In short
Post–Perth Ashes Test Q&A ahead of the day-night Test at the Gabba in Brisbane. They discuss why the Perth Test ended in two days despite a “very good” ICC pitch rating, England’s decision to skip a Canberra warm-up match, Australia team selection hints (Cummins 50-50; Hazelwood likely out), and how pink-ball conditions (twilight to night) affect batting and tactics. They also answer questions on Joe Root’s legacy, Khawaja’s future, and what “the essence of the Ashes” means.
Guests/backgrounds
Michael Atherton (former England captain, broadcaster/journalist) and “Nas” (Nasir Hussain; former England player, broadcaster). They reference other cricket figures but don’t add additional guests.
Key claims
Perth pitch was fine; England’s batting errors shortened the match. England shouldn’t panic/choose based on optics. Pink ball will swing more than in Perth. England must “hold nerve” and absorb pressure before attacking.
Notable examples
Crawley’s mental challenge after a pair; Travis Head as a possible opener in favorable conditions; Tiger Woods’ calm “risk-free” play as an analogy for seizing leads; specific Ashes memories like Gough’s final-hour effort in 1998 Adelaide.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOExcitement of the Ashes
0:00 to 0:32
The hosts discuss the thrilling moments of the recent Ashes Test match.
“Pat Cummins has led his team to a famous victory.”
Travel Tales and Test Match Reflections
0:54 to 3:04
Discussion about travel experiences and reflections on the Test match in Perth.
“You're getting in the preparation for the day-night test early.”
England's Performance and Fans' Experience
3:04 to 5:54
Analysis of England's performance and the experience of their fans at the Test match.
“more deflated after a Test match than you were.”
Evaluation of the Perth Pitch
5:54 to 7:30
Exploration of the characteristics of the Perth pitch and its impact on the Test match.
“Before we look ahead, It's just today it's been noted that the ICC rated that pitch as very good.”
Reflections on Test Match Cricket
7:30 to 9:10
Discussion on the state of Test match cricket and how it affects batting performances.
“And I think the headline was something like, Perth pitch rated very good, putrid poms batting under the spotlight, or something like that.”
England's Decision on Canberra
9:10 to 11:24
Debate on England's decision to skip Canberra and focus on Brisbane for practice.
“Do you think they should have gone to Canberra?”
Australia's Team News and Strategy
11:24 to 14:00
Discussion about the Australian team lineup and strategy for the upcoming Test match.
“and then you've only got Tuesday, Wednesday before the game.”
Crawley's Mental Challenge in the Ashes
14:00 to 20:41
Understand the mental pressures faced by cricketer Zach Crawley during the Ashes.
“because there's still a lot of cricket to play if things don't go well for them here in Brisbane.”
Insights on Pink Ball and Day-Night Tests
20:41 to 26:50
Explore the differences between pink and red balls and the impact on Test matches.
“Elliot Cook, what is the difference, apart from colour, between a pink ball and a red ball?”
Advice for Ben Stokes from Experience
27:24 to 28:00
Learn about the challenges of leading England in Australia and how to handle pressure.
“Right, we better get through these questions.”
Show all 19 chapters
The Challenge of the Australian Tour
28:00 to 30:00
Discussing the mental strength required for England cricketers on Australian tours.
“Well, as you say, Helen is a dedicated subscriber to the Times and watcher of the Sky Cricket podcast, and it's always a delight when she messages because she's got lots of interesting things to say.”
Learning from Mistakes and Key Moments
30:00 to 33:10
Analyzing England's inability to seize key moments and learn from past failures.
“You know, looking back, England fans and their anger, they're frustrated England aren't going to Canberra to play a two-day game.”
Joe Root's Legacy and Ashes Pressure
33:10 to 35:30
Exploring Joe Root's legacy and the pressure he faces in the current Ashes series.
“or have I got to do all the reading Have I got them?”
Memorable Moments in Ashes History
35:30 to 37:50
Recounting personal experiences and memorable moments from past Ashes tours.
“to bowling first because of Usain's decision at Brisbane or whatever.”
Australia's Team Dynamics and Selection Issues
37:50 to 39:40
Discussing current Australian players and their future in the team amidst selection concerns.
“That was the one you'll have seen, the famous one.”
Critique and Objectivity in Commentary
39:40 to 42:04
Addressing the challenges of maintaining objectivity while critiquing the England team.
“And not helped by the difficulties of his back spasms in the match at the Gabba.”
Navigating Relationships with Players
42:04 to 43:33
Explore the challenges of maintaining objectivity while commenting on players.
“But, you know, we're pretty distant from them now and therefore have that objectivity.”
The Balancing Act of Critique
43:33 to 45:29
Discuss the importance of empathy in sports commentary and critique.
“I mean, you know, on a social level, we know them as cricketers, but on a social level, I don't really know the current England team particularly well at all.”
The Essence of the Ashes
45:29 to 49:06
Understand what the Ashes represent in cricket and personal history.
“but you need to kind of remember the difficulties, I think, and just have that in the back of your mind.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00The last start, that is from Crawley. Chris Wokes nails it for four. The Ashes alive and Test cricket alive.
0:08Nasser Hussain:Ice in his veins. Pat Cummins has led his team to a famous victory.
0:17England's captain Ben Stokes, while he is there, England have hope. Put the beer away, put the champagne on ice. 24 years of pain in Australia. Finally, they're beaten at home by England. Welcome to the Sky Sports Cricket Podcast. It is Thursday here in Australia, two days remarkably after the Test match was supposed to finish. It feels like weeks ago that Test match did finish. I'm still in Perth because we're sponsored by the Western Australian Tourist Board. I've decided to stick with our sponsor and stick in Perth. Michael Atherton, you've made the journey across to Brisbane. You're getting in the preparation for the day-night test early.
