The Branding Balancing Act with Camille Moore

22:59Camille Moore:It's like you need to be like the mindset you need to go in is like you're learning to walk. You're starting a crawl, but you can't run until you go through those three other phases. So like buckle up and like have a different mindset that now you need to be in the process of doing it. And I think a deeper question is like it doesn't have to be video. I think it's just finding your format. You know, Substack has really blown up. It's done fantastic. There's YouTube where you can go into longer form. There's LinkedIn that's like completely untapped for kind of a B2B, like white collar. LinkedIn is like a goldmine.

23:32I always wonder about LinkedIn. Yeah.

23:34Camille Moore:You don't have to do floating head videos, you know, like find your medium and lean into it. And also to like keep making yourself uncomfortable, you know, to be a bit vulnerable, like talking to the camera became easy. Then what was hard was like me sitting down and writing every day. But like that made my content better because it becomes easy to just do something. And now my uncomfortable is like, I want to try to go live every day. And I say this and I didn't go live once this week. So that's the thing that I'm like pushing myself to do because you start to get into these spaces of comfort and that's when you need to keep evolving because the algorithm keeps evolving.

24:09Camille Moore:So you're not going to reach a destination. You're in a new journey. Absolutely. I love that. I love that. And I love the breakdown. Thank you so much for going into that detail because, you know, these are real, real questions. And I see like there are, I mean, the bigger brands I feel like can kind of outsource this, right? So they can hire experts such as you. They can hire the people that they understand, you know, like the real, like, what is the formula to this, you know? And I know there's not one formula, but, you know, you understand, like you can approach it. But like the smaller brands are what really kind of worry me.

24:41I've noticed recently, like, I don't know if you've been following like the beauty space like that, but a lot of them have been closing down recently, you know? A lot of times what I'm hearing from these founders through their interviews or whatever they're putting on social media is I didn't know that it was going to cost me this much to run my brand. They got funding. They got everything they needed. Well, the Sephora brands.

25:02Camille Moore:Yeah. Like the Sephora – it's crazy. And I feel like it's like you feel in beauty once you get into Sephora, once you get into Ulta. You made it. It's the mega. You made it. Right. And you got nothing else to do. But it's hardly the case. Yeah. And so, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? It's like this – I don't know. It's like almost like we've created a pipeline, right? And it's like we're pushing people with this like, you know, this mystery fairy tale thing of like get in and you're good to go. But then you get into Sephora, you're giving away what? 40 % of your sales? At least 70 % I think is what I heard last time.

25:41Camille Moore:It depends on the split. I mean like here's the rub. Sephora is a business. They've been around for a long time, 30 something years plus. They're not a new business. They're an LVMH owned business. So they're a business for profit. They have some of the best distribution in the market period. And they're in the business to make money. And I think people kind of forget that. It's like there's an egoicness to getting into Sephora because you kind of made it. But it's like anything else. It's like when you get to Hollywood, you know, and like you might get a like you might get an audition, but like it doesn't mean you got the part.

26:20Camille Moore:It doesn't mean that you're, you know, you're a Timothee Chameleon, like Chalamet. Chalamet. And I like I'm Canadian, so I should I should have the French. But so to kind of give like a little bit of those core dirty details. So, yeah, Sephora has a pretty aggressive split. And then they have a lot of really secretive things that often tank businesses. So the rough numbers are it's like you have to be doing 8 million in wholesale, 15 million in direct to consumer sales to start making money. Like anything below that, you're still losing money. And the reason being is like there's inventory costs.

26:59Camille Moore:A huge cost that really hurts brands is the sampling because they have to do pay millions of dollars like for the samples. And then on top of that, like you have to pay for the hype machine. Like you have to have people talking about your product online. You have to be doing like aggressive seating. You have to be doing PR events. So there's a huge COGS cost to getting into a store because you have to maintain demand that's competitive with like a Summer Fridays with like a Jisoo. But the upside though is like I think it's really easy to shit on Sephora. I think that what because there is an easiness to signing it with a mega retailer and to get like access to distribution.

