Lady luck shines on England, plus a Rugby World Cup winner talks coaching and backyard cricket!

15:48Ath:It's an extraordinary thing, really. 80-odd thousand people in at Twickenham. I don't know what the viewing figures were. They were upwards of 7 million, I think, for the day. I mean, did that surprise you in any way, shape or form? or were you expecting the magnitude of the occasion? For those of us that have experienced Twickenham at full capacity, it's quite amazing. I mean, I've had varying days there. I've had successful days. I've had days where the Test match has been an absolute grind and in autumn where it's just like a coliseum of people. but you can imagine the opposition coming in on the bus and in a dreary sort of Northern Hemisphere day with rain and you feel the intensity.

16:42I don't think we could imagine what the day was going to be like. There's the first experience of the amount of people that you see walking towards the ground on the bus, but then the walk from the bus is probably something that I've never ever experienced before in my life. The seas of people out of the southwest area, just the magnitude of people and just the energetic intensity. It wasn't sort of like an aggressive intensity, if you like, that sometimes you possibly experience when you go there for the men's test rugby. that you know that waiting for that encounter of the first kind of like contact but it was just such an energy and then obviously Sophie who sung beforehand just created an energy um through living you know by a prayer and I think it was um uh pumped me up kind of like uh from Black Eyed Peas and wow yeah the the whole stadium was just electric and then post-performance and celebrations, the retention of the people.

17:55I've never seen that before at Twickenham. Normally, it just empties pretty quickly. So that's just some of the moments that I think were the differential of some past experiences there and something to treasure for life.

18:10Ath:I mean, it's not a new story, the growth of women's sport. More generally, we've seen it in cricket. We've seen full houses at the MCG for a women's game. Obviously, the Lionesses shortly before your team. I mean, did they take inspiration from the Lionesses in the build-up to the tournament and during it? Yeah, definitely did. They followed them certainly during our pre-season. And then obviously once the Lionesses finished, there was Chloe Kelly that came, I think, to the Northampton match. and I think there was, you know, Lucy came to our after party and so there's some definitely connections there and the girls, you know, were certainly inspired by them and clearly obviously being in the summer, I guess it was our turn to do the same thing, I guess.

19:10So I think they feed off each other really well and that's kind of like, I guess, where the movement is at the moment, like the Lionesses, the Red Roses, we have the ability to change the future of the sport and the future of football and rugby. So they're significant moments really because what they're doing now is certainly going to create more motion and more movement for the future. I mean, I guess the challenge for rugby is another World Cup in Australia in 29 There was a fantastic moment at Twickenham. How do we maintain that momentum? How do we continue that motion between now and a World Cup?

19:56And, you know, world rugby need England rugby and England rugby needs them. But there's two countries in the world that currently play rugby with great crowds, and that's England and France. How we get the other countries to be able to experience that as well is really important for the growth of the game.

20:14Ath:Can I ask you about your approach as a head coach on a day like that? I mean, it's a huge occasion. In my experience, most coaches try and, and indeed most players, try and play down the magnitude of occasion when you get such a big crowd, big day like that. I was just interested to hear Brendan McCollum recently. He was asked about The Ashes and he said it's going to be the biggest series of all our lives. In a way, he was flipping what seems to me to be the modern way, which is to play something down. How did you approach the day itself? Yeah, in context, I think we're probably very similar.

20:59I've always spoken to the girls that let's not make this any bigger than what it actually is it's already big so a couple of cards that played our way is the fact is that majority of the girls that took the field have had four or five occasions playing at Twicket in different capacities but not certainly at 80 ,000 people but they definitely had experiences there before so I think that was always going to to be a bit of gold for us and so we didn't really need to talk too much about that and so the week was very very normal we had a good plan it was clear I think because the girls finally got themselves to the to the destination of earning the right to contest the final I think they were just excited to be able to finish it off.

