Rethink How You Choose Fragrance With The Magic of AI Driven Recommendations ft. iRomaScents & Veronique Gabai

0:00Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. This is Fragrance Friday and I'm really excited about this episode because we're going to be talking about all of the wonderful things that are on the horizon for the fragrance industry and really focusing on AI. And so I'm really excited about the guests that we have with us today because this is a really great coming together of the minds and trying to really talk about the next steps of what's coming up, I think across the board for many industries, fragrance being one of them, where AI is really reshaping the way that consumers interact with the products that we purchase, our purchasing decisions, what goes behind them, and how to really customize this experience.

0:37So without further ado, I would love to introduce you guys to the founders of iRomaSense, Abner Gal and Erin Berry. And then we also have the amazing Veronica Bai back with us again after so long. So welcome, everybody. I'm so excited to be hosting everyone again. Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having us. Thank you. I would love to get started. Abner, maybe you could get us started and talk to us about what was the original concept behind iRoma because this is a very new technology that you're coming out with, you know, and you're presenting to the world. I mean, what went behind creating this and what was the initial thought process behind bringing this kind of technology into the world of fragrance?

1:17All right. With pleasure. You know, since early age of mine, I like to invent things. I like to come up with new things. I like to think out of the box. And another like is I really like to see movies. I'm crazy about movies. And always when I saw movies, I asked myself, okay, something is missing. You know, in my age, I can tell you that I used to see the Charlie Chaplin movies without the voice and everything. So I went through all the progress in the movies. And I said to myself, okay, but one part, important part of our lives is the smell. And why can't we smell what we see? That should be an integral part of every movie that we are watching.

1:56So it was in the back of my mind. I didn't have time to, you know, take it seriously. But it was in the back of my mind. During our previous company, I told Erin that we are working together for about 20 years already. And I told her, you know, always thinking about having smell to movies, to add smell to movies. So one time that we'll have some times and probably I'll do something like that. And it did when we left the previous company. Then I rethink about this idea and here you go. So we started to work on that. And while we are working and while we are talking about this and that, what can we done, you know, smell is with us in every single move of our life.

2:36And it's not being used enough, in my view, at least in variety of fields. And we say, okay, so let's look for other alternative. What can we do with the smells? And, you know, back of our experience, mainly in Erin's experience, because I'm having my aftershave for many, many years. I don't play with that. But Erin is like many women looking for a variety of fragrances. And then we said, okay, you know what? The way that people are shopping for fragrances in the world is like in the medieval times. And we are in the 21st century. It's about time to change it. So let's do it. And here we go. Yeah.

3:09No, that's very fascinating, actually. And I also love Charlie Chaplin movies, by the way. So I understand, you know, I asked you because you're coming from this like very heavy R &D background and engineering and the STEM fields. And then fragrance is this beautiful world. It's very sensorial, the lines get blurred, and it's different for everybody. So that's a very interesting transition, right? When you think about that, coming from this world of facts and all of the stuff that goes behind engineering, and then trying to mesh the worlds of fragrance and R &D. So that's very fascinating. Aaron, I'd love to hear from you as well.

3:45When did you know that this was something that you really wanted to be a part of and to do it, especially in the world of fragrance? Well, working with Avner's, we've been working so many years together now. So you have a bond. So then you know each other's mind. And I just feel that fragrance market is a place to go because it's also based on the personal experience. I'm a fragrance lover. I love different smells. And I also like to go to the shop to try to see. But most of the time, you'll try the third one or the fourth one is all smell the same and when you go to the shop you see so many brands so many bottles which one should i begin with and then sometimes you also would like to try some niche brands but the niche brands eventually because you smell too many and you just you just don't remember which one is what now i just told Avnan you know this fragrance market is something we need to find something to help people to actually focus to be able to identify find what is the one that in your sensor is that you you take your box in a most efficient way rather than you get confused by all the bottles and all the walls and all the brands that your mindset get distracted right that makes sense and I think that's very interesting what you said is you know I think anyone who loves fragrance has had this experience of going to a retail store or somewhere that you're shopping and you start to experiment and you start to smell different perfumes that you really are interested in and then eventually you get to this oversaturation point you know of like now I don't know what I like I thought I did but now I don't I've had that experience many times in my own shopping experience and I think that oftentimes that leaves you actually in a place where you're missing out on discovering amazing options for you so I think this is very very revolutionary for the industry especially from a consumer standpoint you know when I look at it now Veronique I'd love to get your take on this because I don't know of a better person that understands the world of fragrance better than you.

