The Science of Hair Supplements Featuring Nutrafol

0:28Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. having me. I'm really happy to be here today. Yeah, I'm excited to chat and, you know, kind of dive into hair health because I think it's definitely a topic that's trending now, but it's been very, very important, you know, in the realm of wellness, beauty, and, you know, all these different categories. But I'm so glad that it's finally, you know, coming to the forefront and everyone's kind of really discussing it. So before we dive in, I'd love to learn about your work with Nutrafol. If you could kind of give us a little information about yourself and walk us down memory really, and how you got involved with the brand?

1:00Sure. So I was a friend of the founders. I have been, I have a PhD in biomedical science. I have been in med affairs, clinical research in industry for a little while now. I'm not going to reveal how long, but it's been a while. And I've done everything from medical dermatology to aesthetics. But before that, I was even in neurology and cardiovascular. So I've done kind of like all the gamut in terms of the pharmaceutical and medical devices and going to a conference, the AAD or the American Academy of Dermatology, I met the founders of Nutrafol and they were like really great talking about their supplement and eventually got me to join.

1:42And so it was a very interesting time because they were growing as a company, people had awareness of them and our studies were just starting to come out. So I joined just to head, you know, help with the science and the clinicals and we're again, still very small that we could, you know, be very creative in terms of like how we, how we studied the product, et cetera. And so really have enjoyed this new chapter of supplements versus the pharma and the med devices that are so mandated already by, you know, the FDA and how we study them. So it's been a very, very fun journey. So I've been there for five years and have just been leading the team.

2:19And it's been really, really, really exciting and fun to see this company grow so much. I always wonder about when scientists get involved with certain things that I feel like are a little kind of the gray zone. I feel like supplements for a long time were there. You know, I remember growing up and like not knowing much about supplements. And like whenever I'd see them, it was kind of like, well, my doctor didn't prescribe it. So I'm not going to really take them. But then as you get older, you start like doing your own research and like you start actually, you know, wanting to invest in certain brands.

2:50And for me, Nutrafol was always, you know, ever since I discovered the brand, I was like, I really like how everything is very research backed. I would love to learn about, I mean, maybe some of the misconceptions you had that you personally held about supplements before you joined the company. Yeah, no, exactly. So I was skeptical. You know, I think as, as anyone, you know, supplements, you know, they're just, when you hear about them or their advertisers, like, you know, what is behind it? How is it studied? And, you know, when you know that the health pharma is done, you just don't assume or know much about how supplements are regulated and people assume it's the wild West and, and you can say whatever you want and write whatever you want on your labels and make whatever claims you want without any substantiation, which is actually not really true.

3:31But again, that was my vision or that was my thought I would say about, um, about that. So when they asked me to join, I was a little bit skeptical, you know, because I said, I feel like I have a really good reputation. I'm well known in this, in this, in the derm world. And then when they were sharing their data with me, that really is what opened my eyes because I said, they're just applying, you know, the basic research principles on their supplement when they don't have to. And I think that's what I really loved about it. Like there's no mandate. They don't have to do full formula testing for efficacy.

4:02so for safety yes but not for efficacy and so to have a company invest so much money in hair research and I don't know if you you're you or your fault or your followers are really familiar with how hair research is done but it is so hard it is hard because you are using objective measures you are taking a photo a macro photo of of an area of a head that you have to go back to and count the hairs right and so it's just the methodology is is quite difficult and for a company to invest a in doing the right methodology, but also in the right studies. And then a full clinical program to me was just really cool, because I feel like we're the forefront.

4:42And we're kind of like the leaders in terms of how would you study a supplement? Well, right? How do you provide that credibility? How do you provide what is necessary for people to believe that a supplement can do something, and it will do the right thing for you. So I think it was a challenge. But looking back, I'm really thrilled because I feel like we're really setting the bar for supplement companies in the future. Absolutely. No, I actually do look at Nutrafol like that because I feel like there is, there has been a bar set, you know, in terms of just supplements that are actually trustworthy.