27:39Camille Moore:But on another hand, like TikTok shop did 400 million in fragrant sales last year. They did 585 million in cosmetic products. Like the funnel is collapsed. And the brands that are succeeding in Sephora are private equity backed because like they can have the funding to ride the margins to make the money. Like they understand that algorithm of like what they need to make it in that kind of environment. but like you truthfully like it's never been a better time to win on a different playing field and so it's like it's easy to shit on them but i also think like they also have it tough too because truthfully like it's a lot of money to have retail space and it's a lot of money to keep the beast going and to fund all that they're doing so i think if where i would i would be critical on sephora is that it's gone to the kids like i think you're really going to see in the next three to five years a massive decline where they're going to have to fix themselves because more and more adults that I talk to are like, God, no, I'll never go back in there because like the shelves are just like pillaged and you go on a Saturday.

28:41All the kids. Yeah. It's like, no, thank you.

28:43Camille Moore:And there's actually like a brand concept I'm working on of like when the brands go to the kids, they're like not cool anymore. So like Starbucks, Aloe, you know, Sephora. But I think that people see beauty as an easy way to make money. And like there was a window for that. And like the market is now frothy. It's like when you see the cranes in the air, like it may not be the best time to buy. So I guess my point is, is like, I think that people get into it for the wrong reasons, too. Like, they're just looking at it for getting that 500 million or billion dollar exit. So, like, you have to have a good strategy and you have to have the right reason.

29:15Yeah, that's I mean, it's interesting to me because beauty, like you just said, like, for me, I've watched it become so saturated over the last five years. It's almost insane. Like, just like on the outside looking in, like, I'm just like, how the hell did we go from like this exclusive industry almost that it felt like, right? Because there was like these like strict distinctions, luxury, and then there's like affordable and then there's drugstore. Now it's like everything's meshing into one. Everybody's trying to give you the luxury experience. Everybody wants you to feel exclusive when you buy their products.

29:48That's where I really, really get lost because it's like the brand messaging isn't clear, you know? So a brand can come out with a super relatable product, and then tomorrow they'll come out with their luxury version of that product. And it's like, what are we doing? Why aren't we sticking? I mean, do you think it's smart to stick to one lane, or do you think it's smart to kind of develop these different lanes for different types of consumers in one brand?

30:14Camille Moore:You should have a clear point of difference and a unique selling proposition. And then once you see success in market, you also do have to build upon it because it's easy to get second and third sale from the same consumer than it is to get the first sale. So once you have an audience keeping them engaged, that's why like this past week I talked about like why it was so smart that Summer Fridays got into fragrance. You know, like when you think about where the brand has gone in terms of world building and like for all these 11 to 15 year olds that love the brand, like it's kind of weird to buy a 15 year old, you know, like face serum for their birthday.

30:46Camille Moore:It's, you know, it's way more normal to buy them fragrance. And, you know, for someone that's getting into it or like that likes the brand but might be more price sensitive, you hold fragrance at like a higher tier than you do like another eye cream, you know. So it's it's a really a great way to increase average order value into world build. But what I would say, though, is I think probably more to what you're getting to is like, you know, how how to stand out and how to stand out. Either you need you have to have time or money or you need to be prepared to like not take yourself so too seriously and build in public.

31:20Camille Moore:And I think that's like for as we get, you know, we have people paying us to do these discovery. We call them diagnostic kind of consults where we really look at your brand and give you a strategy on the way forward. And I would say like a lot of people come to us and they're like, we don't really have money. But and we also also don't really want to like talk about building in public online because we think that, you know, we're too good for it. We have all these designations after our name. We're like, you know, it's a luxury brand. Why would I talk about like how many times I had to formulate it?

