Emergency Podcast! Ben Stokes left out of 2nd Test, Joe Root returns as captain

0:01Yeah, go on, go on, he gets his fairytale ending. An epic way to go to a Test Match 100. The London Spirit of First Time win is the most remarkable thing you'll probably ever see in cricket. 604 and final Test wicket that's due at all. It's India will win the T20 World Cup. England's captain Ben Stokes, while he is there, England have hope.

0:31Well, hello and welcome to the Sky Sports Career Podcast. My name's Ian Ward. I'm joined by two former England captains, Nasser Hussain and Michael Atherton. Now, a lot of deliberations have been going on at ECB Towers after the events of Monday morning involving Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson. We had a statement at the time. We've had precious little since then, but what we have had at three o 'clock today as we record this is an official statement and a squad release for the second test match against New Zealand at the Oval. I'll read it out. The England and Wales Cricket Board can confirm that given the ongoing investigation, Ben Stokes and Gus Atkinson have not been made available for selection for the Rossi's second test against New Zealand, which starts at the Obel on Wednesday.

1:13Yorkshire batsman Joe Root will lead the team as interim captain. Joffre Archer is back in the squad and Essex batter Jordan Cox. They have been added. Nass, come to you first. When you first saw the news unfold about what did or didn't happen on Monday morning, the early hours of Monday morning, what was your initial reaction? Obviously, huge shock and surprise. So soon after a reset, and we'd seen the reset on the pitch over the previous three or four days, but the main reset also was off the pitch and some of the shenanigans and antics in Australia and New Zealand before they were going to have a reset.

1:55and even though that happened on the pitch, it didn't. Now, if you view it without any kind of context, forget the context of the winter. Two England cricketers went out, having won a Test match, and played brilliantly, beat New Zealand under immense pressure after everything that happened, and they stayed out till 1 o 'clock at night. So it happened in the history of the game, Ian. You know that. Michael knows that. Every cricketer that's played in England knows exactly what happens after you win a test match. So in isolation, that should be no surprise and shouldn't really bother anyone. But obviously cricket and this test was not played in isolation.

2:35It was on the back of a reset. And a captain that was part of that reset, a captain that was making the decisions on curfews and what needed to be done, broke that very curfew and broke the decisions that he had made. And that is not a good look. When your leader is setting the example and telling you this is the way to go, and then he himself at the very first opportunity breaks those codes of conduct as a leader, any leader will tell you that that's not acceptable. Michael, same question to you. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. Unbelievable, really, that we're talking about a story like this so soon after what happened in the ashes, the first test since Sydney five months ago.

3:22And if you remember, the ashes ended with the story about Harry Brook belatedly coming out. Harry Brook's incident in Wellington before an ODI, not after, before an ODI. Of course, they tried to keep that quiet or didn't talk about it publicly. But it came out eventually in the ashes. And that was on the back of other stories, you know, the Noosa trip and footage of Duckett and what have you. So that was the narrative at the end of that ashes tour, not just getting beaten on the field, but a lack of discipline off the field. So therefore, to have another story in the first test match after that Sydney test, I found unbelievable, really.

4:08But I don't think it's a resignation offence And I don't think it's a sacking offence Precisely because of the essential difference With Brook, who was out before an OVI This was after a Test match win Now I take all the point about the context Which is absolutely right That's why this has become a story Because of the context of what happened in the Ashes And because of the narrative around this England team And the need for a bit more discipline off the field. But of itself, staying out late after a victory is neither a sacking offence nor a resignation offence. However, I do think watching Ben's folks, there is an added context to it, and that is the fact that he's four years into his captaincy because I know you spoke to him at length before that test match, but I was in the press conferences.

5:03I watched him very closely, And he did look to me like a man who was four years into the job I think we've been there And really the captains prior to Stokes in recent times Four years has been about the limit And I think no matter who you are, it's a job that takes its toll And I did have a kind of instinct before that game That he was just looking like a man who'd been in the job four years So that's the added context So whilst I don't think it's a resignation or a sacking offence at all, but Ben Stokes, the key thing is, you know, his kind of state of mind four years into the job. And, you know, that's been part of the conversation, no doubt, over the last two or three days about what, how is he feeling?