1:01How is your journey? How's Brisbane?
1:03Nasser Hussain:Well, I'd forgotten how long the plane journey is, actually. I mean, it's four and a half hours right across Australia, obviously. So I left kind of one o 'clock or something Perth time, and it was about eight o 'clock when I got in, because it's about a two-hour time difference as well. You know, that just vast nothingness when you look out of the window of the plane and there's just nothing down below. Amazing. You forget how big this country is. It's quite a wild flight, actually. We came in late in the day and there are a lot of electric thunderstorms around Brisbane, so it was a bumpy flight.
1:44Nasser Hussain:I'm not sure Mark Wood would have enjoyed it or our old friend, Phil Toffnell. Orion Ward It had been a bit windy I think on the flight It was very up and down towards the end But it was only like 8 o 'clock at night of course and that's going to be right When the test match Is being played so I think we might I don't know what the forecast is ahead And it's quite a way away but it's It feels very much hotter, much more humid Than it was in Perth Which was a bit unseasonably cool actually Compared to what it's normally like there But it feels like the thunderstorms Are going to be bubbling up here at night.
2:19Nasser Hussain:So I wouldn't be surprised if there's some kind of weather interruptions. They've just had a day-nighter here, actually, at the Gabba. Queensland played Victoria, and it was a game that finished in three days. So that finished in good time as well. It wasn't a completely low-scoring game. Renshaw got 100, but the Seamers were in the wickets, and Queensland dusted up Victoria within three days. and the seamers were to the fore and got all the wickets. So I wouldn't be surprised to see another seam or swing dominated game here that finishes in good time, hopefully not in two days. Have you recovered, by the way?
3:03Because I read you in the Times and you said you have never been more deflated after a Test match than you were. I mean, I saw you in Antigua just as you resigned the captaincy. I saw you in Trinidad after 46 all out. And this was more deflating than those?
3:21Nasser Hussain:No, I was thinking of as a kind of spectator or a journalist or a broadcaster. Right. No, I mean, you can't compare when you played because you feel those losses deeply. And this, you know, we, both of us are English and former England players. We'd obviously, given the choice, prefer to see England win. But we also come to these things as broadcasters and journalists in a kind of neutral guise as well. You're judging the cricket in front of you from a cricketing standpoint. But I felt a bit deflated just because, well, for two reasons. One, because it felt so inconsequential. Two days, all that buildup, you know, weeks and weeks of chat and talk and blather and nonsense.
4:04Nasser Hussain:And then two days and it's all done and dusted. And I did feel for all the England supporters that came over, I don't know how many there were, probably about between six and eight thousand maybe. And of course, the day or two after the test match, you just kept bumping in to all these supporters wandering aimlessly around Perth trying to work out what to do. Rocknest Island, Margaret River, golf, whatever. and I felt for them because, you know, they'd have got refunds days three, four, five, but they'd come a long way to watch cricket and watch good cricket, competitive cricket, and it just felt, you know, a bit ridiculous that the game was over in two days.
4:46Nasser Hussain:So I was flat and deflated after that, and partly because, again, the England lunchtime on day two were bossing, and we felt that ought to have won, should have won, could have won, and then within two sessions had got beat. So it was a pretty deflating experience. God knows what that felt like in the dressing room. Well, most of those disgruntled England fans made it to Margaret River. I was down there. You said go to Vas Felix, the great vineyard. Did you make it to Vas Felix? I did. I had one of the great lunches of all time. The head man in charge of all the vines. There's a fancy word for it, but I can't remember what it is.
5:22Bart came and showed me around all over. My geology came to the fore. that the rocks needed to grow wine and everything. And then it was raining. It was drizzly. It was cold. These England fans turned up. And it was all my fault all of a sudden. So we had a great time in the Margaret River. Just before we look on to Brisbane, and we're going to do a Q &A, because we've got no cricket to talk about. England haven't played. Australia obviously haven't played. The Lions are not playing till the weekend. We are going to do a Q &A. We've asked for some questions to come in. Before we look ahead, It's just today it's been noted that the ICC rated that pitch as very good.
6:01It was its highest rating, the Perth pitch. I know you enjoyed the cricket, but how do you marry those two things together? A very good pitch, the sort of pitch the ICC want, but a test only lasting two days. Is that just modern cricket?
6:15Nasser Hussain:Well, I thought the pitch was a decent pitch. It had pace. It had carry. it had a little bit of help there on the first day for sure, but you expect that in a test match. And then there were signs it was flattening out. I mean, you're supposed to judge the pitch over how it plays over five days. And, you know, on that second day, lots of people were saying, well, this is going to go the same way as the India-Australia test, which was the year before. And obviously that was low scoring in the first innings. and then India got 450, didn't they, second time around, which England didn't manage to do.
6:55Nasser Hussain:But Travis had put that in perspective, albeit had a bit of a dip and took his chances. But Australia romped home in the end. So I didn't think it was a... I thought it was a good pitch. And what happens is with pace and bounce, it just tends to sort people out of it, doesn't it? Every mistake you get penalised for, every edge carries. and obviously England played some bad cricket in that afternoon session. Otherwise, you know, it would have gone well into day three and who knows what would have happened. So I have no problems with that pitch being marked good or very good. That's amused me. One headline on, I think it's one of the Australian websites, it's amazing how the kind of Aussie journos turn that story from, it's a pitch story, but they kind of turned it to just put the spotlight like back on England's batters.
