fascinated by this this whole botanicals world you know because of that because you know we've used botanicals in so many areas of just human innovation you know look at our medicines you know what I mean look at everything that we've discovered in terms of like even like penicillin everything comes from this place of extreme complexity you know and botanicals are definitely a reflection of that so I find that to be very unique you know it was your brand that you did this and it doesn't even reflect actually like it shows that you have very precision in your formulas actually you know it's not messy at all so I'm very intrigued by this oh yeah thank you I I love how you articulated this, like what the future can look like.

29:49I completely agree. I think biotech, right. Having more, having access to a palette that's increasingly renewable and combining that with the neuroscience of things. And I, I feel like there are pockets of that happening, but I love your vision of putting those things together. I think that could be the next way, like this could be the future of fragrance, you know, I mean, it would be a dream. I'd love to see it you know because that would be so so powerful even from like the stance of you know people talk about there's like eastern medicine western medicine well a huge part of that is fragrance actually you know like a huge part of it is like neurocognitively like your brain completely lights up when you like smell really good food or like you go somewhere that you remember you know and I don't know why we should be investing in that in this industry I agree.

30:40I agree. I do think that's the future. And you hit on something else that I find really, like it has been kind of a personal transformative experience for me, working with a lot of naturals for this collection is I, so I find them, you know, as I mentioned before, like more challenging to control. And part of that is with synthetics, you're talking about like an individual molecule, like an individual chemical constituent, right most of the time and so you can be much more precise it's easier to scale it's easier to replicate a formula that has a lot of synthetics naturals right if you look at the gcms of a for example lavender oil right you're going to see a number of chemical constituents within them linalool linalool acetate coumarin right and so being able to look at that and say well if I'm going to formulate with this ingredient, you like, I need to kind of like follow, like ride the wave of the ingredient that exists.

31:41Right. So if I want to take that lavender and make it more floral, I would push the linalool, right. So maybe have more linalool in there, or if you want to push the freshness, you can dial up the linalool acetate. And so for me, in my personal life, you know, and I'll be really honest, like I struggle with control. If I feel like I don't have a like control of what's going on of my plans of the future it's something that I grapple with quite a bit and when I'm formulating with naturals it's it's kind of like a very humbling reminder that I have to ride the wave because control can also be a barrier to creativity and if I relinquish a little bit of that control and go with the flow and kind of like move to the march to the beat of the ingredients drum instead of trying to like super control everything you can explore creative territories that maybe you wouldn't have otherwise that's so real yeah I love that I love that I completely resonate with that because you know someone like a mentor told me a long time ago I'll never forget this like I was like so young and this is like totally in another you know it's this is medicine but they were talking about how like there's no better machine than the human body you're never going to learn more than you're going to learn from what naturally exists you know what I mean because it's like like that idea of like there's so much complexity but there's so much precision you know what I mean in the in in all of it looks like a big gray area it just looks like well this is just a lot of different but no it's very precise you know what I mean and that's why I said what I said about your your fragrances there is a precision you can smell it you know what I mean it's not like your everyday marine fragrance it's not like your, you know, another floral scent in your collection.

33:29It's very apparent that you've done this, you know what I mean? The way of like, you've tweaked it perfectly. And I can smell that because of the way that the fragrance lingers, you know, I'm like, I am no fragrance expert, you know what I mean? It's very, it's actually hard for me as a consumer to articulate what fragrance actually makes me feel. But one thing I do recognize as a consumer is when something can, it gives you an experience but then it also lasts in a very unique way you know that's what they call I think when they say a scent feels like it's lived in you know that's what I mean that to me that's what that means so like I experienced that with your collection you know and that's very difficult to achieve because you're essentially replicating what we see in nature all the time and that's the hardest thing to replicate you know what I mean like that's like nature is the most exquisite thing in the world you know so it's like I I don't know I I find it to be so fascinating that you've been able to do this and you know what's really cool what's really cool is that you mentioned that you have struggled with anxiety I mean that's not cool that you have to do that but it's cool because I've noticed that people who experience anxiety have this ability to filter like they're you're hyper aware of like everything you know what I mean like the nuances of every situation I myself have have had anxiety so like I know that experience of like you go through this emotional I think I don't know like change in life as you're experiencing it where it allows you to decipher or notice things maybe another person wouldn't notice normally and so those little things stand out more and that you know what I mean like that adds to like your own understanding so I feel like I can see you in your collection you know the way your personality might be is reflected in this as well so that's very cool oh that means a lot that that went straight to the heart oh no I really mean it I just you know like I said I'm not the best with words but you know I'm noticing certain trends you know but I would love to talk about what is the future for Loon and Tutu are you working on another collection or are you you know coming out with something in the near future yeah so there is a yeah there are a couple things I'm working on So longer term, there are, there's a collection, maybe more.

35:42I kind of, and maybe you picked up on this, but like, I kind of like to work in concepts. So it's really hard for me to be like, oh, like this ingredient is trending next year. Let me create a fragrance around that. Like, that's just not my, that's not how I roll. I need to be inspired. I need to have like a concept for it. I need to like really like overanalyze the concept and be able to communicate it through scent. And so I'm exploring something that's a little bit more long term. But in the meantime, there is a short term update, which is actually something that's launching next week. And this is a limited edition seasonal body oil.

36:24And it is lavender cookie is the scent. It's inspired by a trip I took to the south of France. It's a little bit aromatic and it's also a little bit edible. It has both like lavender notes and lemon peel pastry notes, so cookie and candied ginger. And it's what I love about the format of body oil. A, it lends itself to self-care, right? There's a whole, there's like the application of it is just, it's very like you're taking care of your body, you're nourishing yourself. Like, and so I really love that. And it's also kind of a less serious format than like an EDP, right, where I can just kind of have fun with it.