The Science of Sweat And Skin Balance With Surface Deep

28:29There are other parts of our body other than underarms. So I love that trend. What I don't love is potentially using more chemicals on more parts of our body and more perfumes and more everything. That I'm not so excited about. Being a dermatologist, I see a lot of contact dermatitis. I see a lot of dermatitis, eczema type dermatitis. I see, oh gosh, you name it. I've seen it in those 30 years of my practice. So I love the idea that we're taking, you know, deodorant out of a closet, so to speak, and like it's more mainstream and we can use deodorant in different places, but let's not overdo it.

29:03So I came up with this sort of little tag thing, a tagline of stinky seven, because there's really about seven places on the body that tend to produce odor and they do correlate with the microbiome. So there are these places where these odor producing bacteria tend to flourish when things go out of balance. So they would include the scalp, the scalp, and I sort of include in that the back of the ears. That's one, the underarms, the area between and under breasts. And that's not just women, it could be men too. Then it also includes the belly button, or the umbilicus, as we call in medical terminology.

29:39It also involves the abdominal fold. So the abdominal fold and, you know, where we, the abdominal fold and the thigh fold are areas that we are covered all day long. They retain moisture. And lastly, feet and between toes. So they're very distinct places. Now, I don't think we need to put deodorant on our knees, our ankles, you know, because we just don't need to. These are not odor, you know, potential places. So I think the pendulum has swung from just underarms to let's do it all over the body. I'd like to bring the pendulum straight in the middle and advise people to just use these products in those areas.

30:17And again, it goes back to places on the body that tend to harbor moisture. Now, I also said earlier that sweat's not the issue. So why am I harping on these places that tend to be moist? Because they tend to be moist, not just from sweat, they're moist for other reasons, such as like oils and sebum. But it's not just the moisture. When we sweat, the sweat tends to just evaporate off our skin. But in certain places of the skin, And, you know, if we're wearing gym wear, you have underwear and then you have some maybe occlusive spandex or some sort of yoga pants or tight bike shorts. And you're wearing those for hours and hours.

30:53It occludes the moisture. So that moisture just sets up home. It stays warm and it invites those bacteria by when the pH starts to rise. So it's so I know I'm talking about I'm talking about things that sound like I'm contradicting, but moisture is one thing. But just free flowing sweat is entirely another. And it has to do. if you think about when you have a wet towel, you don't throw it in a pile on the floor, typically, because when you do you in a couple hours or the next day, it's going to smell very musty. We hang up a towel. Same thing with body parts. When they're damp, they need to be aired out.

31:26And if you don't air them out, they tend to invite bacteria or yeast and other organisms or other microbes. So that's where it's at. So those are the stinky seven. So, So but I again, I don't find elbows, knees, you know, places that are dry skin areas. They don't need the whole body deodorant. That makes sense. Wow. I've never even thought of it like that. That's fascinating. And, you know, if we if we really understand where odor comes from, I think a lot of times we can cut down on so much. You had brought up fragrance earlier. And I loved what you said, because with fragrance products, obviously, we're trying to like, you know, smell very nice and whatever it might be.

32:02But a lot of times, yeah, we're masking odor. but at the same time I always you know what I wonder is like all this fragrance especially now with everybody being on like what perfume talk and stuff you know like perfume tiktok we have like 80 fragrances that we're putting on layering on it just makes you wonder like what is that the actual chemicals and fragrance like what are they actually doing to the microbiome right on the skin or wherever we're applying them and how is that leading to downstream effects that might affect things like odor production, right? I mean, that's, that's a topic of, you know, interest for me in that way, because everything, you know, reacts, no matter what you put on your skin, everything is going to have some sort of downstream effect.

32:41So what are your thoughts on that? Again, I love good smelling things. I, I would be lying if I didn't, if I said I don't have fragrant, fragrant candles or fragrant products. Yes. But what happens is they, most fragrances are are in an alcohol solution so things that you spray on or things that get added into products are uh solubilized in alcohol alcohol tends to be very very drying so that's problem number one with many fragrances problem number two is that there are for example there's this um chemical called balsam of peru and it's uh it's a base it's a base um fragrance that's put into a lot of different products.

33:23And dermatologists know that term very well because we do what's called patch testing to see what people are allergic to when it comes to contact dermatitis. And Balsam of Peru, and there's also something called fragrance mix. And that's one of the panels that we test for when we do patch testing, and they can very easily come up positive. So not only does that alcohol dry the skin, but in some people, it's not the majority, but a large, a large number of people will get fragrance allergy. Now add to that, if you're, let's say you're shaving your underarms, you waxed your underarms, you had laser on your underarms, you just came back from a volleyball match and your underarms have been rubbing, you're a baseball player and there's a lot of friction.