7:45Nasser Hussain:And I think the headline was something like, Perth pitch rated very good, putrid poms batting under the spotlight, or something like that. So, yeah, I mean, I thought the pitch was fine. I didn't have any problems with that rating at all. What did you reckon? Yeah, I thought it was a good pitch. I mean, it got better, definitely, that day too. Everyone was saying, if you look at those India scores, it did. And Ricky Ponting said on day two, after T, this pitch will get better. And it did get a little bit better. It still wasn't flat. But I do think ball-dominating bat is slightly better. I just think it is a slight reflection of where batting is at the moment.
8:30You know, even in the – we've just had a – and we're going to come on to it. One of the questions about how well South Africa are playing the South Africa-India series. You know, that batting at times for India in particular, remarkably, on their home soil. Have you texted DK yet? I'm not. I saw him ranting in the back of a cab. I saw him doing something on Insta or something. Not that I'm on Insta, it just came on my feed. And he had like a 20-minute Bob Willis rant in the back of the cab about where India, India losing test matches at home. I mean, welcome to our world, Ad. So DK is not happy.
9:03The Indian public are not happy. It's just where Test Match cricket is at the moment. Let's get on to the subject, the talking point over the last two days. You have done what England have done. You've gone straight to Brisbane. You've not gone via Canberra. We've spoken about it in previous pods. Do you think that's the right thing? Do you think they should have gone to Canberra? Do you think any of them, if Zach Crawley, you know, heaven forbid, you're in charge of English cricket, had come up to you and said, I'd like to go and play in Canberra, what would you have said? Lots of questions there, sorry.
9:40Nasser Hussain:Well, I think we did talk about it after the game, and I'm of the same opinion that if Crawley or Pope or whoever had said, I really want to go to Canberra, I really want to have a hit, I really want to feel bat on ball in a competitive game, then absolutely go. And I'm sure that would have been the case, but they've decided not to. And I don't really have a problem with that. I know a lot of people do. And it's interesting, isn't it, that Stuart Law, your old mocker from Essex, and Peter Siddle, actually, who's playing against the Lions in this two-day game at Canberra, they've both said they agree with England's decision.
10:19Nasser Hussain:I think everybody who knows that pitch at Marnica, it's called the Marnica Oval in Canberra. It's a long time since I've been there. But it tends to be very slow and low. So very different conditions in terms of the pitch. and very different climactic conditions as well. You know, it's low early 20s in Canberra. It is early 30s, hot and humid here in Brisbane. So I actually think I'm fine with the decision to come here. Once they're due to practice Saturday, and then they've got Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday at the Gabba, two of those practice sessions are scheduled to be under lights. Obviously, all the practice sessions were with a pink ball.
11:02Nasser Hussain:I actually think that's probably, if I was a batter, top order batter, if you asked me what I would want to do, even on the back of a pair, say, I think I would have wanted to come to the Gabba to get the bounce, the pace, and the heat and the humidity and get here in good time, rather than a slightly rushed arrival from Canberra. That game is Saturday, Sunday, a rushed arrival from Canberra, Monday, and then you've only got Tuesday, Wednesday before the game. So I think I would have preferred to come to the Gabba But had I been in charge And somebody had said Look I really want to get back on ball In a competitive fixture Then I think you'd be flexible And as it is only Bethel Pops and Tong Are going But I didn't particularly have a problem with that And I think We know what it's like when you get beaten in Australia Suddenly there's a Everything becomes very focused on you Doesn't it And the easy thing I think to do is to panic.
12:02Nasser Hussain:The easy thing to do is to make decisions because of how it looks and the optics. It's a little bit the old naughty boy net syndrome. And I think you have to hold your nerve at this point. They made these decisions a long time ago. I'm not sure why this should necessarily change tack now. And I certainly don't agree with the point that they're being disrespectful. You know, if you're going to make that argument, make that argument five, six weeks ago when England made it plain that the Lions were going to be fulfilling this fixture. What do you reckon? I wholeheartedly agree with the optics thing.
12:37You know, I've heard some comments, you must go and play because if you lose, then it will look really bad that you didn't play that game. That's not why you make decisions. You make decisions to give yourself the best chance to win. and if you feel going to the Gabba and practicing in those, they're not practicing in midday all the time with a red ball. They will be practicing with a pink ball. They will be. I see they've upped their practice, haven't they? They were due to do three. They're now doing five. They will be practicing at night under lights. So don't just do something because you think, oh, it'll look bad if we don't do it and we lose.
13:09Do things and make decisions on what you'll think is going to win you that test match. So I've got no problem with it. They've come this far I think now's not the time just to change Because of optics What about from the Australia camp? Any news at all? I saw footage of Pat Cummins Bowling with a pink ball Hazelwood bowling with a red ball Are there any hints in that or not?
13:33Nasser Hussain:Yeah, I think Cummins is close To playing Obviously he was practicing with a pink ball So you don't practice with a pink ball Unless you're thinking of playing in the day-night game He said during the game Didn't he have half a chance of playing I suspect that's where he is. I suspect he's 50-50 and they have to weigh up going for the kill now with a stronger team with him in it against any slight risk that then would put him under pressure for the three games because there's still a lot of cricket to play if things don't go well for them here in Brisbane. Hazelwood, as you say, was practising with a red ball.
14:08Nasser Hussain:It seems fairly certain he's not going to be... I think the Aussies are going to name their team in the next 24 hours or so, but it seems fairly certain Hazelwood's not going to be playing here at the Gabba. But they do seem to expect him to play some part later on in the series. There's a bit of whispering, wasn't there, around the Test match that Hazelwood might not play at all. But, well, what they've said is they expect him to play at some stage, maybe Adelaide, maybe Melbourne. I was just going back to England, I was thinking of Zach Crawley, you know. So, I mean, how tough the game is in terms of the kind of mental waiting for the next thing when you're on a pair.
