Nas and Ath look ahead to the fifth Ashes Test | Jacob Bethell joins the pod!

11:59Ath:A complete clash. But it's going to your point about there is that little bit of groupthink and a bit of, you know, one size fits all. And it might be just time for that different kind of voice. And also somebody, you know, what Brendan McCollum's great strength is he makes players feel 10 feet tall and feel good about themselves. But I think we all agree here that, you know, standards have slipped a little bit in performance. So somebody to drive a, you know, a culture of getting back to the standards that Ben Stokes just talked about it there in the press conference I was sat in two years ago.

12:39Ath:Results were strong, performance was strong, and there's no doubt in the last 12 months that that has slipped, and he's aware of that. So it can't just be as we were, no change at all. They've got to think about how to get back to where they were.

12:53Nas:Do you think they need to kiss and make up a little bit with county cricket? They have put themselves separate from county cricket and almost said, we are not picking from that. And by definition of that, or moving it on from that, sort of saying we don't believe in what you're doing, do you think they need to be a little bit of actually this is hugely important to English cricket?

13:12Ath:Well, I've said for a while, I think it's very dangerous to have a complete disconnect between the England team and your domestic structure. Because one in the end feeds the other. You know, you can certainly say, well, we're not getting exactly what we need out of county cricket, So we're going to be inventive around how we choose players and how we select players. And, you know, you've just had a good chat with Jacob Bethel, which we'll go to in a minute. But, you know, he's the classic example. But I do think that there needs to be a strong link between the domestic set-up and the England team, because in the end, that's where your players are coming from.

13:48Ath:And that's kind of what happens here. And, you know, we're just moving it on from England. It does feel like there's going to be significant change to the Australian team. This is an ageing team. By the time the next Ashes comes around in 27, how many of them will be around? One of them's already announced his retirement, Usman Khawaja.

14:07Nas:Yeah, I mean, hugely significant cricketer for Australia on and off the pitch, to be honest. Wonderful player. I know recently the stats have gone against him. But if you look at his stats at the top of the order, I know you always tell us how difficult opening the batting is. But in an era now, and you look around the world of how many opening batters have been successful, Kawaja has been one of the most successful. His stats are at the top of the order and also the last three or four years as we've highlighted. It has done quite a bit in Australia. A wonderful player to watch as well. My boy will always text me.

14:38Nas:He texts me on this tour going when he was getting that 82 in Adelaide. He just said, I love watching Kawaja bat. He spoke about that in the press conference. That's one of the things that's given him the most pleasure is when people stop him and say, I enjoy watching you bat. You look good on the eye. You use that exact sort of phrase and he does. when he's playing well and he has at times played I mean that time the edge baston game they won recently played beautifully I think he was on the field for five days he is very pleasing on the eye and a very significant player off the field as well and he spoke about that yesterday it was always that last press conference was always going to be like that with us he's always stood up for people that he believes doesn't have a voice and he realizes is his role and importance as a Muslim in Australia.

15:22Nas:So that's the way it was always going to end. And, you know, I think there'll be a lot of people. This is where he started, wasn't it? And this is where it will end. And I think there'll be a lot of emotion here this week.

15:34Ath:Yeah, I think he used to come as a very young boy and, you know, kind of come for the last hour and they'd open up the ground and open the gates for free. He'd come in as a young boy, obviously moved to Queensland. but this is a significant place for him, made his debut here. I think his first Ashes 100 was here. Those twin hundreds in 2022 in that Ashes Test match that kind of gave him another go, really, a late career boost. A very significant cricketer, first Muslim Test cricketer for Australia. Our congratulations to Usman Khawaja on his career and his retirement from Test cricket. And I was thinking about retirements because people do it in very different ways.