21:58But I don't speak generally before we hop on the bus. The girls sort of take over on game day. But the night before in Jersey presentation, I just said, look, I'll get out of your way, girls. I'll let you finish what you got started in Chester in 23. And the only thing that was for them to see was a montage of photos of where we'd come from in our climb, I guess, over the last three years. And there was just one photo to it.

22:27Ath:You had one photo left to put in the montage. That's it, yeah. And that was it, really. It was that simple. Can I ask about, I mean, you're essentially a man in a woman's will. You're coaching the women's team, obviously. We've seen in cricket where the England women had a man coaching them, John Lewis. and they were getting a little bit of criticism during the Ashes around fitness and those kind of areas. Is it harder for a male coach in a female environment to drill female athletes as hard as they might do in a male environment? I've just seen Charlotte Edwards come in as a female coach to the England cricket team, women's team.

23:18Ath:and is it easier for a female coach in that regard or not? I think it is if you come in premeditated and you come in with pre-existing process that has worked for you in the men's game. I think rather than asking the girls to meet me, I went and met them, if you like, and then as a result of meeting them and understanding the goodness in the process because there's a lot that we're doing right, like they've been dominant for a long period of time but hadn't achieved the world champions for 11 years. So somebody gave me a good piece of advice really, like where there's common context, like use your experience and be decisive with that, but where there's uncommon context, just shut up, stay quiet, observe, learn.

24:19I was very fortunate that a lot of the staff had been in two cycles, so I was able to draw upon them. And then because I didn't premeditate anything, I just wanted the girls to find my presence safe, authentic, safe, and I wanted them to express themselves. So when it was on, we're on, when it's off, it's important to be yourself. And I think that was really the simplicity around our environment. I think it was just very normal and easy. That's what I set out to do and ultimately gave them a very clear vision and then obviously established initially some values that they brought to life, which have guided us through the last three years.

25:14Ath:I read an interview you did after the final where a couple of comments. You said coaching the Roses has changed my life and changed the way I think. I just wondered whether you could put a little bit of meat on the bone there. In what ways have they changed you fundamentally? I think the way they've changed me is what have I joined in as much with the fun and the off field so in other words as the leader I sort of set the tone I guess and then by setting the tone and allowing that freedom to be themselves and express themselves but ultimately still maintain a standard or grow the standard. I just sort of jumped in with them a lot more and had fun with them off the field, which is probably something, you know, like I would be calculated in the men's game.

26:16I've obviously been quirky in some aspects of my presentations in the men's game as well, but certainly just felt really, really comfortable. And I think because, you know, like anyone, you have to build trust first. You can't go anywhere without building trust. And I think I was able to get that early enough. And then you just become emotionally connected to them. You know, I've got daughters as well. So I understand a little bit around that. But when you've got the magnitude of a team that's, you know, of 60 people and pretty close to, you know, 80 % of it is female, why not join them and have fun with them in the process?

27:09Ath:They used to call you Mad Mitch, I think. Do they call you Mellow Mitch now? I think my mates in the England team used to call me Mad Mitch in a funny way, I think. but yeah Mallow Mitch probably I don't know I just think there's a big difference between setting out as a coach when you're 34 trying to prove yourself versus a 61 year old that's been around the block a few times and I think you just learn to identify what a team needs and the team needs, you know, right at the minute it needed somebody like myself to be able to create that kind of environment. So, yeah, really happy to be able to turn up every day.

28:01I don't really, as you know, being a professional, we've always loved what we've done, but you don't really kind of work, do you? It's kind of something you love doing. And, yeah, like I'm just very fortunate that I can turn up every day and not have to premeditate anything. I mean, I do plan, but you just have to look into somebody's eyes and that feeling gives you the opportunity of whether they need help or need support or they need to be communicated with or they're on it. So a lot of it comes down to observation skills and feeling before you even need to open your mouth.