5:46And I'd love to get your take on like where you think this is going to lead us when we think about the future of the fragrance industry and how it intersects with consumer experience. Just your thoughts on that. You know, it's interesting because from what we've just heard, yes, for everybody, choosing a fragrance is at the same time, extremely intimate, extremely sensual, extremely powerful, and at the same time, very confusing. And we are used to use our brain more in an analytical way. And it's because every stimuli we receive goes through the cortex. So you're used to analyze the sensation you receive.

6:27With scent, it goes directly into your reptilian brain, which is basically the most ancient part of our brain. And the stimuli that we receive from smelling something immediately engage you in your instinctive reaction or your emotional reaction. Not something you can explain, not something you can analyze, not something that you can rationalize. It's either you love it or you hate it. It's either it makes me feel good or it doesn't make me feel good. And that's why it becomes super confusing because we're not used to judge with our senses and we hardly are used to judge using our you know sixth sense if you will the idea of having a way to curate a bit the experience based on your personality is super compelling because now instead of navigating a hundred cent you will be able to navigate five or six, which is much more manageable.

7:31And, you know, I've worked a lot in the science of correspondence between the senses, because again, people have a hard time explaining why they like what they like. It's much easier for them to express the color they love, the food they want to eat, the music they like to listen to, etc, etc. And through that correspondence between the senses, you can curate basically what fragrance family would fit an individual. Imagine the power of AI giving us a fast track to that curation. And I think this would be absolutely amazing. That's why I love this idea Erin and Avner has created. Yeah, no, absolutely.

8:15I love what you said. And I think that that's where it's really interesting for me as well. And Avner, I'd love for you to comment on this because when we're thinking about AI, right? There's so much consumers don't know. We don't understand fully how AI works. And so when we think of AI, it's like, you know, this whole customization thing is a very new novel idea for most consumers where it's like, well, how does it know what I want? You know, especially when it comes to fragrance, because fragrance, as Veroni articulated so well, is that it's a very hit or miss thing. You know, either you love it or you hate it, that kind of thing.

8:46So what was your thought process when you guys were designing this from the R &D perspective? How did you really program your machine to capture that? How does that work in terms of narrowing down your preferences? You know, as an engineer, I have a very structural way of thinking. In our field, it's called flowchart. So as an engineer, everything that you're doing in life, you go by sequence. And the sequence is, you know, depends on variety of outcome and inputs that you have process. And when you follow the flowchart properly and build the flowchart properly, then it Eventually, the result will be good.

9:23And what we did, in order to understand what are the structure of the flowchart, the proper flowchart, what we did is actually we were observing and we spent a lot of time. I mean, Erin and I spent a lot of time observing the process. And that means we were looking at variety of shops, brand shops, multi-brand shops, how the customers behave, how the sellers behave, what they are looking for, what are the questions that are being asked, what are the hesitation. and so on and so forth. And I'd like to tell you a very interesting story on that. When we started the project, actually it was in the middle of the COVID and the air was closed and we couldn't fly.

10:03Many of the shops were closed. And then finally, when the air was opened, literally I jumped on the first plane and flew to London. And then Erin and I spent tens of kilometers and looking on variety of shops, shopping centers, brand shops, and just observing. And in the middle of Oxford Street, we went to one of the shops of one of the favorite brand of Erin. And we played like we are coming to buy some fragrance for Erin. And we spent, I don't remember, it was 20 or 30 minutes. And she really wanted to buy it. And eventually after we saw everything and she smelled so many, eventually we stepped out with no buying because she couldn't make up her mind.

10:45Surprise, surprise. eyes. And then I was observing on her also. And then in the middle of Oxford Street, I yelled, really, I yelled, Eureka! And the reason was because I understood that everything that we did was wrong. The questions were not in the right sequence. Some of the questions were not the right one. And then we came back to the drawing table and started to build all the algorithms from the very beginning, because that's a key. In order to know how to narrow down the selection, we need to ask the right questions. And the fragrance world actually contains two major parts. One is the combination of the items that preparing the fragrance and to the feeling of the user.

