Fleming & Root get England's Test roles. What now for Brook? Could Stokes return?

0:01Yeah, gone! Gone, he gets his fairytale ending! An epic way to go to a Test Match 100. The London Spirit of First Time win is the most remarkable thing you'll probably ever see in cricket. 604 and final Test wicket for Stuart Ford. It's India who will win the T20 World Cup. Can you believe it? Moments after Stokes' international career is coming to an end. Another wicket for this incredible cricketer. There is never a dull week in English cricket. Big announcements this week of a new coach, Stephen Fleming, and a new captain, Joe Root. Well, a new old captain in Joe Root, given that he's done the job more than anybody else already.

0:49But there is a heavy Kiwi presence at the heart of the English game, with Fleming joining McCollum and Tim Southey and Jeet and Patel in the ranks. And they're not bad role models, I suppose. They're generally pretty good eggs, with the odd exception. Simon Dool, how are you? Very well, thank you. Lovely introduction, Ash. Morning to you. Morning to NASA. Yeah, NASA, you're back from your month-long holiday. Where are you? I had five days off, and in those five days, you went rogue. There was no WhatsApp saying, Nass in your absence do you mind if I do Aaron Finch and talk all things white ball cricket and franchise cricket I just got messages says the pod is not good not as good without you Nass please hurry back so I'm back I'm in Chelmsford I've got a weekend of 100 action coming up in London actually I got uh Lords tomorrow Oval Sunday you're in Manchester for the game tonight I'm up from Cardiff where I was on Wednesday for a game between the Welsh Fire and the Trent Rockets when there was a plethora of no balls.

2:01Some extraordinarily bad cricket from the home team. Anyway, we're not going to talk that. We're going to talk English cricket and new coaches and new captives. Let's start with Stephen Fleming. I think that was the really big news of the week. and the search for the coach finally ended. And Dooley, you know him as well as anybody. Tell us a bit about Phlegm. Yeah, look, I mean, he was my captain through from, I think when Lee German lost the job, 97. Phlegm took over, still relatively young at that stage. But I mean, you guys would have played that series in New Zealand and then again. I think Nass, you played the series in England post that.

2:45He's a terrific thinker of the game. I think he was New Zealand's best captain, probably since Geoff Howarth. There was that argument that Howarth was a terrific captain who played a lot of cricket at Surrey, didn't he, Geoff Howarth. But Stephen Fleming's ability to read a game, to understand his players, I think, was one of the biggest things that I took from him. His way of approaching getting players out was quite unique. He was sort of one of the first guys I remember to use his strength. You know, the way we took on the Aussies under his captaincy, the Damian Martin type players that love to cut, it allowed them to cut, but put a couple of feelers there.

3:27There was a lot to like about the way his manner was in and around the team. And just from a leadership point of view, he was an exceptional captain and a great thinker of the game. And I think he's transformed that through to his coaching career. he's developed a lot of seriously talented players in that Indian setup coming through the Chennai Super Kings ranks and I think you know people have sort of said I mean you guys will have an opinion on it I suppose he hasn't done red ball coaching but he's been an exceptionally successful coach over a long period of time and I think it's a good appointment he's close with Brendan.

4:07So I think there'd be a nice synergy between the white ball and the red ball set up. And I'm sure they would have talked quite a lot leading into the appointment. So yeah, I wasn't surprised. I think once they sort of ruled Andy Flower out, to me, there was only a couple of other options and he seemed to be right at the top of the list. So I think it's a really good appointment. And as I say, he's a wonderful thing. He's got a good knowledge of the county game and a good knowledge of English cricket, having played a lot here and been here a lot as well. I got a message from a mate in New Zealand saying that Fleming and McCollum are tighter than Nassar's wallet.

4:47I mean, that's kind of a good thing. They've got to work together. But I also think one of the challenges or one of the weaknesses of the McCollum coaching setup was actually the lack of challenge from time to time. I thought it was a strength initially and that he dragged everybody with him. But what he needed to be was challenge more consistently by the coaches around him as weaknesses started to show and limitations started to show. So obviously the fact that they get on McCollum and Fleming is a good thing, but they're going to have to kind of challenge each other as well, aren't they? They are.

