Women's T20 World Cup: South Africa coming good, India v Australia and England's biggest challenge

0:01Welcome to the Sky Cricket Women's T20 World Cup podcast. I think I've got all the words there, maybe in the wrong order, but it's Tash and me again. When I say again, this is the second time we've done this. Last time, Mel Jones, this time the excellent, my script says excellent, Natalie Germanos. Natalie, how are you? Where are you? What games are you doing today? I mean, you have been so busy all around the country. Yeah, it has been busy. Thanks very much, Ness. I'm pretty sure you didn't write that script, but thank you very much. I do appreciate the intro. I'm in Bristol at the moment. It's nice and sunny.

0:35We had a big thunderstorm yesterday because it obviously just got too hot, but that's kind of what we're used to in Johannesburg. So for me, this is pretty normal. It's been busy, but the tournament's been great. There's been so many beautiful stories. There's been some close games. There's been some, obviously, there's been emotion. There's been some tears on the field, and it just tells you how much the games mean to these girls. and I think that just makes it even more special and just shows you how important it is. We're going to start with that game, South Africa against India, because that's where you want to start.

1:06And also because my WhatsApp to you was ready to go with like five India flags, because I know you give me some stick when the wheels are coming off England. What did you make of that performance from South Africa? I mean, it was a great game of cricket and two sides that know each other well, having played recently in a bilateral, what did you make of the South Africa performance? I think for me, it just shows the fight that South Africa have. And it got mentioned quite a few times how a lot of these World Cup games against India seem to go down to the wire. It is the first time they've played each other in the T20 World Cup, which just seems utterly crazy.

1:45But they've played in 50 World Cup games where it's just gone right down to the end. And South Africa actually in the last while have come out on the winning side in the last few 50-over World Cup matches against India. I think it just shows for me how strong they are in terms of their belief that they can actually beat these teams. But as a sort of a wider positive thing for me is that in the women's game, chases are happening more and more often and bigger chases are happening more and more often. And I think that has got far-reaching positive aspects for the game because so often in the past, you score 160, maybe above.

2:24You think, oh, well, team betting first is definitely going to win. But now you're starting to see the chases happening more and more. And for me, I think that's such a positive for the women's game. Tash, Maori Zan Cup, let's discuss. I mean, she is my favourite cricketer on the planet because she is such a clutch player. At 25 for two, you could not think of a better player to arrive at the crease in that moment. Basically, they lose that game. They're pretty much out of the tournament. So she is some cricketer, isn't she, under pressure in particular? Yeah, she is someone I've played with. And she is just the perfect person for those situations, isn't she?

2:59And she has been a bit short of runs. But actually, I think that's almost when she's at her most dangerous, to be honest. She's one of those players that just as there's a little bit of chat about her form, and then she delivers on the biggest stage. I mean, you can kind of tell when she's going to do well, because you can just see it in her eyes. She's so laser-focused. and actually I thought she did really well because Brits was going well, they had a nice partnership but I think at one stage they needed 100 off 60, so just to sort of reiterate what Nat just said even two years ago, if a team needed 100 off 60, you kind of counted them out, I know we've mentioned, I've mentioned a lot of the times, the pitches have just been so good in this World Cup and now you've got the power of the batting and so all of that coming together but you know I'm with you Nass I just love Marazane she she's just so steely and like you know she always does it with the ball and then you know when she does it with the bat it seems to always be in the highest pressure situation so it was it was a great watch I enjoyed not working on it actually and just sitting down and watching it unfold um yeah it was a pretty good game you have played with her what is she like as a person I mean I say she's my favorite cricketer she's also the cricketer that scares me the most.

4:16If she's another player of the match award and I have to go down and interview Marizan, I think I'd better get my questions right here. What is she like as a person? She's pretty quiet, actually, off the pitch and on the pitch. She doesn't sort of speak too much at all, really. But she's one of those people that when she does speak in a team meeting, everyone is gripped at pretty much every single word that she's saying. So she's pretty unassumable. But you just know as soon as you step over that boundary rope, that she is going to be on it. I remember in that first year, the 100, when I played with her and Shabnam Ishmael, I mean, that was like almost a dream come true.

4:55That is one of the moments in my career I will remember for a long period of time. Not the fact that they take four hours to bowl their overs and then I'm sort of running to the end of my mark every over that I'm bowling. But, yeah, no, she's pretty quiet and unassuming, but she's just so steely. And then when she does choose to speak, everyone is listening. So, yeah, she's a pretty cool character to have played with for sure. Yeah, it's interesting that you talk about that because recently she was asked about why don't you smile a little bit more? And she said, well, I'm not going to be smiling when I'm getting hit for fours and sixes.

