Treating Skin from the Inside Out ft. BIOFOR

0:00Hey guys, welcome back to Skin Anarchy. Today we're having a very fun conversation because we never get to talk about the world of professional grade skincare skincare. much because it's usually you know kind of locked into the spas and the aesthetic clinics and stuff so we don't really get that behind the scenes look into truly professional grade products so with me today i have the ceo and founder of bio4 which is this amazing brand they're truly innovating the space of professional grade products so without further ado please welcome dr ronit seghav welcome dr ronit i'm so excited to host you yeah happy to be here with you yeah Yeah, I'm excited to dive in.

0:37You know, I know you have a lot of science in your background, you know, in your educational background. And I'd love to really dive into the moment that, you know, you decided to launch Bio4. I mean, what was that moment of frustration for you where you thought, I need to start something on my own? So the turning point for me was when I have noticed my first signs of aging at age 36. And, you know, it happens toward the end of my undergraduate degree in biology. in this point where all of our students are deliberating which direction to take for the master's. And for me, it became very clear.

1:11So biology for me is second career. My first career was I was a marketing manager with a degree in business administration. But you know, since I was a kid and very young, I was very passionate about biology. I love biology. I was always envious I've seen the scientists that develop drugs and solutions to physical problems. I always wanted to be in this place. So at the age of 32, I took myself back again to the university and signed to the first degree in biology. And when I saw my first signs of aging, I was really frustrated. This was the frustration. I wasn't willing to accept them. And this is when I knew what I want to do further, what I want to explore.

1:57I wanted to explore skin aging, all the ingredients involved in fixing the signs of aging, all the methods, why skin aging, what are the processes inside. And I wanted to develop solutions to, you know, to slow down the signs of aging, to treat aging skin, to let us have even attractive skin at any age. and I wanted to develop solutions I knew those have to be very powerful and very targeted solutions quick and that can deliver fast and visible results and this kind of product should be very concentrated and cannot be offered on stores or on the shelf can be shelf products they should be offered by professionals and after skin analysis and understanding the skin and tailoring the product to the customer and monitoring the skin and being available in case of side effects, which we do have.

2:57We have side effects. So such kind of product cannot be picked from the shelf, at least not if you want to really get a change in the skin. And that's what and how and why I launched Bioform, a professional skincare brand that works through professionals. else. That's really interesting because, you know, you started with biology. I think that's very fascinating to me that you have this very deep rooted understanding of the biology that goes into understanding skin, you know, and what really is anti-aging? What does it mean to have beautiful, healthy skin? I think many times founders don't come with this understanding, you know, so it's very, very interesting to me.

3:37You know, what was that true foundation for you that you wanted to build the brand on? I know you mentioned the ingredients, but like, what was that key foundation that you said, this is where I want to base my products off of? You know, I entered the market with a purpose to deliver powerful, effective solutions for skin concerns. So it's a mission and it's not just a product line. And, you know, it began with my personal interest to treat aging skin, but I knew I'm going to serve cosmetologists and and estheticians. And they treat not only signs of aging, but also, you know, acne and pigmentation and texture problems.

4:18And so dug deep in those topics because they're important as well. And they're very interesting, very fascinating. They diminish the quality of life. I was intending to learn them, study them deeply, and come up with solutions for all kinds of skin concerns. And the thing is, when you want to solve a skin issue, you have to understand skin. You have to understand what went wrong. You can't start with a line. You have to start with understanding of the physiology and pathology and the behavior of the skin and skin processes. Anything you want to fix. If the mechanic wants to fix the car, you have to understand what went wrong.

4:58And only then can you fix the car. And if the doctor wants to deal with a kidney disease, you have to know how the kidneys function and what can be wrong. And the skin is no different. It's an organ. It's a complex, very complicated organ. And every change that you see on the outside is rooted in changes in the inside, in the behavior, in the structure, and in processes in the skin. You have to understand them. And in order for you to be able to plan a product that can change the skin, this product should be based on a deep understanding of biology. And not just the product, but the way of delivering the product and treat it with the product.

5:42This has to be based on knowledge in the biology of the skin. That's why BioFore didn't start with the usual checklist, day cream, night cream, serum, lotion, mask, and so on. This wasn't the vision. The goal was to create targeted solution that can fix skin concern, and they can come in any form. They can come in as a cream or as the serum, whatever with the carrier or the vest vehicle to deliver the actives inside the skin and change it. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, actually, and I agree with everything you said. I think that because we know that the skin is an organ, we understand that there's a very dynamic organ.