5:34I mean, especially next year, obviously. Next year is both an ashes year and a 50-over World Cup year. So you can't have the two of them against each other. And that's why I think if you have two friends, two people who've played with each other, one person's captain the other, they're in business together, it's much better to have people of a similar mindset working together and trying to work through those challenges of schedule and when you want Brooke to be playing and when you want the multi-format players to be playing which games they're going to be playing in so but I agree with everything Dooley said there I played against Fleming a lot and he was probably one of the best captains if not the best captain I played against to be honest it's calm demeanor out there is thinking, his man management, everything about Phlem.

6:24I looked at Phlem and was in awe of him at times, to be honest. I thought the way he went about leading that New Zealand and made that New Zealand side incredibly successful. Yes, they had some very fine cricketers, but he was right at the forefront of that team and the way he led them. So I think it's a good choice. He doesn't tick every box. Very rarely do you have someone come in that does tick every single box. And the biggest box he doesn't tick, obviously, and I don't know if you think how much of an issue you think this is, is that he hasn't done any red ball coaching. Is there a difference between white ball coaching?

7:02He hasn't done any international coaching either. What is the difference between coaching an IPL side very successfully for a number of years since 2009 to being an international red ball coach? I don't think there's any difference between red ball and white ball. I think coaching is about managing people and getting the best out of people. And that doesn't change across formats. In terms of the IPL, I think coaching a franchise like CSK, there are some similarities to doing the international job. One is obviously the scrutiny and the pressure of an IPL franchise because it's a big thing there in India, obviously.

7:45And every move is scrutinized and debated. And I don't think you last as long as he did at a franchise like that. Was it 18 years or thereabouts as a coach? You don't last as long as that without A, being successful, and B, being able to manage people in the right way. I think there's a subtle difference with the national side, say coaching England to coaching the CSK franchise, is the criticism. I mean, I think in India sometimes around the IPL, although the moves are very debated and certainly debated kind of by the general population, I think the kind of key pundits are a bit less, they'll offer a bit less scrutiny around the decisions than perhaps happens in England where people just, you know, will criticise if needs be.

8:36So I think there's a subtle difference there, but I think the general scrutiny and pressure is not dissimilar from leading a franchise to leading a national team. What about the... Go on, Dooley. I think that that's where Stephen will be very good. I mean, look, he's worked with us in the media a little bit as well. He's done a bit of television on and off in that time. And I think he will handle the media very, very well. He's very honest. every time we talk to him during an IPL at CSK, he's openly honest. They've won. They've had really bad years. They had a couple of awful years where they could hardly win a game.

9:16And he's very upfront. He's a guy that will take that responsibility if the team aren't going well. He'll front the media. He'll do that job. And then if the team are going well, then he leaves it to those that have done the job on the field, which is exactly what you want, isn't it? And that's been the McCollum way. I mean, in the IPL as well, do you? Would you agree that the scrutiny and pressure is similar, but there's just a subtle difference leading a national team where I think the whole country is kind of more invested in how the team is going? And I think also following on from the last 18 months where there was a great sort of hype and excitement, wasn't there, when Brendan came on board.

9:58And I think at the time it was what England cricket needed. I think England cricket needed someone like Brendan McCullum at the time to unlock the shackles a little bit. I think it was, stale's the wrong word, but it was a very uptight environment and almost players fearing for their place in the team. And what Brendan was able to do was allow that freedom. And at the end, the freedom probably cost him the results. But I think for the first 18 months to two years, you saw what England cricket could be. And from that point on, they needed some coaching. They needed some genuine coaching. and strategy and maybe a way to move forward after unlocking the ability that we all know is there.