5:32Why would any bowler do that? And she says she hates it when she sees bowlers smiling on field and they're getting hit for runs. She doesn't understand why anybody would actually be smiling. And by the way, she wasn't feeling well that day. She nearly didn't play. So she said she wasn't well the day before. She has had an illness to deal with through the year as well, which made her miss a lot of games. So she nearly didn't play that day, but it was the team doctor that helped her out a lot and made sure that she was on field for what obviously was a massive win for South Africa. Smiling is overrated.

6:04I have to be honest, fun is overrated. So what about resume? That's why you love the Nasser. Exactly, spot on. What about the resilience? I mean, we were there in Guwahati when England walloped them in the 50-over first game. Absolutely bowled them out for nothing, and there were real doubts about the South Africa side. A few weeks later, they're in the final. Same again, Australia walloped them at Manchester, and their bounce-back ability is there for everyone to see. There's some resilience in that side. Yeah, and you talk about the text that you have ready for me. I've had many from Nassau saying after the 69 all out and then after the Australian win as well.

6:40I think what it has done in the past, if you look back to 2022, South Africa had a lot of close wins in that World Cup as well. A lot of games that went down to the wire, Pakistan, England, games that maybe also at times that would have scared them, the Bangladesh game, even the opening game, they struggled a little bit in that. what it did for me is give them the belief that they can actually come through these games and belief in those situations is probably more important than actual skills it's just knowing we can do this as a team I think also having another batter score the runs is important for South Africa because in the recent series against India it was all Laura Vorfart and in the two wins South Africa have had in this World Cup she hasn't scored so that's good news for South Africa because before the World Cup, if she wasn't scoring, South Africa was losing.

7:28So there's quite a few takeaways to take from it. But I think the experience of having a Chloe try on there with Marazan Kapp was also really important. She did say to Marazan Kapp, don't worry, I'll be the one to hit. And Marazan Kapp said, nope, I'm going to be the one to hit because I'm just better when I'm hitting. Because in the beginning of her innings, she really was struggling to time it. And she said once she started hitting and actually going through with her shots, it made it a lot better for her. Just quickly, obviously, we know Ishmael's come back out of retirement, Dane's back in the side, which is great to see.

8:00We mentioned it with Mal on the last pod about how it's brilliant when players from countries that don't have the franchisees get picked up for other franchise leagues around the world. South Africa are pretty lucky a lot of their players in that XI have played all around the world. But what's coming through? How far off do you think we are on, obviously, the SA20, you work on that how far off are we getting something in place in South Africa which I personally feel is is the best way to grow a team's performance is actually making sure you have your own franchise league so how far off do you think we are off that?

8:38Well I actually think we're probably behind now and that that worries me a little bit in the sense of South Africa hosting the 23 World Cup having a packed out final at Newlands for me it was a great opportunity to even start exploring it there at least. And even if that means bringing in just two or three teams and just trying it out, feeling it out, something like they've done with the WCPO where they've now added another team. So they've gone with three initially and now they've got four. I would have preferred at least that than just saying, all right, let's wait it out a little bit. Because I think at the moment they're at a stage where they want to try and launch a big one, but then that would mean that they'd have to have a certain number of domestic players that are ready for that level.

9:22So it's a little bit worrying for me, actually, because is the window also closed? Because if they wanted to do it with the men's SA20, you've got the WPL at the same time. So that's now a little bit of a concern, too. So I think from finding a window, they're going to struggle. And then it's a situation of you need those internationals, obviously, to be in the country to be able to actually help out the domestic players. Well, a few years back, the domestic system went to a more professional system. And that has seen a step up for sure, but it's not where it needs to be if they're going to compete with a WBBL, for example, and even the WPL, which now you are seeing just phenomenal players coming out.

10:03So I feel like I don't know how far it is away, but I do feel we're actually behind at the moment. I would have liked to have seen them exploring it a little bit earlier personally. Tash, what did you make of India? I mean, we were there 50 over World Cup. They win it. Nat mentions WPL, fantastic cricketers coming through. What have you made of them? They had the bilateral series against England. What did you make of them the other night? Their bowling seems to be their weakest suit. Have I got that right? Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. I think they had it in the 50-year World Cup, didn't they, as well, where they kind of just went in with the five bowlers and then they used Shefali Verma, who has bowled pretty well, actually, since she has got the ball in her hand.