16:16Ath:and there was some very sad news over Christmas and New Year about Damian Martin, who we played against. He's pretty much a contemporary of ours. I think he's like 54, maybe. We're only three years older than that, but he's in an induced coma, and our very best wishes to him. But he did it very differently, didn't he? He just slipped away from international cricket after that famous Test match in Adelaide in 2006-07. I like that slightly enigmatic just quietly don't let anybody know just slip away he did it very differently people do do it differently Steve Waugh gave himself the whole series as a send off

16:56Nas:classy really from Damian Martin and that's how I'd sum him up in this pod we've mentioned two of the best timers of a cricket ball beautiful player to watch Gower and Damian Martin he used to stand at backward point and the ball just used to go whizzing past you with minimal effort So we wish Marto all the best, a quick recovery. Fingers crossed for you, mate.

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18:11Ath:Well, speaking of stylish and attractive players to watch, Jacob Bethel is on the cusp of an international career. There's no doubt about his ability and talent. And he's an easy on the eye player as well. And you caught up with him for 15 minutes.

18:30Nas:Jacob, Happy New Year to you. Before we look ahead to this Sydney Test match, let's have a look back at Melbourne. Two memorable days and a win that was much needed. How do you look back on those two days? Yeah, definitely two memorable days. Obviously, coming on the right side of the result was great. But yeah, I was tired after. It felt like everything happened at a million miles an hour. Obviously, over the course of the two days, a lot of wickets fell and the pitch played pretty difficult for the batters. But yeah, it was an incredible test match and incredible to be a part of in front of the MCG crowd.

19:02Did you walk in the dressing room at the end and say,

19:04Nas:what's the fuss all about, lads? 15 years we've tried to win out here. You pop in for your first Ashes test and there you go. Yeah, I know. No, I didn't quite say that. Ruti brought it up and I was like, no, we'll just leave that one. But yeah, it was a great match and obviously nice to be one for one. What did you make of the pitch? Because the ICC have rated that pitch unsatisfactory. Did you deem it and feel it was unsatisfactory? Well, you see the result of the game. Two days with actually not bad batting. There were so many balls in that wicket that just purely got batters out, not batters getting themselves out.

19:40So yeah, I think it did do a bit too much and we didn't really get to see how the pitch developed because of how quickly the wickets fell. So we'll never really know how it would have ended up playing over the course of the five days. But yeah, it definitely did a bit too much early doors.

19:53Nas:What's your mindset when you see a surface like that? Because you came in on debut at the Hagley Oval, your first game, and it was doing a lot in that first innings and you actually tried to grind out a score. How do you balance survival and putting pressure back on bowlers? yeah I think if I look back at um Hagley first off I feel like my game is probably in a slightly different um space now I've obviously played another just over a year of cricket um in and around the England stuff and yeah my kind of way about going about it then was I was going to try and grind it out and get through but when it's doing that much there's kind of always going to be a ball with your name on it um at some stage so why not try and get a few more runs runs before But yeah, it's not being reckless.

20:37It's having the options of identifying the main way you are going to get out, try and negate that as much as possible. And mainly just try and put the bowlers, something in their head rather than just letting them land it on a length when it is going to do quite a lot.

20:51Nas:Can I ask you about that phrase you used there, a ball with your name on it? Greg Chappell, great Australian cricketer and batter, wrote a piece in The Age and on Crick Info recently where he sort of eviscerated the modern batter for not the skill, but the mindset of, well, this is too tricky. This is too difficult and not showing enough fight and character. Would you say that's fair? Not just that article, but do you think there are times when the ball is doing a lot? You can, as a team, as batters around the world can show a bit more fight and character. I think it depends individually how you want to go about it as a team I think if if it is doing a lot the bowlers are going to bowl in areas that are challenging and and fight might be for some people try and block as many as possible and just not get out but at the end of the day you're not going to score any runs doing that or you're not going to get any pressure off of them and not going to get them thinking about something else rather than just trying to land it on that that good length in and around that channel um so I think I think the word fight is is thrown around quite a lot I think I kind of see fighters as trying to you're fighting at the end of the day you're fighting against the bowler he's trying to get you out you're trying to score runs against him so fight is trying to put pressure back on him some people felt you should start the ashes but what it did mean was that you had three matches to prepare for that sit on the sidelines and watch and learn.