28:39Ath:Can I take you back? I mean, New Plymouth, you were born, weren't you, I think, in New Zealand? You were close to, yeah, just down the road. Right. Your parents were basketball players or fans? I'm not sure which. And you produced, obviously, a cricketer and you played a bit of basketball, I think, in your younger days. But in, you know, late 70s, early 80s, was it difficult to avoid the rugby, which must have acted as a kind of magnet for everybody, anybody with half a bit of talent in sport? Was it difficult to avoid that, rugby being the magnet for everybody then? Well, see, mum and dad were basketballers.

29:23Mum was a very good basketballer. She played for the North Island, I think, and competed in New Zealand Trials. Dad was a provincial basketballer. and then mum was also a New Zealand champion marching, a marcher, and then she was a New Zealand champion marching coach in those days when marching was quite significant. So I think we saw a lot of movies, Paul and I, my brother, by being first introduced to a tournament and there were timeouts or there were socials for your parents, so there was a ball in our hand competing with other kids and then obviously when you're tiny you're trying to get the ball and the goal and you know all those things and then you'd whistled up and back into the car and taken home for a bath and then you'd be looking forward to the next day because there was another day of tournament so that was kind of like the way that I was brought up and then my father wasn't a rugby players so I wasn't exposed to rugby until probably around 12 when I made a provincial team but I didn't sort of start and then I went to high school and then I played both and then all of a sudden the school had an intersection where exams were more important so you had to choose between one or the other.

30:49Obviously, I chose basketball, and then we made the secondary school nationals. And in my last year, my first 15 mates, my seventh form mates said, why don't you come play first 15? So I chose that over basketball. But then we had the opportunity of making the New Zealand secondary schools tournament, and the school gave me a dispensation. So I actually eventually ended up following both sports. And then obviously when I got into around 19, my National League basketball coach noticed a few scratches on my face. And he said to me, hey, mate, are you not playing two sports? And I said, yeah, I am.

31:30He says, you're going to have to make a choice. So I hopped on my flatmate's scooter and went to a rugby club in Hamilton called Fraser Tech and signed a membership form and played for the senior B's one weekend and made the seniors the following weekend. And that was at the age of 20. and since then rugby has been my life.

31:49Ath:And is New Zealand still as big a rugby nation as it was? That's a really good question. Having not lived there for 21 years now, I'd like to think that probably with the exposure and the growth of other sports, a five-year-old is probably not immediately thinking about rugby whereas I think a five-year-old in my time was definitely exposed to rugby, whether your father or your family, your uncles and that played it or not. So, yeah, I just think there's far too much choice these days. And I think people see it as a hard sport to stay disciplined and to evolve and grow. So it's, yeah, like if you look back on it, like I'd say I'd never change anything.

32:47But if you're starting again and you had to make it your career, which we never, ever thought that was ever going to be possible because I worked for the whole of my career. So, yeah, I would say I think things have changed big time. I think the entry into the game would probably be a lot later.

33:09Ath:The reason I ask is, I mean, there's been one or two instances in sport When you look at smaller nations that have competed in a way beyond their resources So you think Wales rugby way back, think West Indies in cricket And there have been precipitous declines for some teams like that Empires that have just fallen and, you know, almost capitulated Could you ever see that happening in rugby in New Zealand? Or is the sport just so, it may not be as embedded as it was, but the structures are so strong, the ethos around the sport is so strong that even if there are resource challenges, rugby will always be a strong thing in New Zealand.

33:57see the longer I go in the game um you see every country's DNA still exists every country has almost like a a rugby DNA that plays rugby like New Zealand have always attacked space uh played with width you you still see that DNA um the um and then the society of rugby was you played at school, you played at a club, and then if you're good enough to play for your club, then you're selected for your province. And then if you're selected for your province, then you would then go to an All Blacks or an All Black trial. Two systems existed within provincial rugby. There was obviously a league to win, a national championship to win, but there was also the Ranfilly Shield before that time, which was kind of like a, similar to an FA Cup, where you're kind of like the challenger challenges the person that has it, but it's only challenged seven times in the year.