34:05Well, you've got friction there and then you go put on something that's got perfume on it. Ouch. You've broken down the skin barrier function by the friction and now you're adding something with alcohol in it. Oh my gosh. So yeah. So that's where it comes from. But, um, I think it's, I think it's fair game. I love fragrance and you, you spray it on your, um, perhaps your, your clothing or you, you know, you just, I don't want it in direct contact on the skin all day, especially in those intertriginous areas. I find that it, and I've seen it in my own practice that it can lead to irritation and allergy.

34:37Makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. You know, I'm, I'm always fascinated by how we treat, you know, when it comes to like how we treat our body's skin because it's very very fascinating to see people talk about you know especially like exfoliants and and whatnot because we're not talking about the same concentration i'd love for you to talk about this a little bit is you know when it comes to certain like thinner areas of skin right whether it's the face or the eyes we don't want to put things like you know any acids or actives around that area because we're you know worried about inflammation and all those things, but what are the things we should know about the actives and the ability of the skin to handle certain concentrations when it comes to the body, the different areas of the body?

35:19Yeah. So different parts of the body, you name them like eyelids or these thin skin areas, genital skin. First of all, they're very vascular. So lips, I mean, the lips are pink because they're vascular. There's a lot of blood flow. So a lot of blood flow means that it can absorb things. These are also thinner skin areas. So the skin does an incredible job of being the perimeter and protecting us. It's the interface between us and the outside world. And it does an incredible job of fighting invasion of microbes. It does an incredible job of keeping moisture in and keeping dryness out. So it does all those things.

35:55But on thinner skin areas, you do have to be careful. And I myself, I'm a retinol person. I will use retinol or retinal versions of retinol on my skin at night. I never, ever put it around my eye area. I don't put it on my neck either. Here's why. Because the skin, one of the things about the skin is that there are different levels of sebaceous glands. Sebaceous glands produce oils for the skin. We know sebum is not our friend when we're teenagers and we have acne. We think of sebum as the bad guy, but sebum is actually quite lubricating and keeps the skin protected. There are places on the face and body where there's, like, for example, the neck.

36:38The neck does not have a high level, a high concentration of sebum. So when something drying gets put on the neck, the sebum cannot really help offset that. So these thinner skin areas like neck, underarms, breast skin, the eyelid skin, the lips, you just have to really think twice. And there are, you want to be careful. Like if you're using something acidic, the concentration has to be way lower. Like when we do chemical peels with glycolic acid, we do chemical peels with 20%. But I wouldn't put anywhere near that around my eye area. So these are, you know, delicate areas and the skin does do a beautiful job of protecting us, but it has its limits.

37:18The eyes also, if you think about eyes in particular, they get exposed to a lot, you know, smoke, sunlight, you know, they're like a sensitive. another sensor skin area, let's call it, you know, our underarms, they're covered, but eyes are not covered. I mean, unless you're wearing goggles all day, they get smoke in there. You get smoke in your eyes. You can get moisture in your eyes. Something gets sprayed. It can aerosolize and get in your eye area. So the eyes are terribly delicate. They have a mucosa, and mucosa means that there's a moist junction there. And that moist junction means that it has lots of blood vessels and it can cause, you know, things can get into the body.

37:56So these are the areas that, so think of places where there's a moist interface and also areas where the skin is thin and also where the skin is more pink or more pigmented, because those are areas where usually there's more blood flow and that can spell sensitivity. That makes sense. Now, I want to ask you about menopause, you know, because, and perimenopause, because this isn't a topic that we're, we don't have enough information, you know, at all in general, but especially when it comes to like body odor and understanding how the skin changes with time and especially with all the hormonal fluctuations that are going on, is there an impact on body odor and, you know, the amount of like sweat that we're producing or anything that you can kind of educate us on there?

38:41Yes, there's definitely some learnings one can take from menopause and how it affects our body odor. So there's a couple of levels. One being that, let's just start with hot flashes. So hot flashes, which are called vasomotor symptoms, hot flashes, the medical term, but hot flashes, you know, are just the worst, you know, the worst, one of the worst symptoms that women experience going through menopause. Now those hot flashes mean that your body temperature is equivocating and to offset that, our body, our thermostat, it might be a little bit overactive in menopause, but it's, you're sweating.