31:49Camille Moore:And like, well, you don't get it. Like if you don't have money, it's so competitive. Like I can't have you break through because there's 48 million pieces of content that are posted every day. And when you go online, like you're served the best of that for you based on your algorithm. I think it's really about figuring out how to make yourself stand out in a guerrilla way if you don't have resources to compete. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I think that's also like that was always at the heart of my misunderstanding, I would say, around marketing was this idea of like, I don't know, I just I guess it was in a bubble, you know.

32:23And I thought that every brand had like$50 million ready to go and to spend on all the right things. But then you realize, no, there's a lot of people bootstrapping this stuff. And they've got very -

32:34Camille Moore:More than you think. Yeah. And I think that's also really frustrating for some people too, especially when they're a medical professional that has great science. They're like, the product is way better than Dr. Jart, baby bear sleeping mask. Yeah. Why doesn't this sell on its own? And it's like, you know, product matters, but good product is also table stakes, you know? And if you're educating on new science, like you have to make the customer care and the customer doesn't care until you make them care, until you find these hooky ways to bring them in. Like to educate online and to make it stick is no small task.

33:10Camille Moore:You know, if there's a term called the marketing rule of seven, and it's the idea of someone needs at least seven touch points to form an association between your product, what it represents in the industry that you're in. And to add new science on top of that, you're looking at 9 to 15 touch points. And that's like touch points that they're like actually aware of, right? It's not like... What do you mean? I'm going to interrupt you. Like, what do you mean about touch points? I want you to elaborate on this so that everyone listening can understand and follow. So whether it's like, it's why influencer gifting is such a big strategy for brands is that it's not...

33:43Camille Moore:So and it's like where a lot of business owners get it wrong is it's not necessarily a direct ROI of me like wearing a Van Cleef bracelet of like, are you going to buy it? But if you see enough people wearing it, then it becomes more top of mind. Like, you know that it's a Cartier bracelet or you know that it's like a Cartier. And it's like at some point along those seven touch points, whether you're aware of them or not aware of them, that association forms. And like, that's really what you're trying to create. So it's why seeding for influence or gifting or things like out of house marketing like McDonald's and Coca-Cola.

34:16Camille Moore:There's a really interesting book called How Brands Grow. And what they talk about in the book is that Coca-Cola and McDonald's pay to stay top of mind because the actual top Coca-Cola consumer for their ads is someone that buys once or twice per year. Like they're not actually advertising for someone. You might go to McDonald's once per month. They're trying to advertise for the person that might not think of the product on a day-to-day basis so that when that opportunity comes of they're going to go eat out or they're at McDonald's, they pick Coca-Cola over Sprite or 7-Up. Like that's the entire goal is like to just stay top of mind.

34:52Camille Moore:So when you see a lot of McDonald's billboards, like they're not really doing anything other than associating McDonald's and photo of burger so that your brain is just keeping that kind of like it's now past the rule of seven, but what that rule of seven represents. Yeah, that's really fascinating. I never thought about that, where it's like almost like a business card that you're always putting out in the world. Exactly, exactly. And that's why when I do content, like that's all my content is doing is like, because I started in professional service providers, I understood astutely, especially in real estate, because I work with a lot of realtors.

35:24Camille Moore:And it's different for every industry. That's why you have to know your own funnel. And I talk about your marketing funnel in the planner that I'm going to launch in April. It's a physical planner, the first of its kind. There's no planner that exists that does plans your brand and your content pillars. So I was like, I must change this. But the point is, like when I would look at realtors, think about the window in which someone decides to buy or sell their house and they reach out to a real estate agent, like how small that window is. And the problem is when you're in real estate, everybody knows like 25 realtors, you know, and the thing about real estate is like they always make you guilty for not using them.

35:59Camille Moore:So the problem in real estate is that if you only wait for that window of when someone as you're probably going to lose to someone with greater resources. Whereas the best way to win is to start to engage and connect with people in a real estate context way before they're making that decision so that you're already top of mind when they decide to. And which is very different than like a criminal lawyer, because like when you get pulled over on the side of the road and it's DUI, like that decision making framework is so small. So it's why you have to connect with them way more in advance or you have to have great SEO and strong AdWords because if they're Googling and they're not connected with you.

