Stephen Fleming exclusive: Taking on the England job, working with Joe Root & developing leaders

0:01Yeah, gone! Gone, he gets his fairytale ending! An epic way to go to a Test Match 100. The London Sphere, the first time win is the most remarkable thing you'll probably ever see in cricket. 604 and final Test wicket for Stuart Ball. It's India who win the T20 World Cup. Can you believe it? Moments after Stokes' international career is coming to an end. Another wicket for this incredible cricketer. Well, I'm delighted to welcome England's new test coach, Stephen Fleming, to this week's Sky Cricket podcast. We're recording before the final T20 International against Sri Lanka at Old Trafford. A very wet and miserable Old Trafford, which must bring back some memories of county cricket from back in the day.

0:52Welcome, first of all. Yeah, I wouldn't have it any other way, Athos. It's perfect. Thank you, mate. Nice to be here. Why now? Why were you compelled to take this job on? It's a little bit of timing and opportunity. It sort of presented itself at a time when I parted ways with Chennai, which had been my cricket home for 18 years. And everything is timing. The opportunity came up. I had to go through the process of, is it something that I wanted to do? And that was a yes. Was I the right person, which was out of my control? But once that was decided, it was pretty easy yes and excited. What in particular excites you then?

1:32I think the opportunity with this team. You look at coaches when you pick a team to be with or it picks you, you look at the talent that's around. And I think it's fair to say that there's the emergence of some pretty good talent, not just with the international scene, but even in the county scene, which I've been lucky enough to see over the last three or four days. So I think there are opportunities to do some really good things with this group. I'm a really big fan of Joe Root. I think he's a wonderful player and ambassador of the game. To work with him was really appealing. And to develop something with him around leadership and have him finish his career with a really strong sense of belonging and presence with a group of young men that represent England proudly.

2:14You mentioned you've been in the franchise world since retirement, really. It's almost 20 years now. is there a danger that you are a little bit out of touch as a result with Test cricket, with Red Bull cricket, and indeed with English cricket, which you had a long association with beforehand? Yeah, and I've noted some of that commentary, but my DNA is based on a long stint as captain. And our first, Athers, 97, when you walked out with me and my hand was shaking, I wasn't sure if I was going to be able to toss the coin, but you were very kind to me then. But my DNA was based on strategy, leadership, captaincy in the white clothing.

2:54And that's my passion. I'm a professional coach and I've been in the franchise world. But I've always followed Test cricket. I have a deep respect for English cricket from my time with Middlesex Yorkshire and in particular Nottinghamshire, which was really important days for me in my career and staying in love with the game. So, look, it's all there. I have absolutely no doubt, and I can't wait to get back into the longer form. I think it's the most wonderful form. The strategy and leadership involved, it's one of the only sports that's controlled from inside out, where most other sports are outside in.

3:30And I love that fact. So the work and the planning that goes along with that, and the man management that goes along with that over a five-day period, it's really unique, but I'm rapt to be back. You're taking over from Brenda McCollum, who's a good mate, and somebody you've worked with a lot. You'll have to work with him as well because he's still involved, obviously, in the white ball team. But looking at his tenure overall, what did you like and what did you dislike about Baz Ball? Well, I loved how they changed the game. It's such a powerful thing. If you can change a narrative in a sport, it's stand up and take notice.

4:05And they did that. Those first two years were exhilarating. Some of the cricket that was played, it was high-octane and it almost reflected Brendan's personality and Ben's to a degree. But the way they embraced that and they had the courage to deliver that was inspiring. And it made the rest of the cricketing world sit up and catch up. And one thing you challenge is the evolution of Baz Boy. I know he hates that, but the evolution of that style was what next. And to me, the opportunity is add a little bit of cricket smarts. The test game is hard. It doesn't keep delivering beautiful moments. you've got to grind out some real tough ones to have the good days.

