Can Pakistan turns things around at Lord's as Root's England look to seal the series?

0:01Yeah, gone! Gone, he gets his fairytale ending!

0:05Nasser Hussain:An epic way to go to a Test Match 100. The London Spirit of First Time win is the most remarkable thing you'll probably ever see in cricket. 604 and final Test wicket for Stuart Ball. It's ended when the T20 won't happen. Can you believe it? Moments after Stokes' international career is coming to an end. Another wicket for this incredible cricketer. So this week's Sky Cricket Podcast comes mid-test series. We're recording 9am Monday morning, a few days after England went 1-0 up at Headingley. And the morning after, another news story about an England cricketer out late. And we understand that the ECB are meeting later this morning.

0:56Nasser Hussain:So we're recording ahead of their meeting. They're going to discuss what the Bridencast story. So we're going to hold our fire because we don't know any detail really and what they're going to say. So we may come back to that later on in the week. But Nass, how are you? Did you ever find a nightclub in Derby, first of all? I don't think I ever found a nightclub in Derby. Definitely not. I'm good, actually. I came back on the train. When was that? Wednesday, Thursday, Friday night? Yeah, Friday night. Three-day test. No test cricket at the weekend. Broad nearly missed his train. That was the highlight of my trip to Headingley.

1:40Broad running down the platform.

1:42Nasser Hussain:The highlight of my trip was the fact that you had given him your bag with all your dirty washing. Do you think Broad's going to wash your dirty Grundys in between test matches? Not at all. I left it and I went to get something from M &S. Other shops are available for the train. Me being the team man, you and DK just sat on the train and didn't tell anyone you were there. And I got food and wine for everyone. And when I came back out, everyone had disappeared. So I wasn't worried about Broad. I was worried about my Reg Grundys for the week ahead. So Broad finally got on the train and all was well.

2:21We got into wherever Kings Cross and went our different ways.

2:25Nasser Hussain:I thought there was an interesting difference between the modern player, which we still call Stuart Broad 1, and the past players. When he got into a bit of a flap and needed a ticket, what did he do? He rang his PA. He rang his PA to book him a ticket. Unbelievable. We're on train line. He's ringing his PA. There is the difference, to be honest. Anyway, how are you? I see you've got your bookshelf up and going. I'm in the kitchen. We've swapped roles. Yeah, the bookshelf's behind me. It's actually my wife's books up there, so that'll all be about Guyana and West Indies or something. I'm all right.

3:03Nasser Hussain:I've gone in the back, actually. Oh, God. Captain Grumpy's back. Yeah, I'll be grumpy whilst that is ongoing. I've generally been pretty good in the last few years with my Tintac, But I'm afraid I'm not in a good way. So I'll be in a grumpy mood at Lord's, I should think. Fingers crossed that. That heals. One man who's not in a grumpy mood, though, is Joe Root, because he came back as captain and things went for him about as well as they could have gone, Nass. Yeah, for him and the team, really. I mean, sometimes when England lose, it's like, how dreadful are England and aren't they awful? And when they win, it's all how dreadful the opposition are and outpour Pakistan, which we will come on to, no doubt.

3:48But I think you can only play what's in front of you. And I thought Joe had almost the perfect game, won the toss. You could argue did the right thing. You may say that if he was tested a bit more and if their side was tested a bit more, that was a dry pitch that started to turn on day two. But they played the game perfectly. He played the game perfectly. He got runs. I thought his captaincy was excellent, his field placements. I didn't think he tried to be Ben Stokes or Funky or whatever. He just tried to be Joe Root. And when you look down on the pitch, you knew who was in charge. And he set the fields according to what the conditions were like.

4:28There was a definite change in, I would say, tempo of the game without going ridiculously back to the bad old days of blockers and hyper-attacking in the field. I thought there was a real good tempo to their innings.