36:34Camille Moore:But the person that has that window is going to win. That's why I create, we create content every single day and we do the podcast because I don't care if you're ready to rebrand right now. I just want you to engage and connect with the content so that if you're ready to rebrand in seven months from now, you already think of me because you've been engaging with my content for seven months. Yeah, makes sense. I mean, I thought of you. I was like, I was literally like, when I reached out to you, I wanted to interview you, but I was like, she would be like the ideal person if I had a brand. Like I would.

37:01No, but that's the point. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:03Camille Moore:But that's the point, right? And that's why you have to, like, so wherever you are, if you're selling a beauty product or if you're in the beauty aesthetics or space, and that's where you really have to think in terms of value. Don't think of bottom of the funnel. Like, there's a place for each of it. Like, talking about the new Zerflazer. It's like, what is Zerflazer? Who is it best for? Like, that's bottom of the funnel shit. Like, top of the funnel is, like, what is a news headline? Like, what is something that is, like, relevant to the largest number of people? So and that's how we stack our content.

37:32Camille Moore:Like when we do a piece on like what could Gucci do better with Demna's new collection? You don't have to be in branding or marketing to have an opinion on that or like us talking about Meghan Markle's brand. Like everyone and their mother can have an opinion on that. But then when you get more bottom of the funnel of like the swipe through I did yesterday was like Ulta just joined with TikTok shop and like they've entered a$600 million or $800 million market economy. Like what is it? That's more niche. That's not for everyone and their mother. You know, that's for people that are in beauty and business.

38:01Camille Moore:So like that's not going to perform as well. So you need to like know these things. And like that's really what I break down in the course because it's so simple when you hear it, but no one's talked to you this way about socials. Yeah, that's the whole thing. That's the whole. That's why when I see content such as yours, somebody who knows nothing about branding, I'm like locked in because like these are things you don't hear about. You know what I mean? you see the final product which you don't understand the psychology of it and there is how you got them there how you got there and also like like that's the that's the brilliance right of the business when i first started this podcast i'll tell you like like little story but like when i first started like no joke like i only wanted to interview like executives in this space because i was like so freaking confused i was like how do you guys take a brand and like build it into what it is you know what i mean like that whole journey that happens on the back side of everything and And it's like it's completely different than what we see out here.

38:58And so, you know, speaking of that, you brought up the TikTok and the Ulta partnership. What are your thoughts on that? I'm curious. Like, what do you think of that?

39:06Camille Moore:I think it's brilliant. I think it's brilliant. I mean, they have the infrastructure. I think the problem is, like, all these brands, I'm going to swear, their heads are so far up their ass. Like, all these mid-tier brands are like, TikTok shop is too janky. It's too young. It's too cheap. I love TikTok shop. What the heck? It's amazing. But you'd be shocked and everyone is waiting for somebody else to be the proof of concept. And I'm sitting here and I'm like, y 'all are stupid. Yeah. And like about time. And the thing that's smart is the TikTok shop piece is you're not really brand building.

39:36Camille Moore:It is really where like tchotchkes, like they excel. You know, it really is like those late night impulse purchases. It's going to change, you know, like the, you know, it's a new medium and like all mediums, they mature. But the reason why it's intelligent is like when you look at Ulta has got the infrastructure, They have a crazy amount of doors. They have a great omni-channel experience. They have 44 million users that are in their rewards program. And their products, like, MediCube did 90 mil on TikTok shop last year. Tarte did 80 mil on TikTok last year. And, like, they're just not a part of that conversation.