35:05And if you win it, then you have to carry on the remaining challenges at home until you're the holder of it at the end of the year. And that trophy was folklore. It's got amazing history. it's made numerous All Blacks. But the society of New Zealand rugby, professional rugby, now has changed. A lot of these really good players are coming from schools. They are hurdling club rugby. And then they are sometimes hurdling MPC, the national championship, and going into super rugby and commencing their professional starting point. And to me, therefore, there's an argument around are the current players in New Zealand playing enough rugby to be able to become better players?

35:59So there's definitely some changes and some real issues there in terms of depth. and maybe that's why you're seeing the All Blacks being a little bit more inconsistent in recent years is that they don't have the 16 to 23 like some of the other countries do that use that depth. They have a very good starting 15, but as soon as they get injuries, the depth is tested and quite young. So yeah, they've definitely got challenges in that area because the society of the way that you're brought up in rugby has changed. I mean, my rugby club in the 80s was our nightclub as well. There was no such thing in those days that you'd go to town.

36:43So the whole community was involved, whereas there's so much more choice these days and definitely opportunities for young New Zealanders to play overseas.

37:00Ath:Hello, Andy Scott here, host of the Sky Sports Toe-to-Toe podcast. alongside a host of top guests we're here every tuesday bringing you the very latest boxing news and we go toe-to-toe with the biggest names in the sport so if you love boxing join me on toe-to-toe wherever you listen to your podcasts that's toe-to-toe a sky sports podcast

37:35Ath:Your coaching career, you mentioned there that your playing career really coincided with the game as an amateur game. You had to have another job. You went pretty much straight into coaching afterwards. Was that partly because there were still some things left? You may have had a very decorated career and you played for New Zealand, but not necessarily in tests. Was there still some things that you wanted to fulfil out of the game? Or was it simply, you know, you love the game and that's what you wanted to do, coach? Or was it you couldn't think of anything else to do? Or was it because as the game then started to move into a professional sphere, the opportunities for coaches grew compared to what there had been before?

38:25there's there's probably a significant story in my life that probably led to that but it was it was kind of like um if I can just sell it really quickly I was 29 um I was captain of my province and we were national champions um and we'd won the ranfury shield so we we finally had toppled Auckland after they had a long era of about eight and a half years. And I was the captain of that team. I think I was the centurion at that particular time, but I hadn't played for my country. I don't even think I had had an all-black troll. And I was working as a quantity surveyor and I had two young children.

39:06So I was in that sort of like crossroads. And this lady gave me a call and to this day I've never been able to thank that lady. She gave me a call and I'm sure if she was further away I would have never have gone but she was only two or three blocks away from the offices and she said look any chance of having a chat with you, what works for you? And so I walked down there and it was around about three o 'clock in the afternoon and sat down and she said look I've been following your career, what else do you want to achieve in your career? And she was obviously into leadership and stuff. That was her reasoning.

39:48And I said, look, I probably wouldn't mind playing an all-black trial just to see whether I'm good enough to play against the rest. But I've been playing against them for nine years anyway. And she said, is that not somewhat self-limiting? And I said, well, what what do you mean? And she says, well, but you're taking step by step, which is okay, but have you not thought about thinking about the landing? You know, like the analogy of a steel, a steel well. And I go, no, not really. What do you mean? She said, well, where did the All Blacks play next? And I said, oh, at the end of the year tour in Britain, you know, and this is like, well, I think we were talking in March, so it seemed quite a long way away.

40:32And she says, well, why don't you make that tour to Britain at the end of the year? And I said, well, yeah, I have to play a trial, don't I? She says, no, again, you're limiting yourself step by step. Anyway, I made that team to Britain at the end of the year. And since that little chat, maybe that because I got a taste of international football and I didn't get a lot of it is that and then obviously I then finished to concentrate on my quantity surveying career and then rugby went professional and then I was a captain for a long period of time of some very strong personalities and some very smart personalities and I had seemed to be sort of like the mediator in the middle that maybe coaching is my call.