39:19So there's a great deal of sweating. But as we said earlier, that the sweat itself is not the culprit. So hot flashes in and of themselves are not going to make body odor really a problem. If you don't keep wet clothes on, and maybe you need to change your, your night clothes and you sweat, you sweat at night. So it's a matter of, again, keeping the airflow good, wearing loose fitting clothing. Um, so it's just not the sweat, but hot flashes, if you have the hot flashes and you're at work all day and you don't have time to change your clothing, yeah, maybe if that sweat is retained and the moisture is retained and the skin folds, it could be odorous.

39:52So hot flashes are sort of a plus minus, could or maybe not. But one for sure change is as we age both sexes, as we age, the pH tends to creep up. So we said earlier that the pH, the acid mantle of about 5.5, 5.7 is protective. But as we age, I don't think there's any real clear cut knowledge why, but the pH tends to creep up. So just by virtue of aging, our pH can rise with age. And that again means that with that higher pH, that there is more potential for odor causing bacteria or yeast organisms to find their way onto the skin and go through chemical reactions that create an odor compound. out.

40:40So that's, so we're back to that bacteria again. So pH is one aspect. Another interesting aspect is that with age, again, both men and women are, believe this or not, we, our olfactory system can change. So our, we sometimes might think we're having odor, but actually we're not. We learned during COVID, you know, people lost their sense of smell with COVID. And then when they regained their sense of smell, they had these odd, they complained of smelling strange things. the olfactory system is a dynamic system and it goes through changes too. So with age, a person going through menopause may be afraid that they're having body odor and they might not actually have body odor.

41:20So there's, there could be a little bit of a disconnect between what's actual and what you're perceiving. So that's an interesting characteristic. So these are some of the, but for sure there within menopause, if you go with those same principles, like, okay, I'm going to protect my skin. I'm not going to use alkaline products. I want my pH to be at a nice neutral, well, neutral for skin being 5.5. It's sort of a happy set point. But by the way, I want to share something for those who are listening that many people adhere to an alkaline diet and they have heard and learned and adhere to, well, my insides need to be alkaline and people drink alkaline water.

42:00And that is not untrue. That's a thing. Your insides tend to be a little bit higher pH, whereas the skin, the outsides are that 5.5. So I just wanted to make that clear that I'm very aware that it's sort of like the insides are one and the outsides are another and that balance. But yeah, so if those going through hot flashes or going through menopause, find that they are suffering from, and it can, there can be an uptick. There's no question it can get worse because of the pH and perhaps even change in the microbiome. if you just adhere to those principles of taking care of your skin, keeping it in balance, drinking plenty of water to offset, you know, if you're sweating a lot and you're losing a lot of fluids, drinking plenty of water, and doing just those same principles.

42:47So whether you're a teenager going through hormonal changes, and when you're a teen and you're going through puberty, those apricrine glands wake up. And so it's another set of, there's another set of sweat glands that are producing, and apricrine glands tend to have more potential for causing odor by that bacteria. The bacteria love the abacum gland secretions even more than the eccrine gland secretions. So whether you're a teenager going through hormonal changes or you're a woman going through menopause, no matter what, though, you can see some, some wackiness there where the hormones do have an impact.

43:17So you're not imagining it, but it's easy to tackle. That's very fascinating. That's very fascinating. I, yeah, because it makes no sense, right? With understanding like how it all changes and menopause, no one really discusses that. That's why I asked you because everyone's going through hot flashes. You're definitely sweating more and, you know, just being able to understand what that's, what that is and how to tackle that. I think so important for so many women out there, but I would love to talk more about, you know, the brand and understanding like the clinical studies, cause you've done some great studies around this and I'd love for you to kind of dive into that and explain to us like what you saw and, you know, some of the hallmark.

43:55Yeah, there's two things I'll shout out with regards to that. So we did, but when the product was launched, we did consumer testing. So consumer testing is when you, there's their companies that do these tests and they hire people and they, it's like a consumer perception test. Did you like this? What do you rate it? Like that sort of thing. That's one type of testing. And we did that and we had great, great results. Well into the 90%, had no odor all day. This was when these wipes were first launched. 100 % reported no odor. 100 % said no irritation. And back to the glycolic is deodorant. And people were worried about, none of the participants had irritation.