14:50Nasser Hussain:And, you know, as well as I do, that I was the last person to make a pair before Zach did in an Ashes test. But I was thinking, and you'll remember this, I actually made consecutive pairs in test matches abroad because the game after Melbourne I missed at Sydney. Yeah, exactly. I missed the game at Sydney because I'd gone in the back and I'd really gone in the back at Melbourne. But I missed the game at Sydney. And then the next one was in that South Africa tour. I was in red hot form running into that test match at Joburg and then just got two unplayable balls. About a thousand times. The bit of a story you haven't mentioned is for the whole week of that build-up, all I heard, all I read, everything that was on the telly was your brilliant 185 with Jack Russell batting for a week to save a test match and the whole dressing room high-fiving you up the top there when you walked past.
15:49And I thought, oh, my old mucker, my first test away from home, Johannesburg, and you bagged a pair for me. Thanks, Seth. We were two for four, thanks to you.
15:59Nasser Hussain:I think I got a first ball and a second ball, two absolutely ripsnorters. But, I mean, just putting myself in Crawley's shoes now, I then had a week before a game at Port Elizabeth. All I could think about, I've had essentially away from home, I'm on the Audi. I've got four noughts. I was absolutely crapping myself, if I can use that term. That cricketing term, yeah. When I got a run at Port Elizabeth, I ended up getting 100 there. But when I got a run, I was just so relieved. This is the game, isn't it? Crawley, forget all the practice and the nets and stuff. It's that how is his mind? He's coming out now to face Mitchell Stark, one of the great bowlers with a ping ball.
16:44Nasser Hussain:I think he's got 81 wickets at 17 in ping ball tests. And Crawley's stewing on a pair. He's not got past the first over yet. And he's got now 12 days to sit and think about that. And when anybody talks about cricket and test cricket and the challenges at the highest level, that is it. It's not your technique It's not any of that It's your head How are you going to cope with that scrutiny And that pressure And the thoughts going through your head He'll go to bed every night thinking about it He'll wake up every morning thinking about it And he's got to try and get through it at the Gabba And that is the game If you survive and have a long career You'll have to go through Those extreme Periods of scrutiny and well fingers crossed he comes through it but if he doesn't he doesn't and you know that's the game that is the game but you have to have some kind of thought process you have to put yourself we all visualize don't we we all you see all the cricketers they go out there they stand in the middle bowlers stand at the end of their run slippers keepers I saw Jamie Smith doing it before one ball went down and when England bowled you have to visualize and he's going to visualize Mitchell start running in the king of swing with the pink ball he's going to have that he's got him two and two in the first over.
18:04But you also have to have a thought process and think ahead. How am I going to play? Am I still going to be driving on the up in that first over? You have to, you can't just say, let it be. You have to have a, he's going to bowl me in the first over, a length ball, either swinging back in or going across me. Is it in my percentages to drive on the up? That's all. And we've got a few questions on this between reckless and been positive you know same with the batters at some stage they're going to bowl outside the off stump to pope and harry brooke fifth stump have they in this gap thought about what they are going to do then same with the lower order at some stage if england are going to go well they're going to go bumpers at them have they thought what am i going to do when they do that the plans aren't like it's not like a shame-worn mystery ball or some plan that's going to appear from nowhere.
18:55The plans are pretty obvious and you'd hope England are thinking about how to counter those plans.
19:01Nasser Hussain:Well, absolutely. That is the game. Prepare yourself. Prepare yourself mentally. Visualise. You know exactly what Stark is going to do with a pink ball. And especially if it's that afternoon session or evening session. It is interesting. I was looking at the, because obviously England have played their day-night cricket in Adelaide. They played one in Hobart as well. They don't have a good record in day-night tests in Australia. They have a fantastic record but the the sunset times in Adelaide it's 10 past 8 when the sun goes down and here it's tomorrow it's 25 past 6 so there's going to be much more cricket played under under lights it's going to be basically that twilight period will come in the afternoon session towards T and then full session under lights and and that pink ball is going to swing and start you know he's going to pitch it right up he's going to ask you do you want to drive and And you're going to have to be very crystal clear in how you play and how you're looking to play.
19:58Nasser Hussain:And I still think in Australia, I mean, conditions have changed. Obviously, we've made that point many times over on the pod about this slightly different kookaburra ball and the pitches. But the old rules still apply a bit in Australia. You have to fight damn hard to get into a position where you can dominate an attack. That means getting through 10, 15, 20 overs and having a very crystal clear game plan that, you know, you can full face down the ground and you can cut and pull. But if you're going to be on the up, outside off stump, then you're taking your life into your own hands a bit. Well, that leads us seamlessly.
20:36I mean, things just run so much better when I host this podcast. It's untrue. On to our Q &A session. Hashtag producer has run out of ideas. So let's do a Q &A this week. Elliot Cook, what is the difference, apart from colour, between a pink ball and a red ball? And what might it mean for the second Ashes test? I had to do Sky Sports News last night, and I had no idea because obviously I've not played in a pink ball test. I've looked at the stats. I messaged Stuart Broad, who was on one of his many earners around Australia. He's become the new beefy. He just does earners. A busy Stuart Broad. A busy Stuart Broad.
21:13And eventually he came back after a few Chardonnays. He doesn't particularly like the pink ball. He doesn't actually...