4:45And that's, I think, possibly the style I'll try and bring, is that that cricket's smart. And I'll go back to the captain again. Joe Root, the ability to problem-solve and be the greatest batter in the world, sort of epitomises to me what a team should look like. So that's sort of what I've got in mind. Taking the best of those couple of years, that beautiful free-flowing positivity of a Harry Brook and others, and wrap it around with some smarts. and I think there's a really good cricket team here. I wondered what you thought about the way it all ended. You'll have had an eye on that series against New Zealand and the way England went down in the final two days of that series, which I felt was a little bit self-indulgent and self-defeating and indeed slightly tarnished Ben Stokes' legacy.

5:31He'd done so much good work as an England captain. What did you think looking on from a distance? It was a little chaotic. I think there was some decisions made there in the heat of the moment, maybe on reflection that would be a bit different. They're cricket decisions around how to chase and at the time they probably felt right, but it felt chaotic. And even listening to some of the New Zealand boys in the stump mic, it sort of summed it up, sort of what's going on here. So I think you're right, there was so much good during that time and I was a little bit disappointed, as you say, probably for Ben, that particular moment.

6:07But for the scenario itself, it was pretty damning. What are the likely pinch points? It's a split coaching arrangement, which hasn't always worked for England, but one understands with the schedule why it's perhaps necessary. But if you've got multi-format players like, say, Brook and Archer, who are going to be in demand across all three formats, how's that going to work between yourself and Brendan about who gets the key resource? Yeah, it's a nice challenge. there's a little bit of prioritising key times and tournaments and you look forward to the first challenges around the white ball team will be in Australia when we start to prepare for South Africa so managing that, the workloads as well, it's not just being there to be able to play, it's the workload so an archer for example, he needs to rest so making sure there's some sense around that but it will be about prioritising key moments as World Cup's coming up, the marquee events and we have had discussions about that and I guess the advantage of having a close relationship with Brendan is we can cut through the first date type scenarios with another coach and cut right to the core and there are going to have to be some tough decisions and even support staff like physios and more resources needed to be able to sustain these types of models so we're well aware of it at the moment the plan looks pretty good and I'm really comfortable that the team that will be in South Africa will be the best one.

7:36I know you a little bit and you seem quite relaxed in the way that you go about things which carries some similarities to Brendan who like to give players own ownership and was quite laissez-faire in some regards in his coaching style. How will you prevent that because you like to give players responsibility as well slipping into some of the ill discipline that we've seen in recent times? Well there's two parts to it really from the cricket side of it I do like to empower players to make decisions themselves. I know there's a lot of data and there's a huge amount of assistants wanting to come in and there are parts of it that are really good.

8:17But in essence, you're sending out young men to make decisions in front of 30, 40, 50, 100 ,000 people. So you want to make sure you're getting them to make good decisions from a cricket sense, but that also flows into how you represent whatever country it is and how you are perceived by people who want to look up to you and they want you to play the game in the right way. And that will come down to our identity. And that's something that Joe and I have talked about some length, is what will this team stand for, their belonging, why we're there and who we represent are really important. They're really important things to me when I was captain way back in the day and they're really important to Joe.

8:54So that is something that we want to be reflected in the dealings we have with the team initially and then something to grow. I've talked about the similarities with Brendan. I'm interested in perhaps the differences of style as well. I noted a quote from John Bracewell, who knows you both, and he said that Brendan's an opportunist, an optimist, and a gambler, the type of man who, when he sees a swimming pool, he dives in first without checking. And you're the type of guy who'll tiptoe up to the swimming pool, check the temperature, the depth of the water, and then take a dip. Is that a fair summation of the differences?

9:29It's not bad for braces. Yeah, that's probably an analogy, yeah. That's fair. Let's talk about Joe Rue. First of all, his appointment as captain, was that something you were heavily involved in? Did you rubber stamp it? Or had that decision been made by the time you arrived? No, it was a big part of it. I just feel, I just knew and know that he's the best guy to captain this side. And to me, he just epitomises everything that's great about an international player. He is greatness. but he's a wonderful human being and the way he conducts himself and can go about being great is something that everyone should admire and look up to and that to me is captaincy and leadership and look I can't wait to do strategy and planning and work but in essence he is such a great role model and such a perfect person for a young group of players to model themselves on, it was a no brainer to me.