44:35So we're so proud of that. An interesting finding in our consumer study was that people noticed that they didn't get yellow underarm stains in their clothing. Because one of the things, if you wear a white t-shirt or you wear white shirts, with using especially antiperspirant, the combination of antiperspirant and sweat can leave yellow marks. I've thrown out many a white t-shirt in my day because they get those yellow marks. So that was something we didn't realize. And it was a nice little finding. What we then did just recently, we did a full-blown clinical study, like a double blind placebo controlled study of one of our other products, which is our spray, which has the same formulation.

45:13The product is the same. The delivery system is a mist. It's not aerosol, it's a mist. And we did a study with that, again, with incredible results, the far majority of the participants, and this was a medical study, this was with a not me, I would be biased, probably, but no, it wasn't me, it was an unbiased doctor who judged odor. I was happy that the results turned out how they did, but it was not me. But it was a medical study. And people should be aware of what's the difference between clinical study and consumer study, that's very important to be aware of. But this is a clinical study that did very well, and also no irritation.

45:46And that no irritation thing is so, so enormous for me because, again, I want to put out a great product and I want people to, I want to improve their lives, not worsen it with causing irritation. So that was that study. And then I did a study that I'm going to, I'm going to expand more on and do, do in a different, more controlled way is a colleague of mine, female colleague who her specialty is mammography. And she, I went to her and I said, you know, here's the thing. We women are told when we get a mammogram that we're not supposed to wear deodorant antiperspirant. In fact, don't even bother putting on body lotion.

46:24That's always driven home. Do not put these products on. And if you really understand why, the reason is that when it comes to mammography, they're looking for changes in the breast tissue. But on the screen itself, if you are wearing, let's say antiperspirant that has aluminum, which is a metal, It's a pulverized little metal, metal spicules. Those metal spicules can leave what's called sort of like a variable. It's like it's a phantom thing. It's not supposed to be there, but it can leave these little residue particles on the mammogram. And that can be confusing. The radiologist might have to do more studies or ask you to come back and have it done again because it can be confusing because what they're looking for oftentimes when it comes to mammograms are calcifications.

47:10so the aluminum crystals can mimic the appearance of calcifications so that is why you're told not to wear those those products and that and you can find those things in powders you can find them in some lotions um even like baking soda will do it so if you wear a natural deodorant that has baking soda crystals same problem so what i did out of curiosity i said gee i wonder how surface deep measures up so i went to now this was just i went one so i didn't do it this is not a formal study It's just an anecdotal observation. But I went to my friend's place of business where she does her radiological studies.

47:47And we applied the different formulations of surface heat, the mist, the wipes. We applied it to what's called the phantom. There's a phantom, which is a glass template that they use to calibrate the machines. And it sort of mimics breast tissue, but it's just, it's not. So I didn't do this on a human being. This was done on what's called a phantom. So we applied both products and they looked at it with the through the mammography and there was absolutely nothing. You could not tell that any of the product was on there. There was not any residue at all. So I felt very gratified by that, knowing that not only does the product not feel like it's leaving residue, not only does it not look like it's leaving residue, but microscopically, it's also not.

48:29And radiologically, it leaves no residue. So I really want to go and do that study to a more rigorous degree. So it's more anecdotal, but it does point to the fact that some of the things that we're putting on our skin, especially if you're going to have some testing done, you may want to think twice about what you're putting on your skin. That makes sense. Wow. That's really fascinating, though, that you were able to find that and look at this from this perspective. Because I think that when it comes to understanding what leaves residue, we don't know what leaves residue, in my opinion. Because we're putting on deodorant constantly.

49:01Like if you go day in and day out, right, whether it's reapplying or like even if you after you take a shower, I mean, how much time do you really spend washing it off? Right. I mean, that's like a it's a big thing. I've always been curious about that because when the whole buzz came out about, you know, anti-aluminum, anti all of these ingredients, it made you wonder. It's like, well, how long are you leaving this on your skin? Right. It's like that's what came to mind for me. I mean, it wasn't so much like let me do fear mongering around the ingredients. It was more like, OK, no, I don't understand if people are leaving this on for 48 hours, that's going to have a reaction, you know, and it's going to cause downstream effects.

49:37What are your thoughts on aluminum specifically? I mean, I'd love to learn. Yeah. Well, I've done a very, very deep dive on aluminum. I don't want to. So again, with your suffering from hyperhidrosis, one of the first things that's the excessive sweating, one of the first things a dermatologist will suggest is prescription is actually prescription antiperspirants and prescription antiperspirants have higher concentrations of something called aluminum chloride. Aluminum chloride is in prescription strength antiperspirants. And that's a thing. So it saves people, you know, it really, it changes people's lives.

