England with 'a point to prove' as NZ series begins with 150th Lord's Test

23:18It is absolutely ludicrous. I mean... How do New Zealand handle such situations? Because they've been here. I know Ath mentioned you don't play as much Test match cricket, but you are playing here and some of your bowlers have been away playing IPL. What did New Zealand do to make sure that they are ready when country calls? The last time that New Zealand came, we go back to that last basketball series, Tim Southey, Trent Bolt, Matt Henry were all practising in between games in the IPL with a red ball and getting through overs and overs and overs so that they were ready to go when they arrived.

23:51I think they arrived five days before the first test after the IPL on that previous tour. OK, it didn't work out. New Zealand lost the series 3-0. But there is no reason that Joffre Archer couldn't have been bowling six, seven overs each in-between day. The fact that he's not doing that tells me he has no interest in playing test cricket. And why are the ECB not then sending someone out there or having discussions with Kumar Sangakara, with the team saying, we need him to be doing this. We need him to be ready for test match. We've allowed him to come to you for this eight week period. In between days, he needs to be bowling five overs, six overs, seven overs with the red ball so that he's ready to go.

24:37And there's enough time, if you're doing that in between games, there's enough time to come back here for a week and get ready for a test match. There's no issue with that. So I think it's completely wrong. Going back to that, your name in England. So before we get on to New Zealand, Jacob Bethel did say actually that he was just, we interviewed Bethel on the podcast. He just got a batch of Duke's balls delivered. So he, before he got the injury, was practicing with the red ball. It looks like he's going to be available and ready to go even with that finger injury. So that's good for him. Last test he played, he got that brilliant hundred.

25:10But I do think it's a big, big test for a series for Ben Stokes, actually. The batter, not the captain. I think all three of us admire Ben Stokes, the captain, the bowler. I think he has been wonderful when fit, but his stats have fallen off a cliff as a batter. And the position now at number seven, I think that's the right thing. I think it's good to give Jamie Smith, the way he started this summer, a bit more responsibility. And Stokes' batting with the tail has been excellent. I found it fascinating the interview you did with McCullen because you asked, have you and the captain fallen out? And he didn't.

25:40And then you went on to, did you blink in that ashes? And he went, yes. and what I would love to have known, what does he mean by that? Did he want Stokes to play the way he did? And Stokes went into a shell. I think Cummins said...

25:54Nasser Hussain:Well, he had the lowest strike rate of any batter on either side. Day two, Adelaide, 40 degrees. And Cummins said, we're quite happy if you're blocking it. Just twisting it. Exactly. So what Ben Stokes... Because we've seen two versions. When Baz Ball first started, Mark Butcher was very critical of Ben. Teeing off, running, getting caught mid-off. And then we've seen recently the other version. I think the best Ben to do, and I think Steve James has written about it today, is just see ball, hit ball, react. That's when he's at his best. Play the situation. Go back to Headingley and that knock.

26:28The way he played before Leach came out. The way he played after. The way he played here against Australia in that trying to chase it down in the Ashes game. That's where he's at his best. And that will send a real message to the team and what they're missing.

26:41Nasser Hussain:they're not playing the situation yeah i mean it might help him in that regard because as you say the situation is more likely to be before him isn't it seven and with the tail behind him it there may be absolutely it might be black and white you know often you get in there and you're not quite sure what you have to do but coming in at seven with the tail behind him it's probably going to be straightforward for him and that might help free him up in a way i suspect that's why they've made that shift. Yeah, and I think outside of Joe Root, to me, having watched England a lot over the last three, four, I think defensively, he's the next best player in the team.

27:18I think his defensive technique and the way he reads the bowling and the ball in general, I think it's second to only Root in the side, to be honest with you. He has no issue batting time if he puts his mind to it, but he can also hurt you and hurt you very, very quickly. More than some of the great all-rounders we've ever seen in the game, I think. But it's just the moments. And as you say, if the game's laid out in front of him by the time he gets out there, we might start to see the best of Ben with the bat again. How much of Emilio Gay, as Dooley calls him, Emiliano? It just sounds better.

27:53If he gets 100 in, and you've been in the back of the box calling him Emiliano, and we go, Emiliano Gay, 100, I think we never were for Sky again. How much have you seen of him? What do you make of him?

28:06Nasser Hussain:A fair bit. You know, obviously every game is streamed now, isn't it? So whether you see players live, you always have the ability to catch up on the streams. He made that move up north to Durham. It's quite interesting that, I mean, he's batting three for Durham. I think he should be opening. You know, Alex Lees, whose probably days are done at the highest level, I think he could easily move to three and allow Emilio Gay to open with Ben McKinney. But that's the interesting one, that they've got Ben McKinney there and Emilio Gay. And there were probably five or six in the mix for the opener's position amongst the Mesa tribe as well from Glamorgan.