10:40God, there's so much ability in and around this country from a playing point of view, but it just seemed like it was very much within and held in. And so he unlocked that. Then the coaching was required, and that's where I think they've sort of, and the strategy. And they fell short a little bit there, I think, Nass, in the last 18 months, and that's what has ultimately probably cost Brendan the job. that's now Stephen's role to take those players and he mentioned in his in his sort of statement didn't he Harry Brook in particular who I think we all believe has got an immense ceiling but has probably gone downhill a little bit in the last 18 months from a test playing point of view so I think that's going to be Stephen's biggest sort of role and probably where he he pits himself at the top level That's what I was going to ask you really I mean firstly the character I think is perfect because I think it would have been two.

11:32One of the other candidates was obviously someone like Justin Langer that was being talked about. I think that would have been too big a jump to go from the McCullum vibe era to the Justin Langer incredible intensity kicking over bins in the Headingley dressing room sort of era. So I think he sits perfectly in the middle of that. But what about from what you know of him and his time at CSK and how he was as a player, would he be a technical coach? That's the other thing that's been leveled at the McCullum era, was that there wasn't much technical coaching going in? Or will he have to bring in people that are more technical coaches?

12:08A little bit of both. I mean, as I said earlier, he has developed... I mean, what CSK have done so well over a long period of time is they've sort of brought these academy players through. They've developed young, talented players in Chennai over a long period of time. Now, some of those have gone on to play at other franchises, courtesy of mini auctions and major auctions and the likes, because they had a vastly experienced team. So a lot of those younger guys couldn't get through. But he had a major role in developing a lot of that young talent that's come through the CSK, sort of lower ranks academies and that sort of thing.

12:42So technically, I think very, very sound. Really understands batting. I mean, you guys, we talked about, you played against him. I think if he wasn't captain, I think Stephen Fleming would have averaged mid to late 40s with the bat. I think we didn't quite see the best of him as a batter because he had such a high role as the captain of New Zealand and did a brilliant job of it. But technically very, very sound. And I think when you talk to, you know, Matthew Hayden, for instance, Faf Duplessis, who spent a lot of time there, those sort of guys, is Murray Vijay in the earlier days as well. They were so adamant that Stephen had helped them enormously from a technical point of view and just understanding the game as well.

13:29So I think that's where he can take this England team forward. And the combination with Joe is going to be an interesting one because Stephen was sort of at that place where he's probably New Zealand's best player, which Joe is, England's best player, and takes on the captaincy role as well. So that's going to be the interesting dynamic, I guess, Saf, working. And I mean, my first question was, what's more important to England cricket, Joe Root's runs or Joe Root's captaincy? And you guys are probably way more equipped to answer that. Well, we'll come on to Joe Root in a minute. I just, I mean, because that's another topic in itself, an interesting one.

14:08There's a couple of issues I want to just finish up around Fleming. I mean, I made the quip at the start of this podcast about the number of Kiwis that are in there. I don't have a problem with Kiwis being in there, by the way. But is it a problem that there are so few English coaches in there and English candidates? I understand that they spoke to eight or nine people or interviewed eight or nine people for the role, amongst them Jonathan Trott, Richard Dawson. I think Gareth Batty's name was in there as well. But surely one of Stephen Fleming's jobs has to be that the next time this coaching job comes up, that there is not the amount of head scratching going on around who are the possible English candidates.

14:53We have to build a stronger culture of English coaching around the national setup, don't we? I mean, we've got McCollum, Fleming, Jeetan Patel, Tim Southey. what is going on. The fact that, you know, we haven't got enough for as many English candidates in there. Is that a coaching... Was that Brendan's job to bring in his coaching staff? Because I think there's an issue... Well, not an issue, but there's something the ECB should be looking at. If they appoint Stephen Fleming, which they have now, they should be saying to him, your second-in-command must be English. So whether that is... I think they should be saying to him, one of your jobs here is to create within your coaching setup a stronger English quality to it all so that there is a natural progression there when Stephen Fleming and Brendan McCullum moves.