4:45Nasser Hussain:The run rate was about the same, wasn't it? I think I asked Benedict what they scored at under Stokes and McCollum, and I think he said 4.4, which is a remarkable run rate over a four or five-year period. And England were about at that against Pakistan. But, of course, they didn't have to make the running at all, did they? They just had to take what was on offer, really. Most of the Pakistan bowlers, with the exception of Mohamed Abbas, were bowling a bad ball every over or so. And once you put that away, you're galloping along at fours. But I agree with you. Although they were going at four and a half and over, there was a calmness about their batting.

5:25Nasser Hussain:And I suppose in particular, Harry Brook, there's quite a lot of attention on Brook and how he fits into this new regime. I was sorry to see him fall just short of 100. I thought he played really well. He did. He got his tempo spot on. But he's a smart cricketer to realize that you didn't have to do too much against that Pakistan. They're going to bowl one bad ball and over. So I guess you could argue in the past, in that situation, he may not have been smart. He may have not seen that there were boundaries to be had, especially at Headingley. Any bad ball gets put away. So I thought the whole batting lineup prayed really nicely.

6:03the one thing you could be critical is none of them went on to get 100 or a big 100 that's twice now brooke two years running 99 and then 91 and he just his tempo it's almost like he wanted to get there that second evening in case the umpires took him off for bad light he didn't want to be in the 90s not out overnight what did you make of cox and lawrence you presume down the line Bethel would come back in at some stage so important series for both of them yeah I thought

6:34Nasser Hussain:Cox played well in particular um I don't know I don't know whether he's a number three down the line I suspect he's more of a of a kind of middle order player but England have got a glut of those so he's going to have to take his chances where where where they come um but I thought he looked He looked pretty composed. He's obviously got a bit of flair about him. Lawrence is an interesting player, isn't he? He's very leg side. And eventually, Pakistan started to hold a line and a channel. And I think that's going to be the question for him. Good teams will obviously bowl fourth, fifth stump. And where are his scoring options then?

7:21Nasser Hussain:A, is he patient enough to wait? for them to come to him and be what are his kind of more of his scoring options through through the offside and then i suppose the other question about cox relates to smith who if there's one kind of downer of the week i thought it was the way jamie smith batted on the back of a pretty poor ashes he could do with some runs i think once he got two half centuries in the last 18 knocks and he didn't throw many punches down the order, did he? And therefore, the fact that Cox keeps as well, that may become a talking point down the line. But Jamie Smith certainly deserves an opportunity, a longer opportunity to get back to the kind of form he had at the start of his Test career.

8:14Nasser Hussain:But he just looked a bit... I don't know whether he's kind of thinking about technique too much or what, but he looked a bit kind of uncertain, I thought, in that position. Yeah, I mean, you have to get that balance right, batting with the tail, don't you? That's where he's going to be most of the time. Now he's sort of switched back to seven. Now Lawrence has come in at six. He's going to be batting with the tail, and that's how he was out in the end. And he got bounced a couple of times. And he actually plays the short-ish ball, waist-high short ball really well. But in Australia, on the bigger grounds, they felt he was a bit of a happy hooker.

8:51And a couple of times, Perth, I think he gloved one down the leg side, and he's been caught out in the deep a few times in his career. So that's an area that sides will go at him. So he's just got to get that tempo of batting with the tail. The other thing, going back to Joe Root, and I know we discussed it, It has been discussed since. Stokes has made a comment on it. And it could be Joe's last test innings, that, at Headingley. Incredible, isn't it? You know, he is one of the superstars of Yorkshire, England cricket, our current captain, in the prime of his life, getting runs for fun. And that could be his last test match innings at Headingley.

9:31Nasser Hussain:I find that pretty sad, to be honest. Yeah, there's not a test match at Headingley, men's test match at Headingley until 2029, by which time Root will be almost as old as us. Let's hope he's still going. Two more years of the England captaincy, he might be looking even older, but he still retains a remarkable youthfulness, both in his looks and his general play. What about England's pace attack? I mean, that's really, that was the standout feature of the performance, wasn't it? In order to balance the after the end of Stokes, they were determined to have those four fast bowlers. So I went with Lawrence who can bowl a bit of spin.