10:27And he is now coming towards the last bit of his career. I don't know how long he's going to play for. Clearly, we hope he goes on for some time. But there were limited options around the leadership. Do you see it as part of your role in terms of succession planning that there is a stronger core of potential leaders within that group? 100 % Athers. Yeah, it's a great leader. I have a passion for leadership and trying to create environments out of years in the franchise would to be different. inclusive and trying to create something that's a little bit different than the other franchise that's around the corner.

11:03So I have a passion for leadership and I do have an ambitious goal around what can be achieved, not only at international level but even a little bit further and tapping into past players, which I really respect, and using that resource to grow leadership, which is so important. If you think how we select captains it's quite amateurish considering the the impact they have on our game careers the sport itself and I think we can do so much better at developing that and celebrating it and how in the past when you've worked with captains you had a long association with MS Dhoni for example do you see it that the captain's in charge and you're there to help Are you in charge?

11:54And, you know, putting the hard word on the captain, how do you see that relationship? No, he's in charge. Yeah, and I think, again, that's the beauty of our game. If he's going to go out there and make key decisions, then he is in charge. But my role is very closely linked to provide him what he needs, and that can be criticism constructively to work through. So it's not just a yes position. I want him to be the best he can be, and I think as captaincy there's still room to grow with this group. I don't necessarily know what that looks like, but I know there's growth and that's the exciting thing as the group starts to emerge and find itself a bit more.

12:32But Joe's the perfect guy for that. The leadership around Harry Brook is a young natural leader. Bethel looks young naturally. The more of these people that we can not necessarily get into programmes but introduce them to leadership, upskill them in that sense, There's no downside. If they don't captain, they're still going to be good leaders and better people. So that is 100 % a goal of mine. Where do you see the team at right now? You'll have watched them do well against Pakistan in that series. A lot of success under Brendan and Ben, but not quite able to get over the line against India and Australia in particular.

13:09How close is the team at this particular point in time to be able to challenge those best teams? Yeah, well, not easy. Those two teams are a couple of the world's best, but I feel they are tracking. And that last series watching was fascinating to see the emergence of the four-prong attack. Cox and Lawrence were excellent additions with Bethel still there. There was a lot to like. The other thing was the character they showed on testing conditions, and that's been one of the criticisms. It's been a little bit fear weather. But to show the application to problem solve and get through two wickets in particular that were very tough, I thought that showed some pretty good character.

13:49That's what I looked for. Winning the series was great. And they were tested at times, so there's a couple of areas that you can tidy up, which is good. So I got to look under the bonnet. But apart from that, I was really impressed. And presumably, having spent lots of time here in English cricket, you don't need any reminding about the importance of the Ashes to English supporters, and that's next summer coming. not far away, only what, nine tests maybe before the Ashes start. Yeah, and you also got to remember that New Zealanders like beating Australians as well. So that's a good place to start.

14:23But look, to me as a cricket lover, in part of my DNA to be involved in an Ashes is a dream really to come true. What an opportunity that I'm so privileged to now have. And that's how I see it. The vision of winning in Ashes is something I might have to suppress. the feelings might be different, but the desire to do it will be 100 % the same. Yeah, I have a picture in my mind what that can look like, and it's pretty good. Can I ask about the World Test Championship as well? It's something that England have never contested the final of. The final's always here in England. And when we've spoken to Ben occasionally, he has sounded quite prickly about the World Test Championship.

15:06England have complained about over-8s and the way it's structured. I mean, it's time surely for England to grasp that nettle and say this is an ambition of ours. Yeah, it is. And it's almost a reflection of if we do it right, you'll be close. So not just targeting it. To get there, you have to play and do the things right, beating Australia, beating South Africa to get there. So I'm really interested in, yeah, that is a goal, 100%, because it means that if we're competing for that, we've had pretty good seasons. I think the challenges around England's in the past, the itinerary, which can be tough they play more tests than anyone else where other teams can focus a little bit more on two match series and get points away so that's one of the things we have to address and make sure we're good for long periods of time but again, that will be a measure of our consistency and if we're getting it right that we should be there or thereabouts we've got to get through the overs some way we've got to speed the game up in general that's not just our responsibility I think it's the game's responsibility to do that.