5:52What is he feeling? What decisions to be made? So there's no way that they were going to be included in this squad. will talk about, I mean, the equally interesting thing to come out of it is that it's not Brook and it's Rue, but that's where we are with Stokes. And he's got decisions to make and we still don't know how he's feeling about his captaincy and about the playing career. Take all of that. Appreciate those points. And I agree with you about curfews and the stuff you've written. I don't believe they work. I think it's a sign of bad management. But what is the point of having... Curfew is a bunch of money.

6:27I completely agree with you. I don't disagree with that, but can I ask you this, though? What is the point of a curfew if there are no consequences? No, completely. And there are consequences because... But even if it was just a one-off... Immediately after that evening, the ECB released a statement saying they've broken team protocols or breached team protocols, I think were the exact words that they used. And obviously, there's an investigation around the incident with the rugby player. So there are consequences. and Ben being party to the imposition of the curfew, that's absolutely right. And whether it's a fine or missing matches, as it would appear to be the case, he's going to miss this game and maybe the second game as well.

7:09So there are consequences, but I don't believe it's a sacking or a resignation offence. But just on the curfew point, Nass, I mean, you're right. Every cricketer that has played the game has been out and celebrated after a victory. Curfews, I thought Lawler wrote a really good piece on cricket et al. They are the last resort for a management that's kind of lost control, really. And the problem with curfews is they just get broken. And if they do get broken, then there are consequences. And it is a reflection of where the team is at, the fact that a curfew had to be imposed in the months between the last test in Sydney and this one.

7:52Well, firstly, I don't agree with curfews at all, and I'll come on to that. But secondly, I couldn't understand with Rob Key. Rob Key, on the one hand, in the winter, saying, no, no, no, we don't have a drinking culture. And on the other hand, saying, right, we're going to have a curfew. Why do you need a curfew if you don't have a drinking culture? You know, everyone knows how cricketers should go about it. While the game is on, before the game, thoroughly professional. If you've got a game in 24 hours, 48 hours, three days, go back, pack your bags, go home, get rest, get in the gym, get well fed, go again.

8:28If there's a 10 day gap and you want to have one night out, that is perfectly acceptable. So I don't understand why there was a curfew if there is no drinking culture. It tends to suggest that there is a drinking culture within the team. and curfews are only for sides that aren't in control off the field, aren't professional off the field. And I remember Andy Flowers saying to me, everything you do off the cricket field will reflect on the cricket field. You'll feel a million dollars better when you step over that line. How professional you are off the field often reflects how professional you are on the field.

9:08And so it strikes me of a side that has not been professional off the field and this was their first chance to show. Now, I don't think, I keep repeating it, you've won the test on a Sunday night, you should be able to go out. But then were the rules. There is a curfew. The game finished at one o 'clock. There is plenty of time to have a few drinks. It's an impressive drinking session, I've got to say that, from two o 'clock to whatever it was in the time they finished. I remember one or two of the plays. I think Stuart Broad was one, actually, after a day-night game in Adelaide in one of the Ashes series.

9:43It might have been 17, 18. I'm not sure. But because of the overrate, the game finished so late that by the time they'd kind of got back into the dressing room, had a bit of a shower and ready to go, it was almost midnight. And they had this ridiculous sight of the players running over, you know, that footbridge from the Adelaide ground to the hotel, which is just the other side, legging it over this footbridge just to make sure, like Cinderella, they were back before midnight. I mean, this is complete nonsense. What about the way that the ECB have handled this, i.e. Stokes and Atkinson, compared with, well, they tried to bury, really, the Harry Brook incident.

10:24They've handled it very differently. I don't know whether they tried to bury it. I'm not sure how fair that is. They just weren't public about it. They hit Harry Brook with a massive fine, 50 grand or thereabouts, the maximum fine that he could be hit with under the terms of his central contract. And they did that straight away. So their argument, you know, when people say they tried to brush it under the carpet, I'm not sure that's fair. What they did was not make it public. And, of course, they took a risk with that, that eventually it would get made public, as it did in Sydney. But I think the way that played out informed how they tackle this.