22:16Nas:I know and I've heard that you're meticulous in your preparation. What did you learn watching, specifically as a left-handed batter, the challenges with this Australian attack? The one thing I noticed, not so much in Perth because of how bouncy the wicket and obviously the way that test match unfolded, but especially in Brisbane and Adelaide, that just the relentlessness of the attack, you don't get any looseners, matter of fact. You'd watch Stark and Cummins take the new ball, and then Boland comes on and lands the first one on pretty much a handkerchief. And you just realise that they're not going to miss.

22:54So you actually have to try and create an option or create a scoring area. Not recklessly, but they're not going to miss. So try and just put them off it a bit more.

23:05Nas:What about your position in the order, batting at three? You were secondings four. First of all, were you told about the cast move? Were you asked about the car's move to go ahead of you? Or were you just told Brydon Carr's going to bat ahead of you? No, I was just told when I got up to the viewing area and then I was just told that Carsey was going to go and try and put us ahead of the game. But to be honest, Ducky and Zach ended up doing that pretty well. They had a 50-run partnership in no time. So we were kind of ready, had a head start in that chase. And the number three spot, Mark Ramprakash written a piece in The Guardian a couple of days ago about how he feels that they're letting you down a bit, the ECB, by pushing you so far up the order.

23:45Nas:Young players should come in in the middle order and then gradually move the way up. How do you feel about that? I mean, it's very easy for you to say, I'll bat in any position, but what do you think right now is the best position for you? I don't really believe in that young players should come in the middle order. I want to be a top order batter throughout my career. and if I want to do it at some stage, why not do it now? I feel like my game's suited. I feel like my mindset's suited to batting up the order. There will be learnings along the way and kind of things that I'll figure out as I do it more and more.

24:21But yeah, I like up the top of the order. It creates, obviously, you've got the best bowlers bowling at a favourable time for them, but it also creates scoring options, especially over here when that kookaburra gets quite soft and it actually becomes quite hard to score later on in the innings. Yeah, when they've got their four catches behind the wicket and lots of gaps, it's actually quite nice to bat.

24:46Nas:And the captain before that game at Melbourne, he spoke about, obviously, the headlines of the Noosa week and everything that was going on off the field. He spoke about putting a protective arm around the team. How important was it you all stuck together leading up to that MCG test? Because you could come here now to Sydney, 4-0 down, and those stories would be regurgitated and continuing, you've sort of put those to bed a bit. Yeah, definitely. I think, to be honest, quite a lot of us don't really look at the outside noise. And yeah, Stokesley was great and Baz especially were just keeping us tight.

25:21It's something that they've been priding themselves on for the last three or four years that they've taken over. And yeah, nothing changed. It was just stay tight. We know what we're trying to do as a team and don't really listen to anyone on the outside. and yeah that that kind of helped us to get that result for sure you don't listen to anyone i mean

25:41Nas:because of that this tour there's been a lot of days off so there's a lot of time on your own doing things you're a young man social media i know zach crawley says he doesn't do much of it are you someone that stays off it completely or if you've had a good day a little sneak look at what people are saying no i i try to stay i have social media um but yeah in and around games i'd stay off it. I don't really, I know I'm pretty good. I don't really need praise when I do well, or I know people are probably going to say critique something if I'm struggling. So I think, yeah, I think throughout my short career so far, I've stayed off it and just kind of gone on how I felt and how the people most important around the group have felt, how I'm going in terms of coaches, other players.

26:28And I think I'll try and keep it that way for as long as possible.

26:30Nas:It's been an incredible 18 months or so for you. Are you someone who stops and goes, crikey, I've captained England, youngest ever male captain of England, a multi-format player. I've been playing in Australia, won an Ashes game. Do you stop and look and think, crikey, this is going really well or are you constantly driven to moving forward? I'd say I'm constantly driven to moving forward and getting better. Not so much onto the next thing, but just gradually getting better and better and hopefully see those results compounding in the future. But I have had time to reflect, especially after that first, you had the summer and then winter into the Caribbean, New Zealand.