16:05When you see county cricket at 16 overs an hour and the international game at about 12. So there needs to be a push for that. And that's part of the entertainment or challenges that the game in general face. But certainly the onus will be on us to start it. And final question, just a broader question about the health of Test cricket and international cricket. When Brendan came into the job, it was very much part of his remit. he felt, not to save test cricket, that would be a bit grandiose, but to offer up a team that provided attractive cricket in order for the game, an international game to thrive.

16:41Do you see that similarly? I do. There is a responsibility to entertain. You can get caught up in just winning matches and that is my job and that's the player's job to do that. The style in which you do that can be conducive to doing both. But the game itself, we'll come back to overrates. we do make things hard for ourselves at times so we've got to be a little bit smarter about policing the key things and making sure the entertainment value is high. You're asking big money for people to come and watch us play and we have a responsibility to repay that and it'll be good, tough test cricket but we have to be aware that there's an element of entertainment that we have to do as well but it's a balance.

17:24I think there's never been more cricket being played in the world at the moment and there's got to be a point and you probably know better than me that it's going to combust something's got to give but it won't be test cricket nice words to end on great to see you here and good luck with the team thanks mate

17:51hello i'm simon lazenby join me and a host of top guests on the f1 show after every round of the 2026 Formula One World Championship. Listen to our podcast on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts or watch us on the Sky Sports F1 YouTube channel. That's the F1 show from Sky Sports.

18:19Well, on the back of that interview with a new Test coach, Stephen Fleming, I'm delighted to say on this week's podcast, joined by a younger, better-looking and someone generally of a sunnier disposition than my normal co-podcaster, a big money transfer from the love of cricket. What did you... Where is Nass? What's he doing? Does he not come to Manchester? He doesn't like Manchester. He averaged about eight here, so he never comes if he can help. That's good for him. What did you make of the Stephen Fleming interview? Good. He's a good speaker, isn't he? I think what struck me was his love of leadership.

18:51Yeah. He talked a lot about leadership and strategy rather than really intricate coaching, didn't he? So I'm assuming that he will pass a lot of the technique coaching onto his batting coach and bowling coach, etc. Ultimately, what they're there for. But I think what excites me is him working with Joe Root's captaincy. I think Stephen Fleming was obviously a good captain, has worked a lot with MS Dhoni, has learned a lot about tactical stuff on the field, but how to manage changing rooms as well. and I think where Joe needs or would like a bit of help with his caps is taking a bit of weight off his shoulders at times allow him just to concentrate on his batting and make some tactical decisions and get feedback throughout the game to help England out because he hasn't got a bowling attack that naturally will feed back a lot of tactical advice and I think Joe needs a bit of that just to take the weight off his shoulders so I enjoyed listening to a lot of his quotes I think my favourite was New Zealanders like beating the Australians too which made me smile not perhaps quite as much as we do he had a good energy in his voice right, he seemed excited to do the job you didn't cross over you came to knots just after he finished but you'd have played with players who did play with him and highly regarded wasn't he down there at Trenbridge very much so, still is we chatted in my final year at Leicestershire I played against a Nottinghamshire Stephen Fleming then, and he talked about how good the club was, the culture, the pros and cons of a young bowler moving to somewhere like Trent Bridge.

20:32And then we didn't cross over actually with a Nottinghamshire shirt, but I played against New Zealand that winter in New Zealand where Tim Southie, young Tim Southie, made his debut. So, yeah, highly regarded, known as a brilliant leader, He's a very calm leader and taught the likes of Chris Reid and Paul Franks a lot about growing groups and cultures in changing rooms. So, yeah, he's known as, he's very, very fondly thought of in Nottinghamshire. Do you think it's a bit embarrassing for English cricket? I mean, Fleming, McCollum, Southie, Jeetan Patel. And we've got to get to a stage where there are a few more English options.