21:21Nasser Hussain:I don't like day-night tests full stop, actually. I mean, the whole point of day-night tests, when I sat on the MCC World Cricket Committee many, many years ago and they were thinking about introducing day-night tests, and the whole point was to play them in places where the crowds are struggling. So somewhere like, say, Bridgetown, Kensington Oval, where crowds have not been great for test cricket, but it goes dark early, it's warm, and it's obvious you can play and get people in after work. This Ashes Test would be sold out here at the Gabba anyway. And the notion that they're going to play that 150th anniversary test match in 2027 under lights, I think is a complete nonsense.
22:04Nasser Hussain:Anyway, it is under lights. And I think it's just there's going to be periods where, not that it's a lottery, but the bowlers are going to be right in the game. You know, that twilight period, which will come in the middle session and then under lights, that pink ball will swing. Now, it didn't swing at all in Perth, did it, for Mitchell Starr? Interestingly enough, he got all those wickets, but he got them really with angle and bounce and wobble seam. We didn't see that big hooping in-swing, but the pink ball, I think, will swing more. And it also just varies a little bit through the day. The difference in conditions can change from the morning session to the afternoon session very quickly.
22:44Nasser Hussain:Now, in Test cricket, that's the beauty of the game. For the five days, the pitch and conditions should change over time. But in a pink ball game, what you get is that quick change of conditions during the day when it moves from daytime to twilight time to nighttime. And what interested me actually was, I know we get a question about whether Travis Head will continue to open throughout this series, but Andrew McDonnell, the Australian coach, was asked about this. And he didn't kind of say yes or no. He said it's in our thoughts. But he said, you know, what we thought about occasionally is the tactical switch of when conditions are in our favor, we might put Travis Head up to open.
23:23Nasser Hussain:So they tried it in the subcontinent. And I was thinking that this pink ball game might kind of play into that kind of tactical switch. Suddenly, if you're batting in the morning session, a daytime session, and you feel the conditions are good for batting, That might be a time when you almost kind of put in a pinch hitter, like Travis said, and say, go and maximize this opportunity. Because in two hours, it might be very different. So I don't know. It opens up quite interesting possibilities that way. On the back of that, there's the difference in philosophy between the two sides and to a degree between modern cricket or modern England cricket.
Read the full transcript
24:00and Rob Key and Ben Stokes and Brendan McCullum have a feeling that the more it's doing, the more they want to put pressure on the bowlers. So the more shots that you want to play and put the great bowlers under pressure, that's where Baz Ball came from, that they saw England struggling, just trying to survive. Sibley, Burns, Hamid, just trying to survive great bowlers, going nowhere. So this philosophy of when the bowlers on top, try and put them back under pressure. We saw at times in the ashes in England, actually, Pat Cummins, as a bowler and as a captain, had to go, whoa, hold on a second.
24:34They are putting us under pressure here. What do I do now? Deep field is out everywhere. So the flip side of that, if it is zipping around under lights, how would you like England to play? More shots or see off that period?
24:48Nasser Hussain:Well, I mean, you know, I'm of a type, of an age where I feel you there are times when you have to work damn hard as a batter. I don't have a problem. And first of all, basball is a media invention, isn't it? It was coined by journalist Andrew Miller from Crick Info. Stokes and McCollum and Key hate the phrase. And they've never really, they've never talked about basball. But what they do, the only thing they have said, as far as I can see, is that they want to pick batters who have the ability to put bowlers under pressure. and you're not going to get in this team if you are a blocker who cannot transfer pressure back onto the bowlers, and I don't have a problem with that.
25:33Nasser Hussain:Attacking, batting, absolutely fine. But they've also said there are times when you have to absorb pressure, and I do believe that is the game. There are times when you have to work damn hard to stay in, when the bowler's on top, when you have to give an amount of time to the bowler, and you'll say, I'm going to get through this spell, and then I'm going to cash in. I don't think the game has changed to any degree that that still won't apply every now and again. So, yeah, there are times when you will have to fight damn hard to get through it. Question is, for somebody like Crawley, for example, you know, is that defensive technique or is that ability to stay in and stay at the wicket, is that good enough?
26:17Nasser Hussain:and therefore, you know, do they play the shots because they don't necessarily have the confidence in the defensive technique. But attacking batting, by principle and as a principle, I think absolutely fine. The best teams in the history of the game have looked to attack and looked to win the game. That's fine.
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27:24Right, we better get through these questions. Otherwise, this pod will be longer than the last test match, to be honest. Helen Eccles, who you know well, who I know well, she writes and comments under your Times pieces and talks a lot of sense, talks a lot more sense than you do above the line, I might add. She has come in with, imagine, in brackets, your phone's ring and it's Ben Stokes. I don't think he's ever rung me, but he'd like an off-the-record chat and maybe some advice. Having both endured tough times as England captain in Australia, one bit of advice would you share with him, Ben Stokes?
28:04Nasser Hussain:Well, as you say, Helen is a dedicated subscriber to the Times and watcher of the Sky Cricket podcast, and it's always a delight when she messages because she's got lots of interesting things to say. But I think, I mean, Ben Stokes doesn't chat to us and nor should he. But if he did, I would simply say hold your nerve. I think an Australian tour is the toughest tour for an England cricketer. It is the toughest tour for an England captain. It is the biggest test of your character and your mental strength. And you just have to hold your nerve. As we've seen after defeating the first test, there's an amount of scrutiny now.
28:50Nasser Hussain:And this grows year on year because of the nature of the media and the changing nature of the media. I mean, there's not a former cricketer that doesn't have a podcast at the moment, you know, that's commenting upon things and then all the press. And the scrutiny is incredible. I just think you have to hold your nerve. You have to be strong and hold your nerve. But also, I do believe you have to acknowledge if there are things that you have to get better at. And clearly, at the moment, I was looking at the numbers. Since the start of 2024, England have been bowled out in under 40 overs seven times.