11:30And we have to take all this in consideration. It's a combination of the two. And you can imagine that there are so many ways, so many alternatives. And therefore, in order to narrow it down, you have to ask the questions properly. That's what we did. That's how we came up with the AI wizard. And based on the results that we get and based on the feedback that we get from the market, I think that we did a good job. That's awesome. Yeah, no, this is it's very fascinating, actually, because, you know, when I think about fragrance and I think, Veronique, you and I have had these conversations on our previous episodes where, you know, fragrance is very personal.

12:05And Veronique has launched iconic fragrances, you know, and they really capture personality, emotion. there's so much in her fragrances and I would love to get your take on this Ronik in the sense of like you know when you're crafting a fragrance it's more than an algorithm right it's a it's a very immersed experience that you go through when you're making it so how do you think I mean what are your thoughts on that like that process looking at that and then bringing that fragrance to consumers and how that intersects with kind of this flow chart model that Avner just described right what are your thoughts on this whole thing this transition yes so creating a fragrance is an act of creation right yeah the the tool that you're using are the notes the raw materials right the ingredients that you're going to combine together and it's the talent of the creator to combine those elements together to create something absolutely exceptional the way that i work is that I always want to showcase, if you will, one of those beautiful raw material as the hero of the story, if you will.

13:09But my goal is to provide the person who's going to wear it with a sensation, a feeling, an emotion. For example, the vibe of Ready for Rosé is fun. It's all about feeling the fun. The vibe of Noir de Me is all about rock and roll and feeling like you have an attitude, right? So you're going to give people a sensation. You're going to transport them in a place. You're going to transport them in a specific way of being. Then it's a question of matching that creation with the personality of the person who's going to wear it. Not everybody is fit for a hard rock, rock and roll attitude, right? Right.

13:54Not everybody wants to have fun immediately. Some people want something else. It's a question of matching the vibe of a fragrance, the personality of a fragrance with the personality of the wearer. And this is where I think the technology that Erin and Avner have put together can help because with indeed the right questions, you can narrow down the spirit, the personality of a person. and then give them a choice that corresponds to that personality that they have. You're not going to make the final choice for them. That I would highly say that would be very counterproductive because the connection you have with scent is unique.

14:37It is based on your unique journey. It is based on your unique triggers of emotional states. And that is deeply individual. So narrow down the choices so you avoid the confusion, but let the personality of that person, that unique personality, to express itself by the final choice of a fragrance. Because at the end of the day, the fragrance speaks to the soul. It's not just about algorithm or trends or notes. It's really something that's going to help reveal who you are, let you express who you are. And when you have that perfect match, my God, it's a love story that never ends. Yeah, no, that's so well said.

15:21I agree with you. It's just so fascinating, you know, because I think oftentimes even we don't know what we want. So if this can really help people discover fragrances that are really matching very well with them, right? It's that's beautiful because many, many times I've seen this on social media, my own, you know, friends, colleagues, whoever you talk to, they're like, yeah, I bought this new perfume. I don't think I love it. You know, I liked it in the store, but I don't think I love it now. And so you hear that a lot and it makes you wonder. It's like, well, why did you buy it? So I think that whole process of why do I like what I like?

15:56And then how can I really make sure that it's truly what I like? You know, that's a very big, great area. Yeah, if I may. Yeah, of course. Once you have a curation that corresponds more or less to your personality and you have more time to focus on less so you can really have an educated choice, I think at the end of the day, you must leave a little with that scent or two or three. Because a scent will react if it's good quality scent, if there is a lot of natural in that scent, the scent really will have chemistry with your skin. And now we have another layer that has nothing to do with technology or science.

16:39this is pure chemistry between the skin and the fragrance. And that chemistry is really what will seal the deal. And that's why for me, I always say to people, take with you two or three samples of the things you like, wear them on your skin, see how it works for you, then come back and buy. And it is not necessarily something that you can do everywhere because it's such fast pace, you know, in a store. But when you have that luxury of giving a minute to people to really make a right decision, they will really, really love you for it. Yeah, no, I love that you said that. And that's truly great advice for anyone listening.

17:21If you are looking for a cent, yeah, you should definitely give yourself some time to think on it, you know, before you purchase. Erin, I would love to get your feedback on all of this, because I think that, you know, it's very interesting, right, from the marketing angle, because everybody's different. So how did you guys really account for this in terms of the experience of the user? So when I go up to the machine and then I know that it's going to be customized for me, whatever is recommended. But then the personality component, the preferences component, how were all of these different factors narrowed down when you were creating the algorithm of like what matters in terms of the questions that we ask?