11:04Yeah. Because that statement came very quickly. And of course, a nightclub in England, in Chelsea, you know, early hours of a Monday morning, given everything, all the context around this team, there was obviously no way that was not going to come out. So I'm very quick to get that statement out. And from that point on, you know, it seemed highly unlikely that either of those players were going to be in this squad. I mean, just to, it is a unique circumstance, I think. I mean, I can't, I'm not sure about the late 19th century or early 20th century, but I can't think of an England captain who's missed a test match for disciplinary reasons in the last 50 years.

11:46You know, Mike Dines left himself out of the ashes in 74-5 for bad form. And other captains have missed tours like Andrew Strauss, Mr. Tour of Bangladesh, didn't he? And Gucci, if you remember, missed a test match in Sri Lanka in 93. but no captain has been kind of left out you know for disciplinary reasons or while an investigation is going on so it is a unique a unique circumstance and a you know very unusual time now so I wonder what Rob Key Brendan McCullum will be feeling about the fact that this curfew was broken and we've spoken about the curfew but it was broken you know I wonder what they are thinking and also what Richard Gould and Richard Thompson are thinking because they were under pressure to make changes after that ashes they back the three of them and this has happened do you think they feel let down um I don't know the Richards that well I've never been in that position how far away they are from day-to-day phone calls and texts I'm sure they're all over it completely but um I've been a I've been a captain um and I know if I'd let Duncan down that you know when he When we first met, he talked to me about trust, and we must trust each other implicitly.

13:03And I think that's what McCollum and Key will be most disappointed. It's the three of them, McCollum, Key, Stokes. Every time we talk about the regime, it's McCollum, Key, Stokes. We don't talk about anyone above. They're the ones that have brought about the change in style and brand, the good and the bad. So they will feel incredibly let down. As I said, someone who instigated a curfew and instigated a tightening of the rules and off-field behavior was the first to break those. But I also think Ben Stokes, and you know Ben Stokes well, I think Ben Stokes will feel like he's let them down. And he will feel a little bit embarrassed.

13:43And I also think there is a duty of care towards Ben Stokes. Now, Ath is spot on. He did look tired, haggard, whatever the phrase is, before a ball went down this summer. And I saw a man that the toll of four years of captaincy, as we all know, me and Ath know, it weighs you down. And then on top of that, you add the form going. Nothing hits you harder as a cricketer than losing your form, not being able to do what you're supposed to do. However you're captaining or whatever, if you're not getting runs, that weighs you down mentally. You put a smile on your face, but that weighs you down. You're winning and you're not getting runs, that's fine.

14:30Or you're getting runs and the side aren't winning, that's fine. I'm doing my bit. But in Australia, if you're losing and not getting runs and losing the ashes, that weighs you down. And then you come back and he has that horrific facial injury that he had. I do think there's a bit of a duty of care. And also, I do think there's a bit of me. Ben Stokes has been there for England a lot. He has been there a lot for England. He's been there as a captain. He's been there as a player at their finest moments, 50 over World Cups, T20 World Cups. He's been a warrior for England. And he got it wrong this time.

15:10He got it horribly wrong. but I do think I don't think that is a sackable offense I don't think and Ben will be in a dark place at the moment and I just hope Ben doesn't think that I've let so many people down that I'm gonna I'm gonna retire I'm gonna make an emotional decision and retire because I think that would be a really sad way for one of England's greats you know one of England's greats should not go out like that. I think he deserves better. It's a wrong way of wording it because you get what you deserve. But I do feel a bit sad if this was the last we saw of Ben Stokes. I really hope it's not.

15:51I think the fact that there's not been anything from him in the last day or 24 hours is probably a good sign because there were some noises yesterday that he was going to be saying something. and the fact that nothing came yesterday and nothing today and the fact that there might just be a bit of breathing space now because they're not going to be playing in the next test. And one assumes because the Trent Bridge test comes very quickly on the back of the Oval test, it would be hard to think that the regulator's investigation will be complete by then. So although there's only one test that they've announced a side for, you kind of feel it might be two.