15:51I'm not saying you give it to an English coach, but there has to be strong candidates in that conversation, surely. Yeah, I slightly disagree. I would just say I've always just said pick the best people. But it's surely having some English candidates. Stephen Fleming's job is to come in, as Brendan McCollum found out in the end, and what did Brendan say when the results go against you? That's when you go. And Stephen Fleming's job is to win games of Test Match cricket for England, and the best way to do that. And his job is not to worry about how many English coaches there are. That's the ECB's job.

16:32and the ECB need to maneuver it. So I mean, like we're doing the 100 at the moment. How many English coaches are in the 100? They always seem to go for overseas coaches. Now you sold off some of the ownership of the 100, so it's up to the owners to decide who they want. But I do see your point in that you can at times, like English coaches have been sent out to the IPL to sit on the bench and to learn. I do think there are opportunities to go and sit in and around the England dressing room and learn from some of these coaches. But I do think their job is to pick the best coaches, the best technical coaches, the best coaches that the players want to work with and to win games of cricket for England.

17:14And the bigger picture is for the ECB. Now, obviously, in English cricket, a lot of the candidates go off into the media and there are other opportunities. And also recently, the facts tell you that the best coaches have been, the ones that have been most successful, whether it be Fletcher, Flower, Bayliss. They've been foreign coaches. So I think Fleming's job is just to start winning test matches again. Well, it's to start as well at some point. And he's on holiday now for the next three months, shouldn't he be here? The process was probably... I think we've all talked about the fact that if they were going to let Brendan go, it probably should have happened straight after the Atchers and we wouldn't be at this point now.

18:02The way it happened after the New Zealand series, whether that was an opportunity for him to try and keep his job and clearly that didn't go well. So they've left themselves in a little bit of a hole when you're asking an international coach with a family and to up sticks within two or three weeks and move himself to the UK. I think it was probably a bridge too far. I've heard that he might be in and around the Pakistan test matches And just allow Marcus Droskothic to do the job for the interim time Is that correct? Have you heard that that's going to be the case? I mean, I think he's probably going to take the opportunity to have a look and see what's what And I don't actually have a problem with that I'd much prefer to get the right on it It's quite similar, isn't it, Nasta 1999 when Duncan Fletcher was appointed and he had a job to finish with Glamorgan.

19:00So we had a shambolic summer under your cap. We waited for Duncan Fletcher to come in and turn it all around. Six months later. You've got all those words in the right order, but just not quite the right names. But yeah, listen, I was going to say it's very similar. Not just that, but also Duncan was worried about his test match coaching because he'd never played test match cricket. so he was a bit more worried about red ball cricket than white ball cricket um and then like you say duncan was had this job and he was very loyal dun uh to glamorgan but he was involved behind the scenes there were phone calls with me there were meetings at old trafford when the wheels were coming off um he was very very involved so i'm sure fleming and it's actually not the decision of stephen fleming stephen fleming is offered the job he says yep i'm i'd like to take the job but I've spent x amount of years 18 years away with the IPL I have promised my family the next three or four months is that okay so the decision really is Rob Key and when once Fleming says that Rob Key either has to say no that's not okay this is the job you take it next week and you're there for the Pakistan series or no that's fine so Rob Key feels that's absolutely fine but I do think with all these other decisions surely Fleming must have been involved in who's going to be the next captain in Joe Root and surely Fleming will be a huge part of all the decision making you don't want you know selection now you don't want players coming in now that Fleming's sort of sitting there going I'm not so sure about that so every single decision right from now that from Fleming's appointment he has to have a massive say in and massively involved in and even if he's not there in person, he needs to be running the show from a distance.

20:50So how does that work within the England system then from a coach's point of view, now that Stephen's been appointed, does he choose all of his backroom staff or does the ECB have these contracts in place with Triscoffick, with Cheetan Patel, I know Tim Southey's was a series-by-series contract, it wasn't actually a full-time ECB gig. All of the staff under Stephen Fleming, How does that normally work in an ECB situation? I think it's a bit of both, isn't it? It's the conversation. I don't actually know the ins and outs of each person's contractual arrangements, but that's going to be a conversation, isn't it, between Robbie and Stephen Fleming.