29:29Nasser Hussain:Seven times in under 40 overs. So that's an incredible statistic for me. And it shows that sometimes when either the bowlers get on top or when the pitch is doing a little bit, that notion that they've often spoke about, about absorbing pressure before they put that pressure back on the bowlers, they're not doing that well enough at the moment and they have to be better at that. I would say all of that to him. Hold your nerve. I would also say learn from your mistakes that you have made. That's what frustrates. You know, looking back, England fans and their anger, they're frustrated England aren't going to Canberra to play a two-day game.
30:08You've just got to remember those fans were absolutely ecstatic at lunchtime on day two, 99 for one, effectively. They were probably loving the way this England cricket side were played. But actually, I don't want to speak for fans, but it frustrates me, is that repetitive nature of dismissals and the repetitive nature of when you are ahead in the game, not seizing that moment. And that leads on to a question which I'll try and answer myself, actually. Stavesy asks, why do you think this team can't get over the line in key moments? Inability to win key series or key moments surely is holding this team back.
30:47And I was thinking about this the other day. There have been so many occasions, there's a long list, where England are ahead of the game and they let the side, the opposition, back in through a brainless half hour shot or something happens and the opposition are back in. And, you know, they like their golf. They love their golf. It's well documented. And if you've ever seen Tiger Woods play the last round of a golf tournament, a major, when he gets ahead in a tournament, he is absolutely ruthless. He doesn't pick up a driver on every hole. He plots his way around the hole. He doesn't go for every pin at the Masters.
31:27He'll go middle of the green, two putt, and he'll have them all try and come at him because he's in the lead and they all come, they all fall away. He plays calm golf, risk-free golf, and he wins tournaments. They love their golf. Learn from Tiger Woods.
31:45Nasser Hussain:It's a good analogy because I was at the Masters when he won that great comeback thing, and I was covering it for the paper. And it's a bit of a panic because of the time difference. And, you know, you're getting close to deadline. And he got ahead around Amen Corner. Our viewers, by the way, will hate us talking about golf here. But if you let me just finish your anecdote, he got ahead around Amen Corner. And I started to write up. I thought, there's no way. There's no way he's giving this away. He's ahead. He's ruthless. Absolutely ruthless. when he got ahead. And of course, he just played it, played it so calmly after that.
32:20Nasser Hussain:And I was pretty confident he was going to be home and home. Well, that's my point. Are you starting to write up when this England side gets ahead? No. No, I'm waiting. So again, that thought process, I say to Zach Crawley, what are you going to do in that first over? Or to Harry Brook, when they're hanging it outside off stump? Or to Jamie Smith, when there's three back, are you having a hook? The same thing to Ben Stokes and his team. you are now ahead of the game in Brisbane if you don't think about that moment you don't learn from previous mistakes what are you going to do when you get ahead of the game that's the time Harry Brooks said to you about the shot he played at the Oval, Ollie Pope after lunch on day two here in Perth that's the moment, just to seize the moment make sure you absolutely grind the opposition down are you going to read out any questions or have I got to do all the reading Have I got them?
33:14Nasser Hussain:I don't know. Let me have a look. They're on my laptop. Okay. Dalal Street 369. There's a couple of questions about Joe Root. Will Joe Root's legacy take a hit if he fails in this Ashes series? And there was one about Matthew Hayden, basically. We don't want to. Oh, yeah. User IU said, what are the chances of Matthew Hayden running naked across the MCG? Because no one wants to see that. Matthew obviously saying that that's what he'd do if Joe Root doesn't make 100. He's going to make 100 this series, isn't he? Let's hope so. I won't mind him getting 490s and England winning the Ashes. I don't think England fans or Ben Stokes...
33:57Nasser Hussain:What's the one thing he's got to do? I mean, that slightly... Talking about learning from mistakes and changing and getting better, that slightly open-faced rundown, when he first comes to the wicket, Just got to be careful of that, hasn't he, with the extra bounce? Yeah, Balls said in England he plays late and they go down. He gets a lot of his runs. When we do his wagon wheel, he gets a lot of his runs, even with a slip cordon in behind square on the offside. He's in complete control. But especially now on these pitches, you've written about it this week, about the change and how much it is doing out there, that becomes a dangerous shot.
34:35But in answer to the original question, it's a no for me. Joe Rue is legacy. he will be a great whatever happens here Ricky Ponting didn't get many runs in in India is Ricky Ponting an Australian great yes is he a world great yes did I love watching him back yes unless it was against us Joe Root is England's greatest ever test match batter whatever he does this
34:58Nasser Hussain:series um Ethan Pierce good question this from Ethan if Nasser won the toss in the next test match, what would he do, bat or bowl? 33 minutes, 34 minutes into the pod, the Brisbane toss question. Why do you think I'm here in Perth taking the last available flight to Brisbane? How many times are they going to be walking or running around that river and someone's going to shout, hey, what are you going to do with the toss this week? Actually, my phone was going off in Perth. It was my fault we lost in Perth because people were tweeting saying every captain's now afraid to bowling first because of Usain's decision at Brisbane or whatever.
35:37So I don't think Stokes was doing it for that reason. I think you'd have to bat, wouldn't you, with day-night cricket? That first day, the toss comes down. That's the opportunity to bat. I think maximise the opportunity, as you've just mentioned, about when you're playing in daylight as opposed to you bowl first, bowl really well, and then it's nipping around under lights later. So if you win the toss in Brisbane in a day-nighter while the sun's out and it's daytime, I will bat.