5:15I mean, I won't lie to you. I think that when it comes to supplement research, there are a lot of spaces that I always felt like were not filled. You know what I mean? Like I'd go to websites of other brands and I'd be like, where's the data? where are the clinical trials, where's, you know, like looking for the actual facts and like you couldn't find them. Those of us who come from science backgrounds, we know what to look for. So like, you know, you can go, but for general consumers, I can imagine how much more difficult that would be. I want to ask you about that because, you know, you have this background, right?

5:43And like the rigorous research background. So how did your experience in pharmaceuticals really shape the way that you approached product validation? It was challenging. I'll say why, because in the pharma world, you are mandated by the FDA. These are the endpoints you need to study. This is the number of subjects you need. So it's kind of laid out for you in terms of how you're going to get product approval. So there's no gray zone in terms of how should we design the study and what should we be looking for and what's going to be meaningful. So for supplements, though, there's no guidelines. There is absolutely no guidelines.

6:14So you really have to think about what is going to be meaningful and what are the claims you want to make. And so I think first and foremost, it's just being a smart scientist. Honestly, I don't think we did anything that was outside of the box in terms of how we think scientifically. It was just done, which is what stands out. So really thinking about what studies do we need to show that it works, right? We need a placebo-controlled trial for that. Let's do that. Okay, now we need to show that it works in the population that we attended for. So let's do a different study now in a more diverse group.

6:46Now we need to know, will it work in this population at large or what are the side effects or what are the safety around it? And so we really designed a full program like we would for pharma. It's just not mandated. And we had to be a little more creative with it, too, because, again, so we did model in terms of like what physicians would be looking for and what's meaningful to them. So looking at, you know, for the trichograms and hair counts, et cetera, that matters. right? We know that our audience of physicians would see the benefits there and with their endorsements and with their becoming advocates for us, it kind of also helps with knowing that we're on the right track.

7:24And they also say, you know, I'd love to know what happens if I give Nutriple in this population. So working together with thought leaders in the space also helps us design the best studies. So it really is having an open mind and being able to be a creative, but also scientifically sound in the methodology that we use. I'm really happy to hear that you got the medical side involved, because I think that's such a valid point that you brought up, is that with doctors, it's like you kind of have to really understand, like, you know, when you're talking to a patient, like there are certain things you have to address.

7:58And so knowing that for companies to know that is very important, I think. I mean, that's very rare to see when you can really kind of address all the needs like a physician would have. Right. And all the questions they would have when they're especially because we're the ones that interface with the with the patients. When they're going to ask us questions like we have to be able to give like, you know, answers rooted in actual fact. Yeah, no, exactly. And then also, I think in what people kind of tend to forget sometimes subjective measures like asking people about, you know, do you believe that your hair grew?

8:28Or do you see an improvement? That is seen as more subjective and maybe less rigorous, if you will. But in addition to the objective measures that we use to show the product works, it also is important that your patients will see an effect. Because if I say, you know, objectively, you'll have, you know, so much increase in hair growth, that's great. But if the person does not see their own results, then it's kind of meaningless, right? So it really is important to be able to measure efficacy and results in different ways, in different manners. So when you tell your patients, well, you know, subjects who took this or patients who have taken this have seen improvements in so long, especially with hair, because hair is not immediate.

9:11Hair takes three to six months to see results, regardless of what you are doing, regardless of the treatment. Hair cycle is long. It will not happen overnight. So to see claims and say like your product will improve hair within a week for growth, it just it doesn't make sense. And so it really is kind of like we need to, to be humble in what we're sharing and also in what we expect and what we want our patients and our subjects and consumers ultimately to expect. It's a fight between science and marketing. Yeah, it's like this ongoing battle. But you know, with that said, I would love to learn I mean, are there any myths about hair health and supplements that, you know, you find yourself debunking a lot on a daily basis on a daily basis i say you know if i travel and i i want to talk on an airplane or something i tell people i study supplements and and that just keeps me talking the entire trip if i don't just say i do something else because everyone is curious and everybody has their their preconceived notions of base you know of what they get on their feed or what they've been told or how they grew up you know so we have some physicians who are such believers and they believe even, you know, making sure that you have the healthiest, you know, whatever you can contribute beyond your diet is important.