27:08Everything came pretty quickly. I played in the Big Bash and then IPL, that kind of stuff, straight back into the English summer. And definitely like after that English summer, I felt that I felt in a really great place after the IPL. And then felt like I'd kind of tapered off a little bit throughout that summer without playing a massive amount of cricket. and I just had a little look at myself and thought, no, it's not the way to go about it. I need to continue getting better. And yeah, I think that would definitely be a learning going forward.

27:40Nas:So what would you have done differently in that year? Because it's a very easy thing to say, but the problem with being a multi-format player is that everyone wants a piece of you. White Ball England, White Ball RCB, the 100, Test Match cricket. How do you manage all of that so that you're giving each format the due diligence that it deserves? I think it's pretty tough just with the landscape of cricket nowadays in terms of the sheer volume of cricket that one player can play. I think in terms of the actual scheduling, it's a nightmare. But in terms of actually adapting to each different format, I think my game is pretty suited to all of them if my mind's in the right space.

28:25I think that's the biggest thing. when I definitely find the first couple of T20 games I go back into it just you have to click that mindset back into kind of T20 mode and then 50 over you taper it down a little bit more and then test matches you almost go into a completely different kind of um it's like a that zone that you're in just um you versus the bowler for a long period of time which I haven't mastered yet by any means I'm still looking to to get much better at that but yeah I think the main thing if if I want to play three formats for for a long time is one keep the body fit which I try as much as possible to do and then to make sure that that my mind's on in terms of switching

29:08Nas:in between formats seamlessly so easy for oldens like me to say oh you should come back from the IPL and you should have played that test match against Zimbabwe but you're sitting in a dressing room with Andy Flower one of the greatest coaches there's ever been Virat Kohli one of the greatest batters there's ever been you are playing in the format and in a franchise tournament that is the best in the world whose decision is it is it your decision and how difficult is a decision to say do you know what there's a test match going on at Trembridge I need to go there it must be a very difficult decision to make yeah it's a difficult decision I mean once I'm you're actually selected in the IPA you're not allowed to be pulled back um other than injury and and what's not but that experience I had over those two months was actually I was a much better cricketer when I left India than when I went to India that like you said around Virat learning from him not just him but Andy Flower Moe Bobat was was great those two together is a hell of a combination in terms of just watching how they prep and prepare a team to go out there on the field.

30:21But yeah, even just facing, they've got unbelievable net bowlers all the time, spinners, you're facing different conditions with every ground you go to, you're batting in the middle. I know I only played two games, but I think the practice I got and the kind of learnings I got from being in and around that cauldron of India and the IPL was something that's priceless.

30:42Nas:Did it help the other day at Melbourne? 90 ,000 pressure crowd, Aussies, you know, in your face, must have helped just been around an environment of such a massive tournament and big crowds. Yeah, definitely. I think I said it early after the game that you have 50 ,000 people in Chinaswami in Bengaluru and it feels like 150 ,000 and that kind of cauldron. And yeah, definitely, I'm not going to say it felt the same. The MCG is obviously a lot bigger, but I knew what I'm able to get out of myself in times like that. And when there is big occasions and stuff like that, I had that backing from myself that I knew that I could keep everything the same.