40:10Camille Moore:And, like, even if they get a one-off purchase, the likelihood of someone stopping into an Alta or going and doing that repicky purchase in Alta is much, much higher. Yeah. But you're like, this is Moneypenny. she has entered the show but my point right like my point is is like it you need to have a larger funnel and i'm but also as an aside to that if you do have something that's more in the choshki category like a lip peptide or like you know you got a cheaper like spf glow serum blah that really is made for tiktok shop i would be putting everything and anything on it and like really testing it because the floodgates are about to open when i did a post on skims miss it got 28 million views across the two and a half posts I did.

40:51Camille Moore:So like brands are ready. They're really just waiting for somebody to do the first move. So stop waiting and get ahead of it. Yeah, no, that's brilliant. And I'm glad you said that because I feel like there is a hesitation. I've definitely noticed that, you know, like even just watching the brands move the way they do, like I'm like, why aren't some of you available on freaking TikTok shop? Like you're going to make so much more money. Like I, it's not even about the late night purchases. I feel like the accessibility that it brings to like just the average consumer is huge. And like, we are ignoring that.

41:24Like we've been ignoring that, you know, like when I first started on TikTok, I won't lie, I avoided TikTok for the longest time. I just did, you know, I was scared of it.

41:30Camille Moore:Because you thought it was for the kids. It was for your people. I really did. Yeah. I was like, it's a bunch of, you know, 15 year olds and I don't know. But like when I got on there and I saw what you can do just as a consumer, as a person browsing the freaking app i was like oh my god this is amazing and then you have brands oh yeah notorium is on there and everybody buys notorium from tiktok shop like i know yeah they're crushing on tiktok they're crushing it and like cyclar and like you know the entire like the center like any brand the center represents like they're all crushing it on tiktok no it it really is something that that the only thing that sucks is like i am canadian so the thing that is frustrating is like for a lot of Canadian business owners, they can access it because it really is only like an American service within the app.

42:19But like if you're in America, lean in because it is so powerful. Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, I want to actually shift gears a little bit because I want to ask you about a little bit of career advice because I think there's a lot of people that are coming into, they want to come into branding or they're here already and, you know, maybe hitting a wall, you're right. Because like sometimes I think it can be difficult to translate what a brand envisions and then what an expert is envisioning for that brand. So like, what are your, I don't know, maybe you can give us like a case study or just look at some examples of how people that are in the professional space in this field need to reposition their mindset depending on what project they're on, you know, in terms of like, how should you approach things from the get-go so that you're priming yourself to be an actual asset for the company rather than just going in circles and hitting a wall and then, you know, whatever, like exiting without really getting anything accomplished.

43:10Camille Moore:Well, you mean more from like an employee personal brand standpoint? Well, employee, but also like, okay, so say I had a brand, I hired person X, right? Like take over my branding, take over my strategy for marketing, all of that. And then that person couldn't understand what I need, you know? And like, I get frustrated as a founder, they get frustrated with me maybe, because maybe I'm not giving them, like, where do you think that balance is of like making professionals understand what the brand needs. There's two pieces to this that makes it complicated. On one hand, there is no barrier to entry from a marketing standpoint.

43:47Camille Moore:So the thing that is frustrating and difficult is like there is a lot of junk out there for people who are coming in to manage, you know, your socials and manage your brand. So you do have to be informed and educated for knowing, you know, what are content pillars? What are your brand strategies? What are the pieces of content that work the best, you know, for your brand? So you need to be informed, one, because I think that a lot of people, they see it as a box to check. And it's something that they can outsource like their taxes. And you are your brand when you're a founder and you're involved.

44:18Camille Moore:So and it's only ever going to be better when you're involved. Like I write every single one of my own sub stacks. I write every single one of my own swipe throughs. Like we prep every week personally for the podcast. Like that's why our content is great. Like we are at the heart of our content. We have teams that edit and post and stuff. But we are like in the heart of our content. On another hand, when with what you're asking, it's about also ensuring that I really actually think that's what it comes down to. Like, I think when I see the best winning teams is like you interview the agencies or the talents better when you're more involved.