10:24And so it's, it's where people come from. And the questions we get are always similar to what I said earlier about hair growth, for example, that is a big one. And why don't I see results right away and just debunking that's not even supplement related. It is biology related or growth cycle is a very long cycle and you will not see any benefits in terms of growth for for weeks to months we say at least three months and six months and beyond right so that's a big one um secondly supplements the fact that they're not regulated i think there's a lot of confusion there they say well you guys can do whatever you want it's like well that's not true and there is regulation more specifically related to quality and safety and you have to work with the fda to submit these these claims and you have to work with them to to show the safety and how it's manufactured.

11:14And, you know, and then we see these articles about like all these heavy metals that are found, you know, and whether you're talking about protein powders, you know, there's just so much out there that people have a hard time understanding how they are, how supplements in general are manufactured, how are the quality and how they're tested, you know, like we, and even adverse events, for example, adverse events, post marketing. So that's done in the drug world. You know, we're well aware that anytime you do a study or if you are post-marketing. So that means once you're on the market, if a healthcare professional hears about an adverse event for a drug, for example, they have to report it.

11:52And if you work for the company, you also have to report it. There's a certain timeline, et cetera, that is a process that you follow. And we have to follow that too. And that's a big misconception that people don't know. So when we do, we do monitor for adverse events. We do all that. And we have third parties tabulate that for us. and we do submit to FDA. So there is a level of safety there that people are not aware of that I think is important to know as well. That's really interesting. Like you guys have to actually report all of the adverse events and stuff. That's very interesting because, you know, I think a lot of times people have this misconception around supplements.

12:30I've seen this a lot where, you know, people will chime in consumers and they're just like, you know, I don't think anyone's hearing me. And it's like, I think they are, you know, because you have to, like right you have to at some point if somebody reports something you have to actually like address that you can't just ignore it yeah you do and there should be a number they should be very clear who you're supposed to call and and what you're supposed to do and that kind of is also a sense of that gives you the the the confidence that the company that you're you're purchasing from will provide all not the services does have all the regulatory structure in place right and And I think that's one of the misconceptions that I hear about a lot, you know, everything related to the quality and you guys can just put whatever the labels can say, whatever.

13:14Another thing that I get asked about a lot is, is God, there's, there's so many ingredients and there's so much of it. Like, how do you know which amounts? Like, are you just choosing your, your, you know, randomly putting in, you know, South Palmetto or, and it's like, no, it's based again, it's based on studies. It's based on what is the serving of that ingredient that you need to address what you want to address, right? For us, again, it's going to be related to hair. So we want to make sure that the amounts of the ingredients in our product have a scientific base, number one, and number two, that it's consistent across, right?

13:53People don't believe that, oh, supplements, you get different batch from one to the other. You won't have the same ingredients. And that's not, again, necessarily true. companies should have standardized ingredients and they should be standardized across each bottle. And so that it's consistent. So you know that when you're taking your product, you take the same thing in the same dose or serving on a daily basis. There's a lot of stuff out there that's misinformation. So I'm glad that you're speaking on this, you know, honestly, because I, I feel like that is the general consumer. Like, you know, they, they do think, and all of us have this tendency of thinking like, Like, oh, am I really taking what this advertises, right?

14:32I mean, I want to talk to you a little bit about biotin. I feel like this is, like, one of my, the big questions I have, you know, is this idea of, like, for a long time when it came to hair health, right? I mean, all, like, hair health, nail health, all of that, biotin was the ingredient. It was, like, everybody take biotin. And, I mean, as you know, like, from a medical standpoint, there's a lot of downsides also to excessive biotin, you know? So like, what are your thoughts about the single ingredient, you know, method versus like the more holistic approach? People want to know why am I taking, you know, 26 ingredients and four pills, right?

15:08Why is that important? So I think, again, going back to what I said earlier, each, the ingredients are there at the servings that are needed, that have been studied to show an effect. And then we study the formula in its own to make sure that there's an effect. But when you think about hair growth, and I think this is what the founders started talking about a decade ago now, because they've been up for a decade is really, you know, thinking about how hair growth was approached in the past. It was very monadic. It was like one ingredient was one root cause. It was, you know, we're addressing hormones more specifically.