36:08Nasser Hussain:And on the back of that, somebody who's called the Isteds has sent in a question, what are each of yours best and worst days playing in Ashes cricket in Australia? Does Brisbane 0-2-0-3, the Gabba, does that stand for you? No, apart from Simon Jones's knee. That was a sad moment for me because I love Simon Jones. I really do. I love the way he bowled. Just a good, honest, big-hearted, right at the start of his career. And then, you know, that knee incident. And I went to see him in his room and he was all over the place. So as for Simon Jones, definitely, no, we've had so much mental scarring in Australia.
36:52There have been some dark moments, some good moments. I'd say Melbourne and Hedley Bowling beautifully there Goff's hat trick in Sydney The times that we have won I've enjoyed my tours of Australia I don't know about you but I've loved my tours of Australia Even when we were getting battered by Warren And everyone There have been some difficult moments What about for you?
37:16Nasser Hussain:Well the wins obviously Melbourne Although as I say I got a pair I don't think I touched the ball in the whole game actually I stood at first slip That is definitely my favourite moment But we won. We won by 12 runs, headless, getting six for in the second innings. That was great. Adelaide, 94-5. Great win there against the odds, really. We only had 11 fit players at the start of that game. It was such a chaotic tour. That was the tour that gave rise to the Parmy Army, first of all. But some very difficult days. I remember the Perth at the end of that tour when things just fell apart. We dropped about 10 catches in a day.
37:52Nasser Hussain:That was the one you'll have seen, the famous one. Kicked it away. Was that Thorpey? Thorpey dropped one at first slip and booted it through extra cover and they ran through. That was like the end, really. And then there was an unbelievably difficult day. You'll remember it on that 98 tour when we lost the toss at Adelaide first day and it was 47 degrees. And you open your mouth and it felt like the back of your throat was about to set on fire. And I remember Darren Goff running in for the final hour of that day was one of the most fantastic things. Everybody was cooked. We were goosed. And he came steaming in at the end of a difficult day.
38:32Nasser Hussain:And I thought, if you can take something of the heart and spirit required to do well here, I'd take watching Darren Gough in the final hour of that very difficult day. I'll tell you what was quite an interesting question. Sorry, can I just stop you there? It didn't help that Bumble had us doing our warm-ups at like 8 o 'clock in the morning in 42 hours. And the Aussie team, they all strolled in, Langer, Wall, Wall, Martin, McGrath, in their flip-flops about five minutes before the toss, laughing at us as we'd been out there for two hours. No wonder we were all cooked by 5 o 'clock in the evening.
39:08This is too England-centric. An Aussie question now. Mayank has asked, is it the right time for Australia to move on from Khawaja?
39:19Nasser Hussain:Well, he looks like a player at the end of the road, doesn't he, at the moment? I mean, he may obviously play here, surprise us, do really well. He turns 39, I think, in the Adelaide Test. And it sounds like he wants to try and get to Sydney, and that may be a farewell game there. But certainly, he looks very vulnerable at the top of the order, doesn't he? And not helped by the difficulties of his back spasms in the match at the Gabba. in the match at Perth, and then Travis Head coming out and blasting it all around the park. At the general point, Af, I mean, they look, and I sort of agree with this, they look like a side, and I know they got a bit of stick, the selectors from Steve Waugh before the series, about sticking with people a bit too long.
40:05But they do look like a side that stick with players for one game too many rather than one game too many.
40:11Nasser Hussain:Which is fine. I mean, you don't want to be chopping and changing. But I think that was the double frustration about Perth, wasn't it? Because England had their opportunities and it looked like an Australian side with a few fault lines there. Kawadja off the field, back spasm. Lyon had been hit on the hit, was hobbling, wasn't sure whether he was going to bowl. No Cummins, no Hazelwood. The former players lining up ready to have a dip at the selectors. There are a few fault lines there and England could have easily exploited those and didn't. A question here, Kumbuka. How difficult is it as commentators and pundits to really call out and criticise the team, given you have to tour and spend considerable amounts of time with them and don't want to jeopardise relationships long term?
41:03Nasser Hussain:We get this a bit, don't we? I think there's a perception out there that we don't criticise Basbal because we're mates. with Rob Key or whatever. I mean, I have to say to Kambuka that we do not knock around with the team. We don't have dinner with the team. We don't go out for drinks with the team. We don't spend any time with the team at all. And I don't feel any differently about the way that I commentate or write or speak about this team than any other team. And if I speak well about them, it's not because of any personal favoritism. It's because of what I've seen in the two or three years that they've been doing the job is that they've given us some of the most thrilling moments that I've seen from an England team.
41:49Nasser Hussain:But equally, when they don't perform, as they didn't in Perth, as they didn't against India at the Oval, you know, we're suitably critical. and you know I don't it's important to say that we don't have any kind of you know we're not in the bar with the players having having drinks with them left right and center it's a very distant relationship actually because obviously we are distant from the team now it might be a little bit different for for Stewart who's played with them and knows them and probably you know socializes with them still I'm not saying he won't criticize by the way but just he's naturally socially closer to them because he's played with them.
42:27Nasser Hussain:But, you know, we're pretty distant from them now and therefore have that objectivity. I don't socialise with the Sky team, let alone in the team, to be honest. Couldn't think any worse than going out with you and Ian Ward and Stuart Broad every evening. But I actually find it harder that if you are in the same hotel as we are sometimes, Pakistan or whatever, that I find hard simply because I hate two-faced. I hate being two-faced. I hate being strong and critical of a player and then getting in a lift or something and there's Zach in the lift. You know, like, oh, bad luck, you got a good one today, Zach.