44:49Camille Moore:When like, I just find the founders that I love working with have an idea. They're doing their own research. They have their finger on the pulse because like they want to win, like they're in the game. so I think that if you go through that mindset shift and like you do something like my master class or the planner or you just consume a ton of content from myself or like the brand blueprint or or in meats world or ashwin like if you just are really fixated on like spending three to five hours a week on studying that you will have a disproportionate change in output because on one hand you will get more from the team you work with because nobody's going to care more about your brand than you do.

45:26Camille Moore:But you also change the way in which I talk a lot about like that Olympic difference. So if your team brings you an idea, and you're in the game, and you tweak the concept even by five or 10%, like that can be the difference that takes it to 100 ,000 views. And like people don't think in terms of those tiny tweaks. So it's like having a doctor's assistant, but being the doctor, you know, like you that you still need that doctor there to guide and to make those changes. So I hope that you go through a mindset shift because if you do and you do that, anyone you hire or anywhere that your brand goes with a team is just going to be better.

46:01Camille Moore:That makes sense. No, I think that's the thing that, I don't know. I always wonder because it's like once you hire on like a full team as a brand, like you've hit that point where you're like, I can afford people that are like true professionals in like certain areas like marketing, communications, whatever, social media. I feel like I can hand it off to them and they're going to make magic happen for me, you know? And I've heard a lot of PR pros say this too, where they're like, PR isn't magic. You're not going to hire me one day and then next day, all of a sudden your brand is in every major outlet and everybody's buzzing about you.

46:33It doesn't work like that. And that's why I asked you is like this. I feel like there's an expectation that needs to be set on the founder end where it's like, okay, you still have to be involved. You can hire an expert and you can get their insight and they'll help you. but then like you can't just exit the scene, you know, and just say they'll figure it out, that kind of thing. So that's why I was like very curious about that.

46:54Camille Moore:Yeah, it makes total sense. So, I mean, in terms of like, I know you've talked a lot about like brands, you've talked a lot about like certain brands, like case studies that you've discussed, you know, on your platform. What are some of the most standout ones for you in terms of either success or failure or whatever that really stood out that you can share? And then I'll just be my last one because I got an 11. So it's tough because like my favorite brand is Gentle Monster. And the reason why I love Gentle Monster the most is like they understand investing in their brand is a lagging indicator for success.

47:30Camille Moore:It's not just about ROI or KPI. so that one is my favorite for really leaning into like making a difference and impact that's not the easiest for people to learn from but it's definitely a great place and like focus on the brand and the rest will come like you don't have to understand how to spend smart but they're a fantastic case study on world building another brand that i love is charvet it's a parisian i did a video on it today so if you go back on my page and you can see there's like a split screen on it, but it's a 200 year old, like, you know, tillier shirt maker out of Paris and they don't do anything crazy, but they just focus on offering a really great product.

48:07Camille Moore:And I think there's an art in that also missing. So to that point, there's also something in like just doing stuff that's great. You know, another brand that's fantastic is Metal Lane. And like I talked about on this episode already, like Sammy Newsdorf building in public. I mean, he's such a great example of it can be a luxury brand and you can still be raw and be real and people will come. And I think that's another thing too, is people get so in their head of like, no, you know, this is a fancy brand. This is a premium brand. I can't talk about, you know, delays and there being problems. And I'm like, be real.

48:38Camille Moore:Like that's what people want online is to connect with. So I would say the three of those give you enough for how I think about brand. And that's why our podcast is called The Art of the Brand, right? It's understanding, you know, where is that space between science and repeatable logic. And then where is there an art form in which that it's not as easy as it to just only be repeatable? It's kind of that the alchemy of how it fits between those two. And so that's how I'd answer that. I love that. Well, thank you so much. This has been amazing. And you're amazing. And I'm going to continue binge watching your content because it's so, so fascinating.

49:10And I can't thank you enough for this interview. I know all of our listeners are really going to appreciate these insights. So thank you so much. It's been wonderful.

49:16Camille Moore:I've been so happy to be here. So thank you so much for having me.