6:25And, you know, that is something that, you know, oftentimes we don't see that addressed in a lot of skincare brands. You know, that's the truth. A lot of times people are not approaching it from this understanding that, you know, you have to understand how the skin turns over, you know, what's going on to make it, you know, people say, oh, I want glowing skin. Well, what does that mean? You know, in a scientific way, what does glowing skin means so i think it's very relevant what you pointed out here you know and i want to actually do some myth busting if you don't mind you know there's a lot of misinformation i think also there's this widespread belief that serums are the most active product right that you can have in a skincare line you know more so than things like creams and and other things so what is the actual truth about this i mean is that true is that false how does that work yes i come across this myth a lot not only with the end user but even with many many professionals it's very common so i think it may come from uh the these incorrect information that they get in their their initial training the cosmeticians so yeah but when i discuss with them with the professionals and we go deep in their deep beliefs on about serums and we break it down and and see one by one, all the thoughts that they adopted without checking and all the other people thought that they believed to without asking themselves, is this logic?

7:52Can this be true? So when we look at it, we see the simple truth that it's far from the compelling beliefs that they have. So let's just do the process. So I ask cosmeticians, what's the difference between a cream and a serum? And I get several answers. They tell me serums are more active. Serums are more concentrated. Serum contains smaller molecules. Serums help bigger molecules to penetrate the skin. And so we try to break it down one by one. I ask them, who decides which ingredient and in what concentration to put in a serum? So the answer, the manufacturer, correct? And if I, the manufacturer, decide to make a cream with 3 % matrix cell, which is a biomimetic peptide, and also a serum with 3 % matrix cell, those are the only active ingredients, just matrix cell in the serum and in the cream.

8:52So would the serum with matrix cell be more active than the cream? Would it be more concentrated than the cream? would the matrix molecule be smaller because it's in the serum? So it's not. And we have to remember creams, serum, gels, those are carrier. They are meant to carry active ingredients inside the skin. If I would blend a serum with, let's say, 5 % and 3 % niacinamide, those green-teams niacinamide are meant to kind of leave the serum and enter the skin. Again, not all the other 40 ingredients, the emollients and the emulsifiers and the perfume and, you know, emectants and so on. Just the active ingredients.

9:39The same way if I would plant a cream with this niacinamide and green tea, it wouldn't be less effective. Those are the same actives. The manufacturer can choose any ingredients and put them in cream and in the serum as well. and they will be active as well. It's not that the serum will be more active. And another thing, it's not that the serum can help big molecules penetrate the skin. If the molecule is too big and it cannot inherently penetrate the skin, it will penetrate the skin because it's in the serum. The serum doesn't make tiny holes in the skin or ingredient that they push the big molecules with little tiny ropes into the skin.

10:28There's no such ingredients. And even if there were, couldn't we put them in a cream? So actually, the only argument we cannot argue with is that the serum is more liquid and the cream is more creamy. The consistency is thicker, less liquid. No, that's really, that's really interesting, because I think that's something that no one really discusses, right? It's this idea of like, we're really buying whatever texture we prefer, you know, in the product. It's not really about exactly what you said. It's not about really, is it more active or not. And I think a lot of times users don't, I mean, consumers, everybody doesn't really associate this, because in our minds, we think, okay, the serum goes on first, you know what I mean?

11:17So it's like they think, oh, it goes on first. So it must be the most active. And it's not true. You're right. You know, it really depends on what's in the serum. So, you know, with that, I wanted to congratulate you. You just won the gold award for a skin renewal serum that Bio4 has. Congratulations on that. When is the, you know, let's really debunk this. So, like, when is the real right time to incorporate serums into our skincare routine? Yeah, actually, this year we won three golden awards. One of them is for a serum called ProLift to rejuvenate the skin. And for your question, actually, you can triple your question because Bio4 has three serums, not just one.

12:03So that's the first question that the cosmetologist or cosmeticians asked me after we finished debunking the serum myth. So why do you have C serum, they asked me. We have serum vitamin C. So the answer is for your question, you introduce a serum whenever the skin needs an ingredient or one ingredient or more and this ingredient is included in a serum. So let's take for example vitamin C. When do we think the skin needs vitamin C? We the professionals. Whenever for example this is a smoker skin or the skin is exposed to free radicals or or to stress or whenever this is dehydrated skin or whenever we want to boost collagen production all of those treatment goals indicate that we can give a vitamin c to improve the skin so yeah we could give vitamin c cream as well and it would do the same job by the way but many times the client already have moisturizer a lot of them have and you know it doesn't sound so natural for a client to apply a cream on top of a cream.