21:31Clearly, with the split coaches now, which is what we've gone to, it's never really worked for England before, but I believe in split coaches just because of the scheduling and the challenges. but the key to that split coaching arrangement is first of the person who sits above them, Rob Key, allowing each of these coaches a kind of even chance of success, if you like, and then underneath each of those coaches to build the support staff that they will work with. Because again, given England's schedule, I think it's very tough to just have the same people across formats. I think each coach needs to build his own team.

22:16So I think that will be part of the conversation between Key and Fleming as they look to reorder that staff. And there is an opportunity, therefore, for some of those English candidates, whether it's Trot, Dawson, Gareth Batty, whoever, to maybe be brought in under Fleming, under McCollum, whatever, to start to build slightly distinct staffs with an element of an English feel to them.

22:53Hi there, I'm Pete Graves. And while you're enjoying this show, I just wanted to let you know that we are back with another round of Transfer Talk, where we'll be talking about who's on the move, where they're going, what they could bring to your team. So if you don't already, please like and subscribe. You can watch 3Sky TV on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. See you soon.

23:20Well, it's probably a good moment to turn on to Joe Root then because obviously Fleming has got a fair few things in his in-tray to sort out. But the first one was around the conversation around the captaincy. They've gone for root over Brook. I mean, the choices were pretty thin. I described Joe as the least worst option. I think he's the right choice, but it's not necessarily an appealing choice. No, listen, I'm sitting here now thinking, what does Harry Brook think right now? Vice captain of the Test match side. when Stopes was disciplined and banned for a game they couldn't give it to him they it's sort of made out it's an interim thing we're going to give it to Joe Root in this time of trouble and now Stopes has gone for good they have to make a decision and your vice captain is overlooked now whether Harry wanted it or not with a schedule and that's a different thing forget the schedule and forget World Cup year and Ashes but specifically did he want the job and if not why not As I've always said, it's the best job in English cricket.

24:27But English test match captain, he would have it across four matches. But England cricket captain, best job in English cricket. Why didn't he want it? And if he did want it, why was he overlooked? And then he's got to look at himself and say, why was I overlooked? Because actually, Ath, and you may disagree with this, and I know this is one subject we're not quite on the same page with, is that I think Harry Brook is a very good captain. when I watch him in white ball cricket he's now taken them to number one in the t20 rankings he's just beaten India in the 50 over series it's affected his batting in a good way he looks really the responsibility but with the flair and all the shots he's got he has a great body language on the field you watch him you know who's in charge of England's white ball quickly he's become England's white ball captain and he's doing it very well um but obviously with him are all these off field um antics and that sort of immaturity that you need them you need the mature harry brooke to come out and it's been lacking and that's why i'm a little bit disappointed in harry himself that i think there's a very good captain in there and i think it's a missed opportunity and one of the things in fleming's intray will be to sit with harry brooke and duly mentioned the batting side of it, but actually saying we've had to go back to someone that may not actually want to do it.

25:53The lad that will do anything for English cricket in Joe Rue is doing it again for English cricket because we couldn't trust you to do the job. Sort yourself out, Harry, because I think you should be the next England Test cricket captain. Well, I think to Harry Brook, playing under Fleming will be a good thing because Harry Brook has only ever known Brendan McCollum as a coach. They obviously get on fantastically well, Brook and McCollum. And my view was that you had to leave Brook with the white ball leadership. But I think actually playing under a different coach would be a good thing. It might just broaden his horizons and give him a sense that there are other ways to go about things.

26:37Because as I say, He's only ever known Brendan McCollum. I wouldn't have given it Brook. I would have left Harry Brook to lead England's white ball cricket. And therefore, you know, you couldn't give it Jacob Bethel because he's 22, although Stephen Fleming himself was only 23 when he took over the New Zealand job. But I think Bethel's got too much to prove and it's too soon. And that leaves you with Joe Rue, which is, and that's why I describe it as the least worst option. It's not the kind of option that's jumping out at you. But given the alternatives, I think that's where I would have gone as well.