31:22Nas:So how difficult is it to map this year ahead? Because you're in at the number three slot now, unless Brydon Karsk gets it forever. But you're going to have the IPL again. you're going to have that first test against New Zealand a few days after if RCB go all the way which they could you're then going to have a test series you're then going to have the 100 and centrally contracted players have to play in the 100 two days after the 100 you're going to have a test series hopefully against Pakistan it's all well and good people saying well you only played four Red Bull first class games last year I think you faced 497 deliveries at home last year in all formats so you were undercooked going into the India test you were undercooked but how do you solve this problem when everyone wants a piece of you have you are you mapping out your year ahead or not to be honest I haven't I haven't mapped it out yet I first of all was focusing on this right now and then I've got about eight nine days um before Sri Lanka um to kind of have a little bit of a reset and I'll probably have a think about it then but to be honest at the end of the day it still happens to be selection all that kind of stuff all I'm focusing on now is every game I play for England or whoever I play for to do as as well as I can and get continue to cement a spot in the team but yeah if there is going to be a lot of cricket I'm prepared to play all of it it's better than not being having all these choices correct I think I think and do all do all fogies like me do we make far too much of it do you know all the chat about well they've got to be playing they've got to be playing match practice red ball match practice to be ready for a red ball game or does the modern young cricketer like you just go that's a load of nonsense now as long as I'm batting whatever format and hitting some red balls in the nets that's fine I think so I think the the stuff around match practice and batting in matches is massive that you'll never get the the rapid replication of that anywhere else in the nets that you can't put nearly as much pressure on yourself in the nets as you can in a game but yeah I don't really think that the format is matters as much for me personally I don't think much changes in my technique between the two is like I said before just mindset and and obviously the the shorter the game is the faster everything happens and then when you do go into that red ball frame when it's not doing all the stuff that it did in Melbourne you're in for in for longer periods but yeah I definitely think that I think the biggest thing I've found so far is when I do stop playing games takes me a little while to to get back into that um game kind of readiness i feel like i'm hitting them well in the nets and stuff like that and mentors in the nets are good but it's just games games games games and and i don't really think like you said before i don't really think it the format is matters as much let's throw it ahead to this week great venue another great venue dscg your mom and dad are here yeah they've made the long journey from barbados they were there in melbourne uh this i know the ashes are gone but this is still incredibly important and important to the team the management and all the fans that made the journey yeah definitely like you said parents are here so got to put up a performance for them um but yeah when i came into that um 11 in melbourne there was there was not a whole lot of different track the focus went from obviously trying to win the ashes to leave Australia 3-2, which was the best scenario that we could have in that situation after going 3-0 down.

35:12And that will carry on into this week, just making sure we do everything we can to leave Australia 3-2 and have on the back of two wins, which then will take and give us a lot of momentum going into that English summer. Good luck this week. Thank you very much.

35:25Ath:Young Jacob Bethel then, what did you take from that?

35:28Nas:Young in age, but has got, just got something about him actually. He's got an old head on some young shoulders there because he's very switched on just listening to him you do certain interviews and you're like you're just like this lad talks a lot of sense and he does talk a lot of sense you said about him you saw him in New Zealand I wasn't there when he made that debut about you watched him around the traps and how meticulous he and you speak to people in the restroom how meticulous he is with his organization and I got that from him I also got what we sort of look at as a negative but a huge 18 months couple of years he's had he's had everything the England captaincy of the T20 side white ball, red ball, RCB, RCB winning.

36:05Nas:He's had everything. He's enjoying the journey at the moment.

36:08Ath:You were a number three. He's coming in as a number three as a 21-year-old or whatever. Is that the place to start? Should you start lower and work your way up? I was reading a piece that Mark Ramprakash wrote the other day. What do you think?

36:22Nas:I put that to him and he was having none of it. He was like, I love batting at number three. He doesn't believe as a young player you should be eased in. I think it was one of the best things that happened to me I hate talking about myself but I think you and Bumble left field said going back at three at Edgebaston against India or something I'd never really done it and it was the making of me it gives you that bit of responsibility you're just in as well if you're a nervous starter I don't know if he is but if you're a nervous watcher and starter like I was you're just in suddenly especially with you or Butch at the top of the order you're in very quickly so I think the problem after really and it's not that all I hear all I can see is problems and not solutions he said he got it wrong last year four first class games he talked about matches as well he thinks you can get your game in order by hitting it in the nets but match practice is really important and that's something he's learned something Tendulkar Sachin Tendulkar said to me for all those runs he made on the Maidans and all the nets he had he said he would never beat anything than the matches he played growing up that's what made him a better player so but the problem math is the year ahead what's what's how do you map it out and he didn't have an answer I said are you going to map it out and he said well I don't know how I can because ECB can't drag players now out because you get a two-year ban or whatever on the IPL why would you as a young player want to leave Virat Kohli and Andy Flower and RCB but about four days after the IPL England play New Zealand about two days after the hundred England play Pakistan on in a test so if you're a multi-format player how do you map it out and keep everyone happy i mean what is the solution for jacob bethel we keep saying it's a problem what is the solution for