13:14You know, it sounds strange, but when it's a serum, it sounds natural. You know, everybody loves serum, the cosmetician, the client, everybody loves the serum and it's very natural to apply a serum beneath the cream. So we didn't just sell another product or we didn't just give automatically serum because every woman needs a serum. We gave the solution. We gave an ingredient that the skin needed based on skin analysis in understanding the needs of the skin for us it's a smart recommendation it's not just the consistency yeah that makes a lot of sense i think this idea of like ingredient ingredient like synergy right because that's where i think a lot of people get confused is that you know we we are so tied to this ritual of skincare you know people say you know i need to do these steps and this routine otherwise i'm not going to get the benefits and i've said this before on the podcast where I say, I like to think of it like we have skin cells, like in a Petri dish, and whatever you're putting on top of that is the treatment, right, for those cells.

14:18So it's just like that. And it's the same understanding I think that consumers need to have is that your cells are being exposed no matter what, you know, whether it's a serum, a cream, a toner, you're getting exposed to whatever active is there. And it's up to you to decide what am I going to pair, you know, together in terms of ingredients. And that's, I think that's where a lot of people get lost in that whole conversation, right? It's like, we are so tied to this cultural understanding of this is how skincare routines are supposed to be, you know, one, two, three, four, five, but it's not the case.

14:51Yeah. So I want to talk about this idea of, you know, ingredients, infusion, and understanding like, you know, what ingredients are safe to use through things like microneedling, you know, microneedling and ultrasound. Let's talk about that a little bit, ingredient infusion, if you could educate us yeah so this idea as you know as you all know really sparks the imagination of skin therapists and clinicians infusing of ingredients so basically we're speaking about treatment when we take cocktails or ampoules and infuse the ingredients via electroploration and ultrasound and maybe other device and this treatment is performed once in a month or once in three months, the manufacturers that produce these cocktails, they say those are very concentrated cocktails of vitamins and peptides and minerals.

15:46And so, and you know, many clinicians, many cosmeticians are very fascinated. They view them like the fountain of youth, the magical potion that we give to the skin and it wakes up and wakes up to life. I always looked at those, this kind of treatments and I didn't understand that. You know, I, as I come from science, I try to understand the clinical logic behind every treatment and I didn't find one. I did not find. And let me share with you the why. So first I want to remind something that many, maybe many clinicians do. You probably know it, but most of the ingredients inside this cocktail have therapeutic windows.

16:31This is the range of concentration within the ingredient works. Below that, we won't get the benefit. And above this therapeutic window, we won't get better results. We won't. Even in some cases, if we exceed the upper limit of the therapeutic window, we will get side effects. And even in peptides, for example, they have very narrow therapeutic window, if we exceed it, we get the opposite effect. So it's not the more the better. We should understand with active ingredients, it's not the more the better. It's the exact concentration that was established. So this is for the claim that the injections or the cocktails are very concentrated.

17:19And maybe now that we see them, we can deal with them. So many therapists look at the skin like they think the skin acts like a camel. You know, this camel that can drink a lot of water and in the desert, he can manage without water two months, three months. So only camels do that. Our skin doesn't function like this. We don't have in the skin a tiny storage unit with tiny storage guys that get all those vitamins and keep them and then slowly, slowly releases them every day according to the skin's needs. It doesn't happen like that. The skin doesn't work in intensive loading. It doesn't work like that.

18:05The skin, like the body, needs every day, over the day, the actives that are essential for healthy functioning. So that's the first thing. And another thing that I want to pull and take it to the daylight and look at it in the eye, the mistake that we do, we professionals do, between methods and goals, or means and goals. So we should have, every one of us professionals should have therapeutic goals. Therapeutic goals are, for example, even toned skin, skin without acne, cleared of pigmentation, firmer skin okay we define a therapeutic goals in means like of how the skin looks after the process so i ask the professionals is infusing ingredients is it a therapeutic goal yeah is it a therapeutic goal is it kind of appearance or maybe it's a method right so they give it a little thought and and they have to realize it's not a goal it's a method it surprises many of them by the way so as they see that it's not a goal but a method we must ask okay so what's the goal and here I can hear several goals like firmer skin and tighter skin and skin without pores or lesser pores or less pigmentation so I urge them to take every such goal and ask themselves about each one of them three questions question one let's take firming for example as the goal question one which ingredients can firm the skin in the cocktail they don't always know what what's inside the cocktail many times they don't know so let's think which ingredients can firm the skin so they they tell me vitamin A and vitamin C and biometric peptides.