10:11Nasser Hussain:But they looked good, I thought, in combination. Yeah, I think the combination's the key there. And that's why you need a combination of different types of fast bowlers. So like in the first innings, when you need bowlers to pitch it up at Headingley and it's doing a bit, Robinson and Tongue were the ideal lengths. Robinson in particular with the new ball and Tongue to come and wrap up the tail which we laugh and we giggle and the rabbit pie and all that but it's something England have lacked under Stokes it came in Tongue towards the end of Stokes but they weren't great at getting tail enders lower order out and Tongue hits the stumps a lot which is what is needed with the lower order but that's a good combination in the first innings and the second innings when it was a little bit more slightly more up and down and slightly drag your lengths back that's what joff did it was nice having my wood with us actually i was on comms and not having a single bit of fast bowling knowledge in my in my body and when joff um got the first wicket and it was cross seam a wobble seam he just tapped me on the shoulder and said get uh get the get get everyone in the trucks to build something on the change in seam position from Archer's first over.

11:23So Archer showed his skills in that second innings by hitting the pitch a little bit harder. So Tung, I'll tell you what, we forget about Tung, Af, and we've highlighted the Ashes a lot. How did Tung not play in the first two? Was he injured or was he just... No. How did he not play in Perth and the Gabba? Looking back now, that's another remarkable thing about the start of the Ashes.

11:48Nasser Hussain:Well, yes. I mean, in hindsight, it looks odd. I did think it was slightly odd at the time just because I'd heard Rob Key and others talk so highly of Tong. I thought, well, he's going to be first pick. Of course, they went into that first test with, you mentioned Mark Wood, Mark Wood, who was obviously nowhere near full fitness. So that was an error in hindsight. But yeah, I was looking at the strike rates of Atkinson and Tong and these guys. They're up with the best of all time. I think Atkinson's strike rate is 39, Tong 40. That puts them 10th and 11th best strike rates of any bowlers in Test cricket, which reflects not just on them, but reflects a bit the way the game is changing and how Test cricket is moving to fast forward.

12:40Yeah, we'll come on to that. And it is moving in that direction. and that that leads to my next question at the end you'd obviously gone you don't do anything at the end anymore you and DK went and got your first class seat on the train getting ready but I was down there at midnight with Stuart Rawls still going over the stuff with Wardy what about if it does spin and that pitch did spin I think Stuart felt now maybe hadn't completely thought everything through but you could go in with this balance of a side in the ashes or in South Africa. Do you think you need a frontline spinner in the future or is this balance of the side okay?

13:20Nasser Hussain:The balance of the side is okay for English conditions generally and probably South African conditions as well, maybe even Australia conditions, but it's clearly not going to be all right in Sri Lanka, probably Bangladesh, India. but then you just reorder and rebalance your side accordingly don't you find you find an all-rounder or a spinning all-rounder you know somebody like Ryan Ahmed or Calvin Harris and these guys who can balance it up a bit more because you know if you go as opposed to a front line spinner well you I mean that's the decision to make isn't it you you've obviously if you're playing on a spinning track you want your you want spinners who are going to be able to do the job, but whether Shoaid Bashir is better than some of the other spinners, I think, is open to question, and therefore there are different ways of balancing the side.

14:15Nasser Hussain:But for now, I mean, if you think that England have got the two tests here and then the three in South Africa, the next five tests, I imagine they'll just go in with the same balance. Four seamers, they've got two then against Bangladesh. They've got that 150th test in Australia, day-night game. They'll certainly not play a spinner in that and then you'll come to the ashes and probably the same balance. So basically for all but two of the next dozen test matches, there's going to be very little requirement to play that specialist spinner. So I think they've kind of looked at it from the moment Stokes stepped away and said, how can we balance our side?