38:04Ath:jacob bethel there's no solution now the ecb have given away control the whole point of central contracts was to have control of your players but once they've agreed that you can have two and a half months in the ipl and the month of the hundred without that control then i don't see a particular solution so good luck to them finding one just one more question the person he's replaced Oli Pope is obviously going to have to sit out of the side now and going to have to try and get millions of runs and bang the door down and try and force his way back in somehow but England are not good enough just to draw a line on the people are they that you wouldn't say right that's the end of

38:46Nas:anybody at the moment no no especially someone like Oli Pope who has been prolific I know why you're asking this question. I think you wrote a piece quite a while ago that I will die on this hill that Olly Pope will play a lot of cricket. Did you write a piece on that? I can't remember that. I think you're a fan of his.

39:02Ath:Let's put it that way. I'm not a fan of him at number three. Oh, OK. But I think he could come back down, come back into the team lower down the order. In time, I don't believe in, you know, just an easy route back in. But I don't believe England or any team is ever good enough to just write somebody off completely. so a million runs in county cricket and an opportunity comes further down the order I could see an opportunity.

39:28Nas:I'll just ask you about that because he has always got a million runs in county cricket so how as selectors do you know and realize that someone you know you've got to come back in you've got to got to improve what your mindset and under pressure that you don't look as frenetic how do you know or you just don't know yeah selection is a gamble?

39:46Ath:There's always an element of a gamble, isn't there? You never know how people are going to react to the extra scrutiny, the higher level or whatever. Two things I'd say there. One, I'm not sure number three suits him best. He's done pretty well, actually, under Brendan McCollum, but I think he could fare better down the order. And also whether he's trying to play to a certain style in this team that may not necessarily be suitable. Anyway, that's a long way in advance and certainly no easy way back in for anybody. But I just don't like it when people say, right, that's the end of somebody, because, you know, you can always improve, can't you?

40:26Ath:You can get better, you can improve even after you've played 50 or 60 test matches, which is a lot, I grant you. But there may be opportunities for others now.

40:34Nas:One final question, and I'll ask you this at the end of this test match. I was sitting at home at the end of the last Ashes Away, and I picked up Red U Times, paid my subscription, Red U and I nearly choked on my croissant to what I was having. You were the very first one to say the headline on the Times, Silverwood out, Giles out, Root out. Do you see it different here this week? A different set up?

41:01Ath:It struck me very clearly, albeit with the mitigation of COVID and it was a difficult tour, but it struck me very clearly. that they'd reached the end of the road. And I know Joe went to captain for three more test matches in the Caribbean, but it seemed to me that that was done. And obviously that the whole change that happened after that, they did then free the England team up. I'm not sure I see it exactly the same way now. I don't think they will rip things completely up, but I am certain that there cannot be no change and there can't be the status quo. I think they have to realise that certain changes of approach in preparation and the way they go about things have to change.

41:48Ath:And I think if there's a realisation that they have to sharpen up in that regard, there is an opportunity. But that all might change after five days. We shall see. We've got five days, hopefully, of Test cricket ahead of us. It's not been a particularly good Ashes series, in my view, in terms of the quality of the cricket. it's been a bit slipshod, particularly from England, of course. But both teams have an opportunity here to put a bit of lustre on this Ashes series.

42:38or manager behind the headlines. And we're here every week on your podcast platform of choice so you can watch us across Sky Sports as well on Sky Sports News, on the web, on the app and also across our social platforms. So if you don't already, give one-on-one from Sky Sports a follow so you don't miss an episode.

42:57Ath:That's one-on-one, a Sky Sports podcast.