27:12Can I ask you, you wouldn't have given it to Brook. Is that because you don't think Harry Brook is a good captain or you don't think he's mature enough to be an England Test match captain? Do you not rate Harry Brook as a captain? I rate his tactical feel for the game, but I think captains is about far more than that. I think actually the tactical feel to the game is not unimportant. You need to have a tactical feel for the game. But I think captaincy and leadership is about so much more than that. It's about getting the best out of your players. It's having a feel for driving an organization forward.

27:50And I don't think he's shown enough of that yet. And I also think, as a three-format player, captaining across three formats is simply too much. He is, along with Joffre Archer, I suppose, and Jacob Bethel at the moment, how many three-format players are there? There are not many. He's one. He's leading across two. I think if you give him, as you describe, the most high profile, the most precious job of all, leading the Test match team, I think that's too much. So you put all that together, a combination of too much of a workload and a burden and a responsibility on him, plus the fact that I don't think he should have it right now, and I'm not giving it in.

28:34Do you not think people can change? I mean, I hate talking about myself. I hate talking about myself, but all these things were levelled at me when I went into the interview for the England cricket captaincy job. I know what was said to various people at the ECB. Stay clear of this individual he's an angry youth he doesn't think of other players in the dressing room he will let you down people I have to change because I became England cricket captain I agree can an individual not change yeah I agree that people can develop and change and and you have to give people the opportunity to do that and he's got that opportunity right now he is leading England in T20 cricket, which is about the only side that is functioning well at the moment, and he's leading in England in ODI cricket, and we've got a 50-over World Cup next year.

29:25So it's not as though I don't think Harry Brook should be leading some elements of England's cricket. He's got, he's captaining two of the teams, and they're two important teams, and there's a World Cup coming. I don't believe that adding to that burden right now is a sensible thing. I think playing under Fleming will give him a different perspective and will allow that growth and maturity that you're talking about so that in a year or two's time if you then need to look at that job again then there might be an opportunity for him to do it yeah I agree in sort of both ways to be honest I think it'd be very very good learning under Stephen Fleming from a captaincy leadership point of view and just his man management will do Harry Brook.

30:11I think the world are good. I think it's impossible, Nass, at the moment in world cricket to captain all three formats. I just think the workload. So from your point then, would you have them leave the T20 or leave the 50 over stuff when they're going so well? Do you honestly think it's possible to captain all three formats at international level with the scheduling? I'm amazed at that. And maybe it's all future tours, planning, and I never know with the ECB how far ahead and what all these things are said the two things i'm amazed that one is with schedules is that they still play ludicrous games of cricket in a format that there is no world cup so or just before the ashes last time they're playing a white ball series in new zealand randomly or this summer you would have you know it's a world cup coming up and you have five t20s against india and three odis it's like that's the wrong way around so firstly i think that needs to be looked at but from now onwards because the next world cup is a 50 over world cup we are predominantly playing 50 over games and then we'll look at the t20 and secondly your captain harry brooke you're captaining in the 50 over side and you're captaining the test match side because next year i'm not downgrading anything else next year the two most important thing for english fans are the 50 over world cup in south africa zimbabwe namibia and the ashes and the T20 side, they can do what they want.

31:34Jacob Bethel, future planning. We talk about future planning with coaches, future planning with leaders. Jacob Bethel, you take that T20 side and do that for a little while. So I do think you have to think out of the box a little bit. Is it that difficult? I mean, Graham Smith at a very young age did everything. Michael Atherton at a very young age did everything. We've all done it. Captain in your country for a World Cup and an Ashes. Is it that difficult? we've all done it it's like yeah there's certain players players are in one part world and you will miss the odd game but for me I'm still old school if you're England cricket captain and leave all the the other stuff leave the you know for Fleming to sort out all the selection and all the all the bits that you have to do but just rock up and captain your side I think schedules are vastly different to how they were when when we were around the added format of T20, just the amount of international cricket there is, the amount of touring.