16:32And that's a fair bit of breathing space then before, because obviously Stokes is not playing white ball cricket, then, you know, quite a long time before the next series against Pakistan. So there may be a chance for him to take a breather and a blow and, you know, a bit of time out, precisely for the reasons that we mentioned. I mean, I agree with those from Nass. I think it's a combination of things, isn't it? It's the Ashes not going well. It's his form, batting form, which has declined. He can't, you know, the game has got him in his grip. Whereas previously, he had control of the game. You know, he'd be able to shape the game to his will and he doesn't seem to be able to do that much more at 35.

17:14And then the facial injury that robbed him of time in the middle. And now this, put it all together, you know, and maybe just a bit of time out might help him. But he may feel, because of the reasons we've stayed, he's just had enough. And, you know, myself and Nass have been there where you get to the point where you just don't want to do it anymore. and who knows whether he's reached that mark. But I think time now might just heal a bit and we'll wait and see where we are. I'd like to go back to something you mentioned a little earlier in your answer, Nass, about your relationship with Duncan Fletcher and look at the relationship between Ben and Brendan McCullum.

17:53Now, it seemed and appeared incredibly tight for the first however many years. I wasn't in Australia. I didn't see any sort of division between them. You guys were out there. but I wonder what Brendan is thinking now because he has stood up and taken a load of flack in Australia for on-field performances, off-field performances. I'm going to quote from Athia, quoting what Brendan said, ultimately what your job is as a leader of the organisation is to make sure we are not making those mistakes because they're not helpful, they're not helpful to the players, team, organisation, not helpful to the fans and the perception of what the job is and what this role means to you.

18:29You don't want to take that for granted. Now, as Ath said, he was talking about himself as leader but it still could apply to Ben. I wonder now how that relationship will be going forward. Well, going back to the Ashes, I still think they were tight, but there was obviously a difference in opinion on how they should play. McCullum wanted him to continue the basball way, run into danger, and it was clear that Stokes saw it differently after Perth, that he wanted to go back to old-fashioned value your wicket over my dead body sort of batting. So there's definite crossing a path going in different directions there.

19:05But as far as their relationship now, as I've just said, McCullum will feel incredibly let down. He said, this is what we need to do. They're sat down for months, the three of them with the ECB. They say it saved them their job saying that we are going to have a reset. We are going to be better. We're not going to get ourselves in trouble. Nothing good happens after midnight. And the very first opportunity, my captain who set the rules has broken that. But I go back to if you ask about me and Duncan or whatever, there's an understanding. There's a human nature to people make mistakes. And I'm hoping Brendan McCullum, after the anger of being let down by Ben Stokes, I hope all of us, actually, not just Brendan McCullum or Rob Key.

19:48I hope all of us, after the anger of feeling a bit left down by our England captain, realise what he has done for this England team as a player and as a captain in the recent past and before that. And I do think he has been there for so many others. We talk about his emotional intelligence. He has been there for others in their difficult times on the field, off the field. He has been there when we needed him to win us a World Cup in both formats. He's been there at Headingley. He's been there coming back from injuries. Yeah, he got it wrong in his youth growing up, in his long-distance past, but he's tried to put all that right, and he's got it wrong again.

20:34I just hope McCollum and Key see someone that has been there for them and has made an error and is willing to change back his ways. Anything I'd say about AF, about the rest, Stokes knows what's coming if he does come back. And if he does come back as captain, that very first press conference he walks into. Yeah, he may not want to go through all that again. Who knows that? But only he knows that. And that's really what I'm saying, that taken in isolation, it's not a sacking or a resignation offence, but the key thing is his state of mind. Does he want to do the job further? Does he want to go through that thing?

21:25Who knows? And only he knows that, but he will know. There'll be a clear sense from him. Just to answer the question about McCullum, I think it's one of his strengths, actually, that he is a very empathetic guy. I remember Andrew Flintoff telling a story, actually. I interviewed Freddie last year. It was like the first interview he did post the Top Gear crash. I remember Freddie saying that after the Pedalo, do you remember the Pedalo incident? I was there. Yeah, in the Caribbean and the World Cup. Not on the Pedalo, mind you. But obviously, Freddie was going through a difficult time then. I remember telling me a story the first time I think he really met, almost came across Brendan was, Brendan was walking down the beach early one morning.