20:08Okay. Question two, are they capable of penetrating the skin with simple application, daily application? So we have to admit that, yes, they can penetrate the skin. And question three, do you think really that once in a month or once in three months, if you apply these ingredients, can it firm the skin? and I will remind you there is no slow release and there's no meaning of high concentration could it happen so I strongly recommend every clinician to take all of the therapeutic goals that they expect to get from these infusions and honestly and strictly and very precisely ask themselves all of those questions and you know I promise that you will get very surprising answers yeah no i love that i love that you said that that is brilliant actually because you know this is something that nobody asks about skin nobody talks about this with the skin and it's very confusing to me right as well because when you it's exactly what you said when you're exposing your body no matter what organ it is to an extreme amount of something right whatever you're dealing with whether it's a pharmaceutical uh even vitamins right something like that you will put it into shock.

21:29It will go into shock state. Like the cells will react very aggressively to that. So it's very, very true what you're saying in that you have to understand how do cells respond? Does it matter in the overall, you know, in the overall goal that you have? And then also like just the physiology of what's going to happen later. You know, a lot of these treatments, like you said, people go for like once a month, right? They'll go to their esthetician, they'll go to wherever they go, with dermatologists and say, I want this once a month treatment. But then nobody's asking what happens after you, you know, for the next 29 days, what's going on with your skin?

22:04You know, are you, are you, you know, still kind of chasing that goal? Are you still meeting your goal at the end of the day? You're probably not, you know, because after you get that one thing done, you're not taking care of your skin or you're not, you know what I mean? Doing the everyday routine that you should be doing to maintain. And this is a very big topic, actually, you know, I mean, it applies to everybody across the board, not just in the professional world, but I think even the brands that are more towards the non-professional side, you have to ask yourself that, you know, it's like, what are you really selling to people at the end of the day?

22:35Are you selling a promise, like a, you know, a marketing gimmick, or is it really how the skin works? So I love that. I really love that you brought that up. I want to add another thing. All the information that we have on ingredients is gathered from studies that were conducted with applying the ingredients daily application uh sometimes twice a day and not injecting them so what do you think and and of course that we got the outcomes from applying the ingredients not from injecting so why did you think it should work on what on what basis right exactly that's very true yeah like nobody talks about that and this is actually very true You know, in terms of medicine and anything that has to do with the human body, like the modality through which you deliver ingredients, deliver drugs is the most important, I think.

23:28And it's really because your body has it's the most advanced machine that we know of. Right. So it's going to adapt. It has to go through its normal process to adapt. And we don't we completely bypass that by doing things that are kind of, I think, contradictory to normal physiology. You know, and so it really makes you wonder with all of the all of the treatments that are out there and all of the things that we as consumers are every day going for and opting in for. Do we understand what this is going to do? Like right now, I'll give you an example that's really perplexing for me. I'm seeing this huge buzz right right now in the PDRN, skin care and all of this stuff people are talking about.

24:06But then it's exactly what you said. You have trials people have done with injecting it. You have trials people have done with, you know, with topical, but then we're not using it like that as consumers. You know, we're using it in a totally different way. So it's really interesting that the world of beauty and skin health, like the data doesn't really often match the modality through which it's being practiced. You know, that using that same ingredient or that same treatment. It's very true. You know, it's across the board. So, yeah, very fascinating. I want to actually ask you, how do you define what an active skincare product is?

24:41What does that mean scientifically when somebody says this is active skincare? First, yeah, I rely only on scientific validation, deciding on an ingredient. I don't go with buzzwords or trends of the articles that follow the internet. Because we need to remember the skin is an organ. and when we want to treat an organ, this is science. And we have to collect the science. Now, you're asking, how do you decide what's your science? So, you know, when I check clinical studies papers, I always check who's behind it. Whether one of the authors works for this ingredients company, whether it is funded by a cosmetics company, any kind of conflict of interest.

25:30This is a term, as you know, conflict of interest. And any paper has to claim if there is a conflict of interest. So I try to rely only on papers and clinical studies that are objective. And this is how I assess ingredients. But, you know, having said that, the field of active ingredients is evolving super fast. I get dozens of emails every week about new ingredients. and I read them and you know I get with every new ingredients I get this dossier it's a pack of information with the lab tests and the internal studies that these manufacturers have done about these new ingredients and I read them and I try to understand the clinical logic behind the mechanism they claim and some of them sound interesting you know I apply my experience of course, I take all of it with a grain of salt.