10:41I think she sort of loves bowling. So, yeah, she's been good. Yeah, the bowling worries me. the seamers. I think Aaron Dassey-Ready's got good change-ups and also Kranty Goud, but I think they're probably more, Kranty Goud in particular is more suited for that 50-over format at the moment. I would say Sri Chirani is so impressive. She pretty much never misses. She's very like Sophie Eckston, I think, sort of taller, never misses, gets good bounce. But I do think that they're really missing Amanjot Kaur in particular, that's sort of all-rounded to balance their side, just so they have an extra bowling option.

11:22But, you know, with the bat, they can score big runs, they can chase big runs. But, yeah, what's that cliche sort of, batters win your games but bowlers win your tournaments. So, yeah, that was always my worry for India, is that bowling side to things. You know, they've got a huge game coming up against Australia. I can't wait for that one. And, you know, they have big match players as well, So I wouldn't be surprised that they sort of bring out their best performance in that game when it counts. But yeah, the bowling worries me as well, Nasser. I'm going to use another cliche then. Catches win matches.

11:58And they put down three. They put down Marizan twice, I think. We did the games at the Hampshire Bowl. Going very ICC now with the Hampshire Bowl. And New Zealand's fielding. At one stage, Ian Smith just put his microphone down in complete disdain in the second game. A lot has improved in the women's game beyond recognition on and off the field. The one thing I'd say that hasn't improved is catching in the deep. We see some brilliant ones, obviously. Harleen Deol took one in the England series a couple of years ago, whatever. But catching in the deep, it's a generalization, hasn't, in my opinion, improved.

12:37Any reason for that at all? Question to both of you. Hard to pinpoint why. because we see them practicing a lot. I have a bit of empathy for the teams like Scotland. Scotland actually, apart from the last game, it can seem to have been good in the field, but Ireland, maybe even teams like Bangladesh, for example, they don't, when they play under lights, they don't do it often in comparison, if you're going to make a comparison with the men's game. So I think Ireland, that was the first game that they played under lights, was actually one of their first games that they played under the lights for a very long period of time speaking to Isabel Joyce so that would be my only sort of caveat for the lower rank side but for the for somewhere like New Zealand India you know that's not an excuse and I'm not quite sure because you watch the domestic sort of systems and domestic leagues that they've got and for some reason when it goes to a World Cup just sort of nerves pressure that's the only thing that I can put it down to you because you know I see these players practice and you know they're not putting down these chances in training so I don't know what you think now but I just think it's that level above and just trying to do it under pressure a bit more.

13:51I mean I agree with that so we're seeing better catches on the boundary at times now than we ever used to we saw Kavya Kovindy for Sri Lanka take that unbelievable catch the other day in Southampton where she had actually misfielded one just before that so that is a good sign but that's an one isolated incident and we're not seeing enough of obviously that sort of thing happening. My question would be to you, being former players, in the sense of what about boundary sizes and what effect that has? Like a WPL, for example, the boundary sizes are much smaller. So personally, I would like to see the WPL boundary sizes go a little bigger because of the fact that we are getting good pitches anyway.

14:27And that's just from just the whole game point of view. But if you are, as a domestic player, fielding mostly on smaller boundary sizes, does that affect your outfield catching when you go to bigger boundaries? I guess the only thing it would affect is you almost don't get that opportunity to take captives on the boundary as much just because they're sort of flying over your head. I mean, when I would say I fielded in the deep a lot, actually, I started as a terrible field and then I got pretty good, actually. But part of the reason was actually because I did my contact lenses for half of my career.

15:00So that wasn't ideal. Actually, it's just a confidence thing. like you take these I would never sort of realize you have to realize the angle that you're at and what sort of boundary size that you're fielding on you have to take responsibility for that but I wouldn't say that the size of the boundary would make a difference um I just felt it's if you're feeling confident on the day and say if someone else puts something down then that does affect sort of everyone's confidence a little bit um so yeah I don't know if I would put it down to the boundary sizes in only in the fact that actually if they are bigger boundaries you're probably We're going to get more opportunities to take the cats, whereas when they're small in the WPL, you sort of watch them over your head into the crowd pretty much every time.

15:42Interesting thing is I was lucky enough to work on the WBBL last year. And, you know, you know that the standard is going to be high at the WBBL because it's obviously been going on for so long. And we know the standard of Australia. But at the same time, there was a lot of drop catches within the season of WBBL last year, which surprised me because that's not taking away from the skills of players at the WBBL. They are phenomenal. The domestic players are amazing. You just see Lucy Hamilton coming through now and you know what's coming through. But there were more drop catches than I was expecting.