14:56Nasser Hussain:What have we got coming up? This is the way to go. And their strength is in their four pace bowlers. and then Brooklyn Root on the middle. And if you keep having two and a half, two days, three-day test matches, which we seem to have either watched or covered a lot in the last few years, then your spin very rarely are the ones that are bowling. Why, Michael Atherton, are we having such quick test matches discussed? Is it pitches? Is it balls? Is it quality of batting lineups? Is it quality of the bowlers? Why is a test match finishing so quickly around the world? I think it's a combination of all those things.

15:35Nasser Hussain:A good crop of fast bowlers at the moment in most countries. Some very average batting lineups. The mentality of batsmen in the T20 age, which is basically to play a more high-risk game. And if the game has gone, not to hang around and try and stick around for a draw. Pitches that have become more home-friendly in the era of the World Test Championship with points on offer. People are looking to take advantage, home advantage. DRS, I think, has made umpires a bit more outers than not outers. The Kookaburra ball has changed and pitches have changed in Australia. If you put all those factors together...

16:16Touring sides arriving, not playing too much cricket. Yeah, just playing one game.

16:21Nasser Hussain:So the numbers are pretty stark. I mean, I looked at the test matches finishing within three days in the last six years of 25%. 75 % and when we played in the 90s it was 7 % so that's a stark contrast and a stark difference whether it's good or bad for the game is a wholly different matter which I think we might cover actually in the test match this week we're gonna have a bit of a debate around all that um there's a bit of rain forecast at Lord's so that might mean that it goes a bit bit deeper we shall see and what we pray for is a better Pakistan performance as well because they were woeful in the first test and we thought we'd get an expert on Pakistan cricket to discuss them.

17:24The biggest games on Sky Sports, then you can catch up on all the major talking points. You'll hear from top pundits like Roy Keane, Micah Richards and Jamie Carragher and find out what the managers and players have to say as well. That's the Sky Sports Premier League podcast, available wherever you listen to your podcasts.

17:51Nasser Hussain:osman sami udin senior editor at crick info and author of a mighty fine book about the history of pakistan cricket welcome to the sky cricket podcast you knew you were coming on our podcast so you had to get yourself in front of a a fantastic bookcase because of course there you go So, yeah. The wisdoms are all there as well. Yeah, I mean, I don't often get into this room. So I've had to fight with my wife to get into her office effectively. Otherwise, I'm just in the dining room. So you've got a better wall now. Now, the book you wrote about Pakistan cricket, which is a great book, is called The Unquiet Ones.

18:27Nasser Hussain:And it was an excellent title, which in many ways kind of reflects how Pakistan have played their cricket over the years. And I suppose my first question to you, looking back at the two days or three days, barely three days of the Leeds test, was that it was a woefully quiet performance from Pakistan. Yeah, I think I remember one of the lines I wrote in the book was, it would be an absolute tragedy for Pakistan cricket to actually go quiet, which they kind of now are. That performance, it's not a great side. The side that's come to England this year, and I've seen a lot of opinion that, you know, it's probably the worst side to tour in 50 years.

19:10I don't think that's wrong. That's probably the correct assessment. It's the weakest side. You know, I don't like using the word worst. It's the weakest side they've had in a long time. But that was also that weak side having a very bad game, having, you know, kind of their maximal bad game. So they dropped catches, they didn't score the runs they needed to. The bowlers who you would think they're perfect for the conditions that they got, actually. You know, some of them are just early 80s. Abbas, of course, is a master in these kind of conditions. They just didn't bowl well enough. They didn't put enough together.

19:42So I think it was an ordinary side which had a really, really bad game. But it's part of probably a longer trend of Pakistan, as you say, you know, kind of quietening up a little bit from what they used to be. not not only was it a poor pakistan performance but it was a very un-pakistan-like performance as in style of performance batters that didn't play with any kind of flair bowlers without pace or accuracy if they didn't have pace no wrist spin and even the crowd you know we put out a 96 film room where there were pakistan fans and real theater there weren't many and it just didn't feel like a Pakistan test match at all.