28:43Nasser Hussain:But all the words that you heard about those two were that McKinney has got the highest ceiling, to use a key in McCollumism, and is the more talented. Emilio Gay is the one who's put the runs on the board. And in a way, that selection reflects maybe a slight change of emphasis that we see from Stokes and McCollum. Nice for Northampton as well, to a county that's often like Northampton, to have Duckett and Gay who came through them. And I was actually speaking, you mentioned Steve James. I was speaking to Jamo the other day who made his debut here as an opener. There are very few England openers that have made their debut here in recent years.

29:24Nasser Hussain:I think there's only eight actually all told. So making your debut is hard enough anyway. making it here at Lourdes which probably is the test you want to play in it's going to be quite a test for him and because we'll come on to New Zealand in a minute but New Zealand have got an excellent seam attack it's not going to be easy but as you say I think you look through the first class numbers his numbers are as good as most that they were looking at and is he ready to go now, has he got the runs on the board now that's what they've looked at they're not looking at 2, 3, 4 years time where McKinney might be maybe more of an option.

30:02They're saying, who can we get in now? They had to make one change, didn't they? They were probably forced into it a little bit.

30:10Nasser Hussain:They had to make a change, if only to show that there is some accountability for performance and results. They needed to, and obviously Zach was the one to miss out, and they had to find someone else. I also think it's a shame that he's been batting at three. I think if you're looking from a, you know, what are you trying to do as a county side? You're trying to produce England players. If that's not your first goal, I know the county championship. I know Division I, Division II, all of this stuff. But if your role, you know, we talked a little, I think, two or three years ago about this. The role of Northern Districts, where I played my cricket, was to produce New Zealand players.

30:49If we won titles along the way, great. but our job as an association is to produce high quality players that go on and play for New Zealand and if we can do that we will benefit throughout we'll have heroes we'll have people coming through wanting to play for us if every county in this country has not got that right at the top of their list there is something wrong and so Alex Lee should be saying hey we want England players there's this opening spot you're there I'm going to drop to three I'm going to take some responsibility and I'm going to give you every opportunity to play cricket for England

31:26Nasser Hussain:Before we move on to New Zealand let's just talk about Shoi Bashir and Sonny Baker we'd expect Bashir definitely to play Baker Shoi Bashir a very interesting call isn't it and in a way encapsulates some of the confusion around this set up the fact that they'd invested so much time and energy into him then partly you know your understandable reasons that he had that finger injury broken finger against India he played very little cricket before that first test in the ashes the ashes wasn't really a spin friendly series Nathan Lyon didn't play that much either but Bashir again along with Ray and Ahmed we'll wait and see what they go with but if they go with their out and out spinner you'd expect it to be Bashir before Ray and Ahmed yeah absolutely and And it's a simple thing.

32:16He needs to be playing, and he has been playing this summer. But when you play in a test match and you play in New Zealand, I'm not playing him here because Shari Bashir needs to keep improving and he needs to keep playing. If conditions, and there's a bit of rain around this week, if conditions says four seamers, you may well go without a front-line spinner. That's not. When you get to your Test 11, as they did at the Ashes, if someone is not ready or not good enough and not bowling well enough, you have to. And that's what happened. He was unselectable, to use that phrase. So I don't have a problem with that.

32:47I do have a problem with how do you get to a stage where your spin bowler is unselectable? Where is he playing? How much is he playing? And that's the problem when you keep picking youngsters out of nowhere. Their lows and their highs are going to be so different. You've got that much to fall back on when it's difficult. Yeah, when suddenly it's not coming out right, you haven't got that experience to fall back on. So he has been playing this summer. It would have been great if it was a sunny week to continue the hot weather. Here you go. Continue your improvement. I would have gone just for Bashir because you have invested so much in him.

33:26And he just, you know, we've all had times where our form isn't great and had to be left out. Graham Gooch asked to be left out of an England side once because he wasn't batting well enough. And that is, again, as with Ollie Robinson, that is a strength of character. when you have been left out, how are you going to come back? And it'll be interesting to see how he does come back. Because this place, historically, Shane never got a five for him. It's not a big spinning paradise, but you have a role to play.

33:54Nasser Hussain:Sonny Baker, I watched at the start of the year at Hampshire, actually looked to me as though he'd improved from last year. I had a difficult introduction to international cricket. But his qualities are obviously young, pacey, full of enthusiasm, and quite skillful, actually. So he moves it both ways very well to left-handers from around the wicket. You like him? Yeah, and he gets through overs. I've noticed that he gets through 18, 20, 22, 23 over, which is a good thing from a young pace bowler's point of view. And what you look for is at the back end of the day, is he still able to bowl 87, 88?