22:15I think it was the morning after the pedalo or something. And Fred was sat on his own, pretty disconsolate and feeling sorry for himself. And he said, Brendan came over, put his arm around him and said, you know, do you need, do you need someone to talk to? And I think that's one of his great strengths, actually. And I think, you know, rather than a technical coach who's going to make you a better batter or whatever, I think that kind of human intelligence or whatever you call it, emotional intelligence and human empathy, I think they're the strong points of McCollum. And they are tight, and that is right.

22:47I think they diverged in terms of their messaging in the winter, and they saw parts of the cricket differently. But I don't think they fell out. I think they're pretty tight. And he will feel that he's embarrassed them both a bit. Well, McCollum's showing empathy in the examples you've given. And I think we've seen enough evidence of Ben showing empathy to some of his teammates that he's looking after in his dress room down the years. And it was said to me that, or perhaps because of this, he's lost the dress room. How will they deal with this captain that can't bend his own rules? And I'm thinking, hang on, they all know that when and if they needed Ben Stokes, he would be there for them.

23:22So surely they will be there for him if he should step back into that role. Would you agree with that? Yeah, absolutely. I think that the criticism is right That if you as a captain A party to Setting a curfew and setting new Protocols and you Break them, you know, you deserve To be criticised, it's foolish It was a mistake That much is clear enough But I don't think it's a case that you can't Look The dressing room in the eye at all You know, absolutely the point That you make is right, that he's been there for many of them would back players up to the hilt. And I do think they'll respond in kind to him.

24:08You can't get away from the fact that it was a bad mistake. And obviously some of the criticism that has rained down is deserved. The only issue, obviously, he's lived his captaincy by the mantra of don't ask others to do something that you're not willing to do yourself. And he's asking them not to go out and to abide by a curfew. And he's not willing and has not been willing to do that himself. And also say the next time, say someone breaks a curfew or whatever, can he look them in the eye and say, well, that's not good enough. You do lose a little bit of your authority, but he's got so much authority and he's got so much in the bag because of his previous behavior.

24:51And I'm talking about cricketing behavior and how he's led the side. I think it would diminish a fraction. But you're right. It won't come as a shock to the team that Ben Stokes went out and stayed out a little bit too late. The problem with Ben is he does everything. There was never going to be a finish at 1 o 'clock and be in bed by 4 o 'clock. Once Ben Stokes decides that he is going to go to the gym and get fit, there is no in-between with Ben Stokes. It's either all or nothing. and that's where sometimes he gets himself in trouble. The fact that there clearly is some punishment for breaking team protocol makes that it would be very difficult to look a player in the eye if he was playing this week and a player broke the protocol.

25:42That would be very difficult. But if you're hit with a punishment yourself, as would any player be, then it makes it kind of easier, doesn't it, next time because the precedent has been set.

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26:45Let's start to throw it forward and lobby in the end. Oh, in other news, if the reports are to be believed about what happened in that nightclub in whatever hour of the morning it was. Who on earth hits Gus Atkinson? He's the most mild-mannered person on the planet. We think. Anyway, we think. Who knows? Now, they've gone for Joe Root as interim captain. They could have gone for Harry Brook. Why have they done that? I imagine two reasons. One, the would-be irony would not be lost on them that if Brook takes over at this point, because of the breaking of a curfew and because of disciplinary reasons, the whole reason for that curfew coming in in the first place was broadly because of what Harry Brook did in Wellington before that one day international.

27:37And so that may be part of the reason. And the other reason, two reasons really, one is Brook is already the white ball captain. and though he is the official vice captain and was the official vice captain for the Ashes, they may just feel with all that white ball cricket coming up against India, I think, what is it? Five T20s and five ODIs or three? Five, whatever it is. There's a lot of white ball cricket. It's a lot. And then the 100. And then the 100. And then the Test Series. On the back of a winter where he was out, you know, New Zealand, Ashes, T20 World Cup, they may just feel at this point They don't want to overburden him and don't want to, you know, add to his undoubted workload.