15:40So minoxidil, finasteride, biotin are all targeting one thing. So what they really put out there is they're looking at the research of what affects the hair follicle and knowing that your whole body is going to affect it, right? So you know that the gut microbiome is hugely important for hair growth. The stress is important for hair growth, oxidative stress, lifestyle, hormones, you know, a lot of these things are all feeding healthy hair growth, right? So if you have an imbalance, if you have an issue, if you're super stressed, if you're, if you have leaky gut, all these things will affect hair growth.

16:14So it's providing a product that addresses each one of these root causes, knowing that all of them together will support a healthy hair follicle and therefore healthy hair growth. Just targeting one can help, but it kind of, it misses half, it misses most of the picture, right? So really, and when talking to dermatologists, you know, when they see patients, they throw the kitchen sink at their patient. We don't know what the cause is going to be. So they do a lot of tests, but also knowing that it could be so many things affecting your hair. So we're going to make sure that we look at you holistically.

16:45And I think that was a very important first part to understanding hair biology and how we're all pathways. I mean, like it's a little more complicated, but really the big, the big picture is a lot of things can affect your hair growth and hair is a reflection of your health. So looking at it that way, one ingredient is not, it should be helpful, but it's not going to be the most helpful because you're probably missing other things. I completely agree. And I think that that's something that's also like a big education point is that you know just adding to what you said there needs to be this understanding that with supplements and I feel like with anything right I mean in the at the grand scheme of things you're the human body is not designed for single ingredients you know like the way the body works is just it's contradictory to that you know it's like even when people talk to me about skincare right and they talk about things like collagen production I'm just looking at them and I'm like wondering I'm like collagen production is not like a one done, you know, kind of thing.

17:42Like there's about like five, six cofactors involved. Yeah. So like, just like the way the body works, I think it's very important for consumers and everybody to understand that, you know, when you are taking something like a supplement, it does need to follow this kind of ethos, kind of what you were talking about, where there are multiple ingredients, they're working synergistically, there's different reasons they're in there. That is how the body works and processes information. Absolutely. And again, I think, you know, what we try to do, which I really, really respect is if you don't take care of your body, you know, you need to move, you need to eat well, you know, all these things are also, they have to be in combination.

18:18They have to be that they have to, you have to start there because if you, you know, a supplement is going to help, but not if you don't help yourself too. So I think that's also a key point. People assume like, oh, I'll just take this and it'll be better. It'll counteract what I do. And that kind of defeats the purpose. So we really try to talk about, you know, your hair is a reflection of your health. And if you're going to be stressed, then what are you going to do to help that stress? What are you going to do to, you know, just taking it, you know, a stress adaptogen, sure, it'll help. But, you know, there's other things too.

18:48There's the meditation, there's the there's the parts of practicing methodology to remove yours to reduce your stress. So I think I think we also talk about lifestyle a lot, because without lifestyle supplements, it's going to do very much. And even like, what comes first, if you don't have a good diet, you know, you're not going to absorb the nutrients that you need for hair and like giving a supplement will help again. But you know, let's let's bring you to a good balance first, right. And this could be something that kickstarts your journey, right? One doesn't have to start with the start without the other.

19:22But I think it's important to look at again, from a holistic perspective, not just from a supplement standpoint, and what the supplement is doing for you, but also how you how you address your health in general. I agree, I agree. That's, that's very, very valid what you're saying. And, you know, I actually want to talk about a specific subgroup of individuals. And I think this is definitely something that, you know, finally, we're discussing more as a society is, which is menopause, you know, and I think this is very important, because when I think about about like hair thinning, for example, you know, there's a lot of, I know there's a lot of like autoimmune conditions and there's a lot of different reasons why people experience hair thinning, but when it comes to menopause, it is a very common symptom.

20:03So, you know, when it comes to like kind of testing across different life stages, like what are, what does Nutrafol's take on that? And how do you see that in terms of just the overall data that you guys are able to present? This is what I love about it too, is that, you know, you're not the same person you were in your twenties as you grow older and you go through different life stages, specifically women, you know, more related to, to, to reproductive health, et cetera. So thinking about a woman before she has kids, postpartum, menopausal, and also, you know, based on diet. So our vegan is also a formula.