43:03And I've just been nailing him for wafting outside the off stump. So I hate being two-faced. And that's why, given the choice, you do your job, they do their job. You call it as you see it. Otherwise, you just go around in circles, to be honest. And to be fair to Stewart, Stewart does get on well with some of the players in the team. but he still calls it as he says. Fair to Ricky Ponte.
43:23Nasser Hussain:Yeah, and I wasn't implying that he doesn't, only that he's just out of the dressing room and therefore will know them socially far better than we do. I mean, you know, on a social level, we know them as cricketers, but on a social level, I don't really know the current England team particularly well at all. Although I'm bound to say that when we do see them close up on the pitch, they're all generally nice and friendly and good to chat to. They hate you, but yeah, that's right. Also, I was going to finish there, Ricky, in 2019. I found that amazing. And it is a little bit the modern way with punditry, actually.
44:05There's quite a few pundits, DK is one of them, that is still a coach, still involved with franchises or even teams. Ricky, in 2019, was doing a lot of work with David Warner and the batters, and yet he still could come up to the commentary box and call it as he saw it. He may be working with Warner at what he's working on to counter Stuart Broad, but he would come up to the commentary box and sort of explain what he was working very well. It's a fine balancing act to get, actually. I would find that hard if you're working with someone. You don't want to divulge secrets.
44:40Nasser Hussain:Yes, and sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you there, but the other thing to say is that you hopefully don't forget how difficult the game is and you commentate or criticise or whatever with a degree of empathy because it is a long time since we were in the dressing room. It's a long time since we strapped them on for the first ball of an Ashes Test match. But I have not forgotten that feeling the night before where you do not sleep, where you are wracked with nerves, where your mouth is dry before the first ball of that game. And hopefully you don't forget that because the moment you do, I think then you do lose that empathy and you need to remember that it is a difficult game.
45:26Nasser Hussain:And that's not to say that you don't criticise or you're not straight in your criticisms, but you need to kind of remember the difficulties, I think, and just have that in the back of your mind. So, you know, you do criticize and you speak with some degree of empathy. One final question from me, and I'm asking of you because you're more cerebral than me. You're more of a historian of the game than me from adventurous side, which is not you in any way. But right. Let's have a look at this. If you had to define the true essence of the ashes in one idea, what would it be and why has it survived every change in the game?
46:07Michael Atherton?
46:08Nasser Hussain:Good question. I think ultimately the Ashes are a referendum on each of our cricket systems, aren't they? You've got your six states here, an Australian team that historically has played aggressively with the bat, has bowled a bit quicker than we have and has had wrist spin say that's their cricketing kind of DNA. Our 18-county system, slightly more defensively orientated batters historically, you know, kind of swing and seam bowlers in English conditions. And you've got that referendum. You'd have to say over the whole history of the Ashes, Australia have got a slight but defined advantage in it.
46:54Nasser Hussain:But also, I think for now, when people follow the Ashes, I don't know about you, but I can measure because the Ashes come so regularly every two years, four years in Australia, four years England, but every two years, you can kind of measure your life by Ashes series. So I remember as a boy, very, very dim memory of watching the highlights when England came to Australia in 75, 76 and got smashed by Lillian Thompson. I just have a very, I was only about eight. I have a very vague memory of sitting at home in the lounge, watching that with my dad. But then, you know, a child of the 81 Ashes, Beefy's Ashes, Beefy's 70 the other day.
47:34Nasser Hussain:I saw him. I thought, I can't believe it. He's 70. But, you know, I was 13 and so impressionable then. And that was what got me hooked, really, watching Bob run down the hill at Edingly. And Beefy in 81. Gower in 85, holding the ashes up on the oval balcony. 86-7, the last time we won in Brisbane, actually. You know, I was at university. And I can kind of measure moments in my life and obviously then playing the game. So that's what it means to me. It will mean something different to everybody. But I think that the regularity of it means that people can kind of measure their life by it. And for me, if I could sum it up in two words, it would be it matters.
48:18In a time where cricket and there's a lot of cricket and you put on, I was in the gym in India and there'd be some tournament somewhere in the world. And it's great. It's a little bit of wallpaper. It's cricket. I love all forms of cricket. the ashes matter and you only have to be walking out of that ground on day one or day two or be around Perth this week or Brisbane next week and see the reaction of Aussie fans and England fans it matters to people and that is what the essence of sport is for me that you get up and you're so excited about it and you're so down when it doesn't go your way and you're so proud of your team when you win and so disappointed when you lose.
49:01That is the essence of sport and the ashes. It matters and long may continue mattering. And next week in Brisbane will matter. So we're just about done. I'll see you in a couple of days. When you get in the end. When you arrive. Monday. My jolly in Perth continues. Rottnest Island tomorrow, courtesy of the Western Australian Cricket Board, the tourist board. so yeah I'm coming in Monday looking forward to it it's going to be a long gap it's going to be weird but we're catching up hopefully with a fully clothed at this stage Matthew Hayden and hopefully doing a pod with him the king of Queensland
49:42Nasser Hussain:we can't have the big dos sat naked on our podcast with just that big pink hat on his head not so sure that would be a good look see you Monday what a thought to end this podcast
49:58We'll be right back.
From the publisher
Nas is still in Perth, but Michael's flown to Brisbane ahead of the 2nd Test at The Gabba where England will look to level the series.
They discuss whether it's right that England aren't playing in the pink-ball tour match in Canberra, if it's time for Australia to move on from Usman Khawaja, and tell us what advice they'd give to Ben Stokes.
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