50:10So that's one aspect. But aluminum in general, it's, there is, again, there's like two sides of this. I don't know even where I stand. I avoid it. And when I told you back on my origin story about finding the product and forgetting my original deodorant and that I was using this natural, I've given up aluminum decades ago because I just felt like it's an extra chemical I don't need. The controversy is whether or not it can lead to such conditions as they've talked about Alzheimer's, they've talked about breast cancer. And I say they, there are reports. So what is out, and I've done a lot of study.

50:46I looked at this on, you know, American Cancer Society website. I've looked at it. So there's no cause and effect. It has not been a cause and effect link between applying aluminum containing products and things like breast cancer or Alzheimer's, what they have found is that they've noted that aluminum can accumulate in breast tissue. So it accumulates there. And that I think is well known, but there's just not a cause and effect like did this aluminum lead to the breast cancer? It's not been proven. There is something to be said. If you have kidney disease, if you have renal disease, it's advised that you do not, because at the end of the day, the aluminum will make it put on your skin.

51:31But when it gets absorbed into your bloodstream, into your tissues, it's actually metabolized and excreted through your renal system, through your kidneys and your urine. So if you have kidney disease, doctors will advise you to stay away from aluminum products. But other than that, I think of it as this, this is where I, so I gave you the medical and the scientific, but my personal is that I just avoid chemicals I don't need. So I just simply don't need it. I don't mind going to the gym and being, you know, damp when I leave the gym. So I stay, I've stayed away from it for decades. It's a lifesaver for some people, but if you can avoid it, hey, avoid it.

52:05I avoid sulfates in my shampoo. I avoid, you know, things I just don't need to have. I just stay away from them. So that's how, but there's no, there's not been a cause and effect link. I think of it back with that with the talc story. You know, talc was, you know, for so long, it does a cause problem. And if I understand correctly, I think Johnson and Johnson paid an enormous lawsuit for, I'm really, I didn't study this very strongly, this talc, but I don't know, again, I don't know if there's a cause and effect with that. But if it's something I can avoid, hey, I'm going to avoid it if I don't need it.

52:38Right. No, it makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I think that, you know, it's a lot of fear mongering too, right out here, like about every single ingredient it nowadays. I mean, at the end of the day, it's important for consumers to understand if you have anything in excess, you're going to have a reaction. That's just human physiology at work, you know, and it's really kind of annoying for me when brands use this for marketing, you know, and I've had this conversation before on the podcast where they're like, you know, it's like, okay, anti this, well, then that doesn't mean that it's safe for you.

53:08You know, it just it just means that they remove this and they're harping on this. So that's where I really want to educate our listeners, if you guys are looking for products, like don't look for those like crazy, you know, like marketing claims that people have on their packaging or something where it's like, well, because we removed this, you're good to go. You should be asking, what did you replace it with? Because that's really what I want to know. Such a good comment. I could not agree more. Let's talk about things that are called natural. You know, natural doesn't mean great. I mean, you know, poison ivy is natural and it gives you a rash.

53:40So natural is great. And we would love we love you know our products are plant-based you know we we we try to try to stay away from chemicals as much as possible but natural does not equate to always safe you know um but that's that's such a good point i'm so glad you brought that up so well absolutely i think it's it's just a matter of like you know consumers becoming educated and understanding we have to understand that like you know at the end of the day people are trying to sell a product so they're gonna sell it to you whatever is your fear you know they're gonna harp on that and we need to be aware of that so yeah I mean it's very fascinating but I love what you're doing though I really really enjoy the products I've been using them for a while um since you sent them to me and they're really good and so you know if anyone's really looking for an option like this is the best option that I've come across for you know a anti-odorant product that's actually going to not feel like it's a maintenance thing because I won't lie for me deodorant is like a love-hate relationship you know it's like I have to keep applying it and then it's like in the back of my head, I'm always thinking, well, I keep reapplying it, you know, so that layering thing is there for me in terms of safety.

54:44And it's just a headache, right? When you think about it. So no, I think it's really great what you're doing and all of the products hit very, you know, very strongly and they're very, very good. So I encourage everybody, check them out if you guys haven't already, but Dr. Salka, thank you so much. This has been so wonderful to learn from you and I learned so much. So the privilege has been all mine. It's been great speaking with you and I I learned so much from you right back at you. Thank you so much. Hey guys. So I hope you love that episode. Please make sure to hit subscribe. If you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform, we are available on so many different platforms.

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