21:08Yes, absolutely. I was at Peppa Pig World yesterday. and I had a call from a message from Ian Bell because he'd heard some comments that I'd said about the lack of English coaches maybe making their way through the game and he actually said, I'm one. And he is. He's someone who's had a lot of opportunities in different franchises and he's taking that route of growing a lot of knowledge in the franchise world as assistant coach and batting coach to eventually, when he feels right, to step up in a head coach role. And he's probably a name that I didn't think of because he is doing different tournaments that maybe I haven't seen a huge amount of.

21:50But it's a new way of coaches trying to make it to the top level, actually. Instead of going to county cricket and doing a head coach's role for eight months, picking loads of information up from loads of different coaches to figure out exactly what you are going to be as a head coach. then you step into the right role as it comes but but I can only name a handful of coaches like Ian Bell or Jonathan Trott who who are doing that sort of of system to grow their their mindset and we need more of them. I took a couple of things from what he said as well he was very quick to knock back one of my earlier questions I said he'd been in franchise cricket for the last 18 years since retirement really he's not been around test cricket not been around red ball cricket or indeed English cricket.

22:35I asked him, is there a danger that he could be seen as out of touch? But I sensed that real enthusiasm for the Test game that clearly, even though he's been with Chennai and in the franchise world, he's very much kept an eye on what's happening in Test cricket. Yeah, I think ultimately if you love cricket, he loves playing the game, he loves studying the game and coaching the game. You love all formats of the game that he played. He made his name in Test match cricket. Yes, he's had success at Chennai. He's actually not won any trophies outside of MS Dhoni's Chennai, which is not a red flag. But, you know, I suppose if he goes and wins some trophies for England Test Team, then it's a good sign.

23:15But, you know, as a coach, you are very reliant on your captain. And he's had a very good one with MS Dhoni and maybe not quite clicked with other captains that he's tried to have success with. But the way he talked about Joe Root, I imagine he will click with him. I've got no doubts that he's watched the game. He knows the game. He's been around current players. He's got a group that it's exciting, but we've also lost a lot of cricket over the last 18 months with England. So he's got some moulding to do. I was also struck by how deliberate he was about saying the World Test Championship is an ambition.

23:55and it's something surely that England have got to grasp here. That's there. It's not the ashes, but it's in test match terms the equivalent of the ICC World Cups in 50 over and 20 over cricket. We've never contested the final. We're always whinging about over-8s and God knows what. We've got to grasp this nettle now, haven't we? I was listening to that with a bit of intrigue, of course, and the language will always be, yes, we want to try and make that final as an England test match team. but the reality of the same points value being based on a two test match series compared to a five test match series is very difficult because england play five away in india five away in australia three or four away in south africa so we have long tough test match series which makes it hard to accumulate the point system you think about south africa who won the test match Championship, World Championship last round, their actual route to the Test match final was relatively easy.

24:54In England, if they had the same fixtures, would have won it. So it's difficult. As players, yes, of course you'd love to compete in that, but you have to be realistic of how easy it is to do. And Australia would probably say, well, they've got exactly the same runs and they seem to do it. And finally, the last thing I took from it was a clear desire to build a greater number of leaders within the set-up. When he comes into this England team and Stokes steps down, they're two choices for captain. One, Harry Brook, you don't really want to give it in because he's captain in the other two formats.

25:25And the other guy, Joe Root, has already done it for four years. They've got to build a deeper culture of leadership within that team, surely. 100 % it's been a big problem for this team and you can see it on the field. Don't really mind about lack of leaders to choose as captain when you've got Joe Root. Harry Brooker's options, but the leaders on the field has been a stark problem. Stephen Fleming has noticed that, he'll focus on that, and he'll just drop bits of nuggets of information in consistently throughout to try and build leadership within this England team, because we need leaders to start winning Test Match Series.

25:56An upgrade on this week's Sky Cricket pod. You've got to go and you're busy this afternoon. We'll see you later. Thanks for coming.