16:11And even Australia's percentage, the catching efficiency, whatever it is we call it, on the broadcast, has actually come down over the few years. And, you know, they are ones that also stick the standard. So is it that goals are hitting the ball harder now? Is it that there's more power within the game and it's not caught up yet? The fielding hasn't quite caught up. and even fielding drills for the women. Have they caught up yet for the women's game? I'm not sure. I hope that that might be the case because then it does eventually catch up, obviously, and it does get better. But, yeah, I was surprised to see the number of catches that were put down in the WBBL.

16:47Yeah, some excellent points there. Words I never thought I'd say about you two, to be honest. But, Tash, what do you make? That makes that group of death, the India-Australia game at Lourdes on Sunday. Now, India did go to Australia and beat them in a bilateral series. Do you think India can beat Australia in a World Cup T20, the way Australia are playing, the way India are playing? Yeah, I do think they can beat them. You know, it's going to be difficult. What I would say is they've had that close game against South Africa, whereas Australia have cruised through. They have looked very good. Obviously, they had that big win against South Africa early, but they haven't sort of been put under pressure yet.

17:29and India have. I know they came off on the wrong side of that. I mean, we've spoken about this with England, haven't we, where they've sort of cruised through group stages and when they are put under the pressure, then they have slightly faltered. Australia typically don't do that, although in the last couple of World Cups, they have. So, yeah, I think India can definitely beat Australia. They're going to have to be at the very top of their game. And, you know, the Lord's pitch, you know, will that sort of aid Australia's spinners? I think they've probably got a better bowling attack for those conditions at Lords.

18:04But yeah, I think it's pretty open. I think Australia will just be favourites going into that game. But I just feel that India also have big match players, big match batters in particular.

18:21Hi there, I'm Pete Graves. And while you're enjoying this show, I just wanted to let you know that we are back with another round of Transfer Talk. where we'll be talking about who's on the move, where they're going, what they could bring to your team. So if you don't already, please like and subscribe. You can watch 3Sky TV on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. See you soon.

18:49Let's turn our attention to England now. Next game, we're doing it tomorrow night. Where's that? It's at Lords, isn't it? England, West Indies. Matt where are the two sides compared to talking of drop catches we were all there in Dubai when England were shelling catches and Heather Knight was off the field and West Indies knocked England out in a group stage game where are the two sides now compared to that night and how do you see tomorrow night going yeah it's interesting because I think I watched the bilateral series for England coming in both against New Zealand and India and I thought Looking at their fielding in particular, there's certainly an improvement and you can see the work that Charlotte Edwards has put in, but is it where it needs to be and where they would probably want to be?

19:37I'm not too sure. Because when they were put under pressure, there were still mistakes made and they haven't quite been put under pressure in this World Cup just yet. So I feel like when they come up against a strong side and a side like the West Indies who have got some power hitters as well that could possibly put them under pressure, it might be interesting to sort of watch how it all plays out. I think the West Indies, it's just amazing how they've gotten to this point for me because coming into the World Cup, you're looking at them and you're going, are they going to struggle in this group?

20:06Nobody was saying that this was a group that was going to have all the questions asked of. It was really about the other group that was the group of death. But you look at this group and now all of a sudden things are blown wide open because of what has happened with New Zealand. We saw Scotland doing well against the West Indies themselves and actually probably could have won that game with a bit more experience. And so the West Indies, for me, how they've brought this together is quite phenomenal, actually. They've done it that sort of almost on a wing and a prayer, if it feels like, kind of thing.

20:35It's amazing how they've done it. And absolute respect to them and credit to them as well to be able to do that. And it has to go down to a lot of the leadership from Hayley Matthews, who's just a phenomenal player. Obviously, all around, she's contributed to the team over the years. She's been excellent with the ball in this tournament. And she's a big part of their success. So for me, England is a team that they clearly have answered a lot of questions since 24. Whether or not the batting lineup is quite 100 % where it should be, I don't know that we know that 100%. I think they've got wonderful hitters down the order.

21:08But I don't think they feel things being put under pressure enough. And I think the West Indies, again, are just that side who can beat anyone on their day. Yeah, and on that, obviously Hayley Matthews is an incredible leader. Actually, I've worked with Shane Dietz, their head coach as well. And when he got appointed, I felt sort of quite happy for the West Indies, actually, because I know that he's someone who's very attacking, who's got a very attacking mindset, and that's just what the West Indies need. You know, that is their super straight, their power, their power hitting, sort of charging around the field.