17:58How did you narrow those questions down? One of the things that when we come to the fragrance world, when you are a newbie, when you started to learn about fragrance, most people, they don't know what they like. They just, oh, this smells good. OK, I'll take it. I like it. No, I don't like it. But for those who are already living in the fragrance world, that maybe, you know, like me, I started to learn about fragrance since I was a kid because my mom used fragrance. So I started to know some brands. It happens in the toilet that my mom doesn't like. But you started to learn from there. And then when I go out with my friends, they don't know about fragrance.

18:36So when they go to the shop, they just random smells. And then when they talk with the shop sales, the shop sales ask them questions. So tell me, what do you like? I don't know what I like. Then the shop sales, sometimes they will lead you some questions. Do you like flowers? You like fruit? You like sweet? And I noticed that most people are very vague in this sense. And slowly, slowly, I also noticed that many people, they like to go into the fragrance world, but they don't know about how to begin. So the process should be more user friendly, easy to lead people to get into learn about something that match with their expectations, match with their feelings.

19:16And then they smell it. So you get the first impressions that once you have the first impression you like, then they would like to know some more. So that's when we're working on our questions, our algorithm, we put all these into the considerations. So the questions in the first start is about, you know, what are you looking for? You're looking for men, women, unisex or just any. For those just getting to the fragrance world and also people come to shops. Nobody knows what is unisex. Nobody knows what is some others that the new type of smells. But most people, they know intuitively, instantly, I'm a man or I should just try more men's smells.

19:57I'm a woman, so I will straight away go to women's smells. But only those who are more sophisticated fragrance users, then they will try something else. They will just go to any or they will like to just go unisex. I may add a little bit on that. You know, after 30 years developing fragrance, you obviously come also to the conclusion that people have a hard time talking about fragrance. And it's not because it's something nobody can learn. People can learn to talk about fragrance. But again, because the connection that we have with scent comes through the reptilian brain, we are not capable of rationalizing what we feel when we smell fragrance.

20:39And so I've developed my own little technique, if you will, to try to understand the fragrance family that would fit an individual. And that is, again, this idea of correspondence between the senses. People will be able to tell you what color they prefer in the rainbow. People will be able to tell you what type of food they cannot resist. People will be able to tell you the type of music they like to hear or the place where they feel completely relaxed. From there, because of that existence between correspondence between the senses, you can narrow down the type of fragrance family that corresponds to the other choices.

21:18And that I found was a very powerful way to try to help people curate my collection of perfume for them. And it works. And so whatever way we find to narrow down the choices is fantastic because once you have to choice only three to five, and also from my perspective, more than five cents smelled at the same time, you're lost. You're lost. So you can do it by increment of three, three and another three, and then you narrow down to the three that you really, really, really like. More than that, it's a disaster because then you're completely confused. So it's, you know, you teach people how to smell.

22:02You teach people how to enter that world. And what I always say also to people is when you smell in a store, close your eyes and smell. Because by closing your eyes, you're shutting down all of the voices, all of the noises, all of the colors and the visual that surround you and increase that confusion. By closing your eyes, you can connect with yourself and whatever you smell, you're going to smell in a much deeper fashion and you will connect with your deeper emotions. And this is when you know what you truly like. That sensation that you receive, that little smile within yourself, in your soul, is what tells you this is the one for me.

22:46And it has nothing to do with marketing and it has nothing to do with image and it has nothing to do with music. It is what's good for me when you close your eyes. And those are little tricks to help people really find the right perfume for them, in my opinion. I love that you said that, Veronique, because immediately what comes to mind is your aroma collection. I remember when we first spoke about it, it was exactly what you just said for me as experiencing it for the first time, it was like, it wasn't just about fragrance. It was about everything, you know? It was about everything that puts me at ease, you know?

23:24And that's what the Aroma Collection did for me. It was something that helped me get into a mindfulness state, you know, and it was far beyond just fragrance. It was an entire experience. That's where I think this becomes a very fascinating topic as well is that for Avner and Erin, and if you guys would chime in here, is this idea of how do we make people understand that you're not just experiencing, oh, this is a smell or a scent I really like. It's something much more than that. How did you account for that in the way that when people are discovering fragrances through your machine, they're experiencing something that they're going to hold on to for many years to come?