20:24I mean, Pakistan historically have had their ups and downs, but it just didn't feel like a Pakistan performance at all. Yeah, you know, to be fair to them, they've had some pretty dull sides over the last decade, I would say. Mizbah's side was not an exciting side by any standards, by any stretch of the imagination, but Mizbah's side, I think, had some kind of durability and they had, you know, they had Mizbah in charge for a long time. He knew what he wanted from his team and he got, But if you guys remember the 2016 tour that Pakistan made here, that great do-all series that they had, not a great England side, but Pakistan's base attack on that tour was Rahat Ali, Suhail Khan, Muhammad Amir returning to chess cricket after five years, and Yasser Shah.

21:07So they didn't have a great attack then either, actually, and they were pilloried for having not a great attack. But I think they had enough in their batting and in Yasser Shah to kind of put together a performance. England, you know, weren't a great side in 2016, and they managed to pull out what is an epic series in Pakistan terms. In 2018, they drew one all. They had Abbas and Hassan Ali who did stuff. So they haven't always been exciting, but I think they've had a couple of players always who have been able to put together enough performances to, you know, to do okay. But I think the last two, well, the last World Test Championship and this current one, I think the tables are not lying.

21:46Pakistan finished bottom of the last one. I think they're second but bottom in this one right now. That's not telling an untruth as far as where this team, kind of the generation of this team stands. So where does that demise begin? Did you see it coming? Have you seen it coming? What are the problems? If you were in charge of Pakistan cricket, if you were director of cricket at Pakistan, what would be the very first thing you would change and put right? One, I would never want to be. It's a hell of a difficult position to be in. But I think one of the main things, one of the first things I would do is put in a domestic structure, whichever one you choose.

22:32And in Pakistan, there's been this great battle over the last 50 years, really, about whether you should have departmental sites like PIA, the Pakistan International Airlines, Habib Bank, in the competition, or whether you should have regional sides. That's been the great debate for forever. I would pick one and just stick with it and put it in stone that this side, this structure is going to stay in cricket for the next 10 years, next 12 years. You know, Pakistan's domestic cricket has literally, they've changed structure and format pretty much almost every single season since the first first-class season, which was back in like 1950, 53 or whatever, there's been no stability whatsoever.

23:12We've gone from cutting down from 14 teams to six teams in 2019 and 2020, to then expanding in 2022 back up to 16 teams with four first-class tournaments and three white ball tournaments. So, you know, that chopping and changing, when they cut the number of teams down in domestic cricket from like 16 to six in 2019, they literally lost half their entire first-class cricketer pool. You know, there were stories of first-class cricketers who went off and took up driving Ubers because suddenly overnight they didn't have a career. So it's that kind of vast and drastic change that happens pretty much every season that has really kind of impacted the quality of domestic cricket, which is, you know, where you're going to get your talent from.

23:58Nasser Hussain:How much of the problems that Pakistan have at the moment are specific to them and the domestic structure, the general standard of quality of cricket that you're talking about, and the broader issues of the global challenges that some countries face? How do you kind of balance that? I think it's a bit of both, but I think a lot of it is self-inflicted. Since September 2021, I think the PCB has had four different chairman. So we had Hassan Mani, who'd done a terrific job until then in terms of providing some stability with Waseem Khan, who, of course, is familiar with English cricket followers.

24:42He left in September 21. We've had since then Rameez Raja, Najm Sethi, Zakha Ashraf, and now Mohsen Akpi. So four different administrators, heads of the board, with very different views and very different levels of involvement in the game, really. I mean, you had three of them who have been very hands-on. The current PCB chairman is, he's the interior minister of the country as well, which, you know, Pakistan has a lot of interior minister issues on any given day. So he's fairly busy with his day job and how much time he has left for cricket, you kind of wonder. So, you know, a lot of these things I'd say are self-inflicted.