41:26why don't I use those leadership skills why don't I pass on to others to realise their potential that I didn't realise because I realised it too late so that was a significant moment in my life as a sports person

41:45Ath:You've had an unbelievable coaching career if you look at the span of it you've been involved in virtually every country that plays rugby as far as I can see. I mean, but you've moved around a lot. Is coaching the influence of a coach? Is that a short-term thing? Is that the, I mean, obviously you move on from different teams for different reasons, but can a coach have an impact short-term? Obviously, yes, but is it limiting in professional sport or can you have an influence for the longer term? actually I was talking to my wife's sister who's over at the moment and her husband coaches as well and they that we were just comparing how they early on in there uh when her husband was coaching and that um they were close to home a lot um whereas I haven't always been able to come go out of my back doorstep to uh to go coaching which I think is the most ideal and perfect situation.

42:49I probably have that as the closest now. So I don't think you really have a choice or a right as a coach of where, how long you're going to last, where you're going to be. It's that kind of life. As that 20 year old that I spoke about before that decided that rugby was going to be my future in my life. I also chose to go and play rugby in France, you know, like in an off season for two uh two seasons um never been out of New Zealand in my life uh certainly didn't learn French at school and sort of got exposed to the world at a young age and it's sort of probably opened my eyes up that you know like whenever you go and live you know live live as the Romans do live live how people live in that country and I think that's always been held being in in good stead um younger when I was younger coach I don't think I've I was very very good at managing upstairs.

43:48So I was quite happy in the performance space, but I think, you know, it's an acquired skill having to deal with upstairs. And I think most coaches, experienced coaches, also probably support me here is that the CEO who signed your signature is generally, you know, like it creates a great connection. You work together, same with the president or the chairman of that club. But as soon as those portfolios or those chairs change, it often becomes a difficult challenge for a coach to stay in their reign because obviously you weren't their signature. So that requires a rebuilding of a relationship and that doesn't always work in the right way because you see things differently and you're building that relationship of trust again.

44:41and sometimes that doesn't occur.

44:44Ath:I mean, you've spoken in the past about that horrendous episode in Johannesburg, how that kind of changed your perspective, if you like. I mean, you're obviously a hugely different coach now than you would have been at SAIL, you know, where you started, which is my neck of the woods. But also, sport has changed, hasn't it? You know, you might have changed, but the sporting environment has changed, and the kind of coach you might have been 30 years ago probably, you know, is not what players would accept now. The whole environment has slightly shifted. Yeah, Mike, if you look back, like I started in the 90s, mid-90s, so I wasn't a product of professionalism.

45:31professionalism so I was a product of of uh working um and and training and playing on on a weekend um I was lucky enough that I eventually went to three or four trainings a week um and then I had to find independent time to build myself physically to get ahead of others to be um to become you know like an international player so things are different whereas now the younger coaches coming from a professional system. So I had leadership skills. Clearly, did I have them defined or understand what that meant? I don't think I did, but I acted like a leader and somebody else saw that in me and so did my peers.

46:17But that was all I had really to go into coaching in rugby. So to have been in 30-odd years now, I definitely have had to evolve. I've had to learn. I've had to learn the hard way and I've had to refine my process to be able to enable myself to communicate effectively with a new generation of rugby players. And I think that's a testament of your coaching is you have to evolve. I would have been dead and buried, like you said, if I'd been the sale coach or I continued to coach like I did even five years ago. So for me, some coaches can't get past their ego and they carry on with the same obstinate ways which will cost them.

47:10I've also dropped my ego as well and coached, went back to being senior assistant with Eddie Jones and Jamie Joseph and worked for Lee Black at Wasps. So for me, I was prepared to go backwards to relearn, to be able to come forward and be a better coach. And I guess that's what you see now as a result of evolving and taking myself backwards to learn again has allowed me to come again.

47:40Ath:There are quite a lot of similarities, I imagine, between coaching and parenting. And of course, you're the parent of an international cricketer, Daryl. We share some similarities in that my lad plays pro sport as well, not be it to the level of your boy. But first of all, how proud are you as a parent of Daryl's achievements? Yeah, no, he's a guy that loves his crickety. You could tell he always loved it. He was obviously quite handy at rugby, but loved to kick goals and that sort of stuff. and he was quite a good distributor, but I don't think he had the speed for it, but he always just loved cricket.