34:27I don't mind if he's 92, 93 at the start and 87, 88 at the back end. It's when there's a big drop down to 82, 83. That's when you worry. He doesn't look like that type of player to me. He's got skills. We genuinely got the pace. It was a tough introduction, as you said, last year. And that match was the oval, was it? I think he got... Headingley. Headingley, was it? So he got smashed all about the park. But, you know, that can happen in white ball cricket. So I like him. There's a lot to like about him.

34:55Nasser Hussain:New Zealand, I'll just give you what I think they might come out as. And you can put me right, Dooley. Latham, Conway, Williamson, Ravindra, Mitchell, Blundell, Phillips, Smith, Jameson, O 'Rourke, Henry, and then Santner, or Smith, Are those the issues? Yeah, it'll be Conway and Latham at the top of the order. They're using now Henry Nichols as their sort of spare batter. So he sort of would be the next batter off the rank at the moment. And Mitchell sent his arrive, which I think they said it originally 10, 11 weeks it would take for that shoulder. He's done it in four and a half, which is quite incredible.

35:32But they'll go with Nathan Smith, I think. They have the Phillips and Ravindra options. for an off spinner and a left arm spinner if required and russian rovindra has actually been bowling relatively well of lady bold nicely through the world cup uh i thought in the subcontinent different conditions yes uh and then the the four-pronged seam attack smith included who can bat at eight jameson who can bat at nine henry at ten and then willow rourke if you've not

36:01Nasser Hussain:seen him in the flesh we saw i was there in new zealand oh yeah very quick it's awkward it's awkward sort of you think about harmison yeah just an awkward sort of a action courtney waltch when we play just sort of a little bit gangly but everything seems to come back at you uh from a right-handed point of view got genuine pace uh where does that come from i mean historically you know if you go back perhaps when we were playing or just a bit before the uh characterization Realisation of New Zealand cricket was slowish pitches, dobbers on a length. It's a long way from that. Yeah, well, I mean, that's kind of the era I pretty much grew up in, really, isn't it?

36:43Dobbers on a length. Dobbers on a length. That was kind of me, wasn't it? But I don't know exactly where it's going. The surfaces have improved. They've got harder and faster, and so they've encouraged quick bowling. And you know what it's like. The first day, day and a half in New Zealand can be very green, but they leave that grass on and leave a relatively hard base to make sure it's got pace through the innings. And Wellington is one of those places where it's very hard and generally quite fast. So they are producing some very good quick bowlers. Ben Sears is another one who's back on the track.

37:19So there's some good options there now. And I look back at that last series that we talked about when New Zealand were here, the start of basball it was bolt southie henry wagner um de grandom was here now when you've got a side coming at you a little bit i think this attack looks way more threatening because of the bounce and the height if you think about jameson o 'rourke in particular uh i think then you've got the skinny nature of smith and you've just got the skill of matt henry so to me it looks slightly better balance to take on a side who might attack the bowling a little bit more with that steep bounce um so that you know that's what i looked at that side last night i thought crikey that is a really good side it's a good side it really is yeah what are the weaknesses in that side just not having played that much test match cricket recently i'm talking about so you've got to hit the ground running here that would be the only thing um outside of that you think about glenn phillips hasn't had any red ball cricket he obviously most of the batters were played in that Ireland test match.

38:22Okay, we didn't have a great start to the first innings. Latham and Conway relatively early. Blundell, who was very good in that last series here. Mitchell had a brilliant series. Blundell had a good series as well with the bat. You know, another 100 for him, which was fantastic. And Ratchin Ravindra getting runs. So that's the, you know, Kane Williamson easing back into it after a coaching role in the IPL. I don't think, I don't see great weaknesses. The only thing would be the bowling attack outside of Nathan Smith all came here to Lourdes about four days ago. So they've been preparing without the test match in Ireland.

38:59But again, I don't think that's a bad thing. It's all about getting loads into you and Kyle Jamison, Willow Rourke, Henry, who just coming back from a little niggle. It was only a very slight niggle. But I think they'll all be available, fit and raring to go. And there's still a couple of days to go before they have to do anything. Where is Conway with his game? I saw he got some runs against the West Indies, didn't he? He started here on debut with that magnificent double hundred. So he's got incredibly fond memories of this ground. Where is he with his game? I've always liked him as a player.