26:30This is not so objective. But, you know, not every ingredient is glycolic acid or Q10 or centella sciatica. Not every ingredient will get a university-grade study. Most of them, most of the new one won't get. So I really try to understand this and ask myself whether I see here a potential. And whenever I do see a potential, based on my experience i ask them to get a sample and i make ice cream or test serum you know it's the same we spoke about that and i give to my test groups i have my test groups that experience those ingredients and give me feedbacks and i'm trying to understand what we're dealing with and whether this is really a potential that we can move forward with yeah that makes sense actually It's very fascinating that you said that because we never get to see much about the ingredients like, you know, the new and emerging ones till they're already out in the market, unfortunately, you know, so it's very, I think it's very important to do that sifting through of like understanding how do ingredients really work?

27:39because yeah it's not like academia right where we're testing like cancer drugs or something and you have so many papers and so many so much data it's often very lacking so I think it's yeah it's very interesting that you're doing your own kind of testing of these ingredients and figuring out does this actually work you know in the in actual use that's very cool so what do you see for like you know because via for I love your products by the way I want I never got to say this you know so far. I really love them. And I think that it shows how much, you know, precision you've taken with picking what is offered in the line.

28:15And I think that's very unique, you know, in today's world and the way that skincare is evolving, what I'm seeing every day is more brands are popping up and it's the same thing over and over and over. You know what I mean? Like it's the same stuff and no one's really focusing on exactly what we've discussed here, but this idea of precision skincare, you know, where they're really figuring out, this is what I need. This is how my skin will respond. This is what I expect to happen. No one's doing that. And so what is your viewpoint about the skincare industry? I mean, where do you see the future of skincare headed?

28:50Well, we have some trends and shifts in the market. One of them, the key evolution in the, we will have to embrace the rise of the lifespan, the life expectancy, the lifespan. And when we speak wellness, we say a health span. Health span is the youth that we live in good health. And I think we in the cosmetics industry should embrace the term beauty span. That's a new one. You won't find it in Google. I love that. Yeah. So beauty span is how long our skin can be heavy and cared for and vibrant. And we have to think about the older skin because this is an issue. And beyond the 50s and the 60s, we should care for the more aging skin, like the 70s and 80s, which they have very unique characteristics, the skin have.

29:46Not the usual menopausal skin of the 50s and the 60s. We have to find the ways, the treatments, the products that can be suited to this kind of skin. So this is one good way to go with. And another thing which is quite related is the field of senescent cells. I'm sure you've heard on that list term. Senescent cells or zombie cells. So they're all over the body, not just in our face. and they age the body. They linger, there are dysfunctional cells that linger in the body and accelerate the process of aging. And there are very promising studies that target those cells or their byproducts in order to slow down the aging from the inside out.

30:41So that's a fascinating topic that's in development. Also, we see a progress in carrying delivery systems of many kinds. One of them is microcapsules that can not only protect ingredients or stabilize them or prevent irritation, it happens, but also to deliver more of these ingredients in the skin. So it goes deeper, but also it utilizes most of the ingredients. So it allows us to put a lower concentration and still get results. That's very important, especially because this time we have a very strict regulation about ingredients. And another fascinating thing is genetic-based skin care. And with the test, you get the results.

31:33You get your skin genetic map. So they test genes that are related to skin's behavior and appearance. And I can share with you that Bio4 is building an AI-powered tool to help the end user as well as the cosmeticians. So at the end user part, they can upload very clear photos and add some details. And they will have a general recommendation to treat their skin. and also it will refer them to the nearest cosmetician and according to their location wow that's really fascinating i love that i've been watching ai and how much is transforming you know the world of especially like longevity and stuff that's very very novel for you to do this i think that we need we need this kind of thing because you're absolutely right in everything you said i've been you know also following along and genetics is the future you know if we can figure out like genetics epigenetics all these like you know blueprints that define how our skin ages and also how to kind of tailor and again that precision medicine component you know this is going to be completely game-changing very cool i agree wow well i'm very excited i love bio4 and i i think what you're doing is so so wonderful for the industry and you're really leading with science and i think that we don't see enough of that you know and i think for anyone listening out there, whether you're consumers or you're professionals in the skin health space, I think it's very important to ask yourself these questions of where does the science make sense?

33:13You know, where does it lead you in your understanding, in your practice? You know, and I think that's, it's something really valid. You know, everything we've discussed here is something to think about. So thank you so much, Dr. Ronit. This has been so wonderful to host you and to learn from you. It's been wonderful. My pleasure. Thank you. Thanks. hey guys so i hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform we are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because i love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.

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