48:29I remember when we came back home from England the first time and this development officer from Northern Districts goes, hey, I want to make your son into a batter. I said, no, you go for it, mate. Like, I wouldn't have a clue. Anyway, he said, no, no, no, you're part of it. You know, like you're the parent, so you're part of it. and I said what do you mean you're the part of it you said well you need to throw these sort of lines to him frequently so that he that he can develop so um in my stupidity and my creative mind I we obviously created a father-to-son backyard game where it was 12 balls I think six fast ones six slow ones and you had to get 15 runs but the the mitigation was that um if you hit it over the fence it was like even though it was a six it was negative four and you had to go and get the the ball from the next door neighbor's slobbering dog we had a crazy net I think as a slip the on side didn't have too much depth so ball below hit was runs so as you could imagine Daryl would mow the pitch create the crease and then when he thought I'd change the rules the game was over so his poor mum Kay used to get the reaction of dad's cheating but that was all we did as father and son and then he's obviously gone on to make it his career.

50:03Ath:It's not an easy game, is it, cricket, for a parent? If you're the parent of a young batter, it's not an easy game to watch. It's quite a nerve-wracking game. More so, I think, than football and rugby, where they're kind of part of a whole and they don't stand out so much. But if your son or daughter walks to the middle and suddenly gets their middle pole knocked out first ball, it's quite a difficult sport for parents. How involved were you when Daryl was playing competitively? As in, were you an avid watcher? Mike, I'm so glad you brought that up. I am the most terrible watcher of cricket. It's like, it's kind of when he's in, like he's in.

50:51So to give you some idea, I've got a mate in Perth who's a Kiwi guy who's been a miner and he now owns contracting firms and stuff. And he had an analogy where he'd walk, it's like him walking into his business over the sand dunes and has a look, sees if everything's okay and then either stays or goes. I'm very much that kind of like cricket watcher. So I often sometimes would have a connection and say, just give us a tip off if he's in or whatever, and then drive down and come over the sand dunes, if you like, and have a look. Yeah, it's a hard game, isn't it? Because one mistake or one decision and your day's over as a batsman.

51:40Um, you know, so, yeah, I was very fortunate to watch him in his prep school, um, at Scarborough and in Perth. Um, I really enjoyed that club environment. That was great for him. Um, he was very fortunate to play with a lot of really good players. A lot of those players have played international cricket since. And then to have Justin Langer in your, in your changing room and, you know, like in the last years of, um, of school, uh, school cricket was fascinating. And then also the school competition in Perth between the school sides is quite exceptional. So Paul Darrell, when I chose to go to the Western Force as their inaugural coach, he was immersed in the school in Hamilton, St.

52:28Paul's. And I think he was already in the first 11. So there was no way he was coming. He was saying, like, Dad, I'm going to board. I said, DJ, why don't you think about just coming over and having a look at Hale College in Perth? And obviously he chose to come. And there was 18 grass cricket nets. And he goes, oh, I'll come. And then he didn't like the fact that he had to play in the second 11, obviously, as most kids wouldn't on the first weekend. But it's amazing how sport sometimes allows you to fit into a school because I think he got 150 or something for the second 11 that first weekend, which allowed him to sort of immerse himself into the school fully.

53:14And that's kind of like where he started. And then he played at the Wacker, I think, as a young finishing off school and took a four for, I think, that day to win his first club championship. And that was kind of like where I think he started to get the belief.