39:28I think when he's on, great timer of the ball, through the offside in particular. What he's lost is those hands are waving. And he gets hit on the inside edge of the bat way too often. And on the back thigh, his hands just waft. And you see the hand come off the bat far too often for my liking. something he's really working hard on is is not going at the ball uh so where he where is he at he's still not back to the absolute best but he's got some fight in him devon conway and and he loves that combination at the top with latham two left handers they complement each other very very well uh and you know he'd be looking at this thinking it might be my last tour of england you know i started it well here yeah can i gain some confidence from that and likely to be canes

40:15Nasser Hussain:last tour of England as well. As he kind of said, where he sees his test career, because as you mentioned, you've got a big tour of Australia as well. He's actually got a modest record here for New Zealand's greatest player. I think the only average is 25 in England. Yeah, he's struggled in England. And it's something that will be eating away at him. You talk to Kane, he'll always talk about the team. He'll always talk, but he knows the numbers. Don't worry about it. He's another one of those great players. He knows the numbers. He will know he hasn't had a good record in England. It's something he will want to rectify.

40:54I think he will go to Australia on that Test Series as well. How much he plays after that, these are the two things I think would be a little bit of unfinished business for him. Having me whitewashed 3-0 last time here in New Zealand, Kane will know the numbers there and he'll want to rectify that, I think. and you want to finish on a high we know how talented he is he's just been he is new zealand's

41:18Nasser Hussain:greatest ever batter because we started the podcast talking about martin crowe's the unveiling of the portrait here he'd be regarded as i suppose as the godfather of new zealand batting but kane williamson i think so um you look at the sheer numbers marty ended up averaging 46 and change I think in test match cricket, Kane will average over 50 through his career with 33 hundreds, I think now. He is New Zealand's greatest ever batter and he'll probably still say that Martin is. But both different types of players, but both incredibly skillful. And Kane's been a wonderful, wonderful servant for New Zealand cricket.

42:03And he's got real ties here in England too. So I wouldn't be surprised if down the track this is where he might take up residence. Most of you do, don't you, Julian? Tell us about it. Sorry, I don't know how long we've got left. But once he goes, eventually, the depth to New Zealand cricket, it's always been able to replace great bowlers with great batters, crow, etc. Do you see that continuing? They took quite a different squad to Ireland. Dean Foxcroft, for instance, who's had a few opportunities. He's got 98 in that test match in Ireland. He's more of a, you know, not Cain Williamson. He's an off spinner who's a very, very good batter.

42:41Young players coming through. It'll be my first time back in New Zealand at the end of this year when Sky have, New Zealand have the cricket rights back and we've got an India series. So I'll be interested to see the development in and around the first class game. From what I've seen of the young players coming through and the guys I've talked to, there is talent. And with only six franchises, six first class sides, the talent shines through. And you can see it. And the pathway to international cricket, although it's a steep one, it's not as steep because you've got a lot of very good players in a small pool of first-class players.

43:17Nasser Hussain:Final questions, really. On the back of a lot of franchise cricket and T20 cricket, I mentioned that New Zealand have only played half a dozen tests since England were last there on the tour of New Zealand. I think you've played against Zimbabwe, West Indies, Ireland. and therefore is there a great excitement, do you think, given that you play relatively little test cricket and, of course, this man? Yeah, I've already had quite a few messages actually asking for some interviews and things from back home, which is unusual. You know, you get it now and then when New Zealand are away. I get it a little bit in India, but this has been a little different.

43:53I think the expectations, you know, the timing's quite nice, a late-night start in New Zealand. If you want to wake up early and catch the last session, you can do that. So I think there's an air of anticipation and excitement around it. It's got a little bit of jeopardy to it with Brendan, with Tim Southie's been involved in the England set-up, Jeetan Patel. Seems like New Zealanders everywhere, doesn't it? What's going on? So, you know, there's a little bit of that as well. They're interested to see how England sort of bounce back from the ashes. As a New Zealand cricket fan, the one thing you watch outside of New Zealand cricket is the Ashes.

44:33And I can say that across the board. A lot of New Zealand cricket fans take huge interest in watching the Ashes. And generally, they just want to see Australia get beaten because they're Kiwis. And England haven't been able to do it. And so maybe they just, you know, it's the one tour that they really get behind. And for you, our 150th Test match here, we are looking forward to it. We always look forward to the first test of the summer. There's a women's test as well here. Three here. Yeah. Are you as confident and hopeful? You're a historian of the game. Looking forward now, as opposed to looking back, are you hopeful for Test match cricket?

45:12Nasser Hussain:I hate to finish on a downbeat. I'm not that hopeful for Test cricket down the line just because of the trends in the game, the incentives in the game, which are skewed all the way from first class and Red Bull cricket. So, I mean, it's going to be around for a while yet, for sure. And there'll be a lot of very good cricket to watch. Way down the line, I'm not that confident. But let's not finish on a completely downbeat. It's not a doubt, but we might not be here anyway. It'll see us out, I think. England's first test for, what, five months since Sydney. So they've got a lot to do and a lot to prove.

45:50Nasser Hussain:And we're very much looking forward to it this week.

45:56You