24:02Because for me, at least, perfume and anything fragrance is not just a product that you buy once. It's something that becomes a part of your life. It becomes a part of your experience. And so, you know, I would love to get your thoughts on that as well. If I may just add two things to what was spoken about earlier, with your permission. One of the examples for the questions, very confusing people when they are coming to the shop is that, as Erin mentioned, what do you like? How do I know what I like? So, again, based on our observation, what we learned from the observations, we don't use any open question.

24:35All the questions during the wizard are closed. So we don't ask, what do you like? But we give the opportunity to choose from the 15 basic smells. So if people ask us, okay, I don't know, I tell them, okay, just flow with your feeling. And then when they see the picture of the flowery or the picture of the fruity or something like that, then it's much easier for them to say, oh, okay, you know, I think I like this and I like that. If you ask them as an open question, there's almost no way that they will be able to get the answer. So that's one point. And the other point that refers to what Veronique mentioned, and I really, really agree with it 100%, that we all do respect to the algorithm and we all do respect to the technology.

25:21Eventually, smell is very, very personal. And I can love some smell and you will hate it. It's not a sophisticated answer. It's very personal. And that's why when the wizard finished all its work and it comes with a recommendation, so we could stop it there, but we say no, because still there is also the personality of the person and they have to say maybe with all due respect to the wizard, it doesn't match it. So therefore, we are giving one recommendation plus three other alternatives, which are similar to that one. And we had, in our experience, we had cases that people saw the first one, the recommendation, not exactly, but okay.

26:06And I said, no, no, no, no, don't compromise. We don't want you to compromise. Try one of the other three. And then try the other three. And in most cases, the second one will be the best. So we leave also the personality to take place in this whole process. That's really, really interesting because it's like you're giving them like a spectrum to choose from. You know, it falls on the same kind of wavelength, but they have some options. That's very interesting. It is. It is. And also talk about options. Some people, they always go for the brands that they know. But fragrance are many, many different and many different brands also offers different type of similar smells that you may like, but you just never have a chance to touch upon it if you go by yourself.

26:49But through our systems, you know, in one of the events that we did, and it comes with a few options. this lady she just said oh I know this one I have this one this one I don't know about this and I'll try and after she tried she said oh I actually likes it but if I'm in the shop I probably will not look at it but now I know I learned something new and I actually like this point right right that's so yeah I think that's the most fascinating part about this for me as well as a consumer is many times for example I'm sure everyone can relate to this you've had a fragrance in your collection that you absolutely love and you're like okay well I love citrus scents right something like that then you go and you buy something else and it might smell almost identical to something you've already experienced before so then that leaves consumers in a very strange place because you're going out into the world trying to rediscover what you love in a new way but then you don't find that experience right that becomes actually frustrating from the consumer standpoint because it's hard to discover a new sense in the same kind of profile that you truly love without feeling like you're being redundant in your collection so i think this is very very interesting from that perspective as well because you can then keep rediscovering things within that that spectrum of what you like the notes that you enjoy and you know the profiles that you've enjoyed before but now you're also discovering newer brands and new takes on that it is and And there's another funny story that there was a guy that he came and then he was just holding his phone, talking to his wife.

28:23He said, hold on a second. So let me let me switch the camera. And he's actually doing the process for his wife and then came out the four results. And he told his wife that I know. I think I know which one you like. He's made all four products for his wife. And then he told his wife that this one, this one, I'm sure that you will definitely like it. And his wife looked at it. Yeah, I think I know that one. And take a picture of that one. later on go to the shop to bring me yeah no that's that's really funny and you know i think we all do that it's like i've done that you know when i'm shopping for presents or something around the holidays for somebody fragrance is very difficult actually it's a very difficult area to find something someone will love you know and so i think this could definitely help in that sector as well veronique i'd love to get your opinion on this you know especially because now more than ever i'm just watching the industry and i'm seeing so many niche brands are popping up every day you So what do you believe niche or artisanal fragrance brands must do now that AI is here, things are becoming AI-driven, to really kind of secure their future in this digital world?

29:27AI will certainly accelerate a certain amount of things related to the industry. Probably, again, the capacity to choose, help the choice, the capacity to create content around the fragrances. We see that already. Probably also, if done properly, the capacity to help the process of creation by sorting out various types of raw material. What I think AI will not be able to do so fast, and you can never say never, right, is the more deeply human way that we connect with scent. For example, from a creative process, you can give the same set of paint colors to two individual, exactly the same sets of colors and the same paper and the same, you know, set of tools.