53:34Ath:Do you think former athletes find it a little easier as parents of young sporting athletes to kind of step away from it a little bit because they've been through it, they know how hard it is and perhaps have seen the dangers of parents and coaches getting kind of too involved? Do you think it's a bit easier if you've played the game and seen the pitfalls? it's interesting like you say that because I think I was talking to Sky Sports Rugby before the final, the World Cup final and I think I said or remember saying that I think it's our families and friends that actually feel the pressure more than us because they can't control the process, they've got no idea of the process and I think you know us as sporting parents we kind of understand the process that our that our children are experiencing so you can you can leave them with that um if they choose to ask you about that process or anything with it around it then you're there for you're for advice and that but ultimately they're ultimately the end of the day you're there to support them and and make sure that you know they're they're okay and um so yeah it's a it's a balancing act but But certainly, yeah, it's important to get out of the way, I think.

55:03Ath:A couple of final questions, if I may. I mean, you've been a great coach yourself. You are a great coach. You've worked with some very interesting coaches in England, with Eddie Jones and Clive Woodward. We're fascinated by what we see with Brendan McCollum and the England cricket team at the moment, this kind of what they call basball approach, and a very almost hands-offish approach to coaching, to give the players freedom to express themselves and kind of instil a bit of joy. I wondered how much you'd observed what Brendan, who's a fellow New Zealander, how much you'd observed what he's doing with the England team and how much it interested you.

55:48Yeah, I've never met Brendan before, but I've obviously watched him a lot. he I have this perception that he's like he was an attacking cricketer he has an attacking mindset I think he's risk adverse but more importantly he looks for the opportunity for success and I think he communicates really well in that space and then as a result of that perception I see I see a guy that tries again to take the pressure off the changing room by being available, but he's kind of like out of the way. And I think that reduces the anxiety. I think clearly his communication is in advance as well. So he's a good communicator and he's constantly trying to look to take the pressure off the players and reduce their anxiety, which allows them to free up and be all in, isn't it?

56:54We have a saying in the Red Roses, you know, like take the handbrake off, you know, like we need people all in. We can't afford anyone to be cautious. And some people in your environments, as you know, they say they're all in, but they're not. But unless you create a culture where they can express themselves and authentically be themselves, then they won't be all in. So I think he's very much doing that from what I can see.

57:19Ath:And final question, if I may, England, obviously about to go to Australia for the Ashes. You've coached in Australia. You've coached against Australia. The feeling is that England are going to be as aggressive as they possibly can be. In rugby, is that the way you had to go to beat Australia? Did you kind of have to go as hard and aggressively as possible? Or, you know, did things change and evolve depending on the team you were playing against in the moment you were in? it's yeah like i said earlier mike um around how every country has a has a dna and it and it just like sticks with them regardless of generations i mean the the analogy i have is i think australians are great competitors um they definitely like to win um but they also are probably totally risk adverse so they they definitely seek opportunity to be successful and if they can find just one small little gap you know of opportunity then they'll force their way through it and they're all they're built like that every sporting team in their nation they can go through you know bad periods of um of performance but all they all they look for is one small opportunity and they generally buy into that and it's amazing how they have success.

58:47So, yeah, they're a wonderful sporting nation, I think. And, yeah, Brendan's philosophy and some of the stuff that I've talked about and the way that I, where I've evolved to sits in a very similar space. So, yeah, they'll be a difficult opponent, definitely, and they'll seek that small gap that maybe England, you're off for them and conversely, England have to attack it, don't they, the whole time. They can't at any point let off or show weakness or become risk adverse.

59:29Ath:Thanks very much for your time. England are about to play New Zealand in some white ball games. Will you be getting jet lag overnight? Are you going to be tuning in to watch Darrell against England or you just leave it be now? No, definitely we'll have a look. I hope they get to play a bit of cricket. I think they started quite early with the T20 against Aussie and had plenty of rain. But yeah, no, definitely we'll tune in. I think Daryl's always had a special relationship playing against England. I mean, he had his first test way back when he was called in the latter part of his career. so England cricket is a special country for him to play against and he's also got some good mates from being at Lancashire and in the Northern Leagues so yeah it'll be good to watch him Well it's great to catch up with you, thank you for your time obviously and huge congratulations on that fantastic win a fortnight or so ago and good luck for what comes next Thank you, Mike.