20:39So we try to have formulas that really address root causes. Again, the root cause are going to be very similar, but maybe push a little harder, depending on where you are in your life, including menopause, for example. And ironically, you know, as our menopause data came out, I was going, I realized I was like myself in, in, in, um, on zoom calls and realizing, Oh my God, this is happening to me. And I had no idea. So the fact that I'm an educated woman in this space, and I had no idea this would happen to me just goes to show how much work we have to do to educate and what we can do about it.

21:11So it was very ironic, that I was living through menopause, still am, as I go through this and noticing the hair changing. And I was like, oh, thank God we have something, right? Or I understand why. And it's not something that I'm doing to myself. This is actually a symptom of. And being part of developing products that are specifically tailored for women throughout their lives, I think is so important, not only because we identify those life stages as unique, but also we care about women's health and we're studying women which is again another thing that's different um you know historically women are not as studied as much as men so the fact that we're investing again in studies for women to see results in women to me is also very important at again the different stages and i i don't think i can tell you how hard it is to study postpartum women because getting women who's just had a baby come in to evaluate their hair.

22:07Yeah, it was so hard. But again, I mean, I love the challenge because it hasn't been done. But just because it hasn't been done doesn't mean it's not doable. Again, you know, talking about menopause is a big thing because women were not wanting to. And now all of a sudden it is blown up and women are just, you know, talking about it constantly, which is so phenomenal because we also are saying this needs to change and what are solutions that we can take. So the holistic approach, not only from a body perspective, but also from a lifespan perspective to me is just, is really genius. And it sets us apart because we know that the ingredients you're going to need postpartum are not the same as when you're going through menopause.

22:48So I applaud them for having that forward thinking, you know? Absolutely. No, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. I think that that's, it's so, so important, especially like you said, yeah, like now, I mean, finally we're talking about this, you know, and it's like menopause. I mean, I can't even tell you, I've had this conversation with people, you know, on the show before where it's like, you know, I remember going to and sitting in medical school classes, right? And we didn't even have a single lecture on menopause. Like the medical community even is catching up with this, even though every woman goes through it.

23:21And I feel like with hair health, especially, that's one of the biggest things that women experience is this, you know, change in the way your hair looks and feels and, you know, and so much is tied to that. So the fact that we're not addressing that or we haven't been addressing it is baffling to me. I think that I was I was talking to a colleague the other day and we're talking about how there are certain vitamins like you don't end up realizing that your body no longer is even absorbing them anymore going through menopause. So it's like there's multiple things going on. You know, it's a huge topic.

23:51It's such a huge topic. And you're so right. And you know, I'm there every time I feel like, and I actually, because this was so important to me going through it, I became a certified menopause coach, just to be able to learn because I'm like, where am I going to learn this? And, you know, there's so much I can read, etc. So I think I want to be an expert in understanding what's going on for women, and myself included, and also to be able to know what, what would they need? We know, I know I needed this, but everyone's is so different to when they go through menopause, like the, the, um, the symptoms are going to be different because everyone's different and there's estrogen and progesterone receptors all over your body.

24:26So, you know, your itchy ears may affect one person more than another or vertigo or like all these things that you've had no idea. But what I love about, um, the, the, the balance formula that we have, you know, the funny story behind it is we first came out, NutriFol first came out with a men and a women's formula. And the big difference between the two is there was more saw palmetto in the men's version, a little more hormonal support for men to help with the conversion of from testosterone to to stop it. Right. So dermatologists were giving men's formula to women in their forties saying, this will have more self-palmetto be better for you.

25:04So we could have just stopped there and just slapped a, you know, this one's for menopausal women, you know, with the men's formula, but we reformulated with the right amount of self-palmetto, but also added more ingredients specifically for women who are going through menopause. So it's, it wasn't just like, Oh, you know, here, just take the leftovers. That'll be good enough for you. It was like, no, let's develop a product actually meant for you, which now I feel like it's taken for granted, but even like five years ago, no one, no one was doing this. And so I just, I, it's, it's, it's really focusing on who your client is and who your customer is going to be and what do you develop for them.