21:42Their bowling, I think, is their weakest suit, a bit like India, their seamers. But Aliyah Lane has sort of stepped up into that role, So she's been sort of a big part of their success so far in this tournament. But yeah, he's an excellent coach. He's very positive and he's very attacking. And I think that's the perfect combination for this West Indies side for sure. I mean, Nass, I know you were working on the test, but what do you think of that batting order for England? Danny Gibson, Freya Kemp scored 59 off the last three overs. I feel like the batting order at the moment is, even without Nat Siverbrun, Sophia Duncan came and did really well, didn't she?

22:20I feel that the batting line-up's looking pretty strong. What do you think? It is, but it's the unknown quantity, isn't it, about a big semi-final or something. That's why I think it's important to try and top tomorrow. It's two unbeaten sides, try and top the group, maybe hopefully avoid Australia. You're going to have to beat some on South Africa or India anyway, but it's just the unknown quantity about this particular England side is that when that bar is raised, can those two all-rounders do it when Alana King is spinning it both ways? And sometimes Danny Gibson doesn't pick the googly or whatever, but they can only play against what they've put up against.

22:58And they've had both had now, I mean, on the back of Danny Gibson getting a fabulous 100 contract, all the pressure was on her. And everyone was like, oh, okay, why? And now you're seeing why. And Freya Kemp, when Charlotte Edwards has backed her for so long, some might have said, why? And now you're seeing why. So they are producing what everyone or the ones in the know thought they could do. So it does. You must have been pleased for Dunks. I mean, you two are inseparable. Every time I turn up the ground, you should be in the comm box doing something or a news cross. And you're having a little chat with Sophia Dunkley somewhere.

23:31I mean, not easy to come in. Nat Siverbrunt as well to come in and play the way she did. Yeah, no, there's my one dig for the day. Thanks, Nasa. um um yeah you know I am very good friends with um I find it weird calling her Sophia Dunks I'm gonna call her Dunks I'm very good friends with Dunks and you know anyone would know that she would have been so disappointed to just be left up just before a home world cup that that's got to be sort of the toughest drop to take isn't it um but you know she's a good team person and even though you're feeling disappointed I've spent a lot of time on the bench but you have to get yourself up when you're around the team and I know she would have done that and you know she's been able to get herself in a place that she was ready enough to when she got the call up and you know she probably would have been thinking she may have got a game because I think probably England were thinking that Nat wouldn't play all of the group games even if that calf had held up just to give her a couple of days off so she would have known that and you know she was ready for it I could actually see the emotion in her when she got to her half century she sort of flailed her back and not that she was holding about the tears but you could see the sort of relief and the emotion so she did so well because when you are in and out the side you know it's it's much easier to perform when you know you're a set in the 11 whereas if you're in and out and you're sort of on the periphery it is a hard place because you know that you kind of sometimes only have one or two opportunities and she'll know that and she took it so yeah no I was um it was very I'm not going to claim it but we had a few nice chats before before that all down to your batting coaching then um what have you any whispers about that Siverbrunt again you've got mates in that dress you know they is are they concerns about her because you know to win a semi-final final you feel they need her batting out for two games they say the second one coming up what's the whispers about her calf?

25:32I haven't heard too much. I've just heard what they've sort of said about the two games. I wouldn't be, if they do win this game tomorrow against the West Indies, I wouldn't be surprised if she misses that last game against New Zealand just to make sure they have her back for the semifinals. We spoke about it before, didn't we, Nasser, about how, you know, she is someone that even without game time, she's able to perform. She did that at the start of the tournament. So, yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. England are in a pretty good position. If they do win the next game against the West Indies, they should probably give her another game off and get her right for the semi-final.

26:09I think if there's any chance of her being at all fit, she's going to play those big match games. She's not going to want to miss those semis and finals if they get there. But that's all I know. Can we talk death bowling to both of you earlier? Lauren Bell, I think she's ICC Player of the Month, was announced yesterday, Women's Player of the Month. She hasn't quite got it right, the death. She's bowling a lot of slow balls. I think she's overdoing the slow balls and batters are just waiting for it now. A, do you agree with that? And should she be mixing out more? B, is she the right person? And also, who do we think, if it gets down to a semi or a final and you have to nail your skills at the